can someone explain this to me?

topic posted Sat, May 10, 2008 - 1:04 AM by 
first of all, hello. this is my first time posting in this tribe.

so tonight i came upon the following information...
and, um, the iraq war started on march 20, 2003, right?
so can someone please tell me what is this all about?

list of dates US/ British missiles were dropped in iraq
in 1999:
www.ccmep.org/usbombingwatch/1999.htm
in 2000:
www.ccmep.org/usbombingwatch/2000.htm
in 2001:
www.ccmep.org/usbombingwatch/2001.htm
in 2002:
www.ccmep.org/usbombingwa...02.html#2002

i may be having a blonde moment over here, but i am confused.
  • Re: can someone explain this to me?

    Sat, May 10, 2008 - 1:07 AM

    The US was at war with Iraq all through the 90's .

    Dropped a lot of bombs.

    Economic sanctions murdered about a million.

    When asked if murdering half a million children was worth it, Madeline Albright, Clinton's appointee, said it was a tough question, but yes, it was worth it.

    Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: "We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?"

    Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it."
    • Re: can someone explain this to me?

      Sat, May 10, 2008 - 2:15 AM
      Can we get a better reference for this "Clinton killed 1 million Iraqi's"?

      I thought the Iraqis had plenty of food and medicine before the invasion.

      -troy
      • Re: can someone explain this to me?

        Mon, May 12, 2008 - 3:10 AM
        Clinton killed 1 million?
        Try to wiki the health effects of depleted uranium truned into gass and dumped into water supply.

        To the "blonde" that wanted to know when the war stared. I was graduating from high school when we started dumping bombs on Iraq. I guess it doesn't count that we gave chem wepons to iran iraq so that all minorities would be killed first.
        I nominate steven as being the closest to reality in this discussion.

        "The US was at war with Iraq all through the 90's .

        Dropped a lot of bombs.

        Economic sanctions murdered about a million.

        When asked if murdering half a million children was worth it, Madeline Albright, Clinton's appointee, said it was a tough question, but yes, it was worth it.

        Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: "We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?"

        Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it."
        • Re: can someone explain this to me?

          Mon, May 12, 2008 - 3:24 AM
          For every brownie we kill, an SUV gets a chrome bumper, brush guard, dvd player, bike rack, and tinted windows.

          Murder is good for the economy, ya see?

          Also it keeps Seth happy. If we arent killin enough brownies, he gets real angsty.
      • Re: can someone explain this to me?

        Mon, May 12, 2008 - 8:18 AM
        the Nation's Hard Look at Iraq Sactions, from late 2001, is a good survey of the various studies of deaths of children.

        www.thenation.com/doc/20011203/cortright

        The two most reliable scientific studies on sanctions in Iraq are the 1999 report "Morbidity and Mortality Among Iraqi Children," by Columbia University's Richard Garfield, and "Sanctions and Childhood Mortality in Iraq," a May 2000 article by Mohamed Ali and Iqbal Shah in The Lancet....

        Garfield has recently recalculated his numbers, based on the additional findings of the Ali and Shah study, to arrive at an estimate of approximately 350,000 through 2000. Most of these deaths are associated with sanctions, according to Garfield, but some are also attributable to destruction caused by the Gulf War air campaign, which dropped 90,000 tons of bombs in forty-three days, a far more intensive attack than the current strikes against Afghanistan.

        PS: and welcome, Stefania!
      • Re: can someone explain this to me?

        Mon, May 12, 2008 - 3:18 PM
        <Can we get a better reference for this "Clinton killed 1 million Iraqi's"?>

        Troy, there is no better reference. We've been through this a lot. What some may want to come up with is some group that extrapolates that number, based on a number that can't really be substantiated with any kind of definitive surety.

        • Re: can someone explain this to me?

          Tue, May 13, 2008 - 8:29 PM
          """"What some may want to come up with is some group that extrapolates that number, based on a number that can't really be substantiated with any kind of definitive surety. """"""""

          kinda like 6 million Jews in the gas chamber?

          Sticking your head in the sand doesn't make it any less real.
          • Re: can someone explain this to me?

            Wed, May 14, 2008 - 3:00 AM
            <kinda like 6 million Jews in the gas chamber? >

            Wow. A new low for a bottom-feeder. Very impressive.

            I dare you to try to substantiate the number killed under sanctions. Come on. I dare you.

            What? You can't? You just take that number on the word of those that parrot it?

            Hardly surprising.

            I think that I'll start referring to you as 'Polly'.
  • Re: can someone explain this to me?

    Mon, May 12, 2008 - 7:23 AM
    From what I have seen the whole exercise even including Desert storm is about one thing. Profits................. there has been a systematic manipulation of the issues in this region with the sole purpose of dividing the various factions into sides with labels that we here in the West can identify with along the lines of good and bad guys.

    While all along the real prize being oil and a double dipping of profits from it and the war that we have caused to ensure that we control it. What we have allowed to happen to the people of Iraq is nothing short of genocide.
    • Re: can someone explain this to me?

      Mon, May 12, 2008 - 7:55 AM
      Yeah, Enlilson .... Corruption through and through ..... Dick ChainHim really made out like a bandit. I think we are currently in a global genocide and no seems to care or realize. BushCo has created Global Slavery ... Cause and Effect - inescapable. Individuals need to Wake Up, the American Psyche is bankrupt, not only in their bank accounts. Individuals, like you and me, can choose to NOT participate, make a difference in our familes and communities and SPEAK up against corruption, even at the local bar .... Whenever the opportunity arises.... stop Pretending it's not there ....

      We are all in this together....
  • Re: can someone explain this to me?

    Mon, May 12, 2008 - 7:37 AM
    Obama never opposed the sanctions and the bombings in Iraq.
    • Re: can someone explain this to me?

      Mon, May 12, 2008 - 7:49 AM
      Cornel prior to his 2002 speech on Iraq that where do you find evidence that he was in favor of what we were doing in Iraq one way or another and a link would make your case.
      • Re: can someone explain this to me?

        Mon, May 12, 2008 - 8:34 AM
        >> Enlison: Cornel prior to his 2002 speech on Iraq that where do you find evidence that he was in favor of what we were doing in Iraq one way or another and a link would make your case. <<

        My statement was quite specific: Obama never opposed the sanctions and the bombings.

        The only argument against that statement would be to provide some evidence that he did oppose them. Of course such evidence doesn't exist.

        • Re: can someone explain this to me?

          Mon, May 12, 2008 - 8:40 AM
          Cornel, you really think Obama or Hillary is immume from the corruption ................. ????

          I would love to hear him or Hillary speak about how they are intending to put all the wastefull BushCo/Chainhim military spending, back in to the good US of A.......... How are they going to stop the Global Genocide plan that this administration has implemented.... Not by mere words............ that's obvious.............. What's the plan??????? Why are they not REALLY having these conversations????????? Ever wonder?
          • Re: can someone explain this to me?

            Mon, May 12, 2008 - 8:48 AM
            >> Sun: Cornel, you really think Obama or Hillary is immume from the corruption ................. ???? <<

            Are you hallucinating or something? This is a thread about the economic sanctions and bombing against Iraq that took place from the end of the first Gulf War in 1988 until the invasion of Iraq in 2003. I made the point that Obama is no better than Clinton on this issue because he never opposed these sanctions or the bombing of Iraq that took place during all that time. How do you get from there to asking me if I "really think Obama or Hillary is immume from the corruption"?

            if you would like to respond to something that I have actually said, please do so. If you are carrying on a conversation with yourself, please excuse me for interrupting.
        • Re: can someone explain this to me?

          Mon, May 12, 2008 - 8:48 AM
          Cornel how do you know this to be a fact. He was a state Senator and before that a community activist in a particular area of Chicago why would he be speaking out against the sanctions other then a personal reason and who would have even thought to ask him about it. It seems you have just made up a tautologous hobgoblin statement for your own amusement.
          • Re: can someone explain this to me?

            Mon, May 12, 2008 - 8:50 AM
            >> Enlilson: Cornel how do you know this to be a fact. He was a state Senator and before that a community activist in a particular area of Chicago why would he be speaking out against the sanctions other then a personal reason and who would have even thought to ask him about it. It seems you have just made up a tautologous hobgoblin statement for your own amusement. <<

            Are you saying that Obama didn't have to have positions on important foreign policy matters because he was a nobody who had nothing to say on such matters? If so I will gladly concede the point.
            • Re: can someone explain this to me?

              Mon, May 12, 2008 - 12:33 PM
              I am saying if no one asked him how do you know what he thought about the subject

              ps nice way to hijack a thread to cast stones at Obama.
              • Re: can someone explain this to me?

                Tue, May 13, 2008 - 8:18 PM
                >> Enlilson: I am saying if no one asked him how do you know what he thought about the subject <<

                Obama has definitely made broad, vague, but wholly approving references to the regime of sanctions and bombings that held sway prior to the invasion of March 2003. And he never so much as hinted that he opposed at the time or opposes now the economic sanctions and military actions against Iraq between the end of the first Gulf War in 1989 and the invasion in 2003.

                And let's be clear. I am not claiming to "know what he thought". I am stating a simple fact: he never opposed the murderous policies of the US against Iraq during the 14 year period from 1989 to 2003. He also never opposed the first Gulf War for that matter. I know I sure as hell did.
                • "Obama praises first Gulf War"

                  Tue, May 13, 2008 - 8:21 PM
                  "Obama praises first Gulf War, GOP foreign policy"
                  www.greenchange.org/article.php

                  Obama Aligns Foreign Policy With GOP
                  Devlin Barrett | Associated Press | 03.28.2008
                  Sen. Barack Obama said Friday he would return the country to the more "traditional" foreign policy efforts of past presidents, such as George H.W. Bush, John F. Kennedy and Ronald Reagan.

                  At a town hall event at a local high school gymnasium, Obama praised George H.W. Bush - father of the president - for the way he handled the Persian Gulf War: with a large coalition and carefully defined objectives.

                  Obama began a six-day bus tour through Pennsylvania, the largest remaining primary prize in the contest with Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton for the Democratic nomination. Sen. John McCain is the Republican nominee-in-waiting.

                  "The truth is that my foreign policy is actually a return to the traditional bipartisan realistic policy of George Bush's father, of John F. Kennedy, of, in some ways, Ronald Reagan, and it is George Bush that's been naive and it's people like John McCain and, unfortunately, some Democrats that have facilitated him acting in these naive ways that have caused us so much damage in our reputation around the world," he said.

                  Obama faced criticism in January from Clinton and then-challenger John Edwards for saying Reagan had changed the trajectory of American politics - and that Republicans had been the party of ideas for the last decade or more.

                  In one of the more heated moments of the Democratic debates, Clinton challenged him directly on the topic, saying those GOP ideas were "bad for America, and I was fighting against those ideas."

                  In his speech Friday night, the Illinois senator charged that Clinton, for all her criticism of the current President Bush, has too often gone along with his decisions.

                  "I do think that Sen. Clinton would understand that George Bush's policies have failed, but in many ways she has been captive to the same politics that led her to vote for authorizing the war in Iraq," he said. "Since 9/11 the conventional wisdom has been that you've got to look tough on foreign policy by voting and acting like the Republicans, and I disagree with that."

                  McCain spokesman Tucker Bounds said Obama "represents an absolute departure" from Reagan and other presidents "whose strength in the face of an outspoken and determined enemy won the greater peace for a generation."
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: "Obama praises first Gulf War"

                    Wed, May 14, 2008 - 2:11 AM
                    To some extent this is correct. Hillary is on the neocon / Bush Jr. foreign policy track. Obama is on Bush Sr. foreign policy track.

                    Oh and Cornel Hillary boasts about being involved in all Clinton Administration decisions. Well I guess that makes her a war criminal too based on those 1/2 million dead Iraqi children hm?
                    • Re: "Obama praises first Gulf War"

                      Wed, May 14, 2008 - 6:49 AM
                      >> cDub: To some extent this is correct. Hillary is on the neocon / Bush Jr. foreign policy track. Obama is on Bush Sr. foreign policy track.
                      Oh and Cornel Hillary boasts about being involved in all Clinton Administration decisions. Well I guess that makes her a war criminal too based on those 1/2 million dead Iraqi children hm? <<

                      cDub, please - you are making this way too easy. Obama embraces George H.W. Bush's foreign policy (and to some extent even that of Ronnie Raygunz), but shuns everything associated with Bill Clinton - while Hillary Clinton associates herself closely with her husband's Administration. Is this really a tough call? Admittedly neither is what Dennis Kucinich would advocate - but there IS more than a dime's worth of difference between Bill Clinton and George H.W. Bush.
                • Re: can someone explain this to me?

                  Wed, May 14, 2008 - 7:27 AM
                  How do you know this to be a fact Cornel if you have nothing to reference from that time. You seem to make some leaps of judgement that reflect more your thinking then Obama's.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: can someone explain this to me?

                    Wed, May 14, 2008 - 7:45 AM
                    >> Enlilson: How do you know this to be a fact Cornel if you have nothing to reference from that time. You seem to make some leaps of judgement that reflect more your thinking then Obama's. <<

                    I posted an article that quotes from Obama indicating his approval of George H.W. Bush's foreign policy already in this thread:
                    USpolitics.tribe.net/thread/...a9100e8a

                    So why do you say I "have nothing to reference from that time"?

                    "The truth is that my foreign policy is actually a return to the traditional bipartisan realistic policy of George Bush's father, of John F. Kennedy, of, in some ways, Ronald Reagan."
                    Barack Obama (from the article in the post linked to above)
                    • Re: can someone explain this to me?

                      Wed, May 14, 2008 - 8:24 AM
                      John F. Kennedy's foreign policy highlights:

                      starting the Vietnam War
                      the Bay of Pigs
                      the militarization of space
                      promoting fascist military dictatorships in Latin American and around the world in the name of "freedom"
                      the CIA helping to bring Abdul Salam Arif and his new Baath Party to power in Iraq
  • Re: can someone explain this to me?

    Mon, May 12, 2008 - 3:28 PM
    stefania, you do remember that the US/Britain and others went to war against Iraq after they invaded Kuwait, right?


    Well throughout the 90's the US/Britain enforced "no fly zones" and used pretty much every excuse to keep Iraq back in the stone ages. After the first Gulf War, Bush the first called on Iraqis to overthrow Saddam.

    When it looked like the "wrong people" (ie not US friendly) would topple Hussein, the US sat back under the guise of Stormin Norman and let Saddam cut loose on the Iraqi uprising.
    • Re: can someone explain this to me?

      Tue, May 13, 2008 - 6:07 PM
      hi brent.
      yeah, i remember that.
      although i don't recall bush the first calling on the iraqi's to overturn saddam after the first gulf war. i thought that after that war the us agreed to let bygones be bygones with saddam, because we let him go scott free. then again, i was kind of young when that was going on, and not as interested in politics, so it's very possible that i missed that whole parlay.
  • Guess what?

    Wed, May 14, 2008 - 1:57 AM
    The US is pursuing a persistent bombing campaign against Somalia. I think they dropped more bombs last week or so.

    US bombs Islamist town in Somalia

    The US has launched an attack against a "known al-Qaeda terrorist" in southern Somalia, the Pentagon says.

    Three missiles hit Dhoble town early on Monday, reportedly killing four people and wounding 20.

    People are fleeing the town, fearing more strikes. Residents say planes could still be seen flying overhead on Monday morning.

    Islamist insurgents seized the town last week and reports said a leader, Hassan Turki, had been in the area.

    Mr Turki is on the US list of "financers of terrorism".

    US Defense Department spokesman Bryan Whitman refused to give the identity of the target, whether the strike had achieved its goal or how the strike had been carried out.

    A US military official, who refused to be named, told the AFP news agency that at least one cruise missile had been fired.

    Meanwhile, Islamists have attacked the town of Bur Hakaba, leaving the local police chief and four others dead.

    The BBC's Mohammed Olad Hassan in Mogadishu says the Islamists have adopted a new strategy of launching attacks outside the capital.

    'Hideouts'

    Dhoble resident Fatuma Abdullahi told the BBC they were woken up by "a loud and big bang".

    "When we came out we found our neighbour's house completely obliterated as if no house existed here," he said.

    Another resident said: "Right now - in full daylight - the planes keep flying over us. They are so low that we're deafened by their engines."

    "We are poor civilians living in a simple town - what have we done to deserve this bombing?"

    Local official Ali Hussein told the BBC that many people were fleeing the town.

    The border with Kenya has been closed for the past year.

    Islamist spokesman Sheikh Mukhtar Robow said the US was trying to hit Islamist hideouts in the area.

    "The Americans bombed the town and hit civilian targets, thinking that they were Islamist hideouts. They used an AC-130 plane," he told the AFP news agency.

    Regrouping

    The US bombed the area a year ago and residents said the same plane was again involved.

    There have been reports that the Islamists have been regrouping in the area around Dhoble in recent weeks.

    They were ousted from the capital, Mogadishu in December 2006 by government forces, backed up by Ethiopia, with some intelligence from the US.

    Dhoble was the last town they held.

    The US has an anti-terror task force based in neighbouring Djibouti.

    The US accused the Somali Islamists of harbouring those responsible for the 1998 attacks on its embassies in Kenya and Tanzania.

    The Islamists denied this, as well as reports they had links to al-Qaeda.

    Somalia has not had an effective national government since 1991.

    Last month, a senior UN official told the BBC that Somalia was the worst place in the world for children.

    news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7274462.stm
    • Re: Guess what?

      Wed, May 14, 2008 - 1:59 AM
      That was in march, now this is May:

      Air raid kills Somali militants

      The leader of the military wing of an Islamist insurgent organisation in Somalia has been killed in an overnight air strike.

      Aden Hashi Ayro, al-Shabab's military commander, died when his home in the central town of Dusamareb was bombed.

      Ten other people, including a senior militant, are also reported dead.

      A US military spokesman told the BBC that it had attacked what he called a known al-Qaeda target in Somalia, but refused to give further details.

      Al-Shabab, considered a terrorist group by the US, is the military wing of the Somali Sharia courts movement, the Union of Islamic Courts (UIC), until Ethiopian troops ousted them in 2006.

      The group has since regrouped and is in effect in control of large parts of central and southern Somalia.

      'Scorched earth'

      An al-Shabab spokesman, Mukhtar Robow Adumansur, told the BBC that Ayro was killed along with another militant commander in the attack.

      Locals said it happened at about 0300 (0000 GMT).

      "We heard a huge explosion and when we ran out of our house we saw balls of smoke and flames coming out of house," Dusamareb resident Nur Geele told the BBC.

      "The house was totally destroyed to the ground, also other houses nearby," local elder Ahmed Mumin Jama said.

      Dr Ahmed Mahdi at Dusamareb Hospital told the BBC's Somali Service that he was treating eight civilians, including women and children, for burns and shrapnel wounds.

      One of the women has since died, bringing the death toll so far to 11.

      He said identifying the dead would prove difficult as the al-Shabab villa and surrounding mud houses and trees were now scorched earth.

      Ayro received training in Afghanistan in the 1990s and was an instrumental military figure as the UIC took control of Mogadishu in the second half of 2006, says the head of the BBC's Somali Service Yusuf Garaad.

      The US says al-Shabab is part of the al-Qaeda network, although correspondents say it is impossible to accurately establish those links.

      Al-Shabab leaders say it is a purely Somali movement and they deny any involvement with al-Qaeda.

      'No longer safe'

      Mr Robow warned that there would now be revenge attacks by the al-Shabab.

      "This incident will cause a lot problems to US interests in the region and the governments who support the US, by that I mean its allies who are puppets," he said, referring to Ethiopia which backs Somalia's interim government.

      "I am letting the citizens of the US and the allies know they are not going to be safe in this area."

      In its annual report on terrorism published on Wednesday, the US said al-Shabab militants in Somalia, along with al-Qaeda militants in east Africa, posed "the most serious threat to American and allied interests in the region".

      Al-Shabab has been at the forefront of a guerrilla insurgency against the government and its Ethiopian allies since early 2007.

      In recent weeks, they have briefly captured several towns in central and southern Somalia before withdrawing.

      The US has launched several air strikes against suspected extremist targets in Somalia in recent months.

      It has an anti-terror task force based in neighbouring Djibouti, and has accused Somali Islamists of harbouring those responsible for the 1998 attacks on its embassies in Kenya and Tanzania.

      The Islamists denied this.

      Somalia has not had an effective national government since 1991.

      news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7376760.stm

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