What, we're not a Theocracy like, um... Iran?!? :)

Seriously, you wouldn't want to live in a Christian Nation

atheism.about.com/od/recons...uction.htm

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rodent (putting the eek in geek)

You're right. America was not founded with a religious government but a secular one ostensibly based on secular Enlightenment values. Yet our secular government managed to allow and even encourage slavery for centuries, the annihilation of indigenous peoples in order to steal their land, and the imperialist theft of vast swaths of land from others.

But oh yeah, only religious governments are bad.

Because Angus wasn't around when we had this discussion, here it is again:

The following quotes are all confirmed and documented, something my opponents rarely do. My prediction is that Entropy et. el. will offer the obscure "Treaty of Tripoli" and a few quotes from Jefferson as their "overwhelming evidence" that the United States is not a Christian nation. Note I have offered the view of court cases and the commentary of supreme court Justices, including the very first justice. Those ignorant of American History (just about everyone who went to a public school. Heck, one school text on Washington edited out his remarks on "religion" from his farewell address, so you cannot hardly blame the lefties for being so ignorant of the facts).

Readers need to take note that calling the United States a Christian Nation is not the same as calling it a theocracy. Our founders hated theocracies, Christian or otherwise and some quotes offered by the detractors are referring not to a generic Christian nation with liberty for all, but a theocracy, which all people should abhor! Secondly, understand that there are no quotes by any founder that I am aware of that state that America was founded as a "secular nation" as ignorant lefties love to claim. If I am wrong, lets see those quotes and the references for them.

George Washington appointed John Jay as the first supreme court justice of the United States. John Jay has this to say"

"Almost all nations have peace or war at the will and pleasure of rulers whom they do not elect, and who are not always wise or virtuous. Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry Johnston, editor (New York: G. P. Punam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, pp. 391-393, 403-419, letters to John Murray, October 12, 1816 and April 15, 1818.

In 1892 the US Supreme Court made this ruling in a case. (Church of The Holy Trinity vs. The United States.) "No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people. This is a Christian nation."

Supreme court Justice Joseph Story on the first amendment to the constitution:

""We are not to attribute this prohibition of a national religious establishment to an indifference to religion in general, and especially to Christianity (which none could hold in more reverence, than the framers of the Constitution) . . . Probably at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, and of the first amendment to it . . . . the general if not the universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience and the freedom of religious worship. An attempt to level all religions, and to make it a matter of state policy to hold all in utter indifference, would have created universal disapprobation, if not universal indignation . . . The real object of the amendment was not to countenance, much less to advance, Mahometanism, or Judaism, or infidelity [secularism], by prostrating Christianity; but exclude all rivalry among Christian sects, and to prevent any national ecclesiastical establishment which should give to a hierarchy the exclusive patronage of the national government." Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story on the First Amendment" excerpts from Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States by Supreme Court justice Joseph Story, published in 1833

Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise. In this sense and to this extent, our civilizations and our institutions are emphatically Christian. Richmond v. Moore, Illinois Supreme Court, 1883

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens" George Washington's farewell address.

Why is it that, next to the birth day of the Saviour of the World, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [July 4th]? . . . Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birth-day of the Saviour? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the corner stone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity. . ? John Quincy Adams, An Oration Delivered Before the Inhabitants of the Town of Newburyport, at Their Request, on the Sixty-first Anniversary of the Declaration of Independence, July 4th, 1837 (Newburyport: Charles Whipple, 1837), p. 5.

Dan's Comment: Here John Quincy Adams acknowledged the connection of Jesus' birth to the birth of our nation and the foundation of our country, "that it laid the corner stone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity". It is hard to get more clear that this!

"Almost all the civil liberty now enjoyed in the world owes its origin to the principles of the Christian religion.
. . . . . . . . . .
[T]he religion which has introduced civil liberty, is the religion of Christ and his apostles.
. . . . . . . . . .
This is genuine Christianity, and to this we owe our free constitutions of government."
Noah Webster, History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie & Peck, 1832), p. 300, Sec. 578.

My opponents love to quote the "deist" Thomas Jefferson. He is their man "they think". However, you can find quotes of Jefferson which appear to say conflicting things and Jefferson was no liberal! Note:

"The only foundation for useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion."
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever."

"To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others..." Thomas Jefferson, The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth (Washington: Government Printing Office, 1904), House of Representatives, Document No. 755, 58th Congress, 2d Session.

Much has been made of the fact that Jefferson edited the bible removing all of the miracles of Jesus from it. But Jefferson stated that his intentions were not to create a new bible, but rather to introduce the Indians to the moral teachings of Jesus, which is why he titled it "the life and morals of Jesus of Nazareth.

"I consider the doctrines of Jesus as delivered by himself to contain the outlines of the sublimest system of morality that has ever been taught but I hold in the most profound detestation and execration the corruptions of it which have been invented..."

Letter to John Taylor, May 28, 1816

What about that other deist, Ben Franklin? Did he argue that this was a "secular nation" founded upon secularism? Heavens no! Franklin knew quite well the value of Christianity to society. In the context of teaching history to the youth of Philadelphia, he said:

"History will also afford the frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion, from its usefulness to the public; the advantage of a religious character among private persons; the mischiefs of superstition, &c. and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern." Benjamin Franklin, Proposals Relating to the Education of Youth in Pennsylvania (Philadelphia, 1749), p. 22.

Ben Franklin was not a Christian. He rejected the divinity of Christ, as did Jefferson. But they bear no resemblence to todays Christ haters. Note this quote:

"Go constantly to church, whoever preaches. The act of devotion in the Common Prayer Book is your principal business there, and if properly attended to, will do more towards amending the heart than sermons generally can do. For they were composed by men of much greater piety and wisdom, than our common composers of sermons can pretend to be; and therefore I wish you would never miss the prayer days; yet I do not mean you should despise sermons, even of the preachers you dislike, for the discourse is often much better than the man, as sweet and clear waters come through very dirty earth. I am the more particular on this head, as you seemed to express a little before I came away some inclination to leave our church, which I would not have you do." Benjamin Franklin, The Works of Benjamin Franklin, Jared Sparks, ed. (Boston: Tappan, Whittmore, and Mason, 1838), Vol. VII, pp. 269-271, letter to his daughter, Sarah, on November 8, 1764.

In conclusion. The constitution, although it does not explicity mention the Christian faith, is a Christian document nevertheless in that it is based upon the principles of Christianity in every respect. It's separation of powers, the right to bear arms etc are all based upon the doctrine of the sinfulness of man, the plurality of elders in the church etc. (suggested Reading, The Christian History of the Constitution by Rosalie Slater 2 volume set). The very existance of the document is no accident. As the worlds first written consistitution, it is based upon the contracts which God had with mankind in the Old and New testament (contract). The peoples, including the founders, were primarily Christian. Even the deists were more Christian than most of their modern fans. The government was founded not on secularism, the Quran or the Hindoo religion, as anyone who has every read history or read the inscriptions on the walls throughout DC (and had a remedial education in the bible) would know. We had Christian founders, Christian documents (Declaration and Constitution), and a Christian people. We even had established Church states at the time it was ratified!

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