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By Matt Stoller, a fellow at the Roosevelt Institute. You can follow him on Twitter at www.twitter.com/matthewstoller.
On Tuesday, Wisconsin Republican Governor Scott Walker humiliated his Democratic opponent, Tom Barrett, by easily turning back a popular recall attempt sponsored by unions and liberal activists. The numbers in the election, which were supposed to be close, were ugly, in favor of the Republican. But this wasn’t just any Republican, Scott Walker is THE Republican, the politician who made his governorship a referendum on a hard right agenda, in a blue state. Walker waged a direct and very public attack on the major constituencies of the Democratic Party, rolling back rights for women, the working class, and the young with measures such as ending collective bargaining for state employees, privatizing state assets, and repealing Wisconson’s equal pay provisions for women. His agenda provoked a fierce reaction – – Wisconsin citizens occupied the Statehouse for months - and then a recall.
Yesterday, Walker’s agenda was ratified by the voters of Wisconsin, the state where public sector unions were born. It’s hard to overstate how bad this is – Wisconsin is now on the road to becoming a right-to-work state, in what is likely to become a right-to-work country. Right-to-work laws are provisions that allow individual employees to withdraw from unions, and they make it much harder for unions to organize.
And the deeper you look into the race, the worse it looks. By calling for a recall instead of a general strike after Walker stripped collective bargaining rights and cut benefits for workers, labor and Democratic leadership in the state diverted and then subverted populist energy, channeling it into an electoral process (at least one union, one very active in the occupation of the Capitol, stood apart from the electoral stupidity). Then, Barrett, an anti-labor centrist, won the Democratic primary by crushing his labor-backed opponent, Kathleen Falk. Finally, Barrett himself was destroyed by Scott Walker, who outspent Barrett 7-1 with corporate money. In other words, first, liberals lost a policy battle, then they failed to strike, then they lost a primary election, then they lost a general election to the most high-profile effective reactionary policy-maker in the country. The conservative beat the moderate who beat the liberal. And had Barrett won, he wouldn’t even have rolled back Walker’s agenda. Somehow, in a no-win electoral situation, Democrats and labor managed to lose as badly as they possibly could.
What happened?
I wish I could say I had a new insight, but it’s basically the same problem I’ve been writing about for years. Put simply, it’s that Obama’s policy framework is now the policy framework of the Democratic Party, liberals, and unionism. Up and down the ticket, Democrats are operating under the shadow of the President, associated with unpopular policies that make the lives of voters worse and show government to be an incompetent, corrupt handmaiden to big business. So they keep losing.
It should be obvious that if you foreclose on your voters, cut their pay, and legalize theft of their wealth by Wall Street oligarchs, they won’t be your voters anymore. Somehow, Democratic activists continue to operate as if policy doesn’t matter to voters, or that policy evaluation is a Chinese menu of different stuff, some of which you like and some of which you don’t, as in “Oh I’ll take a pro-choice moderate, with a bailout, and gay rights. And a Pepsi”. But that’s not how it works – voters’ lives get better, or they don’t. And under Obama, stuff has gotten worse. Obama’s economic policies have made economic inequality sharper than it was under Bush, due to his bailout of banks and concurrent elimination of the main source of wealth of most Americans, home equity. With these policy choices, Obama destroyed the Democratic Party and liberalism – under Obama’s first two years, the fastest growing demographic party label was “former Democrat.” Liberalism demands that people pay for a government, but why should anyone want to pay taxes for the terrible governance Obama has implemented?
We saw Democrats lose elections badly in 2009 and 2010 because of this dynamic. They didn’t self-correct, instead doubling down on Obama. Then, in Illinois and Maryland in April, liberal labor-backed candidates were absolutely wrecked in primaries. I noted at the time in a piece titled “Why Is the Left Slice of the Democrats Getting Crushed?” that this is a consequence of Obama’s policies and a general discrediting of liberalism. In Wisconsin, the stage was much more high-profile, but the dynamics were the same. This quote could just as easily apply to either contest.
“I’m flabbergasted. I’m embarrassed. This is the biggest screw-up electorally that I’ve ever been involved in,” said one progressive activist still sorting through the wreckage.
“Why Ilya Sheyman And Progressives Lost Big In Illinois’ 10th District Primary”, Huffington Post
But it’s not complete to say this is just Obama’s doing. Obama has done everything he’s done with the support of labor leaders, Democratic supportive groups like Moveon, foundations, liberal pundits, African-American church networks, feminist groups, LGBT groups, and technology interests. Any of these could have stopped him by withdrawing support and overtly attacking him, but only the LBGT community fought for their rights. This American labor bureaucracy, which simply does not strike and therefore has no leverage against capital, operates largely as a group of fragmented business unionists. Unfortunately, business unions don’t exist when business decides it doesn’t want unions. And that’s what global business elites have decided, as this piece published on this very site titled The Liquidation of Society versus the Global Labor Revival shows.
In September of 2011, I suggested that Democrats replace Barack Obama on the top of the ticket. My rationale was that Obama’s policy framework is a disaster, and the failure to stand up to him is causing a meltdown of institutional elements of the Democratic Party. Ahead of the Wisconsin recall, emails from liberal internet groups flooded supporters asking for money and time, saying your dollars or your vote matters. But they didn’t matter. And in terms of 2012, your voice won’t matter. Here’s what I said in 2011.
For Obama, the die is cast. He has put forward his economic program, and it will work to return jobs and income, and get the votes, or it won’t. Knocking on doors won’t change that, nor will a donation in a $6 billion election season.
That’s still true. Of course, that’s not what high profile Democratic consultants are going to tell you. Here’s former White House official and current Democratic SuperPAC operative Bill Burton, retweeting former Clinton political consultant Paul Begala.
RT @PaulBegala One WI lesson: Dems must not allow the right to outspend us 7 to 1 if we want to re-elect POTUS? #wirecall
Obama has largely insulated himself from the consequences of his policies, so far, with a strong and aggressive PR campaign that has kept his approval ratings high enough to potentially win in 2012. This PR campaign blames everyone else for policy failures, from Democrats in Congress to Republicans in Congress to the Eurozone. Regardless of what happens, Obama will reap enormous monetary rewards for what he’s done, as Bill Clinton’s $80 million post-election payday shows. And if Obama loses, the recriminations will start, and liberals will take the blame for not allowing Obama to be centrist enough. At this point, the Democratic Party is hopelessly broken and overrun by the same interests that are running the Republican Party. I hate to be the bearer of such awful news, so I’ll end this on an up note.
We are not alone, and the system is weak. There is an international movement, led at this moment by Alexis Tsipras of Greece (though he could betray or lose), to reject the destructive neoliberalism that has run our world for forty years. These movements are contagious. Meanwhile, the financial system is teetering on another meltdown, and meltdowns do create opportunities for new social movements and elite shifts in opinion. If we can figure out how to interrupt the stream of profit and commerce, or persuade a slice of the elites that they do not want to live in the nice gilded parts of what is increasingly becoming a global prison, then the revival can come much quicker than anyone imagines.
By Matt Stoller, a fellow at the Roosevelt Institute. You can follow him on Twitter at www.twitter.com/matthewstoller.
On Tuesday, Wisconsin Republican Governor Scott Walker humiliated his Democratic opponent, Tom Barrett, by easily turning back a popular recall attempt sponsored by unions and liberal activists. The numbers in the election, which were supposed to be close, were ugly, in favor of the Republican. But this wasn’t just any Republican, Scott Walker is THE Republican, the politician who made his governorship a referendum on a hard right agenda, in a blue state. Walker waged a direct and very public attack on the major constituencies of the Democratic Party, rolling back rights for women, the working class, and the young with measures such as ending collective bargaining for state employees, privatizing state assets, and repealing Wisconson’s equal pay provisions for women. His agenda provoked a fierce reaction – – Wisconsin citizens occupied the Statehouse for months - and then a recall.
Yesterday, Walker’s agenda was ratified by the voters of Wisconsin, the state where public sector unions were born. It’s hard to overstate how bad this is – Wisconsin is now on the road to becoming a right-to-work state, in what is likely to become a right-to-work country. Right-to-work laws are provisions that allow individual employees to withdraw from unions, and they make it much harder for unions to organize.
And the deeper you look into the race, the worse it looks. By calling for a recall instead of a general strike after Walker stripped collective bargaining rights and cut benefits for workers, labor and Democratic leadership in the state diverted and then subverted populist energy, channeling it into an electoral process (at least one union, one very active in the occupation of the Capitol, stood apart from the electoral stupidity). Then, Barrett, an anti-labor centrist, won the Democratic primary by crushing his labor-backed opponent, Kathleen Falk. Finally, Barrett himself was destroyed by Scott Walker, who outspent Barrett 7-1 with corporate money. In other words, first, liberals lost a policy battle, then they failed to strike, then they lost a primary election, then they lost a general election to the most high-profile effective reactionary policy-maker in the country. The conservative beat the moderate who beat the liberal. And had Barrett won, he wouldn’t even have rolled back Walker’s agenda. Somehow, in a no-win electoral situation, Democrats and labor managed to lose as badly as they possibly could.
What happened?
I wish I could say I had a new insight, but it’s basically the same problem I’ve been writing about for years. Put simply, it’s that Obama’s policy framework is now the policy framework of the Democratic Party, liberals, and unionism. Up and down the ticket, Democrats are operating under the shadow of the President, associated with unpopular policies that make the lives of voters worse and show government to be an incompetent, corrupt handmaiden to big business. So they keep losing.
It should be obvious that if you foreclose on your voters, cut their pay, and legalize theft of their wealth by Wall Street oligarchs, they won’t be your voters anymore. Somehow, Democratic activists continue to operate as if policy doesn’t matter to voters, or that policy evaluation is a Chinese menu of different stuff, some of which you like and some of which you don’t, as in “Oh I’ll take a pro-choice moderate, with a bailout, and gay rights. And a Pepsi”. But that’s not how it works – voters’ lives get better, or they don’t. And under Obama, stuff has gotten worse. Obama’s economic policies have made economic inequality sharper than it was under Bush, due to his bailout of banks and concurrent elimination of the main source of wealth of most Americans, home equity. With these policy choices, Obama destroyed the Democratic Party and liberalism – under Obama’s first two years, the fastest growing demographic party label was “former Democrat.” Liberalism demands that people pay for a government, but why should anyone want to pay taxes for the terrible governance Obama has implemented?
We saw Democrats lose elections badly in 2009 and 2010 because of this dynamic. They didn’t self-correct, instead doubling down on Obama. Then, in Illinois and Maryland in April, liberal labor-backed candidates were absolutely wrecked in primaries. I noted at the time in a piece titled “Why Is the Left Slice of the Democrats Getting Crushed?” that this is a consequence of Obama’s policies and a general discrediting of liberalism. In Wisconsin, the stage was much more high-profile, but the dynamics were the same. This quote could just as easily apply to either contest.
“I’m flabbergasted. I’m embarrassed. This is the biggest screw-up electorally that I’ve ever been involved in,” said one progressive activist still sorting through the wreckage.
“Why Ilya Sheyman And Progressives Lost Big In Illinois’ 10th District Primary”, Huffington Post
But it’s not complete to say this is just Obama’s doing. Obama has done everything he’s done with the support of labor leaders, Democratic supportive groups like Moveon, foundations, liberal pundits, African-American church networks, feminist groups, LGBT groups, and technology interests. Any of these could have stopped him by withdrawing support and overtly attacking him, but only the LBGT community fought for their rights. This American labor bureaucracy, which simply does not strike and therefore has no leverage against capital, operates largely as a group of fragmented business unionists. Unfortunately, business unions don’t exist when business decides it doesn’t want unions. And that’s what global business elites have decided, as this piece published on this very site titled The Liquidation of Society versus the Global Labor Revival shows.
In September of 2011, I suggested that Democrats replace Barack Obama on the top of the ticket. My rationale was that Obama’s policy framework is a disaster, and the failure to stand up to him is causing a meltdown of institutional elements of the Democratic Party. Ahead of the Wisconsin recall, emails from liberal internet groups flooded supporters asking for money and time, saying your dollars or your vote matters. But they didn’t matter. And in terms of 2012, your voice won’t matter. Here’s what I said in 2011.
For Obama, the die is cast. He has put forward his economic program, and it will work to return jobs and income, and get the votes, or it won’t. Knocking on doors won’t change that, nor will a donation in a $6 billion election season.
That’s still true. Of course, that’s not what high profile Democratic consultants are going to tell you. Here’s former White House official and current Democratic SuperPAC operative Bill Burton, retweeting former Clinton political consultant Paul Begala.
RT @PaulBegala One WI lesson: Dems must not allow the right to outspend us 7 to 1 if we want to re-elect POTUS? #wirecall
Obama has largely insulated himself from the consequences of his policies, so far, with a strong and aggressive PR campaign that has kept his approval ratings high enough to potentially win in 2012. This PR campaign blames everyone else for policy failures, from Democrats in Congress to Republicans in Congress to the Eurozone. Regardless of what happens, Obama will reap enormous monetary rewards for what he’s done, as Bill Clinton’s $80 million post-election payday shows. And if Obama loses, the recriminations will start, and liberals will take the blame for not allowing Obama to be centrist enough. At this point, the Democratic Party is hopelessly broken and overrun by the same interests that are running the Republican Party. I hate to be the bearer of such awful news, so I’ll end this on an up note.
We are not alone, and the system is weak. There is an international movement, led at this moment by Alexis Tsipras of Greece (though he could betray or lose), to reject the destructive neoliberalism that has run our world for forty years. These movements are contagious. Meanwhile, the financial system is teetering on another meltdown, and meltdowns do create opportunities for new social movements and elite shifts in opinion. If we can figure out how to interrupt the stream of profit and commerce, or persuade a slice of the elites that they do not want to live in the nice gilded parts of what is increasingly becoming a global prison, then the revival can come much quicker than anyone imagines.
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Wed, June 6, 2012 - 3:19 PMThe American left is not lying in "smoldering wreckage" by any stretch of the imagination. Barret said Obama would have been a distraction and ultimately would have polarized the issue even further. And neither does one state comprise the entirety of the American left. Walker won because he outspent is opponent 8 to 1, so the only thing to take from this is the need to end the Citizens United ruling. -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Wed, June 6, 2012 - 5:30 PMI agree, but the headline should be, "Thanks to the idiot Left, the American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage".
Idiots. All they can do it whine & complain from the outside, letting the status quo'ers do what they're going to do. Ever heard of the Teabaggers? They fought form the INSIDE and now they run the Reps. But, all that the Idiot Left can do is whine & tear down the Dems, while staying totally irrelevant & helping the Reps.
Fucking idiots. -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Thu, June 7, 2012 - 7:59 AMuh, when you are on the outside, where else but the outside can you fight? who's the biggest champion of leftist causes in congress? bernie sanders? dick durbin? where are the leftists in congress that allows them to fight from the inside?
i agree, though. the left continues to operate on the unfounded belief that a majority of the country is to left of center, when, in fact, polls continuously bear out that we are an extremely conservative nation. -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Thu, June 7, 2012 - 1:18 PM<uh, when you are on the outside, where else but the outside can you fight? who's the biggest champion of leftist causes in congress? bernie sanders? dick durbin? where are the leftists in congress that allows them to fight from the inside?>
why do you forget so easily? i clearly remember the start of obama's term when harry reid and especially nancy pelosi with their newly minted super-manorities were talking a hard progressive agenda and saying they were (paraphrased) ready to go to the mat with obama to pass progressive legislation. tey were JAZZED and ready to FIGHT. and they WOULD HAVE gotten behind obama and twisted arms and fought for that agenda IF OBAMA HAD BEEN ON BOARD. the reality is obama immediately turned to the right and started reaching out to the republicans while iignoring or dissing the progressive and sent rahm emmanuel aqnd his gang to capitol hill to strongarm the progressives to back obama's corporate and wall street friendly 'compromises'. obama is the OFFICIAL leader of the party. he WAS the difference between what could have been and what IS. the left does lie in smokiing wreckage and obama is 95% responsible. on the other hand he has been crazy effective in serving his true masters, the monied elites.obama started pushing the monied elites agenda from day 1 and started attacking and marginalizing the progressives from day 1. and that's what the media cued on.
"i agree, though. the left continues to operate on the unfounded belief that a majority of the country is to left of center, when, in fact, polls continuously bear out that we are an extremely conservative nation."
polls continuously bear out the majority of the country, WHEN POLLED ISSUE BY ISSUE, favor progressive policies and in reality ARE left of center. the difference is the reality constantly pounded by the right wing and msm media. people who actually favor progressive policies have come to THINK they are conservatives because they are continually told that what they are. they HAVE progressive leanings, they just don't know they ARE progressive policies. the only reality reaching them from the msm are CORPORATIST realities and messages, left or right. the msm WOULD cover the progressive point of view, progressive issues and the progressive agenda IF that was what obama pushing for. they have no choice in that, they take their political cues from primarily from the white house. they might put more emphasis on 'contrary' views if obama was actually pushing for progressive policies, but they would HAVE to cover them.
the reality is obama has consistently pushed the national conversation to debating right vs. far right corporatist policies. or far right vs. batshit crazy right corporatist policies.
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Thu, June 7, 2012 - 2:31 PMpolls continuously bear out the majority of the country, WHEN POLLED ISSUE BY ISSUE, favor progressive policies and in reality ARE left of center. the difference is the reality constantly pounded by the right wing and msm media.
sure, issue by issue people might align as progressive. that doesn't mean they vote progressive or OVERALL align as conservative. so yeah, moderates might lean progressive but they might also lean conservative. it doesn't hide the fact that the american people, OVERALL, consider themselves more conservative than liberal.
gallup polls clearly bear this out:
sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/ori....gif -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Thu, June 7, 2012 - 2:45 PMon the other hand, pew polls contradict what gallup has found:
www.people-press.org/files/2...V-14.png
though a profile of independents finds they lean conservative:
www.people-press.org/files/2...V-17.png
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Thu, June 7, 2012 - 4:41 PM<sure, issue by issue people might align as progressive. that doesn't mean they vote progressive or OVERALL align as conservative. so yeah, moderates might lean progressive but they might also lean conservative. it doesn't hide the fact that the american people, OVERALL, consider themselves more conservative than liberal.>
if people align progressive issue by issue, they ARE predominately progressive in reality. that they NO LONGER self identify as progressive (during the 2008 election the word progressive polled substantially more positive than any other political term) is a function of obama's post oath dissing of progressives - resulting in a near media blackout of discussing actual progressive policies, continuation of the bush/cheney agenda and the way the msm and right wing media frame issues. the 'national conversation' is narrowed to shades of corporatism and right wing talking points.
IF obama had went balls to the wall progressive from the day he took office the vast majority of the country was READY and WILLING to back him, IT'S WHY THEY VOTED FOR HIM, and there would BE no confusion between supporting progressive policies and identifying as something else. people would know what progressive policies were, the proogressive agenda was and would self identify accordingly.
if the media is constantly touting what a radical liberal/progressive president obama is AS he is actually pushing a draconian far right agenda ... confuses people.
on the other hand a nation of citizens that can so easily be led astray and fooled will inevitably end in some form of a police state.
they're just too damned stupid to stay free.
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Thu, June 7, 2012 - 5:04 PM<<that they NO LONGER self identify as progressive (during the 2008 election the word progressive polled substantially more positive than any other political term) is a function of obama's post oath dissing of progressives
That is factually incorrect, people in general shied away from self identifying as progressive long before 2008, during 2008, and after. There is no correlation, zero, nada.
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Fri, June 8, 2012 - 8:04 AMthe majority of americans are moderates who lean right, as most polls show. moderates by my definition are those who support both progressive and conservative policies. is there dissonance between those two positions? absolutely. but saying america is progressive doesn't mean the same thing as america BEING progressive. otherwise, why are republicans in control of the house? and why are republicans in a very good position to take over the senate?
<(during the 2008 election the word progressive polled substantially more positive than any other political term)>
of course it did. who would want to be identified as the converse?
your whole post is ridiculous. its premise is the american people are smart enough to know what political affiliation/ideology they identify as, yet are too stupid to vote that way. which is it? are they prescient beings or are they americans (tongue fully in cheek)?
also, you write a whole lots of words with nothing to back it up.
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Thu, June 7, 2012 - 3:00 PMi also posted a couple of weeks ago that support for abortion has dropped to a record low. whether its a statistical anomaly or not, it still doesn't bode well.
sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/ori....gif
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Thu, June 7, 2012 - 4:09 PM<uh, when you are on the outside, where else but the outside can you fight?>
Gerbil, the precursors to today's Teabaggers were the Perot'ites. Remember them? How'd that work for the Republicans?
They figured out that if they get together and fight from the INSIDE, they'll have a much better time.
Who runs the Republican party now? The moderates or the Teabaggers?
I am suggesting that all the Lefties get together and take over the Democratic party. Stop the petty bitching about each person's pet issue and make change from the inside. You'll ALWAYS be on the outside if you PUT yourself there.
<i agree, though. the left continues to operate on the unfounded belief that a majority of the country is to left of center, when, in fact, polls continuously bear out that we are an extremely conservative nation.>
Yup. BUT! They are more liberal on specific progressive issues that are important to them. Taxes, spending, abortion, education...more people are progressive on these issues than they are conservative. BUT! The Liberals on the far-Left just each have their own pet issues which they won't release...thus...they whinge from the outside.
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Thu, June 7, 2012 - 10:23 AM<<Idiots. All they can do it whine & complain from the outside
You really can't paint the left in such a manner, many are standing up and doing concrete things to address the issues that face our nation.
<<Fucking idiots.
The only idiots are those that think such language is going to change anyones mind. Convince them with your intellect, vitriolic and childish name calling is counterproductive. As a matter of fact, such language is less constructive than the words coming from the left that you yourself are complaining about. Lead by example, don't drag the conversation in to the gutter. -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Thu, June 7, 2012 - 4:12 PM<You really can't paint the left in such a manner, many are standing up and doing concrete things to address the issues that face our nation.>
Not only CAN I, but I believe that I just did.
"many" are doing all sorts of things, but they are all doing it in disparate groups, many PROUDLY stating that they won't take any steps along with the Democratic party. Idiots.
<Convince them with your intellect,>
It does not work. One can talk about the SCOTUS, one can show them how other smaller parties have taken over bigger parties (Teabaggers), but it does not matter to the True Believers. They feel that if they compromise AT ALL, they have failed. And thus...they want to win the battle but don't care that they are losing the war for ALL of us.
<Lead by example, don't drag the conversation in to the gutter.>
I am. This year, I will try to take over a national organization, after behaving like a far-Lefty. But, I realized that I am being hypocritical, so I am going to try to take over or at least change the organization. I walk the walk, yo.
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Thu, June 7, 2012 - 12:46 PM<Ever heard of the Teabaggers? They fought form the INSIDE and now they run the Reps. But, all that the Idiot Left can do is whine & tear down the Dems, while staying totally irrelevant & helping the Reps.>
the 'teabaggers' don't run shit. the original grass roots movement was immediately co-opted by billionaire money and right wing (followed be the msm) media to serve the purposes of the monied elites and are now a fully owned 'grass roots' subsidiary of the republicans.
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Thu, June 7, 2012 - 12:51 PM<<the 'teabaggers' don't run shit. the original grass roots movement was immediately co-opted by billionaire money and right wing (followed be the msm) media to serve the purposes of the monied elites and are now a fully owned 'grass roots' subsidiary of the republicans.
Exactly! -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Thu, June 7, 2012 - 1:26 PMJeff ... <Exactly!>
this thread just jumped the shark.
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Thu, June 7, 2012 - 4:19 PM<<Ever heard of the Teabaggers? They fought form the INSIDE and now they run the Reps. But, all that the Idiot Left can do is whine & tear down the Dems, while staying totally irrelevant & helping the Reps.>>
<the 'teabaggers' don't run shit.>
ooooook. Gotcha. Are they in office or not? They have pushed for a no-compromise & farther-Right agenda, and - with the help of the Power Elite, they have won.
But...hey - don't listen to me. Go to the outside of those gates and scream bloody murder. Good luck with that.
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Thu, June 7, 2012 - 4:29 PM<ooooook. Gotcha. Are they in office or not? They have pushed for a no-compromise & farther-Right agenda, and - with the help of the Power Elite, they have won.
But...hey - don't listen to me. Go to the outside of those gates and scream bloody murder. Good luck with that>
i'm speechless.
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Thu, June 7, 2012 - 8:12 AMthe issue was already polarized. you do remember the scenes from the capitol last year? the national democrats got to the party late and were scrambling. they left barrett out to dry. -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Thu, June 7, 2012 - 1:17 PMIt's impressive that they couldn't find a weaker candidate, although it does help the ''race'' look like less of a selection. -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Thu, June 7, 2012 - 1:41 PMconsidering the democratic party's primary function these days is to sideline anyone remotely progressive and push only corporatists to run against republicans it was pretty impressive.
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Thu, June 7, 2012 - 5:48 PMpublic sector union membership has droppped 40 to 50 percent since new laws eliminate mandatory membership, and mandatory union dues. in WI............ -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Thu, June 7, 2012 - 6:29 PMSurely there might be a precedent for union busting in recent history and perhaps we could ascertain directions this country could be headed? -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Fri, June 8, 2012 - 4:49 AMi think 'hell in a handbasket' covers it nicely. -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Fri, June 8, 2012 - 7:00 PMthere's just a groundswell for busting tax payer funded unions with lots of corruption, by an awakened majority of tax payers who don't have government jobs, and are sick of their property taxes going up.
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Mon, June 11, 2012 - 11:15 AM<<i think 'hell in a handbasket' covers it nicely.
Which basically sums up every exaggerated prediction you put forth d'zoner.
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Mon, June 11, 2012 - 2:03 PMHow does any of this bullshit elect Romney in November?
Oh, and the American Left never "supported" Obama anyway. Many voted for him because McCain is a horror and much of the electorate that voted for Obama is now rapidly moving to his left.
How any of this is gonna help the upright corpse that is movement conservatism is dubious. Citizens United means the 1% can buy ONE election. What happens when its *hundreds* of elections? -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Wed, June 13, 2012 - 5:50 PMHypocrite. All of you that want to tear down the Dems & Obama in particular are ridiculous hypocrites. You whine about Citizen's United, but don't you understand that it's the SCOTUS that will in the end decide that - and if you help a Republican get into office, he'll post two more conservative justices and we'll have no hope of getting rid of Citizen's United, much less the many other things that they will be free to do.
It's like you are fine with harming your future to feel better about yourself today. -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Sun, June 17, 2012 - 2:51 PM<< Hypocrite.>>
I await an astounding display of linguistic contortions regarding how anyone can be hypocritical to something they don't believe in.
<< You whine about Citizen's United, but don't you understand that it's the SCOTUS that will in the end decide that >>
Um, SCOTUS already *did* decide that, Andrew. Game over. Lay off a coupla shots of that Aqua Velva and think for a moment about how this government actually works.
<< if you help a Republican get into office >>
How? I'm not a billionaire with a Super PAC. Neither are you. Instead of sitting on my ass weeping into my Haterade on Tribe.net, I'd damn sure be ringing every doorbell in America pleading the case for Obama if I were you.
Since you won't do that, I can't take what you're saying seriously. Certainly not to the point of being offended by mean-mouthed shit like "hypocrite" out of you.
<< It's like you are fine with harming your future to feel better about yourself today.>>
It's like you'd rather cry and tear your hair out on the Internet over people whose opinions you can't control rather than do anything remotely constructive to aid the cause you swear all must uphold to the bitter end. Just to feel better about yourself today... -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Sun, June 17, 2012 - 5:01 PM<Um, SCOTUS already *did* decide that, Andrew. Game over. Lay off a coupla shots of that Aqua Velva and think for a moment about how this government actually works.>
Looks like it's going back to the SCOTUS from another angle. The point is...it is the Conservative appointees that made the case stick. If Obama is in office for another term, he will place one, maybe TWO SCOTUS justices on the bench. THUS - next time that it comes up...guess which way it'll go!? Does that reality even CROSS your mind? If there are one or two more Conservative justices on the SCOTUS bench and abortion comes up again? You ready to be complicit in helping them make illegal abortion?
<< if you help a Republican get into office >>
<How?>
The more that you do to harm Obama, the easier that you make it for Romney. In the swing states, just a few thousand votes are needed to turn an election one way or another.
<Since you won't do that, I can't take what you're saying seriously. Certainly not to the point of being offended by mean-mouthed shit like "hypocrite" out of you.>
Hmm. "Rockstar", 'eh? Do you even KNOW any actual rockstars? I just ask because I know a lot of'm, and you look more like an ostrich to me than a "Rockstar". Stick y'r head in the sand all that you want. It does not bother me. I know lots of people like you that just want to whine...and after your negative efforts have caused negative results, you'll just whine more.
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Mon, June 18, 2012 - 2:17 AM<<Do you even KNOW any actual rockstars?>>
Boy, you really are a font of foolish irrelevant questions aren't you?
I suppose next you'll be asking if I like "Less filling" better than "Tastes great" or inquiring after the number of silverfish in my household.
<< The point is...>>
On your head?
<<it is the Conservative appointees that made the case stick. >>
Gee, how did those Conservatives get there? Did Zeus miracle them onto the bench?
<< If Obama is in office for another term, he will place one, maybe TWO SCOTUS justices on the bench.>>
Gosh, how many judges did Jimmy Cater appoint in 4 years? -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Mon, June 18, 2012 - 10:52 AM<Gee, how did those Conservatives get there? Did Zeus miracle them onto the bench?>
Um, idiot Dems voted Green in Florida?
<Gosh, how many judges did Jimmy Cater appoint in 4 years?>
Oh. Right. You don't understand what you're talking about. I keep forgetting that.
Nevermind. -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Mon, June 18, 2012 - 7:30 PMand plenty of democrats stayed home. everybody needs a scapegoat. -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Mon, June 18, 2012 - 8:52 PM<and plenty of democrats stayed home. everybody needs a scapegoat.>
Sure, and those are who I am worried about today. Those that will simply NOT vote. Those that would NEVER vote for a Republican, but all of the negativity about Obama will make them sit this one out. Can you imagine a Romney presidency? Can you imagine a Romney presidency BECAUSE some who sat it out did so because many Dems in-effect convinced them to do so?
<Btw, since SCOTUS decided the 2000 election on a 5-4 party line vote, you could've scarcely picked a worse example!>
"Rockstar", I will rejoin you in conversation for this ONE POINT...um...you just MADE my point. The SCOTUS had a part in that situation...how many justices did Bush I put on the SCOTUS? H.W. put one (Clarence Thomas - arguably the WORST choice, EVER), Bush II then put two, and Obama has put two. So, there is in all probability one during the next president's tenure, which will be a Liberal. So, that means that all of the 5-4 votes will then have either one more conservative vote, or a safe stasis with another liberal up there. BUT, there could be two more since Kennedy & Scalia are in the mid-70's. So...if you are following here, if Clinton had been able to put one more on, there's maybe a chance that the court would have gone the other way (which, by the way, would not have changed the results, but that's another issue).
So, Gerbil...I know that Obama has let you down, but during an election cycle to ridiculously; in-effect, harm Obama? That works so far beyond your interests as to be shocking to me that a thinking person (and, there are few & far been examples of that here) would take steps that would harm themselves in such a stupid manner. -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Tue, June 19, 2012 - 2:10 AM<< I will rejoin you in conversation for this ONE POINT >>
See below. You might as well not bothered.
<< you just MADE my point. The SCOTUS had a part in that situation >>
No, silly. That's *my* point. You were still busy playing with your nine widdle toes over there in Sellout Land when I told you the facts of life on how fake Democrats lose every time you try that "lesser of two evils" shit. It's amazing to think Kerry, Mondale and Dukakis taught you nothing, but there it is.
<< how many justices did Bush I put on the SCOTUS? H.W. put one >>
No, Einstein, he put two. David Souter and Clarence Thomas.
Amazing. A guy who can't even count to *TWO* thinks he has a valid political opinion!
Maybe after you pull your foot out of your throat you can tell the class all about how *liberals* fucked up and elected Bush, Sr.!
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Wed, June 20, 2012 - 11:08 AM<Sure, and those are who I am worried about today. Those that will simply NOT vote. Those that would NEVER vote for a Republican, but all of the negativity about Obama will make them sit this one out.>
you talk as if obama has no responsibility for all the negativity about him coming from the left. which stikes me as bizarre.
<Can you imagine a Romney presidency?>
pretty easily considering we're living through one.
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Mon, June 18, 2012 - 8:14 PM<Gee, how did those Conservatives get there? Did Zeus miracle them onto the bench?>
Um, idiot Dems voted Green in Florida? >>
Um, most of the world remembers it as "chickenshit Dems who let Dubya roll right over them," but you're clearly still too traumatized to remember the occasion properly.
Btw, since SCOTUS decided the 2000 election on a 5-4 party line vote, you could've scarcely picked a worse example!
<< You don't understand what you're talking about. >>
Said the guy who makes at least one major factual error every post. I may yet take up a collection to send you through GED prep..
Again, how many Supremes did Jimmy Carter appoint while President?
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Mon, June 18, 2012 - 12:47 PM<<Hmm. "Rockstar", 'eh? Do you even KNOW any actual rockstars? I just ask because I know a lot of'm, and you look more like an ostrich to me than a "Rockstar".
You are seriously out of line bud. -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Tue, June 19, 2012 - 1:45 AM<< Do you even KNOW any actual rockstars? >>
I'm pleased to announce the above came in second in the "Dumbest Question Asked on the Internet" sweepstakes for June 17th, 2012.
The winner, Mr. Cledus Magid of Truth or Consequences, NM, asked "Who painted my left nut green?" on a little-known Facebook thread and received $38.47 in S&H Green Stamps.
Andrew came in second and won a case of hiccups.
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Mon, June 18, 2012 - 12:44 PM<<I await an astounding display of linguistic contortions regarding how anyone can be hypocritical to something they don't believe in.
Unfortunately Andrew has a habit of using words and phrases where they really don't apply.
<<Um, SCOTUS already *did* decide that, Andrew. Game over. Lay off a coupla shots of that Aqua Velva and think for a moment about how this government actually works.
Actually they are revisiting decision as we speak. not that they would strike the whole thing, but aspects of it are being reconsidered. And problems arising due to the Citizens ruling could end up in front of the court again in the future.
<<I'd damn sure be ringing every doorbell in America pleading the case for Obama if I were you.
He would just respond in a snarky manner if they disagreed with them, and then he would call them a "hypocrite".
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Mon, June 18, 2012 - 12:40 PM<<Hypocrite. All of you that want to tear down the Dems & Obama in particular are ridiculous hypocrites.
In what manner does any of this = hypocrisy as it is defined in the english language? What specifically are you talking about?
<<You whine about Citizen's United, but don't you understand that it's the SCOTUS that will in the end decide that
I think everyone know that SCOTUS will decide that, and nothing written here indicates anyone thought otherwise. So what specifically are you talkinga bout?
<<and if you help a Republican get into office, he'll post two more conservative justices and we'll have no hope of getting rid of Citizen's United
Who in this thread is trying to help a Republican in to office? What specifically are you talking about?
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Mon, June 18, 2012 - 2:48 PM<I think everyone know that SCOTUS will decide that, and nothing written here indicates anyone thought otherwise. So what specifically are you talkinga bout?>
My point all along is that people that are working to tear down Obama are HELPING Romney. And, when Romney is in office in-part because of them, they will get their rewards.
<Who in this thread is trying to help a Republican in to office? What specifically are you talking about?>
By working to harm Obama, you are helping Romney. There are intelligent ways to go about political opposition. During an election cycle, when people harm Obama in any context they are HELPING Romney. That's just a fact.
<He would just respond in a snarky manner if they disagreed with them, and then he would call them a "hypocrite".>
Jeff, shhhh.
<You are seriously out of line bud.>
I'm going to change my name to 'Male Model'.
There, just did it. -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Mon, June 18, 2012 - 4:23 PM<<My point all along is that people that are working to tear down Obama are HELPING Romney.
Sure, there are some that "tear down" Obama. But most of what you are responding to, such as the varying information Gerbil provides, is in reality constructive criticism. And while some that actually do "tear down" Obama may be helping Romney, you are certainly not going to change minds by tearing those people down by way of insults and constant snarky responses. Use the veracity of your argument, not the vileness of your tongue.
<<By working to harm Obama, you are helping Romney.
Color me confused, but I am not working to "harm Obama". And ultimately others opinions of him on this little known tribe is a piss in the bucket and will have little impact (if any) on the election. This is the place to discuss these issues, it is healthy for Democracy.
<<There are intelligent ways to go about political opposition.
And there are intelligent ways to discuss the issues with those that oppose Obama, and I can tell you right now that insults is not he intelligent direction to take.
<<During an election cycle, when people harm Obama in any context they are HELPING Romney. That's just a fact.
I really doubt that anyone here is "harming Obama", that is over-exaggerated B.S.
<<<He would just respond in a snarky manner if they disagreed with them, and then he would call them a "hypocrite".>
Jeff, shhhh. <<
And then when he did not like what they had to say he would respond with "shhhhhh", because that always convinces people!
<<I'm going to change my name to 'Male Model'.
There, just did it. >>
You are spouting gibberish again. You can name yourself whatever you want, knock yourself out, it IS a free country, and yes....people have nicknames. Deal with it and discuss the subject rather than making fun of the way people look. People I might add that have the balls to use their real picture. As far as we know you might have a giant goider growing out of your neck, it is not relevant to anything we are discussing here. -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Mon, June 18, 2012 - 5:16 PMIn the end, Obama is not a Caesar; he has not the power to rule without a high degree is synergistic cooperation from Congress and the Courts...
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Mon, June 18, 2012 - 8:42 PM<But most of what you are responding to, such as the varying information Gerbil provides, is in reality constructive criticism.>
During an election cycle, ANYTHING that you do that could either a) convince the swing voters, or b) convince those that you turn off, to not vote - that is what I am speaking about.
<And while some that actually do "tear down" Obama may be helping Romney, you are certainly not going to change minds by tearing those people down by way of insults and constant snarky responses.>
Not to worry. I'm not trying to change your mind. I know that's not possible.
<Use the veracity of your argument, not the vileness of your tongue.>
You were pretty happy about that line, 'eh?
<Color me confused, but I am not working to "harm Obama".>
You injected yourself into this conversation, so it's on wonder that I never accused you of "working to "harm Obama".
<And there are intelligent ways to discuss the issues with those that oppose Obama, and I can tell you right now that insults is not he intelligent direction to take.>
Look in the mirror and then read that bit aloud.
<I really doubt that anyone here is "harming Obama", that is over-exaggerated B.S.>
Maybe, maybe not. I don't know what people do in their private time.
<People I might add that have the balls to use their real picture.>
Flirt.
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Tue, June 19, 2012 - 1:43 PM<<During an election cycle, ANYTHING that you do that could either a) convince the swing voters, or b) convince those that you turn off, to not vote - that is what I am speaking about.
Sorry bud, but you are proposing a muffling of free speech for political gain. And neither do I buy the idea that this little tribe is going to have any effect on the elections.
<<<And while some that actually do "tear down" Obama may be helping Romney, you are certainly not going to change minds by tearing those people down by way of insults and constant snarky responses.>
Not to worry. I'm not trying to change your mind. I know that's not possible. <<
Illogical, I am already voting for Obama so there is no reason to change my mind in that regard. By your own admission you want people to not be critical of the President before the election, but your tactic in imparting that message is vile and mean spirited, which will only harden peoples positions. This means that your words and tone are counterproductive to your actual goal.<<<Use the veracity of your argument, not the vileness You were pretty happy about that line, 'eh? -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Wed, June 20, 2012 - 4:11 PM<Sorry bud, but you are proposing a muffling of free speech for political gain. And neither do I buy the idea that this little tribe is going to have any effect on the elections.>
It took you this long to figure that out. Yeah. That's EXACTLY what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that it IS IN YOUR BEST INTERESTS to not harm Obama's re-election. It does not take a genius to understand this idea. If something is in our best interests, it is foolish to work AGAINST your best interests, and it's in your best interests to not do anything to harm Obama's re-election.
<Illogical, I am already voting for Obama so there is no reason to change my mind in that regard.>
Follow along. I'm not questioning your opinion about voting for Obama. I am questioning your defense of championing speaking out AGAINST him during an election cycle. There's NOTHING positive that could come out of that. He's not going to change anything in the next few months, so you're just working AGAINST your own interests. That is stupid. It may make you feel better to do so, but...then again, heroin does that also.
<but your tactic in imparting that message is vile and mean spirited, which will only harden peoples positions.>
I have very, very rarely found that a 'true believer' will change his or her mind no matter what information is presented in whatever manner. Gerbil will continue to speak out, as will you - no matter if you are working with or against your best interests.
<This means that your words and tone are counterproductive to your actual goal>
Jeff, no amount of nice-talk will affect you. You just want to argue. That fact has been obvious for years. I just still tolerate discussions with you because it's my off-steam. I have a rather stressful life at this point, so fucking around here is a good pressure valve.
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Thu, June 21, 2012 - 10:27 AM<<<Sorry bud, but you are proposing a muffling of free speech for political gain. And neither do I buy the idea that this little tribe is going to have any effect on the elections.>
It took you this long to figure that out. Yeah. That's EXACTLY what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that it IS IN YOUR BEST INTERESTS to not harm Obama's re-election.<<
You are having reading comprehension problems bud, read what I wrote and then put forth an appropriate response to my words. 1.) You are suggesting that we muffle free speech, I reject that. 2.) Our words on this tribe are not going to "harm Obama's re-election. So I am unsure as to what specifically you are saying I just "figured out", it is not even a logical response to what I wrote.
<<It does not take a genius to understand this idea.
I absolutely understand what you are proposing, I just reject it. You are once again confusing disagreement with your point with understanding your point. They are not one in the same, you are failing basic logic.
<<it is foolish to work AGAINST your best interests
Free speech IS in my best interest, and I choose what my best interest is, not you.
<< I am questioning your defense of championing speaking out AGAINST him during an election cycle.
Yes, I am a champion for free speech. Contstructive criticism is healthy for Demcoracy, healthy for our party, and healthy for the entire system. I support Obama and personally choose to focus on the 85% of his policies I agree with, but at the same time I will defend to my death my fellow Americans right to free speech. Open dialogue is healthy, and ultimately muzzling free speech is against my self interest being that I support free speech as a fundamental aspect of any free nation.
<<There's NOTHING positive that could come out of that.
And neither is there anything negative coming out of it being that this tribe will have no effect on the elections, period. You sir are exaggerating.
<<That is stupid. It may make you feel better to do so, but...then again, heroin does that also.
What is stupid is to compare free speech and open dialogue to heroin addiction. Once again you have went off the rails.
<<I have very, very rarely found that a 'true believer' will change his or her mind no matter what information is presented in whatever manner.
You just debunked your own argument, LOL!
<<<This means that your words and tone are counterproductive to your actual goal>
Jeff, no amount of nice-talk will affect you. <>>
It would not have to being that I am already voting for Obama and am not focusing on the 15% of his policies I disagree with. We are not talking about convincing me now are we Andrew? You fail basic logic yet again.
<<I have a rather stressful life at this point, so fucking around here is a good pressure valve.
As it is for many people, which is why this is a good place for others to rant and rave about those things they find objectionable. But now it seems that you only think it is you that can engage in this practice. The world does not revolve around you or your agenda, this is a place for open dialogue rather than a cheerleading blog for the President, and it should remain as such. Deal with it and stop your fucking whining.
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Thu, June 21, 2012 - 12:59 PM<< I'm suggesting that it IS IN YOUR BEST INTERESTS to not harm Obama's re-election.>>
Wow. A concern troll. How original is that?
Thanks, but I'll trust my own notions of self-interest if for no other reasons than yours sound repressive, pre-failed and inconsistent with well-established notions of liberty and progress.
Other people, indeed, whole countries have *tried* your conformist, kiss-the-boss's-ass approach to political "change" and results were not impressive. History shows that attempts to produce political stasis usually wind up producing wholesale societal failure. What interest do *you* have in advocating such failure?
Your position is so ahistorical and wildly unrealistic on every level as to be almost Republican.
<< You are once again confusing disagreement with your point with understanding your point. They are not one in the same, you are failing basic logic. >>
Yes. Pay attention to this, old son. -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Fri, June 22, 2012 - 7:55 AMb-b-b-b-but willard will win if you criticize him on tribe! don't you realize that! think of the children! think of poor poor ruth bader ginsburg! think of poor poor stephen breyer! what will we do without them? -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Fri, June 22, 2012 - 9:03 AMwaits for strawman argument that i want romney to win.....
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Tue, June 19, 2012 - 1:49 PM<<<Use the veracity of your argument, not the vileness of your tongue.>
You were pretty happy about that line, 'eh? <<
Yet another illogical response, nothing I have written indicates that I am "happy about that line".
<<<Color me confused, but I am not working to "harm Obama".>
You injected yourself into this conversation, so it's on wonder that I never accused you of "working to "harm Obama". >>
So now simply defending others right to free speech is also harming Obama? Yet more illogicality.
<<Look in the mirror and then read that bit aloud.
Yet more illogicality. How about if you use sentences, words, and phrases that are actually appropriate responses to what is written?
<<<I really doubt that anyone here is "harming Obama", that is over-exaggerated B.S.>
Maybe, maybe not. I don't know what people do in their private time<<
And yet more illogicality, we were not speaking of "private time", we were speaking of words written here on this tribe.
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Wed, June 20, 2012 - 10:56 AM<Hypocrite. All of you that want to tear down the Dems & Obama in particular are ridiculous hypocrites. You whine about Citizen's United, but don't you understand that it's the SCOTUS that will in the end decide that - and if you help a Republican get into office, he'll post two more conservative justices and we'll have no hope of getting rid of Citizen's United, much less the many other things that they will be free to do.>
if the posted results of an honest factual inspection at obama's actions results in 'tearing him down' it's a reflection on obama, not on the person doing the inspection. if someone posts that an honest factual inspection of obama's actions is bad because it will hurt obama and help the republicans, that is a reflection on that poster. how is someone arguing the facts and truth, transparency and openess are bad, for any reason, not the product of distorted and corrupted mind? which is, of course, what the opening post was all about, obama distorting and corrupting the left in a massive way.
as for the supreme court, ginsberg and breyer, the two most liberal justices, are the two oldest justices. there's a pretty good chance they would be the next ones replaced, and even if obama were to get another term and were to have a chance to replace a justice, chances are it wouldn't change the conservatives advantage. -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Wed, June 20, 2012 - 4:20 PM<if the posted results of an honest factual inspection at obama's actions results in 'tearing him down' it's a reflection on obama, not on the person doing the inspection>
I agree. But let's tear that situation apart.
1) Yes. Tell the truth about what Obama does, and; while you are holding fast to your integrity with this issue, in the meantime, you are working against your OWN BEST INTERESTS in harming Obama as you say these things here AND in the real world where your vociferous denunciation of Obama may just convince some people not to get out of bed & vote for him.
2) Hold your denunciations until after the election - or, even more, hold your nose and work for his re-election, because that way, even though we all disagree with many things that he's done & doing, it works in our BEST INTERESTS to do all that we feel is necessary to make sure that Romney is NOT in the Oval Office for the next four years.
<how is someone arguing the facts and truth, transparency and openess are bad, for any reason, not the product of distorted and corrupted mind?>
Because, if your efforts of relating "the facts and truth, transparency and openess" causes people who otherwise would have gotten out of bed and vote for to not do so. That works against your BEST INTERESTS.
<as for the supreme court, ginsberg and breyer, the two most liberal justices, are the two oldest justices. there's a pretty good chance they would be the next ones replaced, and even if obama were to get another term and were to have a chance to replace a justice, chances are it wouldn't change the conservatives advantage.>
Good. We're getting somewhere.
YEs, the two most liberal justices are the next two presumably up. The next President may just place two justices up there. If it's Obama, he'll post two presumably more-liberal justices. If it's Romney, he'll post two presumably LESS-liberal justices.
Which one works more in your BEST INTERESTS. Which one is worse? A rather simple answer to that one, 'eh?
<you talk as if obama has no responsibility for all the negativity about him coming from the left. which stikes me as bizarre.>
No. I have never suggested that. I am just suggesting that to harm his re-election is counterproductive.
<pretty easily considering we're living through one.>
OK. Shit. I tried to have a reasonable discussion with intelligent & thinking adults. Lessons learned. -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Thu, June 21, 2012 - 7:04 AM<OK. Shit. I tried to have a reasonable discussion with intelligent & thinking adults. Lessons learned>
your arguments are predicated on the idea obama NEEDS to win in 2012 and that as a progressive i (or whomever) would be committing an act of insanity to NOT want him to win another term.
i consider obama has been FAR more disastrous to our future than john mccain could have possibly been.
i also consider it a moot point. i don't think obama has the desire or intention to be president for four more years knowing what's coming. the establishment isn't even bothering to make a token effort to cover up the final police state pieces being put in place in anticipation of mass insurrections and riots by the masses. it's utterly brazen. and they feel utterly safe.
indefinite detentions, elimination of habeaus corpus, 20,000 drones in the skies, the entirety of wired and wireless communications being monitored, military okayed for domestic operations, fully militarized police forces ... it's flashing red lights and claxxons pounding in the ears clear what the future holds.
when that future arrives it doesn't take a genius to see the perils of being a black man, already hated and detested my millions, in charge of a disintegrating country and directing massive force against the people. there's not enough security in the world to see him into dotage.
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Sat, June 23, 2012 - 4:15 PM<your arguments are predicated on the idea obama NEEDS to win in 2012 and that as a progressive i (or whomever) would be committing an act of insanity to NOT want him to win another term.>
Well. Yes. The only alternative is someone who is SO MUCH WORSE, that it is suicidal to your whole belief system to allow someone who is so much worse to inhabit that office instead of the guy that will be so much better.
<i consider obama has been FAR more disastrous to our future than john mccain could have possibly been.>
Fine - but that's not part of the discussion. McCain is not running for president, and Romney is far worse than is McCain, in my opinion.
<indefinite detentions, elimination of habeaus corpus, 20,000 drones in the skies, the entirety of wired and wireless communications being monitored, military okayed for domestic operations, fully militarized police forces ... it's flashing red lights and claxxons pounding in the ears clear what the future holds.>
And, Romney would do all of that and far worse.
<1.) You are suggesting that we muffle free speech>
Boy, talk about "reading comprehension". No, it's not muffling free speech to make a choice to not harm out best interests. You are already allowed to speak out - no one is suggesting that you can not do that. My suggestion is that you be smarter than be reflexive. It's smarter to do things in your best interests in the short & long term. Helping IN ANY WAY to harm Obama's reelection is NOT in your best interests. If you were to liming 100% your discussions to the five people here, you'd be doing very little damage, but if you do it to ONE person out there in the real world, then there's the danger. Where do you get this stuff?
<I reject that>
Hardly a surprise.
<2.) Our words on this tribe are not going to "harm Obama's re-election.>
Read above.
<I absolutely understand what you are proposing, I just reject it.>
I know. It does not take a genius to understand this. How hysterical.
<You are once again confusing disagreement with your point with understanding your point>
No I am not. Do what you want, Jeff.
<Free speech IS in my best interest,>
Oh, god. You think that this discussion is about "free speech". How laughable.
<and I choose what my best interest is, not you.>
True. I never said that I was choosing for you.
<Yes, I am a champion for free speech.>
Why are you making this about "free speech"? It's NOT about that. No one is trying to take away anyone's free speech. I'm suggesting that harming Obama's reelection is against everyone's best interests. Please quote for me where I am trying to stop any free speech? You can't. Now, you will go and tell us all how you interpreted this from what I wrote, and then say that's what I meant...but...you've failed. Again.
<Contstructive criticism is healthy for Demcoracy, healthy for our party, and healthy for the entire system.>
Depends, right? Is it "healthy" if it contributes Romney's election?
<And neither is there anything negative coming out of it being that this tribe will have no effect on the elections, period. You sir are exaggerating.>
Depends - do you know that Tribe is the only place people here complain about Obama? I doubt that all these people limit their complaints to this loony bin.
<You just debunked your own argument, LOL!>
No. I said "true believer". I am concerned - and I have written this MANY TIMES - that it is the swing voters in swing states that will be affected.
<Deal with it and stop your fucking whining.>
HA! Name ONE line of me "whining". Oh, right. Again, you can't do it.
<The constant slimy backhanded insults are just not appropriate in an adult discussion bud.>
Says St. Jeff.
<waits for strawman argument that i want romney to win.....>
Just don't hold y'r. We'll need a new Mod, and that'll be a mess.
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Sun, June 24, 2012 - 12:33 PM<<<1.) You are suggesting that we muffle free speech>
Boy, talk about "reading comprehension". No, it's not muffling free speech to make a choice to not harm out best interests<<
Bullshit. You are asking people to shut their mouths based on what you consider to be their own self interest. When reality is such that this is America and people get to decide their own best self interest. Suggesting people not express their political opinion in an election year is by it's very nature muffling free speech. If they make that choice on their own, then that is fine. But they need not take directives from you to curb their free speech.
<<Helping IN ANY WAY to harm Obama's reelection is NOT in your best interests.
You are still working under the idiotic assumption that this little tribe is going to sway the election in Romney's favor.
<<but if you do it to ONE person out there in the real world, then there's the danger.
As you yourself said, peoples positions are already entrenched in that regard. So even if Rockstar spoke to ONE person, it is highly doubtful it would sway the election.
<<I absolutely understand what you are proposing, I just reject it.>
I know. <<
You obviously did not know being that you indicated that I did not understand your words. Clearly I understood, and clearly I rejected. You keep failing basic logic over and over.
<<You are once again confusing disagreement with your point with understanding your point>
No I am not.<<
Your own words indicate otherwise.
<<<Free speech IS in my best interest,>
Oh, god. You think that this discussion is about "free speech". How laughable.>>
Yes, it is absolutely about open and honest dialogue in an election year. You want people to shut up for political purposes, I want people to engage in open dialogue, ie., free speech.
<<<and I choose what my best interest is, not you.>
True. I never said that I was choosing for you.<<
You are telling others what their best self interest is, even ridiculing people for going against what you have determined is their best self interest. It is not up to you to determine what anothers best self interest is, period.
<<I'm suggesting that harming Obama's reelection is against everyone's best interests.
<<Please quote for me where I am trying to stop any free speech?
In every single sentence where you are telling people to shut up because they are harming what you have determined is their best interest. It is all here for everyone to see, it can't be denied.
Exactly, you are telling people what their best self intertest is and then telling them to shut their mouths and supress a free and open dialogue for political purposes. You once again just did what you claimed you are not doing. Funny that.
<<<Contstructive criticism is healthy for Demcoracy, healthy for our party, and healthy for the entire system.>
Depends, right? Is it "healthy" if it contributes Romney's election? <<
I reject your premise that free and open dialogue would contribute to Romney's election.
<<HA! Name ONE line of me "whining".
Everything you have written whining about people engaging in free and open dialogue about Obama's policies, just read this thread. -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Mon, June 25, 2012 - 8:49 PM<Bullshit. You are asking people to shut their mouths based on what you consider to be their own self interest.>
Dude, here goes the semantic argument ...
You wrote, "You are suggesting that we muffle free speech", to which I replied, "it's not muffling free speech to make a choice to not harm out best interests". Where did I try to "muffle" anyone's free speech? Making a tactical decision not to harm YOUR OWN BEST INTERESTS, IS NOT 'muffling' anything.
<Suggesting people not express their political opinion in an election year is by it's very nature muffling free speech.>
Dude..."Suggesting" something IS NOT "muffling free speech". I do not have the power to muffle ANYTHING. I am making a suggestion that one does not take an action that is against your OWN best interests. That's not "muffling" anything. Making a suggestion IS NOT "muffling". Where do you get this shit? It's SO obvious that you overreached here, and you are just digging in your heels.
This is a perfect example of what I said in another thread, about you just arguing to argue. It's so obvious that you're wrong here, but you'll just insist that you are. Even you have to recognize it, but you won't admit it because ... to have to admit to ME that I am right and y'r wrong? ImPOSSIBLE.
<If they make that choice on their own, then that is fine. But they need not take directives from you to curb their free speech.>
Who here can I direct? I can't give "directives" to anyone. I made a suggestion. So, first I was "muffling" people, and now I am giving "directives"? HA!
<You are still working under the idiotic assumption that this little tribe is going to sway the election in Romney's favor.>
I have stated OVER AND OVER that I'm not talking about HERE. I have stated a number of times that I am talking about in situations where it COULD matter. Over and over. Over and over and over.
<As you yourself said, peoples positions are already entrenched in that regard.>
I never stated that at all. Never. In most swing states, ~10% of the population go back and forth.
<So even if Rockstar spoke to ONE person, it is highly doubtful it would sway the election.>
It's IMPOSSIBLE that "ONE person...would sway the election". But, I'm talking about this as a macro issue. If all the unhappy Lefties spoke out as much as they are doing, they will harm their own cause.
<<Oh, god. You think that this discussion is about "free speech". How laughable.>>
<Yes, it is absolutely about open and honest dialogue in an election year.>
There's a difference between "free speech" and "open and honest dialogue". This is another laughable statement that I'll add to your "muffling" & my "giving directives".
<You want people to shut up for political purposes, I want people to engage in open dialogue, ie., free speech.>
Yes. Where is it that I am "muffling" anyone? I am leaving it up to each person's intelligence - that's not "muffling" anything or anyone. Where is my "directive"? This is a suggestion...a logical suggestion for what is in your best interests...it's not a "directive". That's 0/2. So, how am I "muffling...free speech" by my "directives"?
<You are telling others what their best self interest is, even ridiculing people for going against what you have determined is their best self interest.>
Yup.
<It is not up to you to determine what anothers best self interest is, period.>
But, it IS up to me to express MY OPINION of what is in your best interest...and a Romney presidency IS NOT in ANYONE'S best interest. That's my opinion. I'm ALWAYS speaking in my own opinion. It's impossible for me to "direct" or "muffle" or whatever else here. I am just speaking my opinions.
<In every single sentence where you are telling people to shut up because they are harming what you have determined is their best interest.>
Yes. That's not "muffling". It's a suggestion, because I have no ability to cause a "directive" to any of you.
<Exactly, you are telling people what their best self intertest is and then telling them to shut their mouths and supress a free and open dialogue for political purposes.>
I did not tell you to do anything. I am suggesting that you act in your best interests. You have added the rest of this bullshit, because remember...you said that I have "muffled" "free speech" through my "directives". I have done no such thing. I have suggested that you act in your own best interests. That's it. You can choose to do what is in your best interests, or you can choose to work AGAINST your own best interests. It's your choice.
<I reject your premise that free and open dialogue would contribute to Romney's election.>
Yes. You've said so. I disagree. C'est la vie.
<Everything you have written whining about people engaging in free and open dialogue about Obama's policies, just read this thread.>
"whining". Got it. I don't think that you really understand most of what you wrote. You just accused me of "muffling" people's "free speech" with my "directives" and "whining", but I have done none of those four. You accuse me of "whining" because it's a manipulation to cause me to respond or subconsciously create an air of a lack of control or childish behavior in order to manipulatively minimize my argument. What's hyyyyysterical is that you will decry what others do to you, but then do it yourself. Do you even recognize that you do this? No. Of course you do not. That'd take honest introspection. Not y'r strong suit. You won't even recognize the reality of what I wrote in this thread: ie - "muffled" "directives" "whining". -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Tue, June 26, 2012 - 11:03 AM<<it's not muffling free speech to make a choice to not harm out best interests".
You are telling people to shut up for political purposes, that is YOUR attempt to intimidate others to shut up, which is an attempt to stifle or represss their words, which = muffling free speech. Simple logic bud.
<<Making a tactical decision not to harm YOUR OWN BEST INTERESTS, IS NOT 'muffling' anything.
You are once again deciding what is in others "own best interests". Sorry bud, but you don't speak for the rest of us, only yourself.
<<Dude..."Suggesting" something IS NOT "muffling free speech".
You are doing much more than just making a "suggestion" here bud, you are ridiculing and using harsh language in an attempt to shut people up. You can attempt to bully people all you like, it only reflects poorly on you.
<<This is a perfect example of what I said in another thread, about you just arguing to argue.
That statement could easily be applied to any of the statements you have made in this thread. For instance, you admitted you won't convince these people to stifle their criticism of Obama. And yet you seen fit to argue with them anyway. By your own definition that is arguing just to argue. Hypocrital to say the least bud.
<<It's so obvious that you're wrong here,
It is obvious that you are trying to bully people in to stifling their words and not being critical of Obama. The idea that I am "wrong" is your own self serving determination.
<<Even you have to recognize it, but you won't admit it because.....
......because you create false narratives in your own head about what others are thinking and their subsequent motivations. My stance is one of principle. Your stance is one of subjegation of principle for poltical purposes, and I reject that outright. Do I disagree with many of those on the far left that are Obama bashers? Absolutely. But I would defend to the death their right to put forth whatever constructive criticism they see fit. You on the other hand are attempting to bully others i n to shutting their mouths, and you are not even good at that.
<<Who here can I direct? I can't give "directives" to anyone.
And yet you have barked orders at others to shutup just the same, regardless of your lack of power to convince them.
<<I made a suggestion.
Yours was much more than a "suggestion". A "suggestion" = 1. To offer for consideration or action; propose. You went beyond that with hostile and vile language directed at those that disagree with you.
Andrew: "Thanks to the idiot Left, the American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage". "Fucking idiots." "Hypocrite. All of you that want to tear down the Dems & Obama in particular are ridiculous hypocrites. " "You ready to be complicit in helping them make illegal abortion?" "Hmm. "Rockstar", 'eh? Do you even KNOW any actual rockstars? I just ask because I know a lot of'm, and you look more like an ostrich to me than a "Rockstar". "Um, idiot Dems voted Green in Florida? "
<<<He would just respond in a snarky manner if they disagreed with them, and then he would call them a "hypocrite".>
Jeff, shhhh. <
See, you are trying to muffle free speech, proof positive! :)~
<<Yes. Where is it that I am "muffling" anyone?
You are confused as to what "muffling free speech" is defined as. In this context Muffling = To repress; stifle. You want people to repress or stifle their thoughts on Obama, to keep their mouths shut, that by definition = muffling of free speech
<<I have stated OVER AND OVER that I'm not talking about HERE.
What you have repeatedly said is that people on this tribe are "harming Obama" and "helping" Romney. ALL you have to go on are their words on this tribe, and as you yourself have admitted..... " I don't know what people do in their private time.". So how could you possibly be speaking of that which happens outside this tribe when you yourself have admitted that you don't know what these tribe members do with their time? Obviously you were speaking about the words being expressed here, and now you are once again twisting in the wind in an attempt to change your story. Typical.
<<I have stated a number of times that I am talking about in situations where it COULD matter.
What situations are you speaking of? Please be specific.
<<<As you yourself said, peoples positions are already entrenched in that regard.>
I never stated that at all. Never.>>
I would be embarrassed if it were me constantly forgetting my own words. Andrew: "I have very, very rarely found that a 'true believer' will change his or her mind no matter what information is presented in whatever manner." And obviously you are speaking about the "true believers" on this tribe who are critical of Obama.
<<If all the unhappy Lefties spoke out as much as they are doing, they will harm their own cause.
If you are not talking about the people speaking out here, and you don't know in what manner they are speaking out in their "private time", then what the fuck are you talking about?
<<There's a difference between "free speech" and "open and honest dialogue".
By it's very nature free speech is comprised of open dialogue, and honesty lends itself greatly to the concept of free speech. Freedom of speech is the right to freely say what one pleases, as well as the related right to hear what others have stated. You want to stifle this process, which is anti-free speech.
<<But, it IS up to me to express MY OPINION of what is in your best interest...
It is the height of arrogance to think that you know what is best for others best self interest. That is why it is called "SELF interest" bud.
<< You accuse me of "whining" because it's a manipulation to cause me to respond or subconsciously create an air of a lack of control or childish behavior in order to manipulatively minimize my argument.
That is one of the craziest sounding sentences I have ever heard on this tribe.... Yes, I am in a conpsiracy to manipulate your subconscious in order to get you to respond in a childish manner so I can manipulate your argument......*rolls eyes*.... Your name calling at the outset was childish in nature, blame yourself and take responsibility for your own behavior.
<<What's hyyyyysterical is that you will decry what others do to you, but then do it yourself.
Such as? Please be specific.
<<That'd take honest introspection.
Have you yourself taken time to think about your own racist remarks directed at me? And then the fact that you tried to cover it up by indicating you were joking? Joking or not, 'shhhhh....white men talking here" is some racist shit. Grow a pair and own your words.
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Tue, June 26, 2012 - 2:23 PM<You are telling people to shut up for political purposes, that is YOUR attempt to intimidate others>
HA! So...now I am trying "to intimidate others". That goes along with "muffling", with ...oh, you know the rest.
Jeffy - suggesting that harming your own best interests is cutting off your nose to spite your face IS NOT - to add a new word here - intimidation. It's not "muffling". It's not all the other asinine things that you came up with either. It's a suggestion. Nothing more, nothing less.
<which is an attempt to stifle or represss their words, which = muffling free speech. Simple logic bud.>
I'm suggesting something. This IS NOT "an attempt to stifle or represss their their words". You are just making shit up.
<You are once again deciding what is in others "own best interests". Sorry bud, but you don't speak for the rest of us, only yourself.>
Yes. I am. I AM "once again deciding what is in others "own best interests"." Yes. I am expressing MY OPINION. Espressing MY OWN OPINION, IS NOT "muffling", it's "repressss(ing" and it's not "an attempt to stifle" anything. I'm simply making a suggestion. How are you so lost here?
<You are doing much more than just making a "suggestion" here bud, you are ridiculing and using harsh language in an attempt to shut people up.>
I am ridiculing you. Yes. But, I am not ridiculing your actions but only your responses to my suggestions. There's a difference.
<You can attempt to bully people all you like, it only reflects poorly on you.>
You now need to recognize that my SUGGESTION, my OPINION. I've not bullied anyone. I am telling you to not do things that cut off your nose to spite y'r face. I'm telling you that working AGAINST your own best interests is stupid. That's not me trying to "muffle" anything. Nor is it my telling anyone to "shut up" or "intimidate", nor is it an attempt to "stifle or repress" anything.
What a funny* person you are.
<It is obvious that you are trying to bully people in to stifling their words and not being critical of Obama. The idea that I am "wrong" is your own self serving determination.>
Another PERFECT example of you not understanding what's going on around you. I'm sure that this happens all the time in your life. I categorically AM NOT trying "to bully people into stifling their words". Nope. Just stating my opinion. That's it. Y'r funny*.
<And yet you have barked orders>
HA! Now I have "barked orders"! HA! I'll add that to the list.
<What you have repeatedly said is that people on this tribe are "harming Obama" and "helping" Romney.>
Yes. That's my opinion.
<What situations are you speaking of? Please be specific.>
No. I don't know where it'd matter. It's irrelevant to the conversation.
<<<As you yourself said, peoples positions are already entrenched in that regard.>
<<I never stated that at all. Never.>>
<I would be embarrassed if it were me constantly forgetting my own words. Andrew: "I have very, very rarely found that a 'true believer' will change his or her mind no matter what information is presented in whatever manner.">
HA! So...now you have added "true believer". Yes - OF COURSE - a "true believer" won't change their mind. THAT WAS MY POINT. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THEM! We are talking about what I WROTE ABOUT "In most swing states, ~10% of the population go back and forth." Where do you get this shit?
Oh, nevermind. You're just arguing to argue in the most irrelevant and stupid manner. You - are sad.
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Tue, June 26, 2012 - 2:23 PMLook out, Andrew... Jeff's got your nose.
What's really precious is that all this extensive self-righteous chastisement is coming from a guy that not one month ago simply *deleted* a three-week-running thread, in an outright (failed) attempt to silence and erase (forget "muffling") another's "freedom of expression." Yet he calls himself a "champion of free speech," and then has the gall to say that *you* should be "embarrassed." Dude obviously doesn't know the meaning of "shame," "embarrassment," or "humility" (among so many other terms).
Just don't call him out on any of it, or he'll spout off some sarcasm about how he's a one-man-conspiracy out to do this or that. (no wonder he has such a problem comprehending the idea of conspiracies in government... he obviously doesn't even understand the **meaning of the word** at its most basic level, ie, more than one person)
What's also funny to me is that you're right, if you accept your premise (the premise being that there's any significant difference between the Dems and Repubs, and that one wants Obama to win). Because really, complaining about Obama's policies at this point will really only help Romney (again, if one accepts that there's actually any legitimacy to presidential elections any more). Pointing out Obama's glaring flaws probably isn't going to convince any Democrat/lefty/progressive/whatever to vote for Romney, but it may degrade their support or enthusiasm for the current puppet-in-Chief enough to get them to stay home on election day. And I'm sorry, but any misconceptions that you'll be able to "influence" anything in the administration by highlighting its faults is naive at best. If you're not dropping five figures a plate at a fundraiser, you'll get nothing but lip service (and a lot of those five-figure donors are only going to get lip service too, depending on what their other connections may be). That said, I think it's equally naive to think anything could be "influenced from the inside" in a second term, so downplaying faults to win another election is something that I feel holds little moral merit, though it may be sound "political strategy."
Now, if one would like to highlight the admin's failings in an attempt to illustrate how hypocritical and corrupt the system is on both sides of the aisle, I say go for it. This government needs some kind of reboot. The reason I don't really post any "Romney shenanigans" is because it would just be hollering into an echo chamber in here; does anyone here need someone to tell them that Romney is just another corporate stuffed-shirt shill? I don't think so. But for some bizarre reason, a lot of folks seem to have it in their head that Obama *isn't* just as corrupt and hypocritical as the next puppet, doing the bidding of his corporate overlords (who was it again that got the most Goldman Sachs money in 2008?), so I try to post stuff that will illustrate the error in that thinking.
P.S. Hey Jeff... that's "subjUgation." -
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Tue, June 26, 2012 - 3:58 PM<< Pointing out Obama's glaring flaws probably isn't going to convince any Democrat/lefty/progressive/whatever to vote for Romney, but it may degrade their support or enthusiasm for the current puppet-in-Chief enough to get them to stay home on election day. >>
Plausible, but I kinda doubt this, for the simple reason that the Romney campaign is working triple-overtime scaring the bejabbers out of everybody to the left of Idi Amin! Those who thought he'd trim to the so-called "Center" are being proved dolts and dimwits yet again.
Bottom line is Mitt needs the vote of every far-Right screwhead in America in order to crack even double digits on the Electoral College map. He won't stop appealing to these goons any time soon, if ever, and the more he does, the deeper the hole he digs with everyone else.
Andrew's simply got the whole thing wrong.
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Mon, October 8, 2012 - 4:37 PM<<i also consider it a moot point. i don't think obama has the desire or intention to be president for four more years knowing what's coming. the establishment isn't even bothering to make a token effort to cover up the final police state pieces being put in place in anticipation of mass insurrections and riots by the masses. it's utterly brazen. and they feel utterly safe.
indefinite detentions, elimination of habeaus corpus, 20,000 drones in the skies, the entirety of wired and wireless communications being monitored, military okayed for domestic operations, fully militarized police forces ... it's flashing red lights and claxxons pounding in the ears clear what the future holds.
when that future arrives it doesn't take a genius to see the perils of being a black man, already hated and detested my millions, in charge of a disintegrating country and directing massive force against the people. there's not enough security in the world to see him into dotage.>>
hence obama throwing the debate. he want's OUT. but first he had to take the primary to shut out any possibility of an actual progressive running for president.
did i nail this or what? ... i STILL see squat in the media that obama doesn't want another term and deliberately blew the debate. christ but people are blind and easily deluded.
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Re: "Thanks to Obama, American Left Lies in Smoldering Wreckage"
Thu, June 21, 2012 - 10:32 AM<<OK. Shit. I tried to have a reasonable discussion with intelligent & thinking adults. Lessons learned.
See what I mean? The constant slimy backhanded insults are just not appropriate in an adult discussion bud.
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