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SAN ANTONIO (AFP) - Armed gunmen Thursday killed seven people and wounded up to 30 others in a deadly shooting spree at Fort Hood military base in Texas, US officials said.
One gunman was in custody after the rampage as security forces hunted for at least one more shooter on the loose, Sergeant Tim Volkert, a spokesman for the Fort Hood base, told AFP, confirming that seven people had been shot dead.
Both gunmen were wearing military uniform, but it was not immediately clear if they were soldiers or in disguise, Texas Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison said.
It was too early to determine a motive for the attack on the biggest US military base in the world in Killeen, in central Texas, a spokesman for Homeland Security added.
President Barack Obama had been informed of the shooting and was to give a statement, White House officials said, as staff in the situation room monitored the unfolding drama.
"Department of Emergency Services confirmed at approximately 1:30 pm November 5 that more than one shooter fired shots into the Soldiers Readiness Processing Center and Hoowze Theater on Fort Hood," a statement from the base said.
"Emergency personnel have responded to the scene and evacuated several wounded."
The shooting erupted first in the theater where a graduation ceremony for locals schools was being held, a Pentagon official said.
Gunfire then broke out in the soldier processing center at the base which has up to 29,000 troops and civilians most of whom have completed extensive tours of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Base spokesman Sergeant Major Jamie Poston told CNN television the military was "not sure right now" what had happened.
"At this point we're looking for the other shooter.... Emergency services responded. Have evacuated a number of wounded," he added.
"We are on the lookout for the second shooter," Poston said.
A Killeen police department spokeswoman warned there were still suspects at large. "All the suspects are not in custody at this time," she told AFP. "I know they have active shooters out there."
MSNBC reported speculation of a third gunman. One of the shooters at large was believed to have a high-powered sniper rifle, and was holed up in a building surrounded by SWAT teams, MSNBC said.
Senator Hutchison said that up to 30 people had been wounded and told CNN that two of the gunmen were wearing military uniform, but it remained unclear whether they were soldiers.
"I am shocked and saddened by today?s outburst of violence at Fort Hood that has cost seven of our brave service members their lives and has gravely injured others. My heart goes out to their loved ones," she added in a statement.
Local congressman John Carter said the gunfire had erupted ahead of a graduation ceremony when one of his aides was warned of gunfire.
"A soldier came running up to him saying, "sir, don't go over there. They are -- somebody is shooting over there," Carter told MSNBC.
"When the soldier ran by him, he saw the soldier didn't know it, but he was wounded. So, he went into the building and they stopped him, because he had been shot.
Fort Hood has been working to rehabilitate many soldiers suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome, Carter added.
A message on Fort Hood's website -- the headquarters of the Army 3rd Corps, the 4th Infantry Division and the 1st Cavalry Division -- said it was closed due to an emergency. All those units have seen extensive duty in Iraq.
SAN ANTONIO (AFP) - Armed gunmen Thursday killed seven people and wounded up to 30 others in a deadly shooting spree at Fort Hood military base in Texas, US officials said.
One gunman was in custody after the rampage as security forces hunted for at least one more shooter on the loose, Sergeant Tim Volkert, a spokesman for the Fort Hood base, told AFP, confirming that seven people had been shot dead.
Both gunmen were wearing military uniform, but it was not immediately clear if they were soldiers or in disguise, Texas Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison said.
It was too early to determine a motive for the attack on the biggest US military base in the world in Killeen, in central Texas, a spokesman for Homeland Security added.
President Barack Obama had been informed of the shooting and was to give a statement, White House officials said, as staff in the situation room monitored the unfolding drama.
"Department of Emergency Services confirmed at approximately 1:30 pm November 5 that more than one shooter fired shots into the Soldiers Readiness Processing Center and Hoowze Theater on Fort Hood," a statement from the base said.
"Emergency personnel have responded to the scene and evacuated several wounded."
The shooting erupted first in the theater where a graduation ceremony for locals schools was being held, a Pentagon official said.
Gunfire then broke out in the soldier processing center at the base which has up to 29,000 troops and civilians most of whom have completed extensive tours of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Base spokesman Sergeant Major Jamie Poston told CNN television the military was "not sure right now" what had happened.
"At this point we're looking for the other shooter.... Emergency services responded. Have evacuated a number of wounded," he added.
"We are on the lookout for the second shooter," Poston said.
A Killeen police department spokeswoman warned there were still suspects at large. "All the suspects are not in custody at this time," she told AFP. "I know they have active shooters out there."
MSNBC reported speculation of a third gunman. One of the shooters at large was believed to have a high-powered sniper rifle, and was holed up in a building surrounded by SWAT teams, MSNBC said.
Senator Hutchison said that up to 30 people had been wounded and told CNN that two of the gunmen were wearing military uniform, but it remained unclear whether they were soldiers.
"I am shocked and saddened by today?s outburst of violence at Fort Hood that has cost seven of our brave service members their lives and has gravely injured others. My heart goes out to their loved ones," she added in a statement.
Local congressman John Carter said the gunfire had erupted ahead of a graduation ceremony when one of his aides was warned of gunfire.
"A soldier came running up to him saying, "sir, don't go over there. They are -- somebody is shooting over there," Carter told MSNBC.
"When the soldier ran by him, he saw the soldier didn't know it, but he was wounded. So, he went into the building and they stopped him, because he had been shot.
Fort Hood has been working to rehabilitate many soldiers suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome, Carter added.
A message on Fort Hood's website -- the headquarters of the Army 3rd Corps, the 4th Infantry Division and the 1st Cavalry Division -- said it was closed due to an emergency. All those units have seen extensive duty in Iraq.
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 2:30 PMI just heard about this. Such tragic news. Expect this to be the next media circus. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 2:30 PMI hear 12 dead is the new total.
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 2:44 PMJenna Bush needs to SHUT UP and GO HOME and STAY HOME.
This is not a stupid drill, honey. Slap that ass Lauer for being too stupid to look at, AND GO BACK TO HUBBY.
At a riot, an inciter may be a relative innocent, so punk Matt Lauer, if he keeps on, after this, a pimp and punk, inciting riot, like little Cheney. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 3:07 PMYou're off your meds again, Bob. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 3:21 PM<< You're off your meds again, Bob. >>
Shhh, Erika! Bob's channeling 2003...
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Fri, November 13, 2009 - 4:11 PMEnrika, Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead: "You're off your meds again, Bob."
fuzzypeaches702, President Obama Speaks on Fort Hood back to bush-league: "U are by far 1 goofy son of a bitch! Eat shit asshole!!!"
When the BRATS were sent back to BRITAIN, they left their offal, in Jerusalem, called a hot, new word, since from their Pope's SHIT for brains, they could get God to tell them, they had a couple of things to do, before they could stay, in Jerusalem, next in the Victorian Crusade, 1882: invade Beijing, through Shiites in Iran. Fart hard for bon Jovi, on Texas-TV!
Mr.O'Bungle tried to block Burris; Catholic cops shot young blacks, including Oscar Grant in California. Pigs incited riot, Bam notified no courts, and in Cali after swearing in, Bam incited shooting of 5 OPD on 3/22/09, had downlow beer'S', winked at the Honduran coups, and with McCain's bush-pilots, Bam farts hard in Texas! Chase no bin Laden for Palin, bon Jovi, Jenna Bush, Giuliani, Daves, Cones, or with uranium-ammo sprayers. Pigs jacked Bonds, for his #756 remark, ISAIAH, to damn Israel.
What health care gets passed, when Senator Hailey Joel sees dead people of the near future, pretending AF1 and 2 will fly, high, free, bird?
Your cunt stinks, Enrika. When you wash it, your septicemia won't be able to vote for Barack, anymore. Don't fart too hard with Barack in there.
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 3:20 PMUm, can we now officially drive a stake in the heart of the myth that having lots of guns around keeps people safer...? -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 4:18 PM"Um, can we now officially drive a stake in the heart of the myth that having lots of guns around keeps people safer...?"
Hasty generalization fallacy -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 4:42 PM<Hasty generalization fallacy >
I'm just sayin- Army base is full of armed people, but 11 people were murdered (with those oh-so-convenient, easily concealable handguns) before the perp was killed himself. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 5:28 PMPer available weaponry per hour per capita, the homicide rate inside military facilities is still much lower than in civilian settings.
Why do you think I used to suggest to so many young black and hispanic males I knew living in SF's Bayview, Hunter's Point and Mission districts that they would be better off in Iraq or Afghanistan?
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 5:45 PM<Per available weaponry per hour per capita, the homicide rate inside military facilities is still much lower than in civilian settings. >
Well gee, let's just ignore all the differing environmental factors between a military base and a poor inner city neighborhood and you might just have a point.
I'm just saying all those guns being carried around by trained personnel weren't enough to keep people safe from a couple of folks who can just pull out a handgun or two and start firing.
<Why do you think I used to suggest to so many young black and hispanic males I knew living in SF's Bayview, Hunter's Point and Mission districts that they would be better off in Iraq or Afghanistan? >
Umm, because you're kind of clueless?
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Fri, November 6, 2009 - 12:05 PMThere are many important differences between the environments.
One is that people on U.S. military bases actually do not expect to be shot at by anybody without at least some kind of warning.
That is, the bases make people feel so safe that they take safety for granted. In this one anomalous instance, that worked out badly.
Maybe something can be done about the way people on the bases think about what the threats against them really are, but getting rid
of the guns would probably be counterproductive.
<Why do you think I used to suggest to so many young black and hispanic males I knew living in SF's Bayview, Hunter's Point and Mission districts that they would be better off in Iraq or Afghanistan? >
Umm, because you're kind of clueless?
No one to whom I mentioned it saw it that way. Mostly, I pointed it out to my co-workers at McD every time they mentioned anything about Iraq or Afghanistan being comparatively dangerous places. A lot of those new prayer candles I would see on the sidewalks of the Mission while I walked to and from work were for people whose identities were mistaken, or people who were targeted demographically; people of the same age, race and sex as my co-workers who just didn't happen to have Uncle Sam or The Clown backing them up.
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Fri, November 6, 2009 - 10:46 PMDon't the Gun Rights people mostly end up shooting themselves?
> Army base is full of armed people, but 11 people were murdered -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 6:56 PM"Don't the Gun Rights people mostly end up shooting themselves? "
actually, this is a myth that liberal believe in. And even many of them carry guns also.
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 6:49 PMKelly: Um, can we now officially drive a stake in the heart of the myth that having lots of guns around keeps people safer...?
No politicizing tragedy here! (I wonder if Kelly would disarm the Military also. Surely if they would all have been unarmed at least one person would not have suffered any wounds, Major Nidal Malik Hasan!) -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 1:15 PM<<No politicizing tragedy here!
Yes you are, it is a trend. As a veteran, I find your kind abhorent.
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 3:22 PMJust saw this in the NYTimes:
"At least one gunman killed 11 soldiers and wounded 31 others on Thursday afternoon at Fort Hood in Texas. Authorities then killed the gunman, who was identified as Malik Nadal Hasan, an Army major who was about to be deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan."
Oh frick. I don't even want to think about the wave of anti-Arab/Muslim hysteria THAT'S going to unleash... -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 3:25 PMFrom MSNBC's Twitter feed: "Associated Press reports the #FortHood shooting suspect was an Army mental health professional, according to a defense official."
Something tells me he wasn't a very good mental health professional. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 3:48 PM
He was an MD. A psychiatrist with specialization in PTSD. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 4:28 PM -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 4:44 PMOh, it's perfectly likely it's just a case of someone snapping and going all postal with no connection to politics or religion at all, but even if that is the case I suspect the guy's name is still going to pour fuel on the wingnut fire. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 5:29 PMMaybe he was trying to generate subject matter for a book he was writing, and just got carried away.
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Fri, November 6, 2009 - 1:31 PM"Oh, it's perfectly likely it's just a case of someone snapping and going all postal with no connection to politics or religion at all,"
Likely? How do you know? Do you have access to the interrogation of him or his psychological records?
"I suspect the guy's name is still going to pour fuel on the wingnut fire."
Just wingnuts? Come on. How many people from all sides of the political spectrum didn't immediately wonder what the guy's name was as soon as they heard of the shooting, particularly when there was a recently busted Islamoterrorist plot foiled to shoot up a US military base? -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Mon, November 9, 2009 - 10:32 AM>"I suspect the guy's name is still going to pour fuel on the wingnut fire."
The only thing missing is the middle name 'Wayne'.
www.google.com.co/#hl=es&so...5779de947b
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 6:35 PM<Something tells me he wasn't a very good mental health professional.>
Yikes. No kidding.
<He was an MD. A psychiatrist with specialization in PTSD.>
Yow.
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 6:51 PM"Oh frick. I don't even want to think about the wave of anti-Arab/Muslim hysteria THAT'S going to unleash..."
Imagine if people start putting 2 and 2 together and realize that Islam is a violent religion, oh the backlash! Not one incidence of "backlash" has been noted anywhere, but I am sure CAIR will manufactor one if they fail to find a legitamate one soon. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Mon, November 9, 2009 - 3:08 PM<<Imagine if people start putting 2 and 2 together and realize that Islam is a violent religion
No more or less violent than Christianity. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Mon, November 9, 2009 - 5:56 PMMaybe historically they are on equal terms. But it seems absurd to claim that there isn't a predominate amount of violence tied to it in the modern world
I mean, clerics in Iran issued a Fatwa against Rushdie, over a book he wrote -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 12, 2009 - 11:40 AM" I mean, clerics in Iran issued a Fatwa against Rushdie, over a book he wrote "
And many Christians aided the Nazi's. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 12, 2009 - 11:47 AMWho's defending that superstition?
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 12, 2009 - 2:20 PM"And many Christians aided the Nazi's. "
Do you mean general layman who identified themselves as christian, at some level, or was it one of the highest authorities in Christianity? Also, can you offer documentation of this?
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 11:45 AM<<Imagine if people start putting 2 and 2 together and realize that Islam is a violent religion
Jeff: No more or less violent than Christianity.
Actually, this is false. Since both of these beliefs are supposed to be bound by their respective books and Christianity does not advocate violence, but Islam most certainly does, Islam is violent and Christianity is not. If your argument is that Christianity and Islam are equal in history in promoting violence, this is also false. Of all the religious wars of recorded history (only 6% of all wars fought), Islam is responsible for half (3%). Your argument fails here also. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 12:02 PM<<Actually, this is false. Since both of these beliefs are supposed to be bound by their respective books and Christianity does not advocate violence, but Islam most certainly does, Islam is violent and Christianity is not.
There are passages in both the Koran and the Bible that advocate violence, and there are passages in both that advocate for peace. It is all about interpretation.... such as the word Jihad, which is a word that has been coopted by the violent radical Islamists. Jihad translates as "struggle", with most Muslims understanding that it is usually in reference to an internal struggle to improve ones self. If you are speaking about the Islamists advocating violence as a demonstration, I can certainly point out the violence being comitted by Christian terrorists as well, all with the bible as justification.
<<Of all the religious wars of recorded history (only 6% of all wars fought), Islam is responsible for half (3%).
I am certain you are leaving out the crusades. Regardless, do you care to prove this assertion with something beyond a WND claim? -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 12:20 PM"with most Muslims understanding that it is usually in reference to an internal struggle to improve ones self. "
And I'm sure you have some form of research to support this?
"If you are speaking about the Islamists advocating violence as a demonstration, I can certainly point out the violence being comitted by Christian terrorists as well, all with the bible as justification. "
So you think the level of modern extremism in both religions is on an equal footing? -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 1:26 PM<<"with most Muslims understanding that it is usually in reference to an internal struggle to improve ones self. "
And I'm sure you have some form of research to support this?>>
Of course, it is there for those that care to look beyond the headlines. Sadly, American ignorance in regards to foreign faith and culture has perpetuated the myth that Jihad only = terrorism or war.
Jihad translated = struggle. It is even broken down between Greater Jihad and Lesser Jihad, with the greater Jihad given priority by Muhammed. Greater Jihad involves the internal struggle in regards to faith, whereas Jihad in regards to warfare falls in to the lesser Jihad category.
If you don't like Wikipedia as a source, feel free to google the information or look in the dictionary.
"Jihad (pronounced /dʒɪˈhɑːd/; Arabic: جهاد [dʒiˈhæːd]), an Islamic term, is a religious duty of Muslims. In Arabic, the word jihād is a noun meaning "struggle." Jihad appears frequently in the Qur'an and common usage as the idiomatic expression "striving in the way of Allah (al-jihad fi sabil Allah)".[1][2] A person engaged in jihad is called a mujahid, the plural is mujahideen.
A minority among the Sunni scholars sometimes refer to this duty as the sixth pillar of Islam, though it occupies no such official status.[3] In Twelver Shi'a Islam, however, Jihad is one of the 10 Practices of the Religion.
According to scholar John Esposito, Jihad requires Muslims to "struggle in the way of God" or "to struggle to improve one's self and/or society."[3][4] Jihad is directed against Satan's inducements, aspects of one's own self, or against a visible enemy.[1][5] The four major categories of jihad that are recognized are Jihad against one's self (Jihad al-Nafs), Jihad of the tongue (Jihad al-lisan), Jihad of the hand (Jihad al-yad), and Jihad of the sword (Jihad as-sayf).[5] Islamic military jurisprudence focuses on regulating the conditions and practice of Jihad as-sayf, the only form of warfare permissible under Islamic law, and thus the term Jihad is usually used in fiqh manuals in reference to military combat.[5][6]
Greater Jihad (controversial)
Within Islamic belief, Muhammad is said to have regarded the inner struggle for faith the "greater jihad", prioritizing it over physical fighting in defense of the Ummah, or members of the global Islamic community.[12] One famous hadith has the prophet saying: "We have returned from the lesser jihad (battle) to the greater jihad (jihad of the soul)." However this hadith is of questionable origin.[13][14] This notion has however been challanged by many great Muslim scholars. The contenders hold that the view that war is lesser Jihad is not based on sound sources. The terms Jihad-i Akbar and Jihad-i Asghar are supposedly attributed to the Prophet. However, this attribution does not have a sound basis. The chain of narrators of this narrative is very weak. Authorities of Hadith like Ibn Hajr, Ibn Taymiyyah and Al-Bani have convincingly challenged the authenticity of this narrative1. So one can safely conclude that there is no such thing as a greater Jihad or a lesser one. The word Jihad is used in the Qur’an to connote striving in the way of Allah. One particular form of such a struggle is that in which one might have to fight for Allah’s cause. This is also termed as ‘Qital’. In other words, striving in the way of Allah in whatever form one is able to in accordance with the needs that arise is what is required from a believer. Whether striving in His way in a particular form is more superior than some other one has not been indicated in any authentic source.Is Qital a lesser Jihad?
Muslim scholar Mahmoud Ayoub states that "The goal of true jihad is to attain a harmony between islam (submission), iman (faith), and ihsan (righteous living)."[15] Greater jihad can be compared to the struggle that Christians refer to as "resisting sin", i.e. fighting temptation, doubt, disbelief, or detraction. The greater jihad is about holding fast against any ideas and practices that run contrary to the Muhammad's revelations (Qur'an), sayings (Hadith) and the examples set by how he lived his life (Sunnah). This concept of jihad has does not correspond to any military action.
In Modern Standard Arabic, jihad is one of the correct terms for a struggle for any cause, violent or not, religious or secular (though كفاح kifāḥ is also used).[citation needed] For instance, Mahatma Gandhi's struggle for Indian independence is called a "jihad" in Modern Standard Arabic (as well as many other dialects of Arabic); the terminology is applied to the fight for women's liberation.[16]
In modern times, Pakistani scholar and professor Fazlur Rahman Malik has used the term to describe the struggle to establish "just moral-social order",[17] while President Habib Bourguiba of Tunisia has used it to describe the struggle for economic development in that country.[18]
Lesser Jihad (Jihad bil Saif)
Within Islamic jurisprudence jihad is the only form of warfare permissible under Islamic law, and may be declared against apostates, rebels, highway robbers, violent groups, non-Islamic leaders or non-Muslim combatants, but there are other ways to perform jihad as well, including civil disobedience. The primary aim of jihad as warfare is not the conversion of non-Muslims to Islam by force, but rather the expansion and defense of the Islamic state.[5][6][19]
In the classical manuals of Islamic jurisprudence, the rules associated with armed warfare are covered at great length.[19] Such rules include not killing women, children and non-combatants, as well as not damaging cultivated or residential areas.[20] More recently, modern Muslims have tried to re-interpret the Islamic sources, stressing that Jihad is essentially defensive warfare aimed at protecting Muslims and Islam.[19] Although some Islamic scholars have differed on the implementation of Jihad, there is consensus amongst them that the concept of jihad will always include armed struggle against persecution and oppression.[21]
Jihad has also been applied to offensive, aggressive warfare, as exemplified by Muhammad's own policies and the entire subsequent history of the spread of Islam. From the first generation of Islam, jihad ideology inspired the conquest of non-Muslim populations, forcing them to submit to Muslim rule or accept outright conversion (although conversion was not generally demanded of "Peoples of the Book," this too could be forcibly imposed on non-"Peoples of the Book"). Jihad ideologies also inspired internal civil conflict, as can be seen in early movements like the Kharijites and the contemporary Egyptian Islamic Jihad organization (which assassinated Anwar Al Sadat) as well as Jihad organizations in Lebanon, the Gulf states, and Indonesia.[3] When used to describe warfare between Islamic groups or individuals, such as al-Qaeda's attacks on civilians in Iraq, perpetrators of violence often cite collaboration with non-Islamic powers as a justification.[22] Terrorist attacks like that of September 11, 2001, which was planned and executed by radical Islamic fundamentalists, have not been sanctioned by more centrist groups of Muslims.[23]
Many believe that there is no such thing as lesser jihad, and jihad by the sword is considered most important. This hadeeth about lesser jihad also contradicts clear verses of the Qur'an.
Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiha...versial.29 -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 1:32 PM"Of course, it is there for those that care to look beyond the headlines. Sadly, American ignorance in regards to foreign faith and culture has perpetuated the myth that Jihad only = terrorism or war.
Jihad translated = struggle. It is even broken down between Greater Jihad and Lesser Jihad, with the greater Jihad given priority by Muhammed. Greater Jihad involves the internal struggle in regards to faith, whereas Jihad in regards to warfare falls in to the lesser Jihad category. "
Whoa, cowboy. You made a statement about how most Muslims interpret Jihad. So why not stop acting obtuse and actually validate your claim -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 1:44 PM<<Whoa, cowboy. You made a statement about how most Muslims interpret Jihad. So why not stop acting obtuse and actually validate your claim
The difference between the words LESSER and GREATER should be your first clue Sherlock. There is a reason that the internal struggle is called GREATER, which of course is not something lost on Muslims.
This from one of the most respected Islamic Scholars:
"Within Islam the term jihad refers to a large category of meanings. Today, however, there are attempts to isolate this term to only one form of jihad to the exclusion of all others. This includes a conception of jihad that at best refers only to armed struggle, and at worst to a barbaric form of warfare that seeks to destroy whatever peace may still remain in the world. This could not be farther from the concept of jihad as understood by Muslims throughout history and the world over. For Muslims, jihad is much more than armed struggle against an enemy from the outside for it includes constant struggles within both oneself and one's own society. When jihad actually does take the form of armed struggle, Muslims are aware that it can only be done for the sake of a just cause.
Once, upon returning from a battle, the Prophet Muhammad said to his companions, "We have returned from the lesser jihad to the greater jihad; the jihad of the soul." Here the term jihad refers to the spiritual exercise of opposing the lower self. This is referred to as the greater jihad since people spend their entire lives struggling against the base desires within them that can harm both themselves and those around them.
Jihad is also used to refer to the pilgrimage to Mecca. When Aishah, the wife of the Prophet, was asked about the jihad of women, she said, "Your jihad is to make the pilgrimage." Here the pilgrimage is the lesser jihad of women and the elderly who are not members of the armies that fight in defense of the country, so pilgrimage, which is a journey that is comprised of great difficulties due to the crowds and the physically demanding nature of its practices, is called jihad. The term jihad is also used to refer to speaking truth to those in power, so in Islam government oversight is a form of jihad.
In addition to these meanings, the term jihad refers to the defense of a nation or a just cause. This is what jihad was legislated for, and it must be differentiated from indiscriminate killing by the condition that it be "in the way of God," meaning to struggle in self-defense, to alleviate tyranny, or to prevent aggression. These are the characteristics that differentiate jihad from killing, which is a crime. These characteristics that amount to "in the way of God" are summed up in the Quran, "Fight in the way of God against those who wage war against you, but do not commit aggression - for, verily, God does not love aggressors," [Quran, 2:190]. This verse summarizes everything that has been agreed upon concerning guidelines of warfare, including the first and second Geneva Conventions.
As for suicide bombing, Islam forbids suicide, it forbids the taking of one's own life. In addition, Islam forbids aggression against others. Attacking civilians, women, children, and the elderly by blowing oneself up is absolutely forbidden in Islam. No excuse can be made for the crimes committed in New York, Spain, and London, and anyone who tries to make excuses for these acts is ignorant of Islamic law (shari'ah), and their excuses are a result of extremism and ignorance.
Gender Equality in Islam
Islam adopts the perspective of gender equality, but it does not endorse the idea of gender equivalency. Islam affirms the difference between the natural dispositions and constitutions of men and women. Women have the ability to bear and nurse children, whereas men do not, so there is a lack of equivalency in regards to the physical and psychological make-up of men and women, but both enjoy rights and bear responsibilities, in which respect they are equal.
It is from this perspective that the Quran says, "Do not covet the bounties which God has bestowed more abundantly on some of you than on others. Men shall have a benefit from what they earn, and women shall have a benefit from what they earn. Ask, therefore, God [to give you] out of His bounty," [Quran, 4:32] which is reaffirmed by the saying of the Prophet, "God condems those men who seek to be like women, and He condemns those women who strive to be like men." This is forbidden, and Muslims are enjoined to accept what has been allotted them by God; whether they are men or women they should be pleased with those particular masculine and feminine traits that God has bestowed upon them, and they should pray that God give them success in truly realizing them. The Quran says, "And women have rights similar to those [of men] over them in kindness," [Quran, 2:228]. In this verse that speaks of rights and duties the Quran has affirmed equality. The verse continues and says, "And men are a degree above them." This degree is clarified in another verse that discusses the issue of maintenance, which is a responsibility rather than an honor, "Men shall take full care of women with the bounties which God has bestowed more abundantly on the former than on the latter, and with what they may spend out of their possessions," [Quran, 4:34].
Islam made it obligatory for men to support and care for women, similarly this is one of the rights that women can demand of men. While women are permitted to remain at home, men are obligated to seek a means of sustenance for them. Women are free to care for their children and take on the role of educator and nurturer of the life that originated inside of them. In this respect Islam affords women the highest status. When asked whom one should love and respect the most, the Prophet said, "Your mother, then your mother, then your mother, then your father."
Islam says, "Men and women are brother and sister," meaning, "women have rights similar to those [of men] over them in kindness." The status afforded men is one of responsibility, not honor. There is no prejudice in Islamic doctrine that prefers men over women. The Quran does not say it has preferred men over women, it says, "Do not covet the bounties which God has bestowed more abundantly on some of you than on others." Some men may desire the praiseworthy characteristics of women, just like some men desire in women for the praiseworthy characteristics of men, but God forbade this desire. God gave preference to women over men in certain ways, but at the same time He gave preference to men over women others, each regarding particular traits He bestowed upon them. Everyone should be thankful for that which they have been given and strive to fulfill the potential of their unique characteristics. Men should be content with their masculinity, and women should be content with their femininity.
There is a disparity between men and women, but there is no discrimination. Gender discrimination is something that came from outside of Islam, from pre-Islamic concepts that were passed down. This is a perspective that claims women are to blame for humanity's being dispelled from the Garden, but this is not the Quranic version of the story, the Quran states, "Satan caused them both to stumble therein, and thus brought about the loss of their erstwhile state," [Quran, 2:36]. The non-Quranic perspective views women as the cause of sin, a seductress, and a devil, however Islam rejects this. The Quran speaks of, "And the righteous women are the truly devout ones, who guard the intimacy which God has [ordained to be] guarded," [Quran, 4:34]. These are words that view women as human beings equal to men and sharing responsibilities side by side. This other perspective that was passed down by various peoples and religions has spilled over into the Islamic perspective. But Islam, when unadulterated by social customs and inherited cultural traditions, views men and women equitably without recourse to bias or discrimination.
Freedom of Religion in Islam
The essential question before us is can a person who is Muslim choose a religion other than Islam? The answer is yes, they can, because the Quran says, "Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion," [Quran, 109:6], and, "Whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve," [Quran, 18:29], and, "There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is distinct from error," [Quran, 2:256].
These verses from the Quran discuss a freedom that God affords all people. But from a religious perspective, the act of abandoning one's religion is a sin punishable by God on the Day of Judgment. If the case in question is one of merely rejecting faith, then there is no worldly punishment. If, however, the crime of undermining the foundations of the society is added to the sin of apostasy, then the case must be referred to a judicial system whose role is to protect the integrity of the society. Otherwise, the matter is left until the Day of Judgment, and it is not to be dealt with in the life of this world. It is an issue of conscience, and it is between the individual and God. In the life of this world, "There is no compulsion in religion," in the life of this world, "Unto you your religion and unto me my religion," and in the life of this world, "He who wills believes and he who wills disbelieves," while bearing in mind that God will punish this sin on the Day of Judgment, unless it is combined with an attempt to undermine the stability of the society, in which case it is the society that holds them to account, not Islam.
All religions have doctrinal points that define what it is to be an adherent of that religion. These are divine injunctions that form the basis of every religion, but they are not a means for imposing a certain system of belief on others by force. According to Islam, it is not permitted for Muslims to reject their faith, so if a Muslim were to leave Islam and adopt another religion, they would thereby be committing a sin in the eyes of Islam. Religious belief and practice is a personal matter, and society only intervenes when that personal matter becomes public and threatens the well-being of its members.
In some cases, this sin of the individual may also represent a greater break with the commonly held values of a society in an attempt to undermine its foundations or even attack its citizenry. Depending on the circumstances, this may reach the level of a crime of sedition against one's society. Penalizing this sedition may be at odds with some conceptions of freedom that would go so far as to ensure people the freedom to destroy the society in which they live. This is a freedom that we do not allow since preservation of the society takes precedence over personal freedoms. This was the basis of the Islamic perspective on apostasy when committed at certain times and under certain circumstances.
www.muslimbridges.org/content...766/107/ -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 1:48 PMJeff, none of this stuff validates your claim about how "most" Muslims interpret the word Jihad
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 1:55 PMYes it does. You are not paying attention to my original statement. ""with most Muslims understanding that it is usually in reference to an internal struggle to improve ones self. " USUALLY.
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 2:05 PM"Yes it does. "
No it does not, and trying to validate your claim by verbosity and appeals to authority don't work because they are logical fallicies
"You are not paying attention to my original statement. ""with most Muslims understanding that it is usually in reference to an internal struggle to improve ones self"
No, I am fully aware of what you said. It's just you fail to support this assertion in any meaningful or logical way -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 6:47 PMThe Koran itself indicates that the internal struggle type of Jihad is greater, as do the vast majority of Islamic and religous scholars. Not to mention the millions of Muslims who engage in the internal Jihad on a daily basis, and don't approach vilent Jihad at all. I can see how one might think that the lesser Jihad is predominent in the Muslim world if you don't look beyond sensationalist headlines. Me? I have an actual interest in reality. Jihad is EVERY Muslims duty, and if every Muslim adhered to the violent lesser Jihad, we would have a much bigger terrorism problem on our hands. And yet Millions of Muslims know their Jihad duty, and yet primarily engage in prayer and reflection as opposed to violence. Pretty simple of one stops to educate themself. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 7:31 PM"The Koran itself indicates that the internal struggle type of Jihad is greater"
One, in places like Afghanistan the illiteracy rate hovers around 80%
Second, your claim concerned interpretation. What you read into the Koran will not be the same as some farmer in Syria
"Not to mention the millions of Muslims who engage in the internal Jihad on a daily basis, and don't approach vilent Jihad at all."
Again, you make an assertion that you have no evidence for. You don't have any information on the internal thinking of these individuals. So stop just making stuff up
"I can see how one might think that the lesser Jihad is predominent in the Muslim world if you don't look beyond sensationalist headlines. Me? I have an actual interest in reality. Jihad is EVERY Muslims duty, and if every Muslim adhered to the violent lesser Jihad, we would have a much bigger terrorism problem on our hands..."
Your ridicule aside, someone interpreting Jihad to mean a violent struggle of force does not necessitate them picking up the sword and waging war. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 11:54 AM<<"The Koran itself indicates that the internal struggle type of Jihad is greater"
One, in places like Afghanistan the illiteracy rate hovers around 80%>>
We are not speaking about Afghanistan, we are speaking about the Muslim world as a whole.
<<Second, your claim concerned interpretation. What you read into the Koran will not be the same as some farmer in Syria
There is no divide over the interpretations of Lesser and Greater Jihad, the words Lesser and Greater are simple and straightforward. What Islamic terrorists are doing are making strained interpretations of the justifications for lesser Jihad.
<<"Not to mention the millions of Muslims who engage in the internal Jihad on a daily basis, and don't approach vilent Jihad at all."
Again, you make an assertion that you have no evidence for.>>
internal Jihad is in regards to prayer and reflection, Millions of Muslims engage in this activity without engaging in violent acts on a daily basis. This is a simple fact that can't be denied, regardless of your false assertion that there is no evidence for this. Islamic terrorists are the minority in the Muslim world. But if you want to play ignorant and deny this, help yourself.
<<You don't have any information on the internal thinking of these individuals. So stop just making stuff up
Who said anything about internal thinking? It is obvious that you are making shit up being taht I clearly indicated that the majority of Muslims don't engage in terrorism, which is an action.
<<someone interpreting Jihad to mean a violent struggle of force does not necessitate them picking up the sword and waging war.
You are confused. This is not about interpreting the word Jihad as being iether or. There is both Lesser Jihad (violence) and Greater Jihad (internal reflection, self work, and prayer), and both of these exist in the Koran. One has emphasis over the other, hence the reason GREATER is attached to prayer and reflection. There are specific rules in the Koran regarding Lesser Jihad, what the Islamists have done is to create strained justifications for their acts of terrorism based on lesser Jihad.
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 6:51 PMP.S. To say that expert testimony does nothing to validate my claim is beyond rediculous. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 7:33 PM"P.S. To say that expert testimony does nothing to validate my claim is beyond rediculous. "
If we were talking doctrinal matters, sure you would have a point. But we are discussing how the average Muslim interprets a term.
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 12:08 PMAgain, you are confused. This is not about the word Jihad being interpreted one way or another. Both versions of Jihad are recognized, Less and Greater. Greater Jihad has priority as outlined by Muhammed himself. Lesser Jihad is recognized, but Islamists are using strained justifications for it. The word translated = struggle, the difference being that the GREATER struggle is through prayer and reflection, and LESSER Jihad being the act of physically struggling against an enemy. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 12:20 PM"Again, you are confused. This is not about the word Jihad being interpreted one way or another."
Funny, because that is the only information you have provided here. That Jihad can be interpreted in various ways (something no one ever argued against), and I fail to see where you provided any type of information on how many Muslims adhere to what interpretation
"Both versions of Jihad are recognized, Less and Greater."
First, the whole distinction of greater and lesser Jihad is a questionable premise:
<<<The Greater Jihad controversy
The Prophet is said to have called the internal Jihad the "greater Jihad".
On his return from a battle, the Prophet said: "We are finished with the lesser jihad; now we are starting the greater jihad." He explained to his followers that fighting against an outer enemy is the lesser jihad and fighting against one's self is the greater jihad (holy war).
***This quotation is regarded as unreliable*** by some scholars. They regard the use of jihad as meaning 'holy war' as the more important.>>>
www.bbc.co.uk/religion/re...ihad_2.shtml
Also, what name people decide to apply to something says little about how the general population views it. If Coke decided to call one of their products "the number one soda in the world", it wouldn't automatically make everyone think of it as the number one soda. So your entire premise is flawed
"Greater Jihad has priority as outlined by Muhammed himself. Lesser Jihad is recognized, but Islamists are using strained justifications for it."
Again, this tells me how a white guy from Portland sees Jihad, and says nothing about the billion plus Muslims of the world.
"The word translated = struggle, the difference being that the GREATER struggle is through prayer and reflection, and LESSER Jihad being the act of physically struggling against an enemy."
Again, your premise concerned the majority of Muslims, not you -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 12:33 PM<<On his return from a battle, the Prophet said: "We are finished with the lesser jihad; now we are starting the greater jihad." He explained to his followers that fighting against an outer enemy is the lesser jihad and fighting against one's self is the greater jihad (holy war).
***This quotation is regarded as unreliable*** by some scholars. They regard the use of jihad as meaning 'holy war' as the more important.>>>
Of course some regard the quotation as unreliable, those are the minority of scholors that help to create the strained justifications for lesser Jihad.
<<Also, what name people decide to apply to something says little about how the general population views it.
Exactly, which is why your quote above in regards to how SOME scholars look at Jihad does nothing to demonstrate that the majority of Muslims engage in Lesser Jihad, which of course is a rediculous assertion.
<<Again, this tells me how a white guy from Portland sees Jihad, and says nothing about the billion plus Muslims of the world.
The simple and peaceful actions of Millions of Muslims around the world demontrates this simple fact. But if you want to play the 'muslims are terrorists' religious bigotry game, help yourself.
<<"The word translated = struggle, the difference being that the GREATER struggle is through prayer and reflection, and LESSER Jihad being the act of physically struggling against an enemy."
Again, your premise concerned the majority of Muslims, not you>>
Are you Dense? This is as it is defined in the Koran itself. Indeed, the majority of Muslims engage in greater Jihad (prayer) on a daily basis without engaging in violence. These two simple facts are enough to demonstrate my point. You are dancing the "muslims are terrorists" jig if you deny these simple facts. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 12:44 PM"Of course some regard the quotation as unreliable, those are the minority of scholors that help to create the strained justifications for lesser Jihad. "
You are anything but an expert in Islam, and i would love to see you provide an *academic* quote to support this
"The simple and peaceful actions of Millions of Muslims around the world demontrates this simple fact. But if you want to play the 'muslims are terrorists' religious bigotry game, help yourself. "
Again, this is a very simple concept Jeff, people can interpret Jihad to mean "a violent struggle", yet not commit violence. And no one is arguing that most Muslims are terrorists.
"Are you Dense? This is as it is defined in the Koran itself. Indeed, the majority of Muslims engage in greater Jihad (prayer) on a daily basis without engaging in violence. These two simple facts are enough to demonstrate my point. You are dancing the "muslims are terrorists" jig if you deny these simple facts."
Jeff, as I already pointed out, places like Afghanistan have an 80% illiteracy rate, and not every literate muslim is familiar with the Koran. Just like not every christian is personally familiar with the bible.
Not to mention, I think the term Jihad comes from a hadith and not the koran -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 1:05 PM"The simple and peaceful actions of Millions of Muslims around the world demontrates this simple fact. But if you want to play the 'muslims are terrorists' religious bigotry game, help yourself. "
Also, I don't recall making any claim about how most Muslims interpret anything. I only challenged an assertion you made without any proof -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 1:37 PM<<Also, I don't recall making any claim about how most Muslims interpret anything.
you continue to focus on intrepretation of the word Jihad, when in reality it is not about a difference in interpretation. There is one meaning for the word Jihad, and that is "struggle". Within the Koran there is GREATER and LESSER struggle. And of course, that which is called GREATER is more important. Do you understand the difference between the words "greater" and "lesser"?
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 1:11 PM<<You are anything but an expert in Islam
A straw man being that I never claimed to be an expert.
According to scholar John Esposito, Jihad requires Muslims to "struggle in the way of God" or "to struggle to improve one's self and/or society."[3][4] Jihad is directed against Satan's inducements, aspects of one's own self, or against a visible enemy.[1][5] The four major categories of jihad that are recognized are Jihad against one's self (Jihad al-Nafs), Jihad of the tongue (Jihad al-lisan), Jihad of the hand (Jihad al-yad), and Jihad of the sword (Jihad as-sayf).[5] Islamic military jurisprudence focuses on regulating the conditions and practice of Jihad as-sayf, the only form of warfare permissible under Islamic law, and thus the term Jihad is usually used in fiqh manuals in reference to military combat.[5][6] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad
<<Again, this is a very simple concept Jeff, people can interpret Jihad to mean "a violent struggle", yet not commit violence. And no one is arguing that most Muslims are terrorists.
Again you are confused. This is not about interpretation, this is about the difference in both meaning and focus between Lesser Jihad and Greater Jihad. Why do you continue to pretend otherwise? The difference in meaning between lesser and greater Jihad is clear, and to pretend otherwise is willful ignorance.
<<Jeff, as I already pointed out, places like Afghanistan have an 80% illiteracy rate, and not every literate muslim is familiar with the Koran.
Who cares? We are speaking of the Muslim world as a whole.
<<Not to mention, I think the term Jihad comes from a hadith and not the koran
False. "Jihad appears frequently in the Qur'an and common usage as the idiomatic expression "striving in the way of Allah (al-jihad fi sabil Allah)".[1][2] A person engaged in jihad is called a mujahid, the plural is mujahideen." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 1:28 PM"According to scholar John Esposito, Jihad requires Muslims to "struggle in the way of God"
Your original assertion is not supported by the evidence you present:
Your assertion from above: "Of course some regard the quotation as unreliable, those ***are the minority of scholors*** that help to create the strained justifications for lesser Jihad"
"Again you are confused. This is not about interpretation, this is about the difference in both meaning and focus between Lesser Jihad and Greater Jihad."
Jeff, your original assertion was about how the majority of Muslims view Jihad.
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 1:43 PMAgain, there is no dispute that GREATER Jihad = internal struggle and that LESSER Jihad = violent struggle. My argument throughout this thread is bore out by the actions of Millions of Muslims throughout the world. Millions of Muslims only engage in the GREATER Jihad. Why? Because something that is GREATER is more important than something that is LESSER, as Muhammed and the Koran clearly indicate. This is a simple concept. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 1:52 PM"Again, there is no dispute that GREATER Jihad = internal struggle and that LESSER Jihad = violent struggle"
Really, I presented evidence that directly contradicts that claim
www.bbc.co.uk/religion/re...ihad_2.shtml
"My argument throughout this thread is bore out by the actions of Millions of Muslims throughout the world"
Look, its clear all you can do now is endlessly repeat yourself while ignoring my rebuttals. So I really have no interest in continuing this, for lack of a better word, discussion. But if you find some actual evidence to support your claim, just PM me and I'll be happy to continue the conversation -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 2:25 PM<<"Again, there is no dispute that GREATER Jihad = internal struggle and that LESSER Jihad = violent struggle"
Really, I presented evidence that directly contradicts that claim <<
You are wrong, the article confirms my definitions of Greater and Lesser Jihad -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 12, 2009 - 2:27 PMFrom the link: "This quotation is regarded as unreliable by some scholars. They regard the use of jihad as meaning 'holy war' as the more important". -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Fri, November 13, 2009 - 3:03 AMJihad is “a religious war with those who are unbelievers in the mission of Muhammad. It is an incumbent religious duty, established in the Koran and in the Traditions as a divine institution, and enjoined specially for the purpose of advancing Islam and repelling evil from Muslims.” That is how it is described in no lesser source than the Dictionary of Islam, so we should not pretend surprise if Islamic terrorists see their mission in such terms.
Ibn Warraq
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Fri, November 13, 2009 - 10:36 AM<<From the link: "This quotation is regarded as unreliable by some scholars. They regard the use of jihad as meaning 'holy war' as the more important".
Yes Dustin, there are extremist and radical scholars in the Middle East. These scholars helped groups like Al Qaeda with their justification for terrorism. And? -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Fri, November 13, 2009 - 1:10 PMJeff, you have made this statement previously and failed to back it up with any evidence. So why repeat it now? -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Fri, November 13, 2009 - 1:17 PMAre you denying that Al Qaeda used the teachings of some radical scholars? You tried to use the existence of radical scholars to demonstrate your point, but it does nothing of the sort. In other words, you failed. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Fri, November 13, 2009 - 1:29 PMJeff, you claimed a point about greater and lesser Jihad. I have shown, with collaborating evidence, that the importance of this distinction is questionable. You counter that this is only a rational followed by extremists, but so far ***failed to show any evidence for your assertion***.
The burden of proof doesn't rest on me, and I am not relying on anything but a report from the BBC (unless they are your extremists). So again, since it's clear you lack evidence to support your assertion, why repeat it? -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Fri, November 13, 2009 - 1:38 PM<<Jeff, you claimed a point about greater and lesser Jihad
Yes, GREATER has more emphasis than that which is LESSER.
<<I have shown, with collaborating evidence, that the importance of this distinction is questionable.
No, you have only shown that SOME radical clerics place more importance on LESSER Jihad, which of course we know being that they helped Al Qaeda justify their actions. The fact that they exist is not a demonstration that these are the views most widely held in the Muslim world.
<<You counter that this is only a rational followed by extremists, but so far ***failed to show any evidence for your assertion***.
The evidence lies with the fact that Millions of Muslims engage primarily in GREATER Jihad with daily prayers. The evidence lies in the fact that the Majority of the Muslim world lives a peaceful existence. The Quaran backs this up being that GREATER has more importance than that which is LESSER.
<<but a report from the BBC (unless they are your extremists).
The BBC reporting that extremist views are held by some clerics is not a demonstration that the BBC is extremist, what a silly thing to say.
<<So again, since it's clear you lack evidence to support your assertion,
Except for the obvious and observable evidence you ignore. Radical extremists engaged in a Jihad against the west are a minority of the Muslim world. This is basic knowledge. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Fri, November 13, 2009 - 1:45 PMok, so you're just going to ignore evidence that you disagree with and continue pushing your non-sourced claims
This doesn't surprise me -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Fri, November 13, 2009 - 1:49 PM<<ok, so you're just going to ignore evidence that you disagree with and continue pushing your non-sourced claims
Except that you did not present evidence that was contrary to my claims Dustin. Yes, some Radical clerics hold radical views. And? The simple fact is that the article you pulled this line about "Some Clerics" out of supports my assertion. Subseqeuntly my claims are not unsourced, you sourced them for me buddy. :)
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 1:34 PM<<So you think the level of modern extremism in both religions is on an equal footing?
Certainly not, Christianity has had the opportunity to grow up to a certain extent. Whereas the people in the middle east are just pissed off in general, and it takes little for them to find justification for action. Why are they pissed off? Western powers carved up the middle east and installed dictators and kings that have historically repressed their people, kept women down, and have promoted radical religious education over and above any sort of well rounded education, resulting in a populace that has been kept purposefully ignorant. These dictators and kings of have used the west as a scapegout for their own failings, allowing the populace to focus their anger against us instead of them. This is a generalized brief overview, but in general these things have contributed significantly to radical Islamic actions and beliefs against the west.
In other words, I don't think the violence is inherent in the relgion anymore than it is inherent in Christianity.
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 11:53 AMJeff: <<Imagine if people start putting 2 and 2 together and realize that Islam is a violent religion
No more or less violent than Christianity."
I should also point out that this post of Jeff's underscores again the mentality of the left. They are willing to overlook Islam atrocities until they can no longer avoid the obvious, then they always resort to a "Christianity is also violent" equivocation fallacy. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 12:09 PM<<They are willing to overlook Islam atrocities until they can no longer avoid the obvious, then they always resort to a "Christianity is also violent" equivocation fallacy.
I am a patriot and a veteran, and I have clearly recognized the very real danger of Radical Islam in this thread and others. I have not overlooked ANY attrocites by Islam. It is obvious that you don't have the capacity to evaluate the issues beyond the right wing sensationalist headline of the day. Intellectually, you just can't keep up.
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 6:28 PM
Wow, so the shooter is still alive. Interesting. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 6:52 PM -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 6:57 PMTinfoil hat conspiracy theories begin in 3, 2, 1... -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 7:17 PM<<Tinfoil hat conspiracy theories begin in 3, 2, 1... >>
Yes, I'm sure Alex Jones is busy working on exposing a new Illuminati plot as we speak -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 7:24 PMI don't have the link available, but at least one post at Free Republic said that it was done to divert attention away from today's teabagger rally against the health care bill.
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Fri, November 6, 2009 - 1:33 PM"Yes, I'm sure Alex Jones is busy working on exposing a new Illuminati plot as we speak "
You know, Alex Jones predicted that this shooting would happen. He once said that he thought that some people will die at some time in the future.
Spooky, huh?
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Mon, November 9, 2009 - 11:23 AMU.S. intelligence agencies were aware months ago that Army Major Nidal Malik Hasan was attempting to make contact with people associated with al Qaeda, two American officials briefed on classified material in the case told ABC News.
It is not known whether the intelligence agencies informed the Army that one of its officers was seeking to connect with suspected al Qaeda figures, the officials said.
Rep. Peter Hoekstra (R-MI), the ranking Republican on the House Intelligence Committee, said that he requested the CIA and other intelligence agencies brief the committee on what was known, if anything, about Hasan by the U.S. intelligence community, only to be refused.
In response, Hoekstra issued a document preservation request to four intelligence agencies. The letter, dated November 7th, was sent to directors Dennis Blair (DNI), Robert Mueller (FBI), Lt. Gen Keith Alexander (NSA) and Leon Panetta (CIA).
Hoekstra said he is "absolutely furious" that the house intel committee has been refused an intelligence briefing by the DNI or CIA on Hasan's attempt to reach out to al Qaeda, as first reported by ABC News.
"This is a law enforcement investigation, in which other agencies—not the CIA—have the lead," CIA spokesman Paul Gimigliano said in a response to ABC News. " Any suggestion that the CIA refused to brief Congress is incorrect."
Investigators want to know if Hasan maintained contact with a radical mosque leader from Virginia, Anwar al Awlaki, who now lives in Yemen and runs a web site that promotes jihad around the world against the U.S.
In a blog posting early Monday titled "Nidal Hassan Did the Right Thing," Awlaki calls Hasan a "hero" and a "man of conscience who could not bear living the contradiction of being a Muslim and serving in an army that is fighting against his own people."
According to his site, Awlaki served as an imam in Denver, San Diego and Falls Church, Virginia.
The Associated Press reported Sunday that Major Hasan attended the Falls Church mosque when Awlaki was there.
The Telegraph of London reported that Awlaki had made contact with two of the 9/11 hijackers when he was in San Diego.
He denied any knowledge of the hijacking plot and was never charged with any crime. After an intensive investigation by the FBI , Awlaki moved to Yemen.
People who knew or worked with Hasan say he seemed to have gradually become more radical in his disapproval of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.
On Sunday, Sen. Joseph Lieberman (D-CT) called for an investigation into whether the Army missed signs as to whether Hasan was an Islamic extremist.
"If Hasan was showing signs, saying to people that he had become an Islamist extremist, the U.S. Army has to have a zero tolerance," Lieberman told Fox News Sunday.
A fellow Army doctor who studied with Hasan, Val Finell, told ABC News, "He would frequently say he was a Muslim first and an American second. And that came out in just about everything he did at the University."
Finell said he and other Army doctors complained to superiors about Hasan's statements.
"And we questioned how somebody could take an oath of office…be an officer in the military and swear allegiance to the constitution and to defend America against all enemies, foreign and domestic and have that type of conflict," Finell told ABC News.
The Army Chief of Staff, General George Casey, raised concerns over the weekend that innocent Muslim soldiers could suffer as a result of the shooting at Fort Hood.
"I think the speculation (on Hasan's Islamic roots) could potentially heighten backlash against some of our Muslim soldiers," he said on ABC's "This Week."
abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fo...cials/Story -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Mon, November 9, 2009 - 12:20 PM<<<"If Hasan was showing signs, saying to people that he had become an Islamist extremist, the U.S. Army has to have a zero tolerance," Lieberman told Fox News Sunday.>>>
Yes, because as we know they are highly likely to come out and admit "I've become a Islamist extremist" -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Mon, November 9, 2009 - 12:25 PMThough he might not have been openly advertising his position, it seems pretty clear that this guy gave off plenty of warning signs that, if anything, should have warranted an investigation -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 12:10 PM<<Though he might not have been openly advertising his position, it seems pretty clear that this guy gave off plenty of warning signs that, if anything, should have warranted an investigation
This is certainly true, as is the fact that he was trying to get out of the military, indicating to his superiors that he did not belong. His attempt to get out, as well as the other warning signs seem to of fell on deaf ears.
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Mon, November 9, 2009 - 2:08 PM<Yes, because as we know they are highly likely to come out and admit "I've become a Islamist extremist">
Or, maybe this is what he meant? "U.S. intelligence agencies were aware months ago that Army Major Nidal Malik Hasan was attempting to make contact with people associated with al Qaeda, two American officials briefed on classified material in the case told ABC News."
That seems to be one of these "signs", does it not?
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Mon, November 9, 2009 - 6:14 PMYou know what is so juicy about this? It inadvertently brings back into the public eye the "Able Danger" scandal in which it was revealed that the army had detailed foreknowledge of hijacking plans via surveillance, yet pretended they didn't. I bet there are some people shivering in their boots over this little resurrection.
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 10:45 AMThe Army psychiatrist believed to have killed 13 people at Fort Hood warned a roomful of senior Army physicians a year and a half ago that to avoid "adverse events," the military should allow Muslim soldiers to be released as conscientious objectors instead of fighting in wars against other Muslims.
As a senior-year psychiatric resident at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, Maj. Nidal M. Hasan was supposed to make a presentation on a medical topic of his choosing as a culminating exercise of the residency program.
Instead, in late June 2007, he stood before his supervisors and about 25 other mental health staff members and lectured on Islam, suicide bombers and threats the military could encounter from Muslims conflicted about fighting in the Muslim countries of Iraq and Afghanistan, according to a copy of the presentation obtained by The Washington Post.
"It's getting harder and harder for Muslims in the service to morally justify being in a military that seems constantly engaged against fellow Muslims," he said in the presentation.
"It was really strange," said one staff member who attended the presentation and spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the investigation of Hasan. "The senior doctors looked really upset" at the end. These medical presentations occurred each Wednesday afternoon, and other students had lectured on new medications and treatment of specific mental illnesses.
An Army spokesman said Monday night he was unaware of the presentation, and a Walter Reed spokesman declined to comment. It is unclear whether anyone in attendance reported the briefing to counterintelligence or law enforcement authorities whose job it is to identify threats from within the military ranks.
Hasan spent six years at Walter Reed as an intern, resident and fellow beginning in 2003. He was transferred to Fort Hood as a practicing psychiatrist in July and was set to leave soon for Afghanistan. According to a relative, he had asked not to be deployed. It is not known whether he ever sought conscientious-objector status.
Maj. Gen. Gina S. Farrisee, the Army's personnel chief, said in an interview Monday that because of the investigation, she and other Army officials could not discuss whether Hasan had officially asked to quit the service or not to be deployed. However, she and another Army official said it would be highly unusual for officers with Hasan's rank and medical training to be allowed to resign, given their service obligation.
Investigators are examining Hasan's religious beliefs, whether he harbored extremist views, and whether he was in contact with others who may have encouraged violence against U.S. troops.
The title of Hasan's PowerPoint presentation was "The Koranic World View As It Relates to Muslims in the U.S. Military." It consisted of 50 slides. In one slide, Hasan described the presentation's objectives as identifying "what the Koran inculcates in the minds of Muslims and the potential implications this may have for the U.S. military."
He also sought to "describe the nature of the religious conflicts that Muslims" who serve in the U.S. military may have and to persuade the Army to identify these individuals.
Other slides delved into the history of Islam, its tenets, statistics about the number of Muslims in the military, and explanations of "offensive jihad," or holy war.
Another slide suggested ways to draw out Muslim troops: "It must be hard for you to balance Islamic beliefs that might be conflicting with current war; feelings of guilt; Is it what you expected."
Hasan's presentation lasted about an hour. It is unclear whether he read out loud every point on each slide. If typical procedures were followed, his adviser would have supervised the development of his project, said people familiar with the practice.
The final three slides indicate that Hasan referred to Osama bin Laden, the Taliban, suicide bombers and Iran.
Under a slide titled "Comments," he wrote: "If Muslim groups can convince Muslims that they are fighting for God against injustices of the 'infidels'; ie: enemies of Islam, then Muslims can become a potent adversary ie: suicide bombing, etc." [sic]
The last bullet point on that page reads simply: "We love death more then [sic] you love life!"
Under the "Conclusions" page, Hasan wrote that "Fighting to establish an Islamic State to please God, even by force, is condoned by the Islam," and that "Muslim Soldiers should not serve in any capacity that renders them at risk to hurting/killing believers unjustly -- will vary!"
The final page, labeled "Recommendation," contained only one suggestion:
"Department of Defense should allow Muslims [sic] Soldiers the option of being released as 'Conscientious objectors' to increase troop morale and decrease adverse events."
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...18.html -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 11:02 AMThis so obviously a case of letting a ticking bomb sit around in the hopes that it would detonate and thereby further a military and political agenda. People are not in general so dumb that they can't see what happened here. This is part and parcel of how the agenda gets furthered by entrapments and inducements, and in this case letting loose cannons roam the ship at will.
www.rollingstone.com/politic..._factory
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Able_Danger -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 11:09 AM"This so obviously a case of letting a ticking bomb sit around in the hopes that it would detonate and thereby further a military and political agenda."
no, it actually isn't -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 11:40 AMYeah, it actually is. This guy's performance as a "troubled" psychiatrist and a wannabe conscientious objector was grounds enough for discharge. Now add to that these incoherencies regarding the muslim agenda which he was spouting on the internet, and it is truly bizarre that he was allowed to continue on without discharge or investigation. The DHS has no trouble at all identifying web posters and bloggers, and I can't believe they didn't correlate these later web rants to this Hassan especially since the DHS has completely free reign to trace out posters if there is the slightest suspicion of terrorism. This story gets curioser and curiouser. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 12:08 PM"Yeah, it actually is. This guy's performance as a "troubled" psychiatrist and a wannabe conscientious objector was grounds enough for discharge."
No one said it wasn't
"Now add to that these incoherencies regarding the muslim agenda which he was spouting on the internet, and it is truly bizarre that he was allowed to continue on without discharge or investigation."
Yes, because giant bureaucracies have a spotless record in dealing with individuals
"The DHS has no trouble at all identifying web posters and bloggers"
You watch too much tv
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 12:15 PM<<This so obviously a case of letting a ticking bomb sit around in the hopes that it would detonate and thereby further a military and political agenda.
What a crock of shit..... show me what exactly how this lone shooter is being used to further a US govt. agenda. Newsflash, there is not a conspiracy in every corner. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 12:26 PMThe terrible fallout from all this is simple: Will *any* Muslim soldier feel safe in military service now?
-troy -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 12:28 PMHuh? -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 12:38 PMNow every Muslim soldier will be suspect of being a jihadist. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 12:47 PMI'm not seeing any evidence of this -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 1:13 PMI hope not.
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 6:50 PM<<I'm not seeing any evidence of this
How about this?
Marine Reservist Accused Of Attacking Greek Orthodox Priest In Anti-Muslim Rage
Alexios Marakis, a Greek Orthodox priest visiting the U.S., got lost in Tampa and tried to stop and ask directions from Marine reservist Jasen D. Bruce. But instead of offering help, "Bruce struck the priest on the head with a tire iron." The reservist believed Marakis, who spoke limited English, was an Arab terrorist. Bruce chased the priest for three blocks, "and even called 911 to say that an Arabic man tried to rob him." www.tampabay.com/news/publ...or/1050707 -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 1:26 AMPerhaps there is more to it?
www.nytimes.com/aponline/2...tacked.html
Maybe the CCTV recordings will shed some light on the truth.
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 1:41 AMYeah, you will have individuals idiots who over react. But that is far and away from "Now every Muslim soldier will be suspect of being a jihadist". In fact this entire case seems to point to the idea that we went to far in the opposite direction, and excused a clear threat out of some overly PC ideal -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 12:13 PM<<In fact this entire case seems to point to the idea that we went to far in the opposite direction, and excused a clear threat out of some overly PC ideal
Now you are repeating Dans false mantra. There is ZERO evidence that his case was dropped because of ignoring a threat based on an overly PC ideal. The evidence we do have indicates that his conversations with the radical Imam centered around a paper the shooter was writing on PTSD, subsequent investigations determined he was indeed writing a paper on PTSD. This is the reason the case was dropped. Please, I implore you to look beyond the sensationalist headlines.
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 3:31 PMYou're kidding right? Look at the how the neocon spin machine has gone into overdrive on this. The thing to keep your eye on is how much did intelligence have on this guy and how much did they choose to ignore a la "Able Danger." If there is nothing there then there is nothing there, but if ever there was a "red flag" enlisted man Hassan was one. Did they just completely ignore these flags? Interesting question. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 6:52 PM<<You're kidding right? Look at the how the neocon spin machine has gone into overdrive on this.
Who gives a fuck, the Neocons are not in power. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 7:32 PM"Neocons are not in power." Hahahahaha! -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 12:13 PMIf you have evidence to the contrary, please provide it. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 12:15 PMObama was an AIPAC project. You just playing dumb here? -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 12:37 PM<<Obama was an AIPAC project. You just playing dumb here?
Wow, yet another conspiracy theory with no basis in fact......and combined with a personal insult no less. Do you believe everything you read from the internet cooks? Please provide credible evidence beyond a Steven Jones Prison Planet conspiracy theory.
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 1:30 PMWhat would the personal insult have been? -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 1:47 PMPossibly, are "You just playing dumb here?"
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 1:47 PMThe whold dumb thing. Now, stop avoiding demonstrating your claim, or admit you were once again presenting assumption and inunedo as fact. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 2:01 PMOh please dude. This is the Politics tribe where gunslinging is de rigeur.
So Obama is not beholden to AIPAC huh? Laugh. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 2:27 PM<<So Obama is not beholden to AIPAC huh?
It is common practice to at least attempt to demonstrate a claim, in particular one that sounds as ludicrous as yours. You tried to indicate that Obama is a Neocon, as proof you said he was a creation of AIPAC, now you changed that to "beholden". This should be SIMPLE. What do you base your assertion on? Yet another "gut" feeling like GW Bush? -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 3:48 PMOh, for heaven's sakes. Who was Obama's very first appointment as president:
www.antiwar.com/orig/giraldi.php -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 4:01 PM<<Oh, for heaven's sakes. Who was Obama's very first appointment as president:
Wow, this is the THIRD time your story has changed. It went from Obama is a creation of AIPAC, to Obama is beholdent to AIPAC, to Obama appointed a JEW. Putting a Jew (and a politically talented one at that) in his cabinent does NOT demonstrate that Obama was created by AIPAC. You are seriously stretching there Solari. You have thus far failed in demonstrating your claim. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 4:07 PMRead the article , Jeff.
I don't regard AIPAC as a "jewish" organization so much as it a very well monied club for the promotion of Greater Israel. I have many Jewish friends who despise AIPAC for it's Zionist agenda. Emanuel is an AIPAC operative. Everybody knows that. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 4:18 PMWow, you are supporting your unsupported claims with more unsupported claims, ie that he is an "operative". You have not demonstrated ONE fact in support of your argument thus far. Can you demonstrate that Rham is or ever has been a member of AIPAC? Certainly he might be sympathetic to AIPAC being that he is an orthodox Jew, but that does absolutely NOTHING to demonstrate that Obama is a creation of AIPAC, thereby indicating that Obama himself is a Neocon. As a matter of fact, even if he WAS a member, it would not be an indication that the organization CREATED Obama. As a matter of fact, they were a bit anti-obama in the beginning. You fail.
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 12, 2009 - 11:26 AMSolari, why are you doing absolutely nothing to support your claims about Obama being an AIPAC creation? Why are you ignoring the evidence I presented that clearly demonstrates WTC 7 fell in to its own footprint? If you want your truther movement to gain momentum in any fashion, you have to be honest and forthright with both yourself and those you are having discussions with. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 12, 2009 - 11:34 AMIf the truther movement was forced to be honest, they'd cease to exist. Hell, they wouldn't have existed in the first place. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 12, 2009 - 12:17 PMIt did not take the Israel Lobby long to make mincemeat out of the Obama administration's " no new settlements" position. Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu is bragging about Israel's latest victory over the US government as Israel continues to build illegal settlements on occupied Palestinian land.
In May President Obama read the Israelis the riot act, telling the Israeli government that he was serious about ending the Israeli conflict with the Palestinians and that a lasting peace agreement required the Israeli government to abandon all construction of new settlements in the occupied West Bank.
On November 10 Obama's White House chief of staff, Rahm Israel Emanuel, surrendered for his boss at the annual conference of the United Jewish Communities.
The ongoing Israeli settlements, he said, should not be a "distraction" to a peace agreement.
Allegedly, the US is a superpower and Israel is a client state whose very existence depends entirely on US military and economic aid and diplomatic protection. Yet, in the real world it works the other way. Israel is the superpower and the US is its client state.
This true fact is proved to us at least once every week and sometimes two or three times in one week. A few days, ago the US House of Representatives voted 344 to 36 in favor of disavowing the UN report by the distinguished Jewish judge Richard Goldstone that found that Israel had committed war crimes in its attack on the civilian population in the Gaza Ghetto. The Israel Lobby demanded that the House repudiate the fact-filled report, and the servile House did as its master ordered.
US Rep. Dennis Kucinich spoke to his colleagues for 2 minutes in an effort to make them see that their vote against the Goldstone report would be a great embarrassment to the US government and demean the House in the eyes of the world.
But none of that matters when Israel gives its servants an order. The US House of Representatives preferred to demean itself and to embarrass the US Government rather than to cross the Israel Lobby.
Retribution quickly fell upon Kucinich for his 2 minute speech. On November 9, Kucinich was forced to withdraw as the keynote speaker for the Palm Beach County (Florida) Democratic Party's annual fundraising dinner. The Israel Lobby gave the order-dump Kucinich or there's no money and no one is coming to the dinner. County Commissioner Burt Aaronson called Kucinich "an absolute horror."
Kucinich is the rare Democrat who stands up for his party's principles, the working class, and tried to get health care for those Americans the corporations have thrown out on the street. But helping Americans doesn't count. Israel über alles.
Meanwhile, the US dollar continues to decline relative to other traded currencies. Since spring, anyone could have made a double-digit rate of return betting on most any currency against the US dollar.
The International Monetary Fund (IMF) recently expressed concern that despite the dollar's continuing slide, it might still be over-valued. The Federal Reserve's low interest rate policy encourages speculators to use the dollar for the "carry trade." Speculators, whether individuals or financial institutions borrow dollars at rock bottom interest rates and use the almost free capital to purchase higher yielding instruments in other countries. The demand for dollars to finance the "carry trade" keeps the dollar higher than it would otherwise be.
Last year it was the Japanese Yen that was used for the "carry trade" due to the practically zero Japanese interest rates. The next scare that unwinds the "carry trade" will cause another big drop in financial asset values. This means that the stock market is very volatile. It is based on speculation, not on fundamentals.
When the "carry trade" next unwinds, the demand for US dollars to pay off the loans will temporarily boost the dollar. But don't be fooled. The large US trade and budget deficits are the dollar's death warrant.
When the dollar finally goes, so will the government's ability to conduct wars of aggression, underwrite Israel, finance its red ink and pay for imports. That's when the printing press will really get going.
www.rense.com/general88/israelg.htm
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 12, 2009 - 12:28 PMNone of this demonstrates your claim that AIPAC created Obama, none of it demonstrates that Obama is beholden to AIPAC, none of it demonstrates that Rahm is a member let alone an operative for AIPAC. The US having a pro-Isreali position does not demonstrate that Obama is a creation of APAC anymore than our Pro-Saudi positions demonstrate that Obama is a Muslim. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 12, 2009 - 12:37 PMUh huh -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 12, 2009 - 12:39 PMBy the way, I didn't say Obama was "created" by AIPAC. I said he was on of their "projects" as is every political position in the land. -
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Re: Texas military base shooting leaves 7 dead
Thu, November 12, 2009 - 12:47 PM<<By the way, I didn't say Obama was "created" by AIPAC. I said he was on of their "projects" as is every political position in the land.
Your inferrence was clear being that your response was in relation to demonstrating that Obama is a Neocon, and did so by saying he is an AIPAC project. Being that you say every political position is an AIPAC project, are you trying to then say that every political position is a Neocon position? This would be illogical. What you are trying to say keeps changing.
My interpretation of your words (that Obama is somehow an AIPAC puppet) is bore out by the fact that you said OBAMA is BEHOLDEN to AIPAC, which you also were not able to demonstrate. Yes, the US has a history of being pro-Israeli. And? Your conspiracy theories don't hold water without you being able to credibly demonstrate your claims, and you have thusfar been unable to do that.
Now, how about addressing the information I provided that demonstrates that WTC 7 did not collapse in to its own footprint?
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American Muslims To Fort Hood Shooter: 'Thanks A Lot, Asshole'
Thu, November 12, 2009 - 12:19 PM -
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Re: American Muslims To Fort Hood Shooter: 'Thanks A Lot, Asshole'
Thu, November 12, 2009 - 12:26 PMGood ol' Onion!
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