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I think Obama's really screwed up with this FISA vote. He looks like a weasel.
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Wed, July 9, 2008 - 6:38 PMNote that I'd still vote for him over McCain in a swing state. -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Wed, July 9, 2008 - 7:17 PMI just wrote to Senator Obama.......( not expecting that HE reads my mail.....no senator does).......
But fuck him ( AND hillary.....who would have voted the same way as obama did ,IF she would have been the nominee).
anyway.....i will vote for obama.....but this will be the last time around I will vote for any goper or dem.......or nader.
so .....anyone out there who is anything but a dem/goper........work your way up.........don't be a 3rd party community leader and aim for the highest office...........become a State Senator/Legislator............move up to a US Senator/Legislator.........AND run for the presidency.
Sadly...by the time that person went through all the steps......they are as corrupt as the rest.
FUCK YOU MCCAINE, BUSH, OBAMA, HILLARY ....AND ALL THE REST OF THE GOP/DEMS......
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Unsu...
Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Wed, July 9, 2008 - 7:33 PM
<<FUCK YOU MCCAINE, BUSH, OBAMA, HILLARY ....AND ALL THE REST OF THE GOP/DEMS......>>
Obama and Clinton *DO NOT EQUAL* Bush and McCain.
yes, Obama and Clinton suck, but they don't suck nearly as bad as Bush and McCain.
(and btw, i still believe that Clinton doesn't suck as bad as Obama, at least i know what to expect from her. centrist and opportunist? yes. GOP Trojan Horse? no.)
unless you have some sort of an apocalyptic vision and/or want to accelerate the collapse of the system....
Democrats do not equal Republicans (although they continue to merge closer and closer together.
which is why i'm voting 3d party - which i would NOT do if i lived in a swing state.)
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Wed, July 9, 2008 - 8:37 PM
I will still be voting Obama, but not with the same smile i had planned on. So much for putting any ounce of faith in any of the pieces of shit. Obama or Clinton will be much better then Mccain or Bush, but its still a lesser of two evils.... -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Wed, July 9, 2008 - 9:08 PM
If Obama doesn't stand firm on terrorism, Karl Rove's proteges will rip him apart as being "Soft On Terrorism", and he will lose.
You think McCain is going to be easy to beat, but the fight has not even started yet. Obama's campaign beat out Clinton, everything he is doing now is carefully calculated to win the White House. Let them run their game, they know what they are doing.
Sorry, its just what it is going to take. Price I am willing to pay to make sure another Republican is not in the oval office. There are bigger issues than FISA at stake.
-troy -
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Unsu...
Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Wed, July 9, 2008 - 9:14 PM
continue to be an apologist and (perhaps unwilling and clueless, but that still does not EXCUSE you) bush enabler, Troy.
Just to get a flavor for how fundamental a reversal is Obama's FISA position, here is what Obama said back in February when accepting Chris Dodd's endorsement:
QUOTE:
We know it's time to time to restore our Constitution and the rule of law. This is an issue that was at the heart of Senator Dodd's candidacy, and I share his passion for restoring the balance between the security we demand and the civil liberties that we cherish.
The American people must be able to trust that their president values principle over politics, and justice over unchecked power. I've been proud to stand with Senator Dodd in his fight against retroactive immunity for the telecommunications industry. Secrecy and special interests must not trump accountability. We must show our citizens -- and set an example to the world -- that laws cannot be ignored when it is inconvenient. Because in America –- no one is above the law.
END QUOTE.
Here is what he said back in January:
QUOTE:
Ever since 9/11, this Administration has put forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we demand.
The FISA court works. The separation of power works. We can trace, track down and take out terrorists while ensuring that our actions are subject to vigorous oversight, and do not undermine the very laws and freedom that we are fighting to defend.
No one should get a free pass to violate the basic civil liberties of the American people -- not the President of the United States, and not the telecommunications companies that fell in line with his warrantless surveillance program. We have to make clear the lines that cannot be crossed. . . .
A grassroots movement of Americans has pushed this issue to the forefront. You have come together across this country. You have called upon our leaders to adhere to the Constitution. You have sent a message to the halls of power that the American people will not permit the abuse of power -- and demanded that we reclaim our core values by restoring the rule of law.
It's time for Washington to hear your voices, and to act. I share your commitment to this cause, and will stand with you in the fights to come.
END QUOTE.
www.salon.com/opinion/gre...a/index.html
and what about his vow last October to "support a filibuster of any bill that includes retroactive immunity for telecommunications companies"?
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 10:03 AM>>Obama or Clinton will be much better then Mccain or Bush, but its still a lesser of two evils....<<
It's an illusion.
The more you convince yourself that you're faced with an either/or vote, the more firmly you're trapped in a false dualism struck between evils that strain to each appear "lesser" on some or other pointless "issue".
If you vote Democrat or Republican - you truly are throwing your vote away. All the "swing state" talk is just more of the same falseness, the same mind control crap that advertisers have trained you to respond to.
Break the leash. Do what it takes. Don't pay in, don't give in, don't toe the line, don't let yourself be fooled into thinking it's a binary of "evil" v "somewhat less evil". Stop hitting yourself. Don't let people shame you into voting for evil - don't mistake "the weaker of two evils" for "good". Only good is good. Evil is always bad. That's why they call it that.
Lying is evil - especially when rulers do it. Disempower them. Stop lavishing rulers with prestige. Disengage from the corporate monolith.
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Wed, July 9, 2008 - 8:45 PMinna...thats is why i said ...3rd. parties got to get their shit together and not to be mediocre...so far they were.
semi hearted to their cause.......and LAZY.
As soon they get serious.....i will cast a vote for them.
i am living in a state which is and will be an obama state.
i would vote for an 3rd party candidate......
but who is out there?
Nader?......he is a fucking prima donna
Bob Barr.....WHOOOOOO ( Scooby Doo Moment.)).
Anyone else.......?...if yes.....I nor 99% of voters heard of that person.
McCain is not an option for me at all........still think hillary was and is an calculating, cold hearted w...re.
obama was never my first pick.....and he disappoints me day by day......same as hillary....calculating and a w..re. -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 4:09 PM>> As soon they get serious.....i will cast a vote for them. <<
what a bullshit self-fulfilling prophecy this is. elect a libertarian, green or anyone outside the two party system and you'll send a message. they are serious. it's just that people like you get all pissed off and self-righteous and then go along with the program. it's a joke.
put up or shut up. all this empty whining is good for absolutely nothing.
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Wed, July 9, 2008 - 11:31 PM"unless you have some sort of an apocalyptic vision and/or want to accelerate the collapse of the system.... "
I sort of think that this is happening anyway....We are on a crash course headed for disaster...and that disaster isnt coming about because the system is collapsing, its coming about because of business as usual taken to its logical conclusion (Environmental destruction, economic hierarchy, increase in police state powers, and global war over diminishing resources). Its already happening under Republicans and Dems alike, and its not the Anarchists who are to blame for it all. Its the Republicrats.
Im certainly not voting for the guy who sings about bombing people though.
I have to say though....as much as the situation sucks I see people waking up all around me...that puts a smile on my face despite all the grief.
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Unsu...
Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Wed, July 9, 2008 - 9:45 PM>>>>anyway.....i will vote for obama.....but this will be the last time around I will vote for any goper or dem.......or nader.<<<<
They knew you were gonna give that answer, they just did'nt count on it> they bet the white-house on it. The funny thing is, it does'nt even really matter who gets in concedering our options, the game is fixed.
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 2:51 AM<But fuck him ( AND hillary.....who would have voted the same way as obama did ,IF she would have been the nominee). >
Don't pretend to know what she would have done. That's ridiculous.
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 7:11 AM>> Don't pretend to know what she would have done. That's ridiculous. <<
It's necessary for them to pretend like that. Otherwise their heads would explode.
Besides, the more gradually they realize the truth, the more fun it is to watch them squirm. It should be savored - I sure as hell am savoring it. -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 7:51 AM>> Don't pretend to know what she would have done. That's ridiculous. <<
"It's necessary for them to pretend like that. Otherwise their heads would explode.
Besides, the more gradually they realize the truth, the more fun it is to watch them squirm. It should be savored - I sure as hell am savoring it."
Who needs to pretend? Clinton's track record of pandering to the far right when it suits her needs is well documented. She would gladly trade fisa for a little support for her healthcare programs. Thats how she worked in the senate before she ran for president and I suspect it wouldnt have been much different if she was the nominee. -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 8:05 AM>> Who needs to pretend? Clinton's track record of pandering to the far right when it suits her needs is well documented. She would gladly trade fisa for a little support for her healthcare programs. Thats how she worked in the senate before she ran for president and I suspect it wouldnt have been much different if she was the nominee. <<
Clinton has a very consistent record with respect to the various proposed FISA bills. You are comforting yourself with lies. -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 8:08 AMObama was consistent until he completely caved. -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 9:08 AM<Obama was consistent until he completely caved.>
but you'll still vote for him. do you have any standards or morals? don't answer--i already know the answer. unbelievable. -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 9:15 AMGet a freakin' clue, Seth. I'm NOT VOTING FOR OBAMA. I have stated such to you quite a few times now. Let it sink in so that I don't have to repeat myself to you yet again in a couple of weeks. -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 11:49 AMStickgirl,
you should reconsider the prophet barry hussein as your guru--dude, use your own mind--don't be whipped into the fake "change", 'hope" and 'i'm a new kind' of politician.
he's a total fraud stick.
oh, and you like he gray hair now? yeah, the prophet's got white hair. all of a sudden --to make him look more experienced. these phony motherfuckers--and all you lefty's buy it up! unreal. -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 11:55 AMYou are dense.
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 9:50 PM<Stickgirl>
what is the point? did the CAPSFREAKYOUOUT?
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 9:53 PMboth clinton and bush both got significantly grayer as they campaigned and then while they were president. -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 10:03 PM<both clinton and bush both got significantly grayer as they campaigned and then while they were president.>
this is a complete lie: obama --one of the most cynical people i've seen, including his campaign staff --planted white in his hair, just as he strted to become a republican. he is a completel phony. this is AFTER he had his own presidential seal made. and BEFORE he decided to lend homself to 76,000 people for his convention address --how kind of him that he will bestow his greatness of all those extra people.
this guy is a grade A fake. why can't you see it? the new gray hair alone looks like a bad hollywood job, i swear. unbelievebale, the hubris. the unwarranted hubris. -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 10:17 PMcan you prove to me it's a lie?
are you saying that bush is not significantly grayer after 8 years in office?
are you saying the clinton was not significantly grayer after 8 years in office?
are you saying that i'm a liar?
kidshealth.org/kid/grownu...y_hair.html
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 12:21 PMdo you really not see the difference in the amount of gray hair bush had in 2000 and then today. are you willfully ignorant or does that just come naturally to you? -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Sat, July 12, 2008 - 9:25 AM<do you really not see the difference in the amount of gray hair bush had in 2000 and then today. are you willfully ignorant or does that just come naturally to you?>
now who is being willfully ignornant: next time the prophet is on TV, look at his hair --white spots in it --not to mch, not to little--all meant (by the cynical bastards that run his campaign, and he is one too) to give the skinny, kid-looking Prophet, some sense (any sense!) of gravitas, since his back and forth policies don
t have any.
they are coloring his hair and it's looking cartoon-like, like that ridiculous, new "presidential seal" (the hubris!) did.
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Mon, July 14, 2008 - 12:46 PMif the iraqi parliament voted tomorrow for the withdrawal of us troops and diplomats, would you support or oppose such a measure?
how free should the iraqis be? should the united states listen to their parliament if they want us out?
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 5:43 PM<Who needs to pretend? Clinton's track record of pandering to the far right when it suits her needs is well documented.>
That does not mean that you KNOW that she'd have voted for the bill if she was the front-runner. You don't know what she'd have done, so why pretend that you do?
<2) if a "D" were in the white house, saddam hussein would be in power. happy about that?>
Yes. I'd rather have Hussein in power than a trillion dollar debt and over 4K Americans killed with another few tends of thousand damaged... Yes - unequivocally.
<Get a freakin' clue, Seth. I'm NOT VOTING FOR OBAMA.>
Yes, get that through your head!!!!!! He'd rather have a republican in office!!!!!!! Geez. Get it straight, will ya'? -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 7:11 PM<Yes. I'd rather have Hussein in power than... > (fill in the blanks)
it's there for all to see. -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 9:56 PMwhat immediate threat for cause of invasion did saddam hussein pose to the united states? -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 10:07 PM<what immediate threat for cause of invasion did saddam hussein pose to the united states?>
ill clinton, al gore, the mossad, MI5, frnch, german and russian intel, our president, sec. of defense/state and CVP thought he had wmd --as did the UN and 30 democrats, who saw the same exact intel as the president did.
After '9/11', a man who had a history of gassing tens of thousands, made war in the mid-east, and was thought to be reconstituing his nukes --AND, helped fund hamas suicide bombers and had met with zarqawi, COULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO BE IN POWER.
but, the left conveniently FORGETS what 9/11 was. it thinks americas belligerence caused it , of course. not.
saddam had to go if he had a firecracker. now, 23 million free iraqis are an inspiration to hundreds of millions of other arabs or muslims that live under the thumb of fascistic 'leaders'.
that
s why saddam had to go. -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 10:22 PMa lot of countries have wmd's. tell me how that justifies an invasion.
so now, by virtue of the invasion:
85,862 – 93,672 iraqi civilians dead
www.iraqbodycount.org/database/
U.S. Confirmed Deaths
Reported Deaths: 4118
Confirmed Deaths: 4116
Pending Confirmation: 2
icasualties.org/oif/
good thing the invasion saved those tens of thousands of lives. at least now we can say that their blood is on our hands.
i think 9/11 was a failure in american security.
maybe if saddam had a firecracker, he'd blow his fingers off.
how free do you want iraqis to be seth? let me pose a question:
if the iraqi parliament voted tomorrow for an IMMEDIATE removal of united states troops, would you oppose or support that measure? -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 7:46 AM<i think 9/11 was a failure in american security. >
well, until they invent a number less than 0 (as in zero attacks on america since 9/11), you're wrong. -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 11:45 AMwhat? that makes no sense at all, seth.
can you refute my other points or are you just going to continue to be a political hack who retreads the same old arguments over and over again without defending them?
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 11:47 AMquestion time seth:
if the iraqi parliament voted today or tomorrow or any day in the future for the IMMEDIATE withdrawal of united states troops from iraq, would you support that measure?
how free do you want the iraqis to be? -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 11:52 AM"if the iraqi parliament voted today or tomorrow or any day in the future for the IMMEDIATE withdrawal of united states troops from iraq, would you support that measure?"
Question, Gerbil: Do you think immediate withdraw should include all American personal, including diplomatic staff? -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 12:09 PMif those are the terms of the measure the iraqi parliament votes for, then yes i would.
however, i do not support an immediate withdrawal.
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 10:26 PMthinkprogress.org/2008/06/0...arliament/
Iraqi Parliamentarian: 70 Percent Of Iraqis Want Withdrawal, Huge U.S. Embassy Not A ‘Positive Signal’»
Today, the House held a hearing featuring two members of the Iraqi Parliament in order “to hear their assessment of the proposed U.S.-Iraq Security Agreement,” an agreement proposed by the Bush administration permitting combat forces in Iraq for an unspecified period of time. Iraq is currently seeing “growing and widespread protests…over the scope of the agreement.”
In the hearing, parliamentarians Nadeem Al-Jaberi and Khalaf Al-Ulayyan expressed their support for a timetable for withdrawal of U.S. troops. In an exchange with Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX), Al-Jaberi said that U.S. presence in Iraq is highly unpopular with the public, as roughly 70 percent of Iraqis favor a withdrawal:
PAUL: What percent of the Iraqi people would agree with us leaving under those circumstances?
AL-JABERI: I ask you to perhaps have a referendum, and that will tell you the truth.
PAUL: So you have no idea. You have no idea. Maybe only 5 percent would support us leaving. You have to have an idea.
AL-JABERI: Of course not. The majority of the people of Iraq are with the withdrawal. … Perhaps even about 70 percent.
Watch it:
Given the Iraqis’ opposition to U.S. forces, Paul asked how the public perceives the 104-acre, $700 million U.S. embassy in Baghdad, which consists of 27 buildings and 3,000 employees. Jaberi ripped its massive scale:
AL-JABERI: It is certainly larger than the diplomatic mission for which it has arrived for. … I mean why do we need 3,000 employees in an embassy in Iraq if we consider it as a diplomatic mission like any other diplomatic mission? From the principle of reciprocity, would it be appropriate for Iraqis to establish a 3,000 employee embassy in Washington? … It [the embassy] certainly would not be a very positive signal to the Iraqi people.
Al-Jaberi also criticized the enclosed nature of embassy activities, which sits in the heavily-fortified Green Zone: “And yes, there is some procrastination in its relationship with the society, because its relations are limited to the Green Zone.”
UpdateSpencer Ackerman notes that al-Ulayyan, when asked about the invasion of Iraq, remarked: "I would prefer if it didn't happen, because it led to the destruction of the country. The U.S. got rid of one person. It put in hundreds of persons that are worse than Saddam Hussein. Unfortunately, now Iran is going into Iraq, and this is under the umbrella of the United States."
UpdateRep. Bill Delahunt (D-MA) also released a letter today from 31 Iraqi legislators "asserting that the proposed [long-term security] agreement is opposed by a majority of the parliament if it does not include a specific timetable for the withdrawal of U.S. military troops."
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 11:55 AMSo what of all the other insane dictators killing their own right now? Particularly in Africa? Not a finger, not a word. Know why? They don't have oil, and they don't have nukes, so who cares if the darkies kill each other, right Sethburger? Bull crapola. Iraq was on the radar from day one in OFFICE, read the memos. -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 12:13 PMYou have to look into the fact that the UN blocks many attempts to deal with such people. Hell, it took three years for the UN to just come to the conclusion that Darfur was a problem
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 12:37 PM*************** what immediate threat for cause of invasion did saddam hussein pose to the united states? ************
Intelligence reported that he was looking to buy a boat.
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 9:55 PM<Yes, get that through your head!!!!!! He'd rather have a republican in office!!!!!!! Geez. Get it straight, will ya'?>
that assumes you know the true motivations of someone not voting for mccain or voting for obama.
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 4:06 PM>> anyway.....i will vote for obama.....but this will be the last time around I will vote for any goper or dem.......or nader. <<
could you explain the contradiction between dislike for the two party system and your rejection of third party candidates?
if you're unhappy with the system then protest. vote for someone outside of the system. Barr and Nader both offer that opportunity to progressives and conservatives that don't feel represented. what good is it to get all pissed off and still go along with the program? -
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Unsu...
Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 6:46 PM
<<if you're unhappy with the system then protest. vote for someone outside of the system. Barr and Nader both offer that opportunity to progressives and conservatives that don't feel represented. what good is it to get all pissed off and still go along with the program?>>
agreed.
but.... why did you bring up Nader? he's not going to get the Green nomination. it's most likely going to be McKinney - which i'm very excited about btw. i know conservatives hate her guts and smear her at any opportunity, but.... that makes me even MORE excited about voting for her. not that she has a snowball chance in hell of course, but..... i'm not going to effectively WASTE my vote on Obama - since my state is going to vote for him anyway.
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 6:55 PM" i know conservatives hate her guts and smear her at any opportunity, but.... that makes me even MORE excited about voting for her."
Though i respect some of her work, her career will always be over-shadowed by her constant knee-jerk accusations of racism. Thus, the only thing that has smeared McKinney has been her own behavior
PS what makes you such a fan? -
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Unsu...
Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 7:01 PM
<<PS what makes you such a fan?>>
oh. she has ovaries. -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 7:06 PM"oh. she has ovaries. "
Inna, I am asking you an honest question, if you don't want to answer it, fine, just don't be insulting -
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Unsu...
Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 7:12 PM
hmm.... what's "insulting" about having ovaries?? -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 7:32 PM
<what's "insulting" about having ovaries?>
or are you *that* misogynistic??
jk. in fact, i have to admit that the first time i heard that i was supposedly "voting with my ovaries" (from a member of this glorious board, too), i was both amused and offended. and thought that was incredibly misogynistic and ignorant, too.
but to answer your question, the reason why i'll happily vote for Cynthia is that... my state is going to vote Democratic no matter what i do.
Obama does not need my vote - so why am i "expected" to vote for him (while holding my nose) and effectively waste my vote??
if 10% of my state votes 3d party (unlikely, but not impossible), it WILL send a message to the "system" (however little that might be worth, but certainly better than wasting my vote on Obama a priori).
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 7:43 PMthen why not research the other candidates and vote for one who you actually like? -
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Unsu...
Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 7:47 PM
<<why not research the other candidates>>
you ARE a hoot, Dustin.
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Unsu...
Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 7:52 PM
<<then why not research the other candidates and vote for one who you actually like?>>
and i actually like her. -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 8:20 PM"and i actually like her. "
Well, when I asked that earlier, you pretty much said you were voting for her because you didn't want to vote for Obama. So I'll ask again, as a candidate, what do you find attractive about Cynthia McKinney ? -
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Unsu...
Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 12:36 AM
<<For straight language and unambiguously progressive politics, support Cynthia McKinney, who is expected to win the Green Party presidential nomination, this week in Chicago. There is little chance that the courageous former congresswoman from Georgia will win the White House, but she won't lie to you, and from her truly progressive campaign a real "movement" may grow.>>
(do i get a Vulcanic pinch for honestly answering your "honest question"??) -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 10:25 AMI like Cynthia! She's a bit crazy, for sure, but she's all right by me. We know her real well down here in Bible land as a tireless advocate for *people* - she's no stooge, that you can count on.
Shit; I'm with you, ,now, inna:
Cynthia for Pres!!! Stick that in your "historic" and smoke it, fuckers!
Cornel!!! Dude! Come on! JOIN US
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 7:03 PM>> why did you bring up Nader? <<
because he is running for president.
>> he's not going to get the Green nomination. <<
he isn't going to get the libertarian nomination either. so what? he represents a third party.
and my position is that the candidates aren't all that bad this year. I'll be voting Republican. and if Obama wins (which he most likely will) it won't be the end of the world. you'll just see the same phenomenon with the Democrats as the Republicans. because parties that come to power inevitably put more effort into consolidating that power than running the country and the pendulum will swing the other way.
but I'm also not whining about the failure of the system. if the rhetoric truly represents how people feel then vote for a third party... or shut the hell up. -
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Unsu...
Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 7:11 PM
<<because he is running for president.>>
i don't think he's going to be on the ballot unless he wins the nomination. please correct me if i'm wrong. -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 7:18 PM>> i don't think he's going to be on the ballot unless he wins the nomination. please correct me if i'm wrong. <<
as far as I know, he only participated in the Green party debates and is running as an independent. and yes, he'll probably be kept off the ballot. that seems to be the Democrat's strategy for getting around their "every vote should count" rhetoric. -
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Unsu...
Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 7:45 PM
<<he only participated in the Green party debates and is running as an independent.>>
oh, he tried, he TRIED... (to get the Green nomination.)
www.gp.org/2008-electio...ote-Count.php
2008 Green Party Presidential Nomination Delegate Count
The current vote totals are:
Ball (11); Brown (9); Hawkins (8); Johnson (27); McKinney (304.5); Mesplay (29.5); Nader (139); NOTA (10); Swift (24); Uncommitted (40)
419 votes are needed to win the nomination
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 2:51 AM<if you're unhappy with the system then protest. vote for someone outside of the system. Barr and Nader both offer that opportunity to progressives and conservatives that don't feel represented. what good is it to get all pissed off and still go along with the program?>
<<agreed.>>
Disagreed. That's nonsense. There's NOTHING that Barr or Nader can do in and of themselves. The fringes simply do not have enough of a following to allow any kind of movement by themselves. If we had a parliamentary system - then there'd be something to talk about, because then they would be part of a coalition, but - as you are well aware.......we do not have a parliamentary system.
All people are doing when they vote or give money to a Nader, or a Bar, or a Cobb or a Shriveled Old Rich Guy From Texas is making their interests become irrelevant and becoming kingmakers for the 'other' side. It was conservative That Old Dude from Texas that put the liberal Clinton into office, and it was the progressive Nader that put the Neoconjob Bush into office......... No Shriveled Old Dude and Bush the First would have stayed in office, same as no Nader = Gore as President/No Bush Jr. the Neocon.
All the third party people need to grow up and stop with their selfish nonsense. The world is too dangerous a place to still pretend that a third-party will ever get anywhere or that we have time to fuck around in this dreamworld where a third-party means anything more than some fantastical dream that these parties are relevant.. It's too dangerous a place to risk putting another Republican in office. I'd rather have someone try to starve me to death rather than shoot me in the back of the head with a hollowpoint. At least when you're being starved, there's a chance to live...
Seriously, stop the fantasy and force yourself to deal with reality. No Third Party Will Be Relevant EXCEPT As Kingmakers. That's it. All you're doing when you give money or vote for a third-party is drain that faction from the party that they are more closely aligned with. If you far-lefties were to vote for Obama and then hold his feet to the fire when he gets elected, at least you'll have SOMETHING......... As of now, you don't vote for him, you vote some Candidate Irrelevant and he never has to listen to you again because you neither funded him nor voted for him.
How can you not understand this?
This world is too dangerous. It's WAY WAY WAY too dangerous to even take the TINIEST risk that McCain will get into office.
Seriously - how do you not understand this?
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 9:23 AM"All people are doing when they vote or give money to a Nader, or a Bar, or a Cobb or a Shriveled Old Rich Guy From Texas is making their interests become irrelevant and becoming kingmakers for the 'other' side."
Then they are doing something. The are sending a *clear* message that says "you do not speak for me, and since you don't speak for me, you will never get my vote". That's what they call democracy in action
"All the third party people need to grow up and stop with their selfish nonsense. "
Do you mean, like, you know, exercising their rights?
"No Third Party Will Be Relevant EXCEPT As Kingmakers. "
Yeah, that is the whole point. Speak for me, or lose -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Sat, July 12, 2008 - 3:46 AM<<"All people are doing when they vote or give money to a Nader, or a Bar, or a Cobb or a Shriveled Old Rich Guy From Texas is making their interests become irrelevant and becoming kingmakers for the 'other' side.">>
<Then they are doing something. The are sending a *clear* message that says "you do not speak for me, and since you don't speak for me, you will never get my vote". That's what they call democracy in action>
Well, I consider such a vote, with the purpose of "sending a *clear* message" a) irrelevant, because all they are doing is giving the main parties a clear sign that those people and their pet issues can be ignored, because now the parties are not beholden to those people. They didn't vote nor give money? Irrelevant. B) they are HARMING the issues that they are so fervently emotional about. If a Lefty that cares about the environment votes for a third party, they are complicit in HARMING the environment if their votes helps put a Republican in office, who will obviously harm the environment far more than a Lefty will. Same with civil rights, with tax policy, with international relations... All important issues that they make irrelevant with their votes.
Such third-part votes are selfish, in my opinion. That "*clear* message" means nothing. Not a damned thing. Well, they ARE saying, 'Ignore me, please.'
<Do you mean, like, you know, exercising their rights?>
There's nothing wrong with "exercising their rights", but when that exercise causes MORE harm in the short and long run? It's a Pyhrric victory AT BEST. That person can feel good about their vote, but then they have to deal with the ramifications of that vote. So, yes - it IS selfish to do such an exercise. It's moral and righteous, but selfish.
<<"No Third Party Will Be Relevant EXCEPT As Kingmakers. ">>
<Yeah, that is the whole point. Speak for me, or lose>
A very good point. The problem is that in our system, those that work for the party in one way or another get a seat at the table. The fact, Dust, is that the issues that are important are NOT important to the parties - so they get ignored. Moreso - if the Dems were to take some of the ideas of the far-Lefties, they'd alienate the centrists, and there are A LOT more centrists than there are far-Lefties. It's better to get that person INTO OFFICE, and THEN push them to the Left, rather than expect the party to harm themselves for LESS votes than what they'd get as they move to the center. That's just reasonable and logical, is it not? -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Sat, July 12, 2008 - 10:28 AMSo, you're saying that there are only two colors to wear, for eternity, and that no matter how criminal they become, the only responsible course is to endorse which criminal you hate less, enslave yourself to their agenda, forever quell your political needs and issues, no matter how central or important to life they might be, and to shut up forever about any method for amending this situation. Don't like the DLC? Join the Democratic Party!!!
No.
Fail.
I'll work, from now on, to end the prestige of these parties and their supporters. They are crooks and marks. Nothing more. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Sat, July 12, 2008 - 11:57 AMhear hear, Loki
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Sat, July 12, 2008 - 7:02 PM<So, you're saying that there are only two colors to wear, for eternity, and that no matter how criminal they become, the only responsible course is to endorse which criminal you hate less...>
Absolutely. Same as to live through cancer, one has to poison oneself with a caustic chemical that will kill you a little slower than it'll kill the cancer.
You remind me of the type of person who wants a magical cure for cancer, and will wait for that magical cure even if it means that they will die waiting.
That's where we're at: IF we do not do something about the cancer that is eating alive our country and this world - then we will not survive to be able to DO SOMETHING about it.
Face it - no matter what you say, Obama will be better for our country and the world than will McCain. That's just a fact that even YOU can not disagree with.
You really want another conservative SCOTUS justice? Really? Is that what you want? How in the fucking world do you think that our country can handle such a guaranteed eventuality? What kind of high-horse allows you to be so illogically selfish?
<forever quell your political needs and issues, no matter how central or important to life they might be>
No, not "forever". Just until we get a handle on the REALLY important stuff......you know, like the environment, our civil rights, abortion, etc...
Let's fix those issues and THEN you can be selfish. It makes no sense being illogically selfish in a sinking boat. Fix the boat first - that's what smart people would do.
<I'll work, from now on, to end the prestige of these parties and their supporters. They are crooks and marks. Nothing more.>
Well, get on it, because if another Republican gets into office, you may not be able to actually speak out against those people forever......... -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Sat, July 12, 2008 - 7:05 PMThe Party is God, and the Obamessiah is His Prophet
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Wed, July 9, 2008 - 9:17 PM" Note that I'd still vote for him over McCain in a swing state."
You got some balls calling people "sheep" all the time, dude. -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Wed, July 9, 2008 - 11:37 PMjason, its not being a sheep to recognize that in a system of great power, small differences in leadership philosophy can have real world repercussions.
nobody can lecture me on the progressive critique of the Democratic party, I've been singing the same gospel for years now. i openly call clinton, carter, lbj, jfk etc. war criminals and will call obama one when he inevitably becomes one. i won't vote dem since i'm in CA, i am considering cynthia mckinney but i also might write in noam chomsky or vote for leonard peltier.
that said, the fact is that the republican party is incredibly vicious. they are fascists and they have a blood lust that means real pain for many around the world. you can sit there in your comfy chair and ignore it but yes republican administrations do more harm to the wretched of the earth. -
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Unsu...
Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 12:07 AMYou can please some of the people some of the time...
f'in' prosaic.
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 2:51 AM"they are fascists"
And Democrats aren't? Obama isn't just another fucking politician in a $3000 suit? Give me a fucking break, cDub. I'm not questioning your leftist/progressive credentials or beliefs, I'm not at all.......but given all the shit you've talked, I just don't see how you can support ANYONE with a D or an R in front of their name. It just doesn't make sense to me........they're two sides of the same coin. If you can't see that, you should probably stop calling people sheep post-haste. -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 3:00 AMYes well thats true but there are differences that matter to real people. Domestic policy does effect people's lives too, and the Republicans are more anti-labor, put worse bureaucrats into the regulatory agencies, etc. The Demorats are nowhere as far left as they should be - they are really on the right by world standards - but the Republicans are further right, more vicious, and it does make a difference in some scenarios. . Its a typical bourgeoisie to ignore this reality.
Anyway, Presidential elections get way too much attention versus local, state, and congress. Senate is rigged just like the presidential. -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 9:03 AM
Democrats are far from perfect, but to throw them into the same heap as Republicans is foolish.
There IS a difference between Ds and Rs. We would not be stuck in Iraq if a D was in the white house.
-troy -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 9:07 AM<We would not be stuck in Iraq if a D was in the white house. >
1) we're not stuck. al qaeda is, dunce.
2) if a "D" were in the white house, saddam hussein would be in power. happy about that? you guys are a completely backwards bunch who must ALWAYS be kept out of the white house-- a deeply disorganized, irresponsible bunch of stupid people with no vision, no patience, no manners. -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 9:35 AM
I honestly believe that America would be in much better shape today if we kept Sadam under tight sanctions, counter-balancing Iran's power, and spending 600 billion dollars on America's infrastructure and homeland security.
I would feel safer if we spent 50 billion in nuclear material detection equipment at our ports.
I would feel safer if we were able to focus our terrorism offensive in Afghanistan, instead of creating a second terrorist front in Iraq.
Just when we think we are making progress against the terrorist in Iraq, they are blooming again in Afghanistan. Feeling safer?
Just think what 600 billion of domestic spending would do for our job market? For our long-term infrastructure needs?
-troy
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 1:26 PM"We would not be stuck in Iraq if a D was in the white house. "
There is absolutely NO way you can prove that since neither Gore or Kerry were elected.
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 12:18 PM>>I just don't see how you can support ANYONE with a D or an R in front of their name. It just doesn't make sense to me<<
hear hear! -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 12:28 PMThere really is a difference between the "D" and the "R". It's like the difference between being beaten on the ass with a hickory switch and being being on the head with a baseball bat. -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 6:04 PM"It's like the difference between being beaten on the ass with a hickory switch and being being on the head with a baseball bat."
I'll fucking take neither, thanks. -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 6:45 PM>> I'll fucking take neither, thanks. <<
Good luck with that. Are you a member of the L5 society or something? Those of us trapped here on earth have limited options. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 1:04 AMYou limit them yourself.
In reality, you have many, many unexplored options. Allow me to suggest starting off with some ruthless self-examination, during which you question your commitment to political parties and figureheads.
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 9:12 AM<that said, the fact is that the republican party is incredibly vicious. they are fascists>
actually, liberals are fascists -- who is it again that wants the 'fairness doctrine' --you know, to kill talk radio, which is based on advertising dollars? the left.
the Right aren't fascists in the least. the true left are the democrats-- read jonah goldberg's bestseller, 'liberal fascism'. it makes the case quite clear: liberals, because they can't win arguments, turn to shutting things down: that is fascistic. -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 4:30 PMjonah goldberg is a turd. -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 5:10 PM" jonah goldberg is a turd."
good one.
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 7:14 PM<jonah goldberg is a turd.>
he's a serious scholar who has a #1 bestseller with his "Liberal Fascism", which was a facsinating, extremely well documenteed work that shows--really shows that the Left are the true fascists --that they come from a tradition of mussolini, the first fascists, hitler and the nazi's, etc.
it was a #1 NY Times bestseller and the times didn't even review it, so afraid theyw ere of god, forbid, a conservative with an important piece.
and the best you got is 'he's a turd'?
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 9:45 PMthe times did not review "the family" either. they do not review a lot of books.
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 12:48 AMthese right wing books by coulter, etc. are "best sellers" because book clubs give them away.
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Unsu...
Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 9:32 AM
jesus christ. look at this current google ad for this thread:
www.campaigncola.com/files/o...rack.php -
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Unsu...
Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 9:34 AM
oops, it just changed.
anyway, check out the YES WE CAN kola!
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 9:50 AMholy shit~!!!
There really is hope soda.
PS funny they picked cola, you know, with its dubious past and all
<<<When launched Coca Cola's two key ingredients were cocaine (benzoylmethyl ecgonine) and caffeine. The cocaine was derived from the coca leave and the caffeine from kola nuts - Coca-Cola (the 'K' in Kola was replaced with a C for marketing purposes).[20][21]
Coca - Cocaine
Pemberton called for five ounces of coca leaf per gallon of syrup, a significant dose, whereas, in 1891, Candler claimed his formula (altered extensively from Pemberton's original) contained only a tenth of this amount. Coca Cola did once contain an estimated nine milligrams of cocaine per glass, but in 1903 it was removed.[22] Coca Cola still contains coca flavouring.
After 1904, Coca Cola started using, instead of fresh leaves, "spent" leaves - the leftovers of the cocaine-extraction process with cocaine trace levels left over at a molecular level.[23][24] To this day, Coca Cola uses as an ingredient a cocaine free coca leaf extract prepared at a Stepan Company plant in Maywood, New Jersey.
In the United States, Stepan Company is the only manufacturing plant authorized by the Federal Government to import and process the coca plant.[25] Stepan laboratory in Maywood, N.J., is the nation's only legal commercial importer of coca leaves, which it obtains mainly from Peru and, to a lesser extent, Bolivia. Besides producing the coca flavouring agent for Coca Cola, Stepan Company extracts cocaine from the coca leaves, which it sells to Mallinckrodt Inc, a St. Louis pharmaceutical manufacturer that is the only company in the United States licensed to purify cocaine for medicinal use.[26] N.J. Stepan buys about 100 metric tons of dried Peruvian coca leaves each year, said Marco Castillo, spokesman for Peru's state-owned National Coca Co. [27][28]>>> -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Sat, July 12, 2008 - 7:55 PMYeah I heard they still put coca in it.
I'd like to taste the stuff with leaf extract I bet it was one hell of a picker-upper : D
Actually I know people who have tried chewing coca leaf in peru to help hiking in Machu Picchu. -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Sat, July 12, 2008 - 8:03 PMI tried some dry leaf at a rave in Amsterdam, but couldn't tell you much about it, due to the fact that I was already in my own little world -
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Re: Obama's capitulation has gone too far
Sat, July 12, 2008 - 9:12 PMNo, this is good. America needs to open its eyes and see that the democrats are little better than the republicans, not near enough. . .so that people turn away from the party system and work in direct politics. . .
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