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Re: Can a religion or spirituality be truly unifying?
Sat, July 5, 2008 - 8:04 PMSure, if you can get everyone to agree on what we should get on the Pizza -
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Re: Can a religion or spirituality be truly unifying?
Sat, July 5, 2008 - 8:12 PMNot the same thing, Dustin.
In fact, religion is words on paper or thoughts in the mind,
pretty much removed from being a thing. Sure, there is some
paper detritus roundabouts. But that is but the least of its reality.
You're ordering pizza? I want pepperoni and pineapple.
Now, what about this topic would you find unifying even in theory? -
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Re: Can a religion or spirituality be truly unifying?
Sat, July 5, 2008 - 8:34 PMNo, because it would expect that people totally agree on something, at least to the point they weren't willing to go separate ways. Religion can be no more unifying then government can -
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Re: Can a religion or spirituality be truly unifying?
Sat, July 5, 2008 - 8:49 PMI think we should wait for some other opinions.
Right now this would be a stalemate, because I feel
differently than you (obviously). -
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Re: Can a religion or spirituality be truly unifying?
Sun, July 6, 2008 - 6:52 AMI agree with Dustin
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Re: Can a religion or spirituality be truly unifying?
Sat, July 5, 2008 - 9:56 PMReligion can be far more unifying than government, unless we are talking about Divine Right Kingship, which brings us back to religion.
One can hardly say government unifies - they come and they go.
Society unifies strongly, with a strong sense of "we", but "we" implies "them", so total unification is unlikely, save for the little green men coming on the scene.
Religion can unify, and the paleo-anthropologic record shows most of the earliest handiwork of man to be at minimum, shamanistic. Religion allowed our earliest forebears to gather and work together. By calling upon a higher power, disputes could be settled peacefully, and leaders deposed or shunned, and driven from the tribe. But these were creatures struggling to exist. Lacking a dangerous environment lessens the need for religion, and negates its impact.
Probably the most unified religious group now in existence are the Orthodox Jews. The Jews have maintained their spirituality for some 3,000 years. But through every generation, there's been someone on their backs, so we return again to a hostile environment. ( It is interesting to note the Jewish concept of the coming of a unified spiritual word contains no violent upheaval)
It appears, sadly, no religion or spirituality can be truly unifying lacking an environment requiring such unification.
The closest thing we have to a unifying "spirituality" today is consumerism.
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Re: Can a religion or spirituality be truly unifying?
Sat, July 5, 2008 - 11:44 PMUnification isnt necessarily a high priority for me. I like diversity, autonomy, and I like that there there is some meaningful variety.
I dont think that we need to all follow the same religion and nor do I think we need a Communist dictatorship to suppress all religion and spirituality. Instead I think its enough to promote secular government, support the separation of church and state, and just learn to mind our own business.
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Unsu...
Re: Can a religion or spirituality be truly unifying?
Sun, July 6, 2008 - 3:37 AMNo. All religions must resort to force and violence in order to seize and maintain political power, given that there is always an informed, vocal minority who will speak out against the ignorant, myth and fantasy-based views of the clerics, mullas, priests, popes, gurus, etc. -
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Re: Can a religion or spirituality be truly unifying?
Sun, July 6, 2008 - 6:30 AMGood points from sentience and jort.
I get slightly nauseous listening to Obama suck up to the evangelists in his native tongue. Jesus H., are we unleashing a monster?
The difference between dawn religions and the new fangled, myth based stuff, is that the ancients based their worship on the celebration of honest, physical events, such as celestial calender events or other such physical events.
It's fairly easy to feel the difference between the full and new moon nights, summer solstice versus winter, etc., but getting everyone to agree on celebrating jesus' birthday on December 25, by buying a toaster for your mom just plain lacks the unifying punch. -
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Re: Can a religion or spirituality be truly unifying?
Sun, July 6, 2008 - 7:28 AM"but getting everyone to agree on celebrating jesus' birthday on December 25, by buying a toaster for your mom just plain lacks the unifying punch."
That is, unless you're the guy making the toaster -
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Re: Can a religion or spirituality be truly unifying?
Tue, July 8, 2008 - 1:44 AMI'm working on the toaster right now. It's my 'spirit guide'.
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Re: Can a religion or spirituality be truly unifying?
Tue, July 8, 2008 - 1:47 AMHey Jort followed me here, into this thread.
Big surprise. First post to Pol in this incarnation, Jort?
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Re: Can a religion or spirituality be truly unifying?
Sun, July 6, 2008 - 11:46 AMSports can be unifying. Music can be unifying. Hatred can be unifying. Drugs and alcohol can be unifying. Terrible disasters can be extremely unifying.
And, of course, religions can obviously be unifying. -
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Re: Can a religion or spirituality be truly unifying?
Sun, July 6, 2008 - 12:13 PMthis reminds me of that Smiths song, Ask:
if it's not love then it's the bomb that will bring us together.
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Re: Can a religion or spirituality be truly unifying?
Sun, July 6, 2008 - 1:17 PMI don't think so. It's an intensely personal experience, and sharing it is akin to sexual intimacy; differences in religion become very heated.
Religion / spirituality should be treated like alcohol, guns, and porn. -
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Re: Can a religion or spirituality be truly unifying?
Tue, July 8, 2008 - 1:45 AM<alcohol, guns, and porn>
Kinda like the ATF?
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Re: Can a religion or spirituality be truly unifying?
Sun, July 6, 2008 - 4:50 PMNo, unless everyone follows the same religion, which they don't. Religion divides people.
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Re: Can a religion or spirituality be truly unifying?
Tue, July 8, 2008 - 1:47 AMReligions are control systems that train you to follow orders and believe patently false things. -
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Re: Can a religion or spirituality be truly unifying?
Tue, July 8, 2008 - 1:55 AM"Religions are control systems that train you to follow orders and believe patently false things. "
I think that can be somewhat of an over generalization. I definitely see that in some of the larger religious institutions, but I think that opinion is less accurate if you were using it to describe some of the North American indigenous traditions, or perhaps Taoism.
Atheism is a rational perspective but I dont buy into that authoritarian communist propaganda that says we need a strong arm government to suppress religion with violence because these boogieman religions are going to rob us of our freedom if we allow people to attend. -
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Re: Can a religion or spirituality be truly unifying?
Tue, July 8, 2008 - 1:57 AMReligion and spirituality are two different things. -
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Re: religion / spirituality
Tue, July 8, 2008 - 2:25 AMI hear that repeated a lot; I think it's not very well considered.
"Spirituality" seems to be code for "religion but without the parts I don't like".
Religion and fantasy are two different things - religion and spirituality are two words we use to describe one basic thing that comes in many flavors.
What separates religion from spirituality? Most who claim to be "spiritual but nonreligious" will say that spirituality per se doesn't rely on boundaries, strictures, and doctrine for its validity - but this is just a reflection of an ignorant and prejudiced view of religion as a whole.
I suggest that, in fact, religion and spirituality are precisely the same thing.
I also suggest that while the emerging religion of "spiritualitynotreligion" may yet canonize and separate from the New Age whence it springs we all know it pretty well as old-fashioned "muddling through it myself with some mysticism and some wine or what else have you got". -
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Re: religion / spirituality
Tue, July 8, 2008 - 3:30 AMLoki, religion as it exists today is a system of control. Saying its the same as spirituality is literally false since spirituality very clearly is NOT religion. Look the definitions up in a dictionary, dan-o. -
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Re: religion / spirituality
Tue, July 8, 2008 - 4:56 AMRather than bore you with a lot of tales you're probably not interested in, I'll just mention that I have looked into the ideas involved with a certain amount of thoroughness.
Your feelings about religion - and the various dictionary definitions of the terms involved - are only a very filtered and perfunctory attempt at explaining the place that beliefs inhabit in the human experience. Saying that "religion" as an abstract is - whatever you want to say it is or has become - is far too simplistic to be adequate as a way of dismissing religion.
All that aside - spirituality, belief itself, could also be described (and dismissed) as a "system of control". Self control, self manipulation, conformity to a subculture, addiction to trance, addiction to ecstasy - if the lens you're using is equally applied, then many other institutions and canards of belief can be dismissed. What can't be ignored - and what I see as the crux of the misunderstanding when that particular comparison is casually made - is the immense impact on the behavior and perceptions that the process of ritualized mystery, the freedom of transcendence, and the awe that attends most personal experience of divinity are very much real phenomena. Deliberately ignoring the significance that these hold for individual people is not just ignorant, but hateful and dehumanizing. Misunderstanding religion is not a crime, but arrogantly insulting what is inarguably one of the most poignant and human experiences of billions of people is fucked up, man. Fucking stupid and wrong. -
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Re: religion / spirituality
Tue, July 8, 2008 - 8:35 PMThis may be the simple fact: The near image or God that reflects on our needs
is a product of our musings about it. This is retained over thousands of years.
'Building up the forms', it is said. Sorry to say, but because most people's
imaginings of these things are so primitive, to some extent its interaction with
us is similarly limited and relatively primitive. Look at the type of people that
pine for an afterlife.... not the most compassionate. So.... to tell you what one
experiences when trying to work with these forms, even contemplate them
while having the relevant system in mind, almost as backup and protection:
a undermining of all that has gone by with them, burning away the dross,
the dregs. It takes gumption, but it has to be done. Refining God. Destroying
the old damaged human-reflecting forms that have refused to die. Look at
our society: a bunch of ill-educated atavistic brutal children, creating a picture
of a Creator little better than a petulant Greek Man-God, yet vested with so
much more power, being monotheistic. Presto-change-o! -
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Re: religion / spirituality
Wed, July 9, 2008 - 12:00 AM>>This may be the simple fact: The near image or God that reflects on our needs
is a product of our musings about it. <<
Sure, that's a theory. Have you researched it at all? Or are you all set with being prejudiced toward the religious on the predication that you know better than they do, and that all their spiritual thoughts are the product of stupid fantasy?
It's easy to draw a frame around a topic and draw attention to the frame as if it is a "fact" - it's a tactic I make use of deliberately on occasion to bluff and baffle the minds of opponents in games, but it's a pretty poor way to view reality, in my opinion. I think that science's method shows the way toward discovery, and there is no particular reason not to focus the scientific lens on religion just as you would the weather, or geology, or crowd behavior.
Starting with an assumption is bad science. Atheists and theists alike make the same mistake, in that regard, all the time. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: religion / spirituality
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 12:44 AM"Or are you all set with being prejudiced toward the religious on the predication that you know better than they do,
and that all their spiritual thoughts are the product of stupid fantasy?"
Loki you know nowhere did I say these representations were 'stupid fantasies'. You're reading a judgment-condition into
what I typed. I'm just saying the belief structures have created something that best pictures what humans were at their worst,
not what they could be at their best. It's a ramshackle picture dependent on what people subconsciously think they stand
to win by putting their belief in God. What I mean by that is that that faith is remarkably predicated on self-interest. Therefore
not altruistic in its highest ideal, as far as the individual is concerned. It's not like the believer wishes for _someone else_
to be 'saved' by Jesus or given the boon of Heaven. They wish it upon themselves. While hypocritically degrading their own
moral standard. Just look at how willing Christians are to participate in killing. I guess the double whammy of the Ten
Commandments and the biblical advent of Jesus' sacrifice mean nothing while killing is still profitable. Those sorts of
things undermine the supposed ideal of God people profess to hold. They are hypocritical concerning their belief.
Might as well state that a 'crusade' is tantamount to a 'jihad', especially given the contemporary occurrences. -
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Re: religion / spirituality
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 1:14 AMI see religion and spirituality as the inner and otter form of the same thing. Religion is the exoteric practice. Whether this experience is based on proteins and firing neurons or something greater will be a topic of much debate, but I understand spirituality to be the internal aspect of religion, not an alternative to religion....necessarily.
Can you have the internal experience without at least some external and perhaps codified practice? Maybe.
Can you have the external religion as a community fellowship, go through the motions and rituals but have no spiritual experience from the process? Absolutely you can.
But if you have a fellowship....even a Taoist fellowship, adopt a set of practices like meditation, read from the Tao Te Ching....well, thats religion. Spirituality is the subjective aspect of religion. There is a difference in connotation, but they are not totally seperate or diametrically opposed.
In my opinion, some religious traditions are more harmful than others....Quakers seem cool...They are vary open to a variety of beliefs and you dont even have to believe in the bible...but they do have some common beliefs and principles that they share as Quakers, so they are a religious and a spiritual movement.
In my opinion religion should be kept away from politics. Politics corrupts religion as much as religion corrupts politics. You put the two together and you come up with ideas like the divine right of kings and holy war.....not that the state wouldnt find another excuse for the exact same behavior in the absence of religion.
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Re: religion / spirituality
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 1:37 AMThe judgment is there; the hyperbole was mine, true enough, but the language was yours. If you're agreeing that religion today is only a control mechanism, and referring to the religious beliefs of most or even some others as "dross and dregs", then you're prejudiced and ignorant regarding religion, as you're expressing an opinion based thereupon. If the words sting, then you're reading me correctly. The language is accurate. Religion is scapegoated by many - including myself on occasion - but waving one's rod over the whole of religiondom and rendering a simplistic description is both prejudiced, and ignorant.
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Re: religion / spirituality
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 12:51 AM>>the belief structures have created something that best pictures what humans were at their worst,
not what they could be at their best. It's a ramshackle picture dependent on what people subconsciously think they stand
to win by putting their belief in God<<
I think you're imputing this to individuals based on your perception of a mass. People win social acceptance via religion; that's a primary evolutionary advantage that religion confers. The beliefs derived from / programmed by religion are technology for enhancing the quality of the society according to moral and cultural values.
It's those values that, in my opinion, deserve more of your scrutiny than the technology that implements those values (religion per se).
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Re: religion / spirituality
Tue, July 8, 2008 - 6:59 AM>> Loki, religion as it exists today is a system of control. <<
The same is equally true of education, art, popular music - even (especially!) technology. All of these things "exist today as systems of control" only because they are used that way - not because they are inherently or inevitably "systems of control".
Also - these things ARE NOT ALWAYS, even "today", used to control. Education is mostly used to control people - and it does a damned good job of that - but there are lots of wonderful, creative teachers out there who are subverting the system. The same is true in religion, art, technology, etc. These are tools - they can be used for good or otherwise.
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Re: Can a religion or spirituality be truly unifying?
Tue, July 8, 2008 - 2:25 AMYou're pretty much right, cDub. So I mean something that can allow for
the entrance of other belief systems into its fold, and is more mystical
and esoteric though precise rather than plain dull codified dead and
exoteric. I think that for an example the tree of life has much in common
with the system of chakras, though I know very little about the latter.
Ida and Pingala, with Sushumna:
www.tantra-kundalini.com/nadis.htm
http://logos_endless_summer.tripod.com/id131.html
not being that far from the kabalistic Jachin and Boaz:
images.tribe.net/tribe/upl...8bf.medium
And there is a variant for The Tao. -
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Re: Can a religion or spirituality be truly unifying?
Tue, July 8, 2008 - 2:28 AMWhat's with the link function here?
Go to my pics for that last one.
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Re: Can a religion or spirituality be truly unifying?
Tue, July 8, 2008 - 2:57 AMno -
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Re: Can a religion or spirituality be truly unifying?
Tue, July 8, 2008 - 3:08 AMI'm not keeping score, but....
have you bothered to notice how those esoteric systems largely match up?
Two extremes, and a balancing line between them. I'll look for the Taoist one.
people.tribe.net/5f5a5c1f-...a417d9f8bf
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