Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

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Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth
by Michael Parenti
www.dissidentvoice.org
December 27, 2003
First Published in the Michael Parenti Archive



Throughout the ages there has prevailed a distressing symbiosis between religion and violence. The histories of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and Islam are heavily laced with internecine vendettas, inquisitions, and wars. Again and again, religionists have claimed a divine mandate to terrorize and massacre heretics, infidels, and other sinners.

Some people have argued that Buddhism is different, that it stands in marked contrast to the chronic violence of other religions. To be sure, as practiced by many in the United States, Buddhism is more a "spiritual" and psychological discipline than a theology in the usual sense. It offers meditative techniques and self-treatments that are said to promote "enlightenment" and harmony within oneself. But like any other belief system, Buddhism must be judged not only by its teachings but by the actual behavior of its proponents.

Buddhist Exceptionalism?

A glance at history reveals that Buddhist organizations have not been free of the violent pursuits so characteristic of religious groups throughout the ages. In Tibet, from the early seventeenth century well into the eighteenth, competing Buddhist sects engaged in armed hostilities and summary executions. [1] In the twentieth century, from Thailand to Burma to Korea to Japan, Buddhists have clashed with each other and with non-Buddhists. In Sri Lanka, huge battles in the name of Buddhism are part of Sinhalese history. [2]

Just a few years ago in South Korea, thousands of monks of the Chogye Buddhist order---reputedly devoted to a meditative search for spiritual enlightenment---fought each other with fists, rocks, fire-bombs, and clubs, in pitched battles that went on for weeks. They were vying for control of the order, the largest in South Korea, with its annual budget of $9.2 million, its additional millions of dollars in property, and the privilege of appointing 1,700 monks to various duties. The brawls partly destroyed the main Buddhist sanctuaries and left dozens of monks injured, some seriously. Both warring factions claimed public support. In fact, Korean citizens appeared to disdain both sides, feeling that no matter what clique of monks took control of an order, it would use worshippers' donations to amass wealth, including houses and expensive cars. According to one news report, the mêlée within the Chogye Buddhist order (much of it carried on Korean television) "shatter[ed] the image of Buddhist Enlightenment." [3]

But many present-day Buddhists in the United States would argue that none of this applies to the Dalai Lama and the Tibet he presided over before the Chinese crackdown in 1959. The Dalai Lama's Tibet, they believe, was a spiritually oriented kingdom, free from the egotistical lifestyles, empty materialism, pointless pursuits, and corrupting vices that beset modern industrialized society. Western news media, and a slew of travel books, novels, and Hollywood films have portrayed the Tibetan theocracy as a veritable Shangri-La and the Dalai Lama as a wise saint, "the greatest living human," as actor Richard Gere gushed. [4]

The Dalai Lama himself lent support to this idealized image of Tibet with statements such as: "Tibetan civilization has a long and rich history. The pervasive influence of Buddhism and the rigors of life amid the wide open spaces of an unspoiled environment resulted in a society dedicated to peace and harmony. We enjoyed freedom and contentment." [5] In fact, Tibet's history reads a little differently. In the thirteenth century, Emperor Kublai Khan created the first Grand Lama, who was to preside over all the other lamas as might a pope over his bishops. Several centuries later, the Emperor of China sent an army into Tibet to support the Grand Lama, an ambitious 25-year-old man, who then gave himself the title of Dalai (Ocean) Lama, ruler of all Tibet. Here is quite a historical irony: the first Dalai Lama was installed by a Chinese army.

To elevate his authority beyond worldly challenge, the first Dalai Lama seized monasteries that did not belong to his sect, and is believed to have destroyed Buddhist writings that conflicted with his claim to divinity. [6] The Dalai Lama who succeeded him pursued a sybaritic life, enjoying many mistresses, partying with friends, writing erotic poetry, and acting in other ways that might seem unfitting for an incarnate deity. For this he was "disappeared" by his priests. Within 170 years, despite their recognized status as gods, five Dalai Lamas were murdered by their high priests or other nonviolent Buddhist courtiers. [7]

Shangri-La (for Lords and Lamas)

Religions have had a close relationship not only with violence but with economic exploitation. Indeed, it is often the economic exploitation that necessitates the violence. Such was the case with the Tibetan theocracy. Until 1959, when the Dalai Lama last presided over Tibet, most of the arable land was still organized into religious or secular manorial estates worked by serfs. Even a writer like Pradyumna Karan, sympathetic to the old order, admits that "a great deal of real estate belonged to the monasteries, and most of them amassed great riches. . . . In addition, individual monks and lamas were able to accumulate great wealth through active participation in trade, commerce, and money lending." [8] Drepung monastery was one of the biggest landowners in the world, with its 185 manors, 25,000 serfs, 300 great pastures, and 16,000 herdsmen. The wealth of the monasteries went to the higher-ranking lamas, many of them scions of aristocratic families, while most of the lower clergy were as poor as the peasant class from which they sprang. This class-determined economic inequality within the Tibetan clergy closely parallels that of the Christian clergy in medieval Europe.

Along with the upper clergy, secular leaders did well. A notable example was the commander-in-chief of the Tibetan army, who owned 4,000 square kilometers of land and 3,500 serfs. He also was a member of the Dalai Lama's lay Cabinet. [9] Old Tibet has been misrepresented by some of its Western admirers as "a nation that required no police force because its people voluntarily observed the laws of karma." [10] In fact, it had a professional army, albeit a small one, that served as a gendarmerie for the landlords to keep order and catch runaway serfs. [11]

Young Tibetan boys were regularly taken from their families and brought into the monasteries to be trained as monks. Once there, they became bonded for life. Tashì-Tsering, a monk, reports that it was common practice for peasant children to be sexually mistreated in the monasteries. He himself was a victim of repeated childhood rape not long after he was taken into the monastery at age nine. [12] The monastic estates also conscripted peasant children for lifelong servitude as domestics, dance performers, and soldiers.

In Old Tibet there were small numbers of farmers who subsisted as a kind of free peasantry, and perhaps an additional 10,000 people who composed the "middle-class" families of merchants, shopkeepers, and small traders. Thousands of others were beggars. A small minority were slaves, usually domestic servants, who owned nothing. Their offspring were born into slavery. [13]

In 1953, the greater part of the rural population---some 700,000 of an estimated total population of 1,250,000---were serfs. Tied to the land, they were allotted only a small parcel to grow their own food. Serfs and other peasants generally went without schooling or medical care. They spent most of their time laboring for the monasteries and individual high-ranking lamas, or for a secular aristocracy that numbered not more than 200 families. In effect, they were owned by their masters who told them what crops to grow and what animals to raise. They could not get married without the consent of their lord or lama. A serf might easily be separated from his family should the owner send him to work in a distant location. Serfs could be sold by their masters, or subjected to torture and death. [14]

A Tibetan lord would often take his pick of females in the serf population, if we are to believe one 22-year old woman, herself a runaway serf: "All pretty serf girls were usually taken by the owner as house servants and used as he wished." They "were just slaves without rights." [15] Serfs needed permission to go anywhere. Landowners had legal authority to capture and forcibly bring back those who tried to flee. A 24-year old runaway serf, interviewed by Anna Louise Strong, welcomed the Chinese intervention as a "liberation." During his time as a serf he claims he was not much different from a draft animal, subjected to incessant toil, hunger, and cold, unable to read or write, and knowing nothing at all. He tells of his attempts to flee:

The first time [the landlord's men] caught me running away, I was very small, and they only cuffed me and cursed me. The second time they beat me up. The third time I was already fifteen and they gave me fifty heavy lashes, with two men sitting on me, one on my head and one on my feet. Blood came then from my nose and mouth. The overseer said: "This is only blood from the nose; maybe you take heavier sticks and bring some blood from the brain." They beat then with heavier sticks and poured alcohol and water with caustic soda on the wounds to make more pain. I passed out for two hours. [16]

In addition to being under a lifetime bond to work the lord's land---or the monastery's land---without pay, the serfs were obliged to repair the lord's houses, transport his crops, and collect his firewood. They were also expected to provide carrying animals and transportation on demand. "It was an efficient system of economic exploitation that guaranteed to the country's religious and secular elites a permanent and secure labor force to cultivate their land holdings without burdening them either with any direct day-to-day responsibility for the serf's subsistence and without the need to compete for labor in a market context." [17]

The common people labored under the twin burdens of the corvée (forced unpaid labor on behalf of the lord) and onerous tithes. They were taxed upon getting married, taxed for the birth of each child, and for every death in the family. They were taxed for planting a new tree in their yard, for keeping domestic or barnyard animals, for owning a flower pot, or putting a bell on an animal. There were taxes for religious festivals, for singing, dancing, drumming, and bell ringing. People were taxed for being sent to prison and upon being released. Even beggars were taxed. Those who could not find work were taxed for being unemployed, and if they traveled to another village in search of work, they paid a passage tax. When people could not pay, the monasteries lent them money at 20 to 50 percent interest. Some debts were handed down from father to son to grandson. Debtors who could not meet their obligations risked being placed into slavery for as long as the monastery demanded, sometimes for the rest of their lives. [18]

The theocracy's religious teachings buttressed its class order. The poor and afflicted were taught that they had brought their troubles upon themselves because of their foolish and wicked ways in previous lives. Hence they had to accept the misery of their present existence as an atonement and in anticipation that their lot would improve upon being reborn. The rich and powerful of course treated their good fortune as a reward for--and tangible evidence of-virtue in past and present lives.

Torture and Mutilation in Shanghri-La

In the Dalai Lama's Tibet, torture and mutilation---including eye gouging, the pulling out of tongues, hamstringing, and amputation of arms and legs--were favored punishments inflicted upon thieves, runaway serfs, and other "criminals." Journeying through Tibet in the 1960s, Stuart and Roma Gelder interviewed a former serf, Tsereh Wang Tuei, who had stolen two sheep belonging to a monastery. For this he had both his eyes gouged out and his hand mutilated beyond use. He explains that he no longer is a Buddhist: "When a holy lama told them to blind me I thought there was no good in religion." [19] Some Western visitors to Old Tibet remarked on the number of amputees to be seen. Since it was against Buddhist teachings to take human life, some offenders were severely lashed and then "left to God" in the freezing night to die. "The parallels between Tibet and medieval Europe are striking," concludes Tom Grunfeld in his book on Tibet. [20]

Some monasteries had their own private prisons, reports Anna Louise Strong. In 1959, she visited an exhibition of torture equipment that had been used by the Tibetan overlords. There were handcuffs of all sizes, including small ones for children, and instruments for cutting off noses and ears, and breaking off hands. For gouging out eyes, there was a special stone cap with two holes in it that was pressed down over the head so that the eyes bulged out through the holes and could be more readily torn out. There were instruments for slicing off kneecaps and heels, or hamstringing legs. There were hot brands, whips, and special implements for disembowling. [21]

The exhibition presented photographs and testimonies of victims who had been blinded or crippled or suffered amputations for thievery. There was the shepherd whose master owed him a reimbursement in yuan and wheat but refused to pay. So he took one of the master's cows; for this he had his hands severed. Another herdsman, who opposed having his wife taken from him by his lord, had his hands broken off. There were pictures of Communist activists with noses and upper lips cut off, and a woman who was raped and then had her nose sliced away. [22]

Theocratic despotism had been the rule for generations. An English visitor to Tibet in 1895, Dr. A. L. Waddell, wrote that the Tibetan people were under the "intolerable tyranny of monks" and the devil superstitions they had fashioned to terrorize the people. In 1904 Perceval Landon described the Dalai Lama's rule as "an engine of oppression" and "a barrier to all human improvement." At about that time, another English traveler, Captain W.F.T. O'Connor, observed that "the great landowners and the priests . . . exercise each in their own dominion a despotic power from which there is no appeal," while the people are "oppressed by the most monstrous growth of monasticism and priest-craft the world has ever seen." Tibetan rulers, like those of Europe during the Middle Ages, "forged innumerable weapons of servitude, invented degrading legends and stimulated a spirit of superstition" among the common people. [23]

In 1937, another visitor, Spencer Chapman, wrote, "The Lamaist monk does not spend his time in ministering to the people or educating them, nor do laymen take part in or even attend the monastery services. The beggar beside the road is nothing to the monk. Knowledge is the jealously guarded prerogative of the monasteries and is used to increase their influence and wealth." [24]

Occupation and Revolt

The Chinese Communists occupied Tibet in 1951, claiming suzerainty over that country. The 1951 treaty provided for ostensible self-government under the Dalai Lama's rule but gave China military control and exclusive right to conduct foreign relations. The Chinese were also granted a direct role in internal administration "to promote social reforms." At first, they moved slowly, relying mostly on persuasion in an attempt to effect change. Among the earliest reforms they wrought was to reduce usurious interest rates, and build some hospitals and roads.

Mao Zedung and his Communist cadres did not simply want to occupy Tibet. They desired the Dalai Lama's cooperation in transforming Tibet's feudal economy in accordance with socialist goals. Even Melvyn Goldstein, who is sympathetic to the Dalai Lama and the cause of Tibetan independence, allows that "contrary to popular belief in the West," the Chinese "pursued a policy of moderation." They took care to show respect for Tibetan culture and religion" and "allowed the old feudal and monastic systems to continue unchanged. Between 1951 and 1959, not only was no aristocratic or monastic property confiscated, but feudal lords were permitted to exercise continued judicial authority over their hereditarily bound peasants." [25] As late as 1957, Mao Zedung was trying to salvage his gradualist policy. He reduced the number of Chinese cadre and troops in Tibet and promised the Dalai Lama in writing that China would not implement land reforms in Tibet for the next six years or even longer if conditions were not yet ripe. [26]

Nevertheless, Chinese rule over Tibet greatly discomforted the lords and lamas. What bothered them most was not that the intruders were Chinese. They had seen Chinese come and go over the centuries and had enjoyed good relations with Generalissimo and his reactionary Kuomintang rule in China. [27] Indeed the approval of the Kuomintang government was needed to validate the choice of the present-day Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama. When the young Dalai Lama was installed in Lhasa, it was with an armed escort of Chiang Kaishek's troops and an attending Chinese minister, in accordance with centuries-old tradition. [28] What really bothered the Tibetan lords and lamas was that these latest Chinese were Communists. It would be only a matter of time, they were sure, before the Communists started imposing their egalitarian and collectivist solutions upon the highly privileged theocracy.

In 1956-57, armed Tibetan bands ambushed convoys of the Chinese Peoples Liberation Army (PLA). The uprising received extensive material support from the CIA, including arms, supplies, and military training for Tibetan commando units. It is a matter of public knowledge that the CIA set up support camps in Nepal, carried out numerous airlifts, and conducted guerrilla operations inside Tibet. [29] Meanwhile in the United States, the American Society for a Free Asia, a CIA front, energetically publicized the cause of Tibetan resistance. The Dalai Lama's eldest brother, Thubtan Norbu, played an active role in that group.

Many of the Tibetan commandos and agents whom the CIA dropped into the country were chiefs of aristocratic clans or the sons of chiefs. Ninety percent of them were never heard from again, according to a report from the CIA itself. [30] The small and thinly spread PLA garrisons in Tibet could not have captured them all. The PLA must have received support from Tibetans who did not sympathize with the uprising. This suggests that the resistance had a rather narrow base within Tibet. "Many lamas and lay members of the elite and much of the Tibetan army joined the uprising, but in the main the populace did not, assuring its failure," writes Hugh Deane. [31] In their book on Tibet, Ginsburg and Mathos reach a similar conclusion: "The Tibetan insurgents never succeeded in mustering into their ranks even a large fraction of the population at hand, to say nothing of a majority. As far as can be ascertained, the great bulk of the common people of Lhasa and of the adjoining countryside failed to join in the fighting against the Chinese both when it first began and as it progressed." [32] Eventually the resistance crumbled.

The Communists Overthrow Feudalism

Whatever wrongs and new oppressions introduced by the Chinese in Tibet after 1959, they did abolish slavery and the serfdom system of unpaid labor. They eliminated the many crushing taxes, started work projects, and greatly reduced unemployment and beggary. They built the only hospitals that exist in the country, and established secular education, thereby breaking the educational monopoly of the monasteries. They constructed running water and electrical systems in Lhasa. They also put an end to floggings, mutilations, and amputations as a form of criminal punishment. [33]

The Chinese also expropriated the landed estates and reorganized the peasants into hundreds of communes. Heinrich Harrer wrote a bestseller about his experiences in Tibet that was made into a popular Hollywood movie. (It was later revealed that Harrer had been a sergeant in Hitler's SS. [34]) He proudly reports that the Tibetans who resisted the Chinese and "who gallantly defended their independence . . . were predominantly nobles, semi-nobles and lamas; they were punished by being made to perform the lowliest tasks, such as laboring on roads and bridges. They were further humiliated by being made to clean up the city before the tourists arrived." They also had to live in a camp originally reserved for beggars and vagrants. [35]

By 1961, hundreds of thousands of acres formerly owned by the lords and lamas had been distributed to tenant farmers and landless peasants. In pastoral areas, herds that were once owned by nobility were turned over to collectives of poor shepherds. Improvements were made in the breeding of livestock, and new varieties of vegetables and new strains of wheat and barley were introduced, along with irrigation improvements, all of which led to an increase in agrarian production. [36]

Many peasants remained as religious as ever, giving alms to the clergy. But people were no longer compelled to pay tributes or make gifts to the monasteries and lords. The many monks who had been conscripted into the religious orders as children were now free to renounce the monastic life, and thousands did, especially the younger ones. The remaining clergy lived on modest government stipends, and extra income earned by officiating at prayer services, weddings, and funerals. [37]

The charges made by the Dalai Lama himself about Chinese mass sterilization and forced deportation of Tibetans have remained unsupported by any evidence. Both the Dalai Lama and his advisor and youngest brother, Tendzin Choegyal, claimed that "more than 1.2 million Tibetans are dead as a result of the Chinese occupation." [38] No matter how often stated, that figure is puzzling. The official 1953 census---six years before the Chinese crackdown---recorded the entire population of Tibet at 1,274,000. Other estimates varied from one to three million. [39] Other census counts put the ethnic Tibetan population within the country at about two million. If the Chinese killed 1.2 million in the early 1960s then whole cities and huge portions of the countryside, indeed almost all of Tibet, would have been depopulated, transformed into a killing field dotted with death camps and mass graves---of which we have seen no evidence. The Chinese military force in Tibet was not big enough to round up, hunt down, and exterminate that many people even if it had spent all its time doing nothing else.

Chinese authorities do admit to "mistakes" in the past, particularly during the 1966-76 Cultural Revolution when religious persecution reached a high tide in both China and Tibet. After the uprising in the late 1950s, thousands of Tibetans were incarcerated. During the Great Leap Forward, forced collectivization and grain farming was imposed on the peasantry, sometimes with disastrous effect. In the late 1970s, China began relaxing controls over Tibet "and tried to undo some of the damage wrought during the previous two decades." [40] In 1980, the Chinese government initiated reforms reportedly designed to grant Tibet a greater degree of self-rule and self-administration. Tibetans would now be allowed to cultivate private plots, sell their harvest surpluses, decide for themselves what crops to grow, and keep yaks and sheep. Communication with the outside world was again permitted, and frontier controls were eased to permit Tibetans to visit exiled relatives in India and Nepal. [41]

Elites, Émigrés, and CIA Money

For the Tibetan upper class lamas and lords, the Communist intervention was a calamity. Most of them fled abroad, as did the Dalai Lama himself, who was assisted in his flight by the CIA. Some discovered to their horror that they would have to work for a living. Those feudal elites who remained in Tibet and decided to cooperate with the new regime faced difficult adjustments. Consider the following:

In 1959, Anna Louise Strong visited the Central Institute of National Minorities in Beijing which trained various ethnic minorities for the civil service or prepared them for entrance into agricultural and medical schools. Of the 900 Tibetan students attending, most were runaway serfs and slaves. But about 100 were from privileged Tibetan families, sent by their parents so that they might win favorable posts in the new administration. The class divide between these two groups of students was all too evident. As the institute's director noted:

Those from noble families at first consider that in all ways they are superior. They resent having to carry their own suitcases, make their own beds, look after their own room. This, they think, is the task of slaves; they are insulted because we expect them to do this. Some never accept it but go home; others accept it at last. The serfs at first fear the others and cannot sit at ease in the same room. In the next stage they have less fear but still feel separate and cannot mix. Only after some time and considerable discussion do they reach the stage in which they mix easily as fellow students, criticizing and helping each other. [42]

The émigrés' plight won fulsome play in the West and substantial support from U.S. agencies dedicated to making the world safe for economic inequality. Throughout the 1960s the Tibetan exile community secretly pocketed $1.7 million a year from the CIA, according to documents released by the State Department in 1998. Once this fact was publicized, the Dalai Lama's organization itself issued a statement admitting that it had received millions of dollars from the CIA during the 1960s to send armed squads of exiles into Tibet to undermine the Maoist revolution. The Dalai Lama's annual share was $186,000, making him a paid agent of the CIA. Indian intelligence also financed him and other Tibetan exiles. [43] He has refused to say whether he or his brothers worked with the CIA. The agency has also declined to comment. [44]

While presenting himself as a defender of human rights, and having won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989, the Dalai Lama continued to associate with and be advised by aristocratic émigrés and other reactionaries during his exile. In 1995, the Raleigh, N.C. News & Observer carried a frontpage color photograph of the Dalai Lama being embraced by the reactionary Republican senator Jesse Helms, under the headline "Buddhist Captivates Hero of Religious Right." [45] In April 1999, along with Margaret Thatcher, Pope John Paul II, and the first George Bush, the Dalai Lama called upon the British government to release Augusto Pinochet, the former fascist dictator of Chile and a longtime CIA client who had been apprehended while visiting England. He urged that Pinochet be allowed to return to his homeland rather than be forced to go to Spain where he was wanted by a Spanish jurist to stand trial for crimes against humanity.

Today, mostly through the National Endowment for Democracy and other conduits that are more respectable-sounding than the CIA, the US Congress continues to allocate an annual $2 million to Tibetans in India, with additional millions for "democracy activities" within the Tibetan exile community. The Dalai Lama also gets money from financier George Soros, who now runs the CIA-created Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty and other institutes. [46]

The Question of Culture

We are told that when the Dalai Lama ruled Tibet, the people lived in contented symbiosis with their monastic and secular lords, in a social order sustained by a deeply spiritual, nonviolent culture. The peasantry's profound connection to the existing system of sacred belief supposedly gave them a tranquil stability, inspired by humane and pacific religious teachings. One is reminded of the idealized imagery of feudal Europe presented by latter-day conservative Catholics such as G. K. Chesterton and Hilaire Belloc. For them, medieval Christendom was a world of contented peasants living in deep spiritual bond with their Church, under the protection of their lords. [47] Again we are invited to accept a particular culture on its own terms, which means accepting it as presented by its favored class, by those at the top who profited most from it. The Shangri-La image of Tibet bears no more resemblance to historic reality than does the romanticized image of medieval Europe.

It might be said that we denizens of the modern secular world cannot grasp the equations of happiness and pain, contentment and custom, that characterize more "spiritual" and "traditional" societies. This may be true, and it may explain why some of us idealize such societies. But still, a gouged eye is a gouged eye; a flogging is a flogging; and the grinding exploitation of serfs and slaves is still a brutal class injustice whatever its cultural embellishments. There is a difference between a spiritual bond and human bondage, even when both exist side by side.

To be sure, there is much about the Chinese intervention that is to be deplored. In the 1990s, the Han, the largest ethnic group comprising over 95 percent of China's vast population, began moving in substantial numbers into Tibet and various western provinces. [48] These resettlements have had an effect on the indigenous cultures of western China and Tibet. On the streets of Lhasa and Shigatse, signs of Chinese preeminence are readily visible. Chinese run the factories and many of the shops and vending stalls. Tall office buildings and large shopping centers have been built with funds that might have been better spent on water treatment plants and housing.

Chinese cadres in Tibet too often adopted a supremacist attitude toward the indigenous population. Some viewed their Tibetan neighbors as backward and lazy, in need of economic development and "patriotic education." During the 1990s Tibetan government employees suspected of harboring nationalist sympathies were purged from office, and campaigns were launched to discredit the Dalai Lama. Individual Tibetans reportedly were subjected to arrest, imprisonment, and forced labor for attempting to flee the country, and for carrying out separatist activities and engaging in political "subversion." Some arrestees were held in administrative detention without adequate food, water, and blankets, subjected to threats, beatings, and other mistreatment. [49]

Chinese family planning regulations that allow a three-child limit for Tibetan families have been enforced irregularly and vary by district. If a couple goes over the limit, the excess children can be denied subsidized daycare, health care, housing, and education. Meanwhile, Tibetan history, culture, and religion are slighted in schools. Teaching materials, though translated into Tibetan, focus on Chinese history and culture. [50]

Still, the new order has its supporters. A 1999 story in the Washington Post notes that the Dalai Lama continues to be revered in Tibet, but

[F]ew Tibetans would welcome a return of the corrupt aristocratic clans that fled with him in 1959 and that comprise the bulk of his advisers. Many Tibetan farmers, for example, have no interest in surrendering the land they gained during China's land reform to the clans. Tibet's former slaves say they, too, don't want their former masters to return to power.

"I've already lived that life once before," said Wangchuk, a 67-year-old former slave who was wearing his best clothes for his yearly pilgrimage to Shigatse, one of the holiest sites of Tibetan Buddhism. He said he worshipped the Dalai Lama, but added, "I may not be free under Chinese communism, but I am better off than when I was a slave." [51]

To support the Chinese overthrow of the Dalai Lama's feudal theocracy is not to applaud everything about Chinese rule in Tibet. This point is seldom understood by today's Shangri-La adherents in the West.

The converse is also true. To denounce the Chinese occupation does not mean we have to romanticize the former feudal régime. One common complaint among Buddhist proselytes in the West is that Tibet's religious culture is being destroyed by the Chinese authorities. This does seem to be the case. But what I am questioning here is the supposedly admirable and pristinely spiritual nature of that pre-invasion culture. In short, we can advocate religious freedom and independence for Tibet without having to embrace the mythology of a Paradise Lost.

Finally, it should be noted that the criticism posed herein is not intended as a personal attack on the Dalai Lama. He appears to be a nice enough individual, who speaks often of peace, love, and nonviolence. In 1994, in an interview with Melvyn Goldstein, he went on record as having been since his youth in favor of building schools, "machines," and roads in his country. He claims that he thought the corvée and certain taxes imposed on the peasants "were extremely bad." And he disliked the way people were saddled with old debts sometimes passed down from generation to generation. [52] Furthermore, he reportedly has established "a government-in-exile" featuring a written constitution, a representative assembly, and other democratic essentials. [53]

Like many erstwhile rulers, the Dalai Lama sounds much better out of power than in power. Keep in mind that it took a Chinese occupation and almost forty years of exile for him to propose democracy for Tibet and to criticize the oppressive feudal autocracy of which he himself was the apotheosis. But his criticism of the old order comes far too late for ordinary Tibetans. Many of them want him back in their country, but it appears that relatively few want a return to the social order he represented.

In a book published in 1996, the Dalai Lama proffered a remarkable statement that must have sent shudders through the exile community. It reads in part as follows:

Of all the modern economic theories, the economic system of Marxism is founded on moral principles, while capitalism is concerned only with gain and profitability. Marxism is concerned with the distribution of wealth on an equal basis and the equitable utilization of the means of production. It is also concerned with the fate of the working classes-that is the majority---as well as with the fate of those who are underprivileged and in need, and Marxism cares about the victims of minority-imposed exploitation. For those reasons the system appeals to me, and it seems fair. . . .

The failure of the regime in the Soviet Union was, for me not the failure of Marxism but the failure of totalitarianism. For this reason I think of myself as half-Marxist, half-Buddhist. [54]

And more recently in 2001, while visiting California, he remarked that "Tibet, materially, is very, very backward. Spiritually it is quite rich. But spirituality can't fill our stomachs." [55] Here is a message that should be heeded by the affluent well-fed Buddhist proselytes in the West who cannot be bothered with material considerations as they romanticize feudal Tibet.

Buddhism and the Dalai Lama aside, what I have tried to challenge is the Tibet myth, the Paradise Lost image of a social order that was little more than a despotic retrograde theocracy of serfdom and poverty, so damaging to the human spirit, where vast wealth was accumulated by a favored few who lived high and mighty off the blood, sweat, and tears of the many. For most of the Tibetan aristocrats in exile, that is the world to which they fervently desire to return. It is a long way from Shangri-La.

Michael Parenti is a noted author and political commentator. Among his widely read books are The Terrorism Trap, Democracy For the Few, History as Mystery, and Against Empire. His latest book is The Assassination of Julius Caesar: A People's History of Ancient Rome (New Press, 2003). This article first appeared on Michael's website: www.michaelparenti.org
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  • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

    Tue, September 4, 2007 - 9:07 AM
    " Throughout the ages there has prevailed a distressing symbiosis between religion and violence. "

    This is a blatantly eurocentric lie. Christianity, along with it's evil twin Islam, are the only two religions that have a clear systemic problem with intolerance and violence. Europeans naturally assume that religions from Asia, Africa and the Americas must be inferior to their own religion - therefore if Christianity is inherently violent and intolerant all other religions must be, too.

    In Tibet the ancient Bon religion is still practiced. In fact, throughout the regions of Central Asia where "Tibetan" Buddhism has predominated for over a thousand years, the ancient Shamanic religious traditions are still largely intact. The biggest threat to the ancient religions of Tibet and the rest of Central Asia has been not Buddhism - but Maoism/Stalinism.

    Parenti's article makes note of incidents of violence among Buddhists. But Parenti's assertion doesn't follow from these examples. The fact is that Buddhists in Tibet and throughout the rest of Asia adhere to a degree of religious tolerance that is unimaginable to anyone only familiar with the history of Christianity in Europe.

    The Tibet myth is a rather clear cut case of what Edward Said rightly called "Orientalism". The antidote to Orientalism is not to replace one set of eurocentric biases with another - but rather to see the cultures and religions of Asia, Africa and the Americas as they really are.

    Anyone who still believes that the "feudalism" label is applicable to non-European cultures is promoting a blatantly racist world-view.
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

      Tue, September 4, 2007 - 9:26 AM
      "Anyone who still believes that the "feudalism" label is applicable to non-European cultures is promoting a blatantly racist world-view."

      So you think Mao was a Eurocentric racist?

      You think that condemning the feudal system, slavery, oppression of women, and torture under the Dalai Lama is somehow racist, but I think it is racist to say that these things can only be condemned if they are done by European feudalism.
      • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

        Tue, September 4, 2007 - 9:29 AM
        >> So you think Mao was a Eurocentric racist? <<

        Mao was a Stalinist. Stalin was a Eurocentric racist.
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

          Tue, September 4, 2007 - 9:38 AM
          "Mao was a Stalinist. Stalin was a Eurocentric racist."

          Despite Mao's problems, Mao liberated China from European control, abolished feudalism and capitalism, and advanced many aspects of Chinese life including women's rights, healthcare, education, and land reform. He was not a Eurocentric racist, he ended Eurocentric racist control of China.

          In addition, despite Stalin's problems, he lead the Soviet Union in smashing Hitler, the worst Eurocentric racist that has ever lived.
          • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

            Fri, September 7, 2007 - 10:01 PM
            "Despite Mao's problems, Mao liberated China from European control, abolished feudalism and capitalism, and advanced many aspects of Chinese life including women's rights, healthcare, education, and land reform. He was not a Eurocentric racist, he ended Eurocentric racist control of China....In addition, despite Stalin's problems, he lead the Soviet Union in smashing Hitler, the worst Eurocentric racist that has ever lived."

            Wow, defending Mao and Stalin, two guys responsible for the deaths of more of their nation's own people than anyone in history -60 million or so people between the two of them You never cease to amaze me Steven.

            Steven's comments are akin to "Despite Hitler's "problems", he did inspire his people and got his economy working again."

            Amazing
    • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

      Tue, September 4, 2007 - 6:09 PM
      <Anyone who still believes that the "feudalism" label is applicable to non-European cultures is promoting a blatantly racist world-view.>

      Why? Because non-European cultures aren't capable of developing their own brands of feudalism without the Europeans' help? Now that's a blatanly racist world-view.
  • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

    Tue, September 4, 2007 - 10:19 AM
    Parenti's always been a little too enamoured with Chinese-style communism and an apologist for Stalin
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

      Tue, September 4, 2007 - 10:26 AM
      "Parenti's always been a little too enamoured with Chinese-style communism and an apologist for Stalin"

      In this work Parenti has merely presented the facts:

      "Whatever wrongs and new oppressions introduced by the Chinese in Tibet after 1959, they did abolish slavery and the serfdom system of unpaid labor. They eliminated the many crushing taxes, started work projects, and greatly reduced unemployment and beggary. They built the only hospitals that exist in the country, and established secular education, thereby breaking the educational monopoly of the monasteries. They constructed running water and electrical systems in Lhasa. They also put an end to floggings, mutilations, and amputations as a form of criminal punishment."
      • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

        Tue, September 4, 2007 - 10:36 AM
        Great, but the Dali Lama never suggested Tibet return to its feudal past.

        Parenti's an apologist for Stalin's crimes. He thinks historians have maligned Stalin unfairly. Yeah right.
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

          Tue, September 4, 2007 - 10:40 AM
          "Great, but the Dali Lama never suggested Tibet return to its feudal past."

          Really? You don't think this was what he was fighting for in their contra war after being removed from power? Has he evaluated his past wrongs? And please tell us then what system he now advocates.
          • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

            Tue, September 4, 2007 - 10:47 AM
            Oh, that little CIA support was a joke. They figured they could supply a few rag tag folks with some out dated weaponry mainly because the US was so anti-communist at the time. The CIA used them and abandoned them just as quickly. Comparing this to what they were doing in Nicauragua is disingenuous at best.

            www.friendsoftibet.org/databa...d7.html


            Now that China is a one party capitalist state, the US doesn't care.
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

              Tue, September 4, 2007 - 6:04 PM
              "Now that China is a one party capitalist state, the US doesn't care."

              Why are they still funding the Dalai Lama then?
              • Unsu...
                 

                Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                Tue, September 4, 2007 - 6:32 PM
                Brent, you still haven't answered my questions:

                When you said, "Great, but the Dali Lama never suggested Tibet return to its feudal past."

                I responded:

                Really? You don't think this was what he was fighting for in their contra war after being removed from power? Has he evaluated his past wrongs? And please tell us then what system he now advocates.
                • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                  Wed, September 5, 2007 - 8:22 AM
                  <<Really? You don't think this was what he was fighting for in their contra war after being removed from power? Has he evaluated his past wrongs? And please tell us then what system he now advocates. >>


                  Ah, he was what 17 at the time? Besides if I have to do your research on the Dali Lama's vision for a new Tibet you obviously haven't read anything. Ever heard of the Zone of Peace? No?

                  Besides your communist propaganda is awfully crude. If you call the Soviet Union a good model than you are sadly delusional.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                    Wed, September 5, 2007 - 9:09 AM
                    "If you call the Soviet Union a good model than you are sadly delusional."

                    When did I call the Soviet Union a good model? Never. On specific issues there are aspects of Soviet policy I m9ight call a good model, but I've never called the Soviet system itself a good model. Never.
              • Unsu...
                 

                Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                Wed, September 5, 2007 - 4:37 AM
                CIA support for the Dalai Lama contra war is no joke.

                From:

                CIA ran Tibet contras since 1959
                By Gary Wilson
                www.workers.org/archives/1...atibet.html

                Here is some useful information they printed on the contra war:

                Up until the time when his rule was overthrown, the Tibetan region of China was dominated by a feudal oligarchy. While most of the population lived in extreme poverty, the Dalai Lama lived richly in the 1,000-room, 14-story Potala Palace.

                In 1950, the Chinese People's Liberation Army entered Tibet. They secured the borders and controlled foreign affairs. The Dalai Lama continued to live in his palace. But in 1959, the Dalai Lama led a bloody uprising against the Chinese government.

                After the uprising failed, the Tribune reports, the Dalai Lama went into exile in India where the CIA set up and trained the Tibetan contra army.

                The Tribune writes that "Air Force pilots working with the CIA" asked potential recruits one question: Do you want to kill Chinese?

                These recruits were trained at U.S. military bases in Okinawa, Guam and Colorado. They were then dropped into the Tibetan region of China by "American pilots who would later carry out [secret] operations in Laos and Cambodia during the Vietnam War," the Tribune reports.

                "By the mid-1960s, the CIA had switched its strategy from parachuting commandos into Tibet to setting up the Chusi Gangdruk, a grizzled army of 2,000 ethnic Khamba fighters, at secret bases across the border in pro-U.S. Nepal," the Tribune reports.

                The Tribune report adds: "`For years, the only way Tibetans could get a hearing in the world's capitals was to emphasize our spirituality and helplessness,' said Jamyang Norbu, a leading Tibetan intellectual who joined the guerrillas briefly as a teenager. `Tibetans who pick up rifles don't fit that romantic image we've built up in Westerners' heads.'"

                The Dalai Lama has always refused to answer any questions about his ties to the CIA, the Tribune writes, even though much of the contra operation in India was coordinated by "his elder brother, a businessman named Gyalo Thondup."

                The Tribune report claims that U.S. government support for the Dalai Lama's contra operations ended in the 1970s. But those familiar with U.S. covert operations around the world don't buy it.

                Ex-CIA employee Ralph McGehee, who authored many expos‚s of the CIA, says that the CIA is a prime mover behind the new 1990s campaign promoting the cause of the Dalai Lama and Tibetan independence. And a key player in the new operation is none other than the Dalai Lama's eldest brother.

                Already, three bombs are known to have been detonated in Tibet this year. The most recent was on Dec. 25 outside a Chinese government office in the Tibetan capital of Lhasa.

                Ever since the victory of the socialist revolution in Russia in 1917, the capitalist powers have glorified tyrants thrown over by workers. To the Western press, the Russian czar, a brutal and cruel dictator, became a near poet-king.

                The prevalence of anti-communism as a near religion in the United States has made it easy to sell slave masters as humanitarians. The Dalai Lama is not much different from the former slave owners of the Confederate South.

                He was an owner of slaves until 1959. He ruled over a harsh feudal serfdom.
          • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

            Tue, September 4, 2007 - 5:50 PM
            Steven, what I said in Political Junkies, about the possibility of me joining your revolution when the time comes if it's a good enough revolution, I SO take that back. In that tribe you just sounded kind of silly, like Rik from The Young Ones, but now you sound more like an actual lunatic. I'll be hitching my wagon to a different train.
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

              Tue, September 4, 2007 - 6:15 PM
              "you sound more like an actual lunatic"

              A lunatic for saying a guy that kept slaves, fought a war with CIA aid, kept the vast majority in poverty, and lived in a 1,000 room palace before he was overthrown, is a bad guy that does not deserve power nor to be seen as "enlightened".

              "I'll be hitching my wagon to a different train."

              Yes, you've already said that you support pro-war, anti-gay marriage, pro--"Patriot Act" Barrack Obama. I, in contrast, am working for justice.
              • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                Tue, September 4, 2007 - 6:25 PM
                Actually, that wasn't the train I was speaking of (regardless of how inaccurately you described it). If the revolution comes, I've known all along whose train I'll be hitching my wagon to.

                But, yes, in the meantime, I'm on the Obama train! YEEEEEEE HAWWWWW! :)
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                  Tue, September 4, 2007 - 6:29 PM
                  "Actually, that wasn't the train I was speaking of (regardless of how inaccurately you described it)."

                  Do you deny that Obama is pro-war, anti-gay marriage, and pro--"Patriot Act"?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                    Tue, September 4, 2007 - 6:38 PM
                    Obama is not "pro-war." I admit I don't understand why he voted for the Patriot Act renewal. I haven't really seen any information on that, but then again I haven't really dug for it either. However I'm certain it wasn't because he wants to see our civil liberties removed. And you already know my opinion on his gay marriage position from Political Junkies. I have no intention on getting into that discussion with you again.

                    But I'll end this like I ended discussions with you in Political Junkies: Obama 2008!! :)
                    • Unsu...
                       

                      Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                      Tue, September 4, 2007 - 7:00 PM
                      Enrika claims, "Obama is not 'pro-war.'"

                      Barrack Obama has voted for war appropriations. Votes for war appropriations = votes for war.

                      Barrack Obama has advocated invading Pakistan. Invading Pakistan = war.

                      Likewise Barack Obama also backs racist Israel stating he will, “insist on fully funding military assistance to Israel”. Military assistance to Israel = assistance for war.

                      In his book, Barack Obama makes clear his support for the billions being squandered on lining the pockets of the military contractors stating, “given the depletion of our [military] forces after the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, we will probably need a somewhat higher [Pentagon] budget in the immediate future just to restore readiness and replace equipment.” (Barack Obama, The Audacity of Hope, p 307). Calling for more money to America's bloated imperialist military = money for war.

                      Beyond wishful thinking, Obama is pro-war.

                      Enrika says, "I admit I don't understand why he voted for the Patriot Act renewal. I haven't really seen any information on that, but then again I haven't really dug for it either. However I'm certain it wasn't because he wants to see our civil liberties removed."

                      So you think he voted to take away our rights, but he didn't want to take away our rights. Okey Dokey. Sure… just ignore the facts and create your own reality!
                      • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                        Tue, September 4, 2007 - 7:08 PM
                        You know, I honestly think you're completely incapable of spouting anything other than rhetoric and propaganda. It's to the point now that your rants are starting to sound like an adult voice in a Peanuts cartoon... <wonh wonh, wonh wonh wonh>
                        • Unsu...
                           

                          Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                          Tue, September 4, 2007 - 7:17 PM
                          "your rants are starting to sound like an adult voice in a Peanuts cartoon... <wonh wonh, wonh wonh wonh>"

                          Now I understand how you protect your illusions, you have a filter in your ears that muffles the facts that prove your understanding of reality wrong.

                          Sorry, you're right, Obama voted for the renewel of the "Patriot Act" to defend our constitution and war is peace.
                          • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                            Tue, September 4, 2007 - 7:22 PM
                            *laughing*

                            I always wondered why my landlord sounded like that. :)

                            Obama 2008!! :)
                            • Unsu...
                               

                              Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                              Wed, September 5, 2007 - 4:44 AM
                              "I always wondered why my landlord sounded like that."

                              Understandable. But you can also be glad that your landlord isn't a feudal pre-revolutionary Tibetan overlord demanding harder free labor.

                              Sometimes in the United States, with most of our income going to the landlord, it can also feel like feudalism. In revolutionary Cuba it is illegal to charge a tenant any more than 10% of their income.
                              • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                                Wed, September 5, 2007 - 5:26 AM
                                "In revolutionary Cuba it is illegal to charge a tenant any more than 10% of their income."

                                it is also illegal to think for yourself, but hey, cheap rent is a good door prize...
                                • Unsu...
                                   

                                  Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                                  Wed, September 5, 2007 - 8:08 AM
                                  "it is also illegal to think for yourself, but hey, cheap rent is a good door prize..."

                                  Thinking for yourself obviously is not truly restricted.

                                  The main restrictions are on writers working full time for the CIA. I agree with these restrictions. There are also abuses that I don't agree with. These abuses are tied to the Cuban Communist Party's Leninist concept of one party rule. In contrast, I advocate the Rosa Luxemburg's revolutionary socialist ideas of workers democracy.

                                  Yet there are two key points on Cuba that should not be overlooked:

                                  1. Under the U.S. imperialist Batista government, before the Cuban revolution, the Cuban people suffered mass murder, starvation, lack of healthcare, lack of education, and imperialist exploitation. These problems have been solved by the 1959 Cuban revolution.

                                  2. The Cuban socialist economy works much better than capitalism did in meeting the needs of the Cuban people.

                                  From this we can see:

                                  1. That U.S. intervention in Cuba has no humanitarian purpose. Instead, this intervention has always been meant to help U.S. corporate interests such as Rockefeller’s United Fruit Company.

                                  2. That socialist economies do work. In this we model we can look at what doesn't work so well, the one party Leninist model, and use the positive and negative examples to the benefit of future socialist revolutions.
                                  • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                                    Wed, September 5, 2007 - 8:31 AM
                                    <<The main restrictions are on writers working full time for the CIA. I agree with these restrictions. >>


                                    yeah, and Castro simply calls any dissenters CIA operatives, rendering this moot.
                                    • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                                      Wed, September 5, 2007 - 8:49 AM
                                      >>Ever heard of the Zone of Peace?

                                      no. i looked it up and what i got ( zopif.org/ )didn't answer the questions i had after reading this thread.

                                      truthfully, i agree with enrika about stephen...we should set him and prometheus up on a date and chip in for tickets to the twilight zone. but the points he made, about the tibetans being feudal slave lords...and such...was rather disturbing. maybe there were some benefits to the little people from the chinese takeover. what is the dalai lama's view of a new china-free tibet?
                                      • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                                        Wed, September 5, 2007 - 9:19 AM
                                        • Unsu...
                                           

                                          Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                                          Wed, September 5, 2007 - 11:55 AM
                                          "Even prior to my departure from Tibet in March, 1959, I had come to the conclusion that in the changing circumstances of the modern world the system of governance in Tibet must be so modified and amended as to allow the elected representatives of the people to play a more effective role in guiding and shaping the social and economic policies of the State. I also firmly believed that this could only be done through democratic institutions based on social and economic justice." The Dalai Lama

                                          So apparently the tyrant now claims that if his system's horrendous policies hadn't gotten him overthrown he would have instituted democracy, freed the slaves, and abolished feudalism.
                                          • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                                            Wed, September 5, 2007 - 12:26 PM
                                            <<So apparently the tyrant now claims that if his system's horrendous policies hadn't gotten him overthrown he would have instituted democracy, freed the slaves, and abolished feudalism. >>


                                            The tyrant? LMAO! He did win a Nobel Prize but hey, nothing to get in the way of some good Maoist agitprop
                                        • Re: Looking Forward: The Tibetan Future

                                          Thu, September 6, 2007 - 2:45 AM
                                          hmm. thanks for the links, brent. look, steven, i see some of the points you've raised here as valid (i guess dragon's right, we can always find something factual even within something we disagree with vehemently) - perhaps tibet the way it was wasn't the utopia for all the world to use as a model. but i see the point also that the tibetans chose the dalai lama, he didn't force himself on them, and he grew up in that world so it was natural to him, then he was deposed at a very young age.

                                          perhaps it is fair to say that *bc* china occupied tibet (and i am *not* justifying the occupation - merely saying that good can come out of bad - or from actions that aren't justified) the dalai lama had the opportunity to travel, see the world and contemplate how buddhism would be implemented governmentally. thus reaching the conclusions that led him to draft the tibetan constitution. which brent linked to and i ask that you read it before responding further: www.servat.unibe.ch/law/icl/...000_.html

                                          however it is that he arrived at these epiphanies, the dalai lama seems to be a very different person today than he was when he led tibet's government. i believe he would implement this constitution and i don't think anyone really doubts that.

                                          now what's this about the dalai lama asking china to transfer administrative power only to him on the down-low?
                                      • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                                        Wed, September 5, 2007 - 11:53 AM
                                        >> but the points he made, about the tibetans being feudal slave lords...and such...was rather disturbing. <<

                                        They really shouldn't be. People who are oppressed are not necessarily angels. Many Native American groups, for example, have aspects of their culture that I am not crazy about - to put it very milldly. But you can't justify cultural genocide against people X because they have an "oppressive" society.

                                        This is ALWAYS the argument that is made whenever any group of people is conquered. "Best thing ever happened to 'em." It's BULLSHIT. The PRC is arguably one of the most oppressive societies in the history of oppression - they couldn't "liberate" jack shit. You gotta liberate yourself first.

                                        Tibetans should take care of Tibet. Anyone who wants to study Tibetan history and culture seriously will find plenty that ain't pretty - but the same is true if you start taking a close look at the Apaches. It's like the song says: "which side are you on?":
                                        www.youtube.com/watch
                                        • Unsu...
                                           

                                          Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                                          Wed, September 5, 2007 - 7:30 PM
                                          Cornelius claims, "The PRC is arguably one of the most oppressive societies in the history of oppression - they couldn't "liberate" jack shit. You gotta liberate yourself first."

                                          Real human rights relates to the totality of human existence, not simply to a far narrower political sphere. The 1949 Chinese revolution made tremendous advances in women's rights, against slavery and serfdom, for education, and for healthcare.

                                          While one party rule is oppressive, so was the murderous U.S. backed Chiang Kai-Chek government before it. But on the level of other human rights, like the right to live and be educated, there have been vast improvements.

                                          Consider, for example India and China. Economically comparable countries that have suffered under a history of western colonial rule. Life expectancy, one of the best indexes summarizing quality of life, is 73 years in China and 65 years in India – a measure by itself indicating in which country human rights are greater. In China literacy is 91 per cent, in India it is 61 per cent - the majority of women in India are illiterate. Evidently both quality of life and democracy are desirable, but who has the greater human rights? A person in India who has the right to vote but dies eight years younger and cannot read or someone in China who has no vote but lives eight years longer and can read and write? Noting that reducing Chinese standards in these fields to those of India, in proportion to the population, would mean eliminating 98 million people and rendering 270 million adults illiterate gives you an instant answer.

                                          Or take a Cuban woman. Does she have greater human rights in Cuba today - where life expectancy is now 77, only one year less than the United States - or at that time when hundreds of thousands of women were forced by poverty under the previous regime into prostitution (and we may be certain from the experience of Eastern Europe after 1989, where many millions of women were again forced into prostitution by poverty, that this mass fate would certainly occur again in Cuba if any regime supported by the US were reinstated)?

                                          The reasons hundreds of millions of people in the world support Cuba, or China, is not because they welcome lack of democratic rights, nor because it is necessary to make, for example, ridiculous assertions that political democracy exists in China, but because in the real world for billions of people the ability to eat, the ability to live longer (one of the most basic of all human rights!), the ability to read and write, the ability to have a health service, are more important in their real life than the right to vote periodically.

                                          This naturally does not mean that democracy and other human rights are counterpoised principles, political democracy is simply narrower than all human rights. Each person wishes to shape all aspects of their life to the maximum in both an individual and a social fashion – which requires a democratic political system. Absence of democracy itself produces many social distortions. The best situation is where social progress and democracy are able to march hand in hand. Political democracy is not a purely ‘Western value’ but a universal human one. But it is to assert unequivocally that in the real world a Chinese woman who lives almost a decade longer, who is literate, and has a health service, has greater human rights than an Indian woman who is illiterate, has no adequate health service and dies almost a decade earlier.

                                          While I advocate socialism that is democratic, to ignore the gains that have been made by the Chinese and Cuban revolutions would be to give in to the worst anti-communist prejudices produced in the corporate media of this society, produced to defend U.S. imperialist interests in the world and "justify" U.S. wars of aggression. I will not do that.

                                          The poor peasants of Tibet rose up and overthrew the Dalai Lama during Chinese occupation. The CIA and misguided American anti-communists have no right to re-impose that feudal leadership on the people of Tibet. The Tibetan people made obvious gains, including abolishing chattel slavery, an end to feudalism, advances in women's rights, and advances in healthcare and education. While there are problems with the rule of the Chinese Communist Party, the way forward is not to go backward to the leadership that the Tibetan people have already rightly rejected.

                                          For Self-Determination and Democratic Socialism! Political Revolution against the Chinese Communist Party! U.S. Out of Tibet!

                                          Liberation News
                                          lists.riseup.net/www/info/...ation_news
                                  • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                                    Fri, September 7, 2007 - 10:14 PM
                                    "The Cuban socialist economy works much better than capitalism did in meeting the needs of the Cuban people. "

                                    The Cuban economy was growing prior to Castro's revolution, and then became stagnant for decades after, but only because their economy was propped up by the Soviet Union buying sugar exports from Cuba an an exaggerated price and selling the oil at a cut rate price. Since Soviet support ended, Cuba's economy has pretty much been a basket case.
                                    • Unsu...
                                       

                                      Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                                      Fri, September 7, 2007 - 10:50 PM
                                      "The Cuban economy was growing prior to Castro's revolution, and then became stagnant for decades after, but only because their economy was propped up by the Soviet Union buying sugar exports from Cuba an exaggerated price and selling the oil at a cut rate price. Since Soviet support ended, Cuba's economy has pretty much been a basket case."

                                      The Soviet Union, unlike U.S. capitalism that under pays for goods from the third world, bought Cuban sugar at a fair price. This helped Cuba build an economy where education, healthcare, and adequate nutrition are provided to all, in a country where starvation, illiteracy, and lack of healthcare was the norm before the revolution. Today, the Cuban lifespan is only one year less than in the United States.
                                      • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                                        Fri, September 7, 2007 - 11:40 PM
                                        <<Today, the Cuban lifespan is only one year less than in the United States.>>



                                        Today, free thought is only a lifetime in Castro's prisons.
                                        • Unsu...
                                           

                                          Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                                          Wed, September 12, 2007 - 9:12 PM
                                          Today there are over two million Americans in prison. By midyear 2002, America's jails held 1 in every 142 U.S. residents. Much higher than Cuba’s per-capita incarceration.

                                          This is very costly for tax payers, but very profitable for owners of privatized prisons and owners of corporations taking advantage of the slave labor.

                                          Many are innocent, ground up like hamburger in a racist classist criminal injustice system.

                                          Many others are innocent political prisoners of conscience, such as Leonard Peltier and Mumia Abu-Jamal.

                                          Cuba, on the other hand, has been a haven for one very important American prisoner of conscience, Assata Shakur:

                                          In fear of the Black socialist program of the Black Panther Party the U.S. government targeted the organization for extermination in the late 1960s and early 1970s. This political repression was organized by the FBI and carried out with the help of local law enforcement and the corporate media.

                                          While the corporate media portrayed the Black Panthers as violent, police forces were under orders to shoot Black Panther Party leaders without provocation. 39 members of the Black Panther Party were murdered. Those who survived attempted murder by the police were subsequently framed up as the aggressors. Others were framed-up for crimes they simply were not even near including recently exonerated Geronimo ji Jaga (formerly Pratt), who did decades of hard prison time for a murder U.S. courts now even recognize he did not commit.

                                          Assata Shakur was also a target of this political repression and was taken as a political prisoner by the U.S. government. It was with the help of the revolutionary direct action of her comrades that Assata Shakur was liberated from bondage and gained her freedom in exile in revolutionary Cuba. Today, despite pressure from the United States, Cuba remains committed to Assata Shakur's freedom.

                                          Liberation News also supports Assata Shakur and demands that the U.S. government keep their blood stained hands off of her and off of the Cuban Revolution, while demanding Assata Shakur's right to return from exile without a continuation of political persecution.

                                          The following article on this situation is from the August / September Freedom Socialist Newspaper, which can be found at: socialism.com/index.html

                                          For Liberation News, Steven Argue


                                          ************
                                          The million-dollar woman
                                          Cuba refuses to hand over exiled former Panther Assata Shakur


                                          by Merle Woo

                                          On May 2, the U.S. added exiled African American freedom fighter Assata Shakur to the FBI's domestic terrorist list, while New Jersey raised the $150,000 bounty on her head to $1 million. Federal Attorney General Alberto Gonles gave his personal approval for the money to come from the Department of Justice.

                                          Shakur is the victim of a racist political frame-up in which she and Sundiata Acoli were convicted of murdering their colleague Zayd Malik Shakur and a state trooper, Werner Foerster, during a shootout after the three Black Liberation Army members were pulled over on the New Jersey Turnpike in 1973. In 1979, she escaped from prison with the help of the BLA and supporters, Black and white, gay and straight, and in 1984 was received by courageous Cuba as a political refugee.

                                          Not a terrorist but a target. The Bush administration is retaliating against Shakur because she is one who got away. Painted with a government bull's-eye from the time she was part of the Black Panther Party (BPP), her escape meant she could live to write her inspiring autobiography, Assata, which describes her beliefs and her harrowing torture during incarceration.

                                          Between 1971 and 1973, Shakur was variously charged with murder, kidnapping, and robbery. Each of those charges ended in dismissal, acquittal, or a hung jury until she was convicted by an all-white jury of murdering Zayd Shakur and the patrolman. The verdict came despite evidence proving that she could not have killed Foerster and the admission of trooper James Harper that he killed Zayd Shakur.

                                          Assata hated violence, although she believed that revolution was necessary. And she loved Zayd, her comrade, because he respected women and refused to be part of "that macho cult that was an official body in the BPP," as she writes in Assata.

                                          The government is hellbent on capturing her in the same way that escaped slaves were brought back to the plantation to be publicly tortured as an example.

                                          After the government branded Assata a terrorist, death-row political prisoner Mumia Abu-Jamal, also framed for killing a cop, said of her: "To label this woman a terrorist is to bleed all meaning from the word. For, during her life as an activist, during her wounding and her arrest, and during her travails as an accused in courtrooms that were more lynching posts than halls of justice, she was terrorized by a system that wanted to punish her for daring to rebel."

                                          Cuban President Fidel Castro was also adamant in her defense. "They wanted to portray her as a terrorist, something that was an injustice, a brutality, an infamous lie," he said on May 10. Instead, Castro said, Shakur is a victim of "the fierce repression against the Black movement in the United States" and had been "a true political prisoner."

                                          Castro suggested that the new moves against Assata are an attempt to distract attention from Washington's refusal to honor its extradition treaty with Venezuela and give up real terrorist Luis Posada. Among other acts of mass murder and assassination, Posada is wanted for the 1976 bombing of a civilian Cuban jetliner that killed all 73 people on board. (See article on page four.)

                                          "Assata Shakur is welcome here."On May 26, Councilman Charles Barron called a press conference in New York to unite and take action to condemn the bounty. Recently freed lesbian political prisoner Laura Whitehorn and several rappers, including Mos Def and Talib Kweli, were among hundreds who turned out to support Assata, who was Tupac Shakur's godmother.

                                          The National Conference of Black Lawyers, meanwhile, demanded "that the U.S. government immediately withdraw the bounty offer, and permanently cease its pursuit of Assata Shakur as such is both illegal and unjustifiable under international human rights laws" (www.blackcommentator.com/140/140...s.html).

                                          Mos Def says that growing up he remembers seeing "Assata Shakur Is Welcome Here" posters in Brooklyn neighborhoods (www.allhiphop.com/features/ She became to him and many other young people a "hero of epic proportions." On the 1997 Feminist Brigade to Cuba initiated by Radical Women, brigade including this writer met with Assata and found her eager to learn about the activism of just such young people.

                                          Among Shakur's important political contributions is the way she unifies the movements by criticizing what divides them notably racism and sexism, still prevalent among activists as they are elsewhere. In Assata, she writes: "To me, the revolutionary struggle of Black people had to be against racism, capitalism, imperialism, and sexism and for real freedom under a socialist government."

                                          The Patriot Act: return of COINTELPRO.FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover once said that the Black Panthers were the "greatest internal threat to the security of the U.S." One of his chief tools in combating this purported threat was COINTEL a notorious spying and disruption operation used to "neutralize" Black activist groups and individuals.

                                          COINTELPRO, which originated as an anti-communist program, eventually swept up most of the 1960s-era movements in its dragnet. The dirty tactics it employed, many of them found to be unconstitutional by Congress and the courts, are now finding a home in the Patriot Act, which gives the green light to previously illegal practices.

                                          Again today, the U.S. government is attempting to build a cement wall against the spread of subversive ideas. But like weeds cracking through the pavement, those ideas will not be kept out. The new generation raising its voices in sympathy with Assata Shakur is testament to that.

                                          Merle Woo, a lecturer in Women Studies and Asian American Studies, taught the book Assata for several years. She can be contacted at woogok @ aol.com.

                                          For what you can do to support Shakur,visit Hands Off Assata at www.afrocubaweb.com/hoa.htm or write HOA/Global Exchange, P.O. Box 438731, Chicago, IL 60643.


                                          Liberation News:

                                          lists.riseup.net/www/info/...ation_news


                                          Freedom Socialist Newspaper:

                                          socialism.com/index.html
  • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

    Wed, September 5, 2007 - 1:33 PM
    This was a fascinating article, Steven. While I am no expert on Tibetan history, it seems more true to life that something like this was taking place in that area.
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

      Fri, September 7, 2007 - 10:50 PM
      "This was a fascinating article, Steven. While I am no expert on Tibetan history, it seems more true to life that something like this was taking place in that area."

      Thanks Britt, I'm happy to see someone found it useful.
  • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

    Wed, September 5, 2007 - 2:08 PM
    I can understand why some on the left might balk at the article and it's conclusions. However the reason they balk so is I think rooted more in 1960's hippy romanticism of Tibet.

    The left has a way of hanging on to things long after the time to reject them has expired.
    • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

      Wed, September 5, 2007 - 7:47 PM
      >>The left has a way of hanging on to things long after the time to reject them has expired.

      Which of these is someone still there after the time to reject him has expired?

      www.whitehouse.gov/news/rel...515h.html
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

        Wed, September 5, 2007 - 7:51 PM
        Dalai Lama: Bush's 'man of peace'

        uspolitics.tribe.net/thread/...3e5b0711
        • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

          Wed, September 5, 2007 - 9:12 PM
          As most bias articles, Stevens article does contain truth. It is true enough that the Nazis' admired and emulated tibetain way of life. So there had to have been some brutality going on. Perhaps the Dali Lama has a shady past. However Steven, what kind of government the Tibetans want to choose is none of our business. Once they are free of China they can choose for themselves. The arguement for the "Good" that China has done in Tibet is questionable. Like the US,Britain (or Rome for that matter), whatever china did in Tibet it did for itself, not for the the people of Tibet. Most of the good the chinese did in Tibet was accidental and just fell in line with China's plans. Part of the mission in Tibet is to totally destroy Tibetan culture.The chinese are very intense about their desire for one people throughout china so they are working hard to erase every part of of Tibetan governmental and religous practises. This of course includes bad things like fuedal practices. However, if you were to go to tibet today you would find very little left of the culture the Dali Lama talks about. In fact its sometimes hard to find Tibetan people as they are being overrun by Chinese laborers that almost always are given the best jobs in the region. I garantee that if you were to interview people who were there when the Chinese took over they would tell you about the brutality,rape,torture and murder that happen then. The Chinese are no socialists wet dream!

          Steven,
          Your comparison of India and China is unfair. Most of the problems that plague india are due to over population. The reason China doesnt have this problem are because of its wildly successful breeding programs. A limit was set on how many children parents could have.Any over and the parents were forced to abort the fetus and in many cases both were sterilized to make sure it didnt happen again. Since women are considered a burden in china(go womens rights!) most parents decided to only keep sons and abort daughters. Now the male to female ratio is about 3 men to one women.

          "Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite."
          John Kenneth Galbraith
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

            Wed, September 5, 2007 - 9:37 PM
            "However Steven, what kind of government the Tibetans want to choose is none of our business."

            The CIA and new age anti-communist Americans are saying otherwise by backing the Dalai Lama.
            • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

              Wed, September 5, 2007 - 9:41 PM
              The CIA isn't backing the Dali Lama.

              yeah, in their Cold war anti-communist hysteria of the 1950's they supported a few rag tag Tibetans, which fizzled anyways. Once the US opened relations with China, the support evaporated.
              • Unsu...
                 

                Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                Wed, September 5, 2007 - 10:07 PM
                The Dalai Lama has a long history of lying about his CIA involvement:

                "The right-wing nature of the Dalai Lama and the government-in-exile was further exposed by its relationship with the US CIA. The Dalai Lama concealed the CIA's role in the 1959 uprising until 1975.

                "Between 1956 and 1972 the CIA armed and trained Tibetan guerillas. The Dalai Lama's brothers acted as intermediaries. Before the 1959 uprising, the CIA parachuted arms and trained guerillas into eastern Tibet. The Dalai Lama maintained radio contact with the CIA during his 1959 escape to India."

                From: The Dalai Lama's hidden past
                www.greenleft.org.au/1996/248/13397


            • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

              Wed, September 5, 2007 - 9:56 PM
              Who cares who they support? He is a spiritual leader not a freedom fighter.Whats he going to do?Even with CIA supportt? Its a moot point... Do you support hamas as the democratically elected government of Palastine? Theyve done much worst then the Dali Lama and the people still elected them!
              • Unsu...
                 

                Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                Wed, September 5, 2007 - 10:20 PM
                Dragon asks, "Who cares who they support? He is a spiritual leader not a freedom fighter."

                He is the leader of the Tibetan government in exile. All assembly decisions must be approved by the Dalai Lama, whose sole claim to the status of head of state is that he has been selected by the gods.

                Dragon asks, "Whats he going to do? Even with CIA supportt?"

                His goal is to re-gain power over Tibet. Here seems to be the avenue he sees for doing it:

                "Without consultation with the Tibetan people, the Dalai Lama openly abandoned his movement's demand for independence in 1987. This shift was first communicated to Beijing secretly in 1984. The Dalai Lama's proposals now amount to calling for negotiations with Beijing to allow him and his exiled government to resume administrative power in an ``autonomous'', albeit larger, Tibet. The Dalai Lama's call for international pressure on Beijing seeks only to achieve this."

                From:
                The Dalai Lama's hidden past
                by Norm Dixon
                www.greenleft.org.au/1996/248/13397
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

    Thu, September 6, 2007 - 8:32 AM
    I just realized I forget to post Parenti's references:

    1. Melvyn C. Goldstein, The Snow Lion and the Dragon: China, Tibet, and the Dalai Lama (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1995), 6-16. (back)

    2. Mark Juergensmeyer, Terror in the Mind of God, (Berkeley: University of California Press, 2000), 113. (back)

    3. Kyong-Hwa Seok, "Korean monk gangs battle for temple turf," San Francisco Examiner, December 3, 1998. (back)

    4. Gere quoted in "Our Little Secret," CounterPunch, 1-15 November 1997. (back)

    5. Dalai Lama quoted in Donald Lopez Jr., Prisoners of Shangri-La: Tibetan Buddhism and the West (Chicago and London: Chicago University Press, 1998), 205. (back)

    6. Stuart Gelder and Roma Gelder, The Timely Rain: Travels in New Tibet (New York: Monthly Review Press, 1964), 119. (back)

    7. Gelder and Gelder, The Timely Rain, 123. (back)

    8. Pradyumna P. Karan, The Changing Face of Tibet: The Impact of Chinese Communist Ideology on the Landscape (Lexington, Kentucky: University Press of Kentucky, 1976), 64. (back)

    9. Gelder and Gelder, The Timely Rain, 62 and 174. (back)

    10. As skeptically noted by Lopez, Prisoners of Shangri-La, 9. (back)

    11. See the testimony of one serf who himself had been hunted down by Tibetan soldiers and returned to his master: Anna Louise Strong, Tibetan Interviews (Peking: New World Press, 1929), 29-30 90. (back)

    12. Melvyn Goldstein, William Siebenschuh, and Tashì-Tsering, The Struggle for Modern Tibet: The Autobiography of Tashì-Tsering (Armonk, N.Y.: M.E. Sharpe, 1997). (back)

    13. Gelder and Gelder, The Timely Rain, 110. (back)

    14. Strong, Tibetan Interviews, 15, 19-21, 24. (back)

    15. Quoted in Strong, Tibetan Interviews, 25. (back)

    16. Strong, Tibetan Interviews, 31. (back)

    17. Melvyn C. Goldstein, A History of Modern Tibet 1913-1951 (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1989), 5. (back)

    18. Gelder and Gelder, The Timely Rain, 175-176; and Strong, Tibetan Interviews, 25-26. (back)

    19. Gelder and Gelder, The Timely Rain, 113. (back)

    20. A. Tom Grunfeld, The Making of Modern Tibet rev. ed. (Armonk, N.Y. and London: 1996), 9 and 7-33 for a general discussion of feudal Tibet; see also Felix Greene, A Curtain of Ignorance (Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday, 1961), 241-249; Goldstein, A History of Modern Tibet 1913-1951, 3-5; and Lopez, Prisoners of Shangri-La, passim. (back)

    21. Strong, Tibetan Interviews, 91-92. (back)

    22. Strong, Tibetan Interviews, 92-96. (back)

    23. Waddell, Landon, and O'Connor are quoted in Gelder and Gelder, The Timely Rain, 123-125. (back)

    24. Quoted in Gelder and Gelder, The Timely Rain, 125. (back)

    25. Goldstein, The Snow Lion and the Dragon, 52. (back)

    26. Goldstein, The Snow Lion and the Dragon, 54. (back)

    27. Heinrich Harrer, Return to Tibet (New York: Schocken, 1985), 29. (back)

    28. Strong, Tibetan Interview, 73. (back)

    29. See Kenneth Conboy and James Morrison, The CIA's Secret War in Tibet (Lawrence, Kansas: University of Kansas Press, 2002); and William Leary, "Secret Mission to Tibet," Air & Space, December 1997/January 1998. (back)

    30. Leary, "Secret Mission to Tibet." (back)

    31. Hugh Deane, "The Cold War in Tibet," CovertAction Quarterly (Winter 1987). (back)

    32. George Ginsburg and Michael Mathos Communist China and Tibet (1964), quoted in Deane, "The Cold War in Tibet." Deane notes that author Bina Roy reached a similar conclusion. (back)

    33. See Greene, A Curtain of Ignorance, 248 and passim; and Grunfeld, The Making of Modern Tibet, passim. (back)

    34. Los Angeles Times, 18 August 1997. (back)

    35. Harrer, Return to Tibet, 54. (back)

    36. Karan, The Changing Face of Tibet, 36-38, 41, 57-58; London Times, 4 July 1966. (back)

    37. Gelder and Gelder, The Timely Rain, 29 and 47-48. (back)

    38. Tendzin Choegyal, "The Truth about Tibet," Imprimis (publication of Hillsdale College, Michigan), April 1999. (back)

    39. Karan, The Changing Face of Tibet, 52-53. (back)

    40. Elaine Kurtenbach, Associate Press report, San Francisco Chronicle, 12 February 1998. (back)

    41. Goldstein, The Snow Lion and the Dragon, 47-48. (back)

    42. Strong, Tibetan Interviews, 15-16. (back)

    43. Jim Mann, "CIA Gave Aid to Tibetan Exiles in '60s, Files Show," Los Angeles Times, 15 September 1998; and New York Times, 1 October, 1998. (back)

    44. Reuters report, San Francisco Chronicle, 27 January 1997. (back)

    45. News & Observer, 6 September 1995, cited in Lopez, Prisoners of Shangri-La, 3. (back)

    46. Heather Cottin, "George Soros, Imperial Wizard," CovertAction Quarterly no. 74 (Fall 2002). (back)

    47. The Gelders draw this comparison, The Timely Rain, 64. (back)

    48. The Han have also moved into Xinjiang, a large northwest province about the size of Tibet, populated by Uighurs; see Peter Hessler, "The Middleman," New Yorker, 14 & 21 October 2002. (back)

    49. Report by the International Committee of Lawyers for Tibet, A Generation in Peril (Berkeley Calif.: 2001), passim. (back)

    50. International Committee of Lawyers for Tibet, A Generation in Peril, 66-68, 98. (back)

    51. John Pomfret, "Tibet Caught in China's Web," Washington Post, 23 July 1999. (back)

    52. Goldstein, The Snow Lion and the Dragon, 51. (back)

    53. Tendzin Choegyal, "The Truth about Tibet." (back)

    54. The Dalai Lama in Marianne Dresser (ed.), Beyond Dogma: Dialogues and Discourses (Berkeley, Calif.: North Atlantic Books, 1996). (back)

    55. Quoted in San Francisco Chronicle, 17 May 2001. (back)
    • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

      Thu, September 6, 2007 - 8:36 AM
      Parenti - ha ha. The guy's a Soviet apologist.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

        Thu, September 6, 2007 - 9:13 AM
        Michael Parenti is an internationally known award-winning author and lecturer. He is one of the nation’s leading progressive political analysts. His highly informative and entertaining books and talks have reached a wide range of audiences in North America and abroad.

        “A prolific author, a charismatic speaker, and a regular guest on radio and television talk shows, Parenti communicates his message in an accessible, provocative, and historically informed style that is unrivaled among fellow progressive activists and thinkers.”
        — Aurora Online, January 2004

        Michael Parenti Political Archive:
        www.michaelparenti.org/index.html
        • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

          Thu, September 6, 2007 - 1:39 PM
          Parenti is known, particularly in his capacity as a prominent member and head of the United States chapter of the International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic, as a defender of the Serb position in the Yugoslav wars. He derided what he termed the "tireless demonization of democratically-elected President Slobodan Milosevic".[1] According to Parenti, these wars were caused by a deliberate US and Western policy aiming at dismembering Yugoslavia in order to impose liberal capitalism there. In this capacity he called for Slobodan's release and defended both Milosevic and Serbs against allegations of atrocities . . .

          en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Parenti

          Oh great, he's a fan of Milosevic??? That's no "progressive," that's a fascist!
          • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

            Thu, September 6, 2007 - 1:52 PM
            That's quite the fan club Steven has. Milosovec apologists, Mao, Stalin. Have I missed anyone on this list? Oh, the Afghan government that the Soviets invaded to protect. LOL
            • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

              Thu, September 6, 2007 - 6:01 PM
              I think it's funny: Milosovec, Mao and Stalin were all cool . . . but that Dalai Lama, he's BAD!
              • Unsu...
                 

                Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                Fri, September 7, 2007 - 6:21 AM
                "I think it's funny: Milosovec, Mao and Stalin were all cool . . . but that Dalai Lama, he's BAD!"

                I've never supported Milosovic, Mao, and Stalin. Historically, I take their side against U.S., Japanese, and German imperialism, but I do not support them.

                As for the Dalai Lama, he owned slaves and fought, military, to maintain his feudal system.

                And excuse me for thinking it was a crime for the U.S. to recruit 100,000 foreign fighters for, and give billions of dollars to, Osama Bin Laden and his Mujahideen misogynist killers in their holy war against literacy and women's rights.
                • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                  Fri, September 7, 2007 - 8:04 AM
                  <<I've never supported Milosovic, Mao, and Stalin. Historically, I take their side against U.S., Japanese, and German imperialism, but I do not support them. >>



                  bhwaa!!!!! This is quite possibly one of the most ridiculous things I've read.

                  but hey, Soviet imperialism is a-ok in Steven's books!
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

            Fri, September 7, 2007 - 6:35 AM
            Parenti was right to oppose the U.S. war in Yugoslavia.

            As for U.S. intervention there causing many aspects of the war, and U.S. imperialism even supporting Milosevic's ethnic cleansing in the beginning as well as that of Croatia and KLA, there is ample evidence of that.

            Yet on Forrest's other claims against Parenti, he uses Wikipedia for a source. Wikipedia is not a source. It is an internet free for-all of “information where anyone can post. Wikipedia has proven to be interfered by the FBI, CIA, and major U.S. corporations.
            • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

              Fri, September 7, 2007 - 12:46 PM
              >>Yet on Forrest's other claims against Parenti, he uses Wikipedia for a source. Wikipedia is not a source.

              Ha! You rarely cite any source at all, and when you do, it's someone like Parenti, a supporter of the fascist Serbian regime.
              • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                Fri, September 7, 2007 - 1:00 PM
                That is funny.

                Parenti is probably the most prominent apologist for the Soviet Union of the last quarter century.

                In his 1993 book Blackshirts and Reds, Parenti complained that no one yet had conducted a "rational" assessment of the Soviet Union's accomplishments and argued that Lenin and Stalin had accomplished the sort of economic feats that capitalism could only dream of.

                Parenti went on to accuse no less than uber-leftist Noam Chomsky of red baiting and being compromised by corporate propaganda for Chomsky's anti-Soviet statements.


                Ha, he attacked Noam Chomsky. Now that is rich.
        • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

          Fri, September 7, 2007 - 9:44 PM
          <Michael Parenti is an internationally known award-winning author and lecturer. He is one of the nation’s leading progressive political analysts. His highly informative and entertaining books and talks have reached a wide range of audiences in North America and abroad.>

          Could you reference the shilling book jacket you cribbed that from Steve?
          • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

            Fri, September 7, 2007 - 10:07 PM
            LMAO JIM!


            I have had the (mis)fortune of witnessing one of Parenti's lectures when I was in college. He even autographed one of his books for me. It was one of his books in which he defends the legacy of Stalin.

            Now that is rich.

            Perhaps you want to buy the book Steven? It's autographed by Comrade Michael and everything.
  • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

    Fri, September 7, 2007 - 2:16 PM
    I'm trying to think of a country that's less deserving of this kind of acrimonious torrent of bullshit.

    Can anyone help me out? I'm sure you'll have great suggestions but at this moment my mind is just stuck on "wtf is Steven's problem? Not enough actual good works left to do - time at last to pick on the monstrous villainy of the Tibetan priesthood?"

    HEY STEVEN: DARFUR - what do these armless fucks think they're trying to pull getting all mutilated in a clear bid for easy US charity bucks? Those clever bastards. YOU'RE IGNORING THEM
    • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

      Fri, September 7, 2007 - 3:40 PM
      none?
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

        Fri, September 7, 2007 - 9:22 PM
        "I'm trying to think of a country that's less deserving of this kind of acrimonious torrent of bullshit."

        I couldn't agree more. Why do Americans so want to give the Tibetans back a ruler they have already rejected? A leader that owned slaves, kept the peasants in feudal slavery, denied the people healthcare and education, and carried out amputations as punishments. The Tibetans certainly don't deserve this bullshit.

        The Tibetans certainly deserve self-determination, but that in no way is represented by the U.S. backed Dalai Lama.

        As for other oppressed peoples, I write about them and few people seem to care on this site. Mostly they just want to pick on the ideas of the guy that won't kiss the ass of the hypocritical and homophobic "His Holiness" the god king Dalai Lama.

        Example:

        Kurdish Culture, Repression, Women’s Rights, and Resistance
        By Steven Argue
        uspolitics.tribe.net/thread/...ac8c1e64

        Why do so few people here care about the Kurds?
        • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

          Fri, September 7, 2007 - 9:31 PM
          <<Why do Americans so want to give the Tibetans back a ruler they have already rejected? A leader that owned slaves, kept the peasants in feudal slavery, denied the people healthcare and education, and carried out amputations as punishments. The Tibetans certainly don't deserve this bullshit. >>


          Bwhaa!

          Why do you keep repeating these lies? He never owned slaves. And we're talking about the 1950's. He was hardly "rejected". Tibet was invaded by China and the Chinese have slowly been eradicating all remnants of Tibetan culture. But of this you approve. I'm sure Mao would appreciate your support.
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

            Fri, September 7, 2007 - 9:46 PM
            "Until 1959, when the Dalai Lama last presided over Tibet, most of the arable land was still organized into manorial estates worked by serfs. Even a writer sympathetic to the old order allows that “a great deal of real estate belonged to the monasteries, and most of them amassed great riches.” Much of the wealth was accumulated “through active participation in trade, commerce, and money lending.” Drepung monastery was one of the biggest landowners in the world, with its 185 manors, 25,000 serfs, 300 great pastures, and 16,000 herdsmen. The wealth of the monasteries rested in the hands of small numbers of high-ranking lamas. Most ordinary monks lived modestly and had no direct access to great wealth. The Dalai Lama himself “lived richly in the 1000-room, 14-story Potala Palace,” and admits to having owned slaves during his reign." Parenti

            Try getting your facts from some other place besides Brad Pitt movies and the misguided.

            • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

              Fri, September 7, 2007 - 9:49 PM
              <<Try getting your facts from some other place besides Brad Pitt movies and the misguided. >>

              Brad Pitt? If you're talking about that silly movie, that's not where I get it from.

              Try getting your facts from some other place than the Soviet apologist Parenti.
          • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

            Fri, September 7, 2007 - 9:47 PM
            Here's the wonder you think of about Chinese rule in Tibet. I'm so glad the Chinese liberated those backward awful Tibetans. Your comrade Michael Parenti must be pleased. Those damn monks need to be put in their place!!

            www.youtube.com/watch

            www.youtube.com/watch


            • Unsu...
               

              Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

              Fri, September 7, 2007 - 9:53 PM
              From the article:

              In 1959, Anna Louise Strong visited the Central Institute of National Minorities in Beijing which trained various ethnic minorities for the civil service or prepared them for entrance into agricultural and medical schools. Of the 900 Tibetan students attending, most were runaway serfs and slaves. But about 100 were from privileged Tibetan families, sent by their parents so that they might win favorable posts in the new administration. The class divide between these two groups of students was all too evident. As the institute's director noted:

              Those from noble families at first consider that in all ways they are superior. They resent having to carry their own suitcases, make their own beds, look after their own room. This, they think, is the task of slaves; they are insulted because we expect them to do this. Some never accept it but go home; others accept it at last. The serfs at first fear the others and cannot sit at ease in the same room. In the next stage they have less fear but still feel separate and cannot mix. Only after some time and considerable discussion do they reach the stage in which they mix easily as fellow students, criticizing and helping each other. [42]

              The émigrés' plight won fulsome play in the West and substantial support from U.S. agencies dedicated to making the world safe for economic inequality. Throughout the 1960s the Tibetan exile community secretly pocketed $1.7 million a year from the CIA, according to documents released by the State Department in 1998. Once this fact was publicized, the Dalai Lama's organization itself issued a statement admitting that it had received millions of dollars from the CIA during the 1960s to send armed squads of exiles into Tibet to undermine the Maoist revolution. The Dalai Lama's annual share was $186,000, making him a paid agent of the CIA. Indian intelligence also financed him and other Tibetan exiles. [43] He has refused to say whether he or his brothers worked with the CIA. The agency has also declined to comment. [44]
              • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                Fri, September 7, 2007 - 10:11 PM
                Anna Louise Strong (1885 November 24–1970 March 29) was a twentieth-century communist sympathizer American journalist. She is perhaps best categorized as a "fellow-traveler." She is controversially known for her coverage of, and support for, communist movements in Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the People's Republic of China.

                en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Louise_Strong

                Interesting that she was there in 1959, the time of the Great Leap Forward:

                The official toll of excess deaths recorded in China for the years of the GLF is 14 million, but scholars have estimated the number of famine victims to be between 20 and 43 million.

                en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_leap_forward

                I wonder if she took any notice of the millions of oppressed Chinese who were dying all around her . . .
                • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                  Fri, September 7, 2007 - 10:20 PM
                  Anna Louise Strong

                  Author to such "classics" as:

                  The Soviets Conquer Wheat (1931
                  China's Millions: The Revolutionary Struggles from 1927 to 1935 (1935),
                  the best-selling autobiographical I Change Worlds: the Remaking of an American (1935), This Soviet World (1936), and The Soviet Constitution (1937). One Fifth of Mankind (1938). and three books on the success of the early Communist Party of China in the Chinese Civil War.
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                  Fri, September 7, 2007 - 10:25 PM
                  Forrest, Wikipedia is not a source. It is an internet free for-all of “information where anyone can post. Wikipedia has proven to be interfered by the FBI, CIA, and major U.S. corporations. Much has been written on this lately.

                  Here is an earlier article. Forrest, you may not agree with the conclusions, but perhaps you will consider the examples of libel that occur at the site.

                  Wikipedia: A Million Monkeys Typing

                  Editorial Note (Workers Vanguard)

                  Since Wikipedia was launched in 2001 with the professed aim of providing a “free encyclopedia to every single person on the planet in their own language,” it has grown explosively. With the number of visitors doubling every four months, it has become the third most popular “news and information” source on the Web. Nearly anything searched on Google returns Wikipedia as one of its top hits. Wikipedia exists in over 200 languages—including, get this, Klingon!—and the English site alone boasts nearly 1.7 million entries. By way of comparison, the Encyclopedia Britannica does not exceed 120,000 entries.

                  But Wikipedia is no encyclopedia. A menace to historical knowledge, it is a New Age fraud that often provides a sanctuary for libel and character assassination. The software tool called “wiki” (derived from a Hawaiian term for “quick” or “informal”) enables anyone to create or edit entries whenever whatever enters their minds. The New Yorker (31 July 2006) observed, “The user who spends the most time on the site—or who yells the loudest—wins.”

                  A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes, as the old proverb says. As scandals grow over the disinformation in many of Wikipedia’s entries, criticism has mounted in bourgeois academia and the media. Last month, the History Department of Middlebury College in Vermont became one of the academic institutions to bar students from using Wikipedia citations.

                  As Marxist materialists, our worldview is rooted in historical and scientific truth. Thus Workers Vanguard has had a strict, years-long policy of not using Wikipedia as a factual source of any kind.

                  Most ominously, beginning in 2004 Wikipedia has been cited in over 100 judicial rulings, including at the appellate level just below the U.S. Supreme Court. Right-wing judge Richard A. Posner of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit in Chicago recently gushed that “Wikipedia is a terrific resource…. Partly because it [is] so convenient, it often has been updated recently and is very accurate” (New York Times, 29 January). Posner speaks like a true believer in the Bush administration, whose idea of “accuracy” can be gauged by its lies about Saddam Hussein’s “weapons of mass destruction.”

                  One Jimmy Wales, an options trader who became the founder and guru of Wikipedia, tours the world promoting his “volunteer community” of “open participation.” Wales explicitly rejected scientific peer review of entries because it was “intimidating; it felt like homework.” There is no such oppressive authority in “wikiality,” to borrow a term from Stephen Colbert of Comedy Central’s The Colbert Report. “I love Wikipedia,” Colbert said in a July 2006 episode. “Any user can change any entry, and if enough other users agree with them, it becomes true.”

                  Wikipedia is not just low farce. The New York Times (24 December 2005) notes “dozens of accounts of people editing entries to suit their own business or personal interests, or their biases.” Nazi white supremacists alter terms such as “racist” to “white nationalist,” while corporations hire bloggers to write favorable entries on their companies.

                  Anonymous libelers attack from behind Wikipedia’s apparent immunity. One prominent target was John Seigenthaler, former editor of the Tennessean in Nashville, who in September 2005 discovered that for four months Wikipedia had been carrying the smear that he was implicated in the assassinations of John and Robert Kennedy. This was meant to wound and defame, as Seigenthaler had been one of Robert Kennedy’s pallbearers. Seigenthaler wrote in USA Today (29 November 2005) that due to federal law, “unlike print and broadcast companies, online service providers cannot be sued for disseminating defamatory attacks on citizens posted by others.” A local man later came forward as the author of the smear, saying that he thought Wikipedia was a “gag” Web site. Jimmy Wales himself could read how some Wikipedist in 2005 concluded Wales’ biographical entry with the tale of his murder “at 18:54 EST on December 12” by three shots to the head.

                  The anonymity on which Wikipedia prides itself recently flared up into a scandal in the media when one of its most respected administrators, known previously only as “Essjay,” turned out to be a fraud. For years he had thrown around credentials of a “tenured professor of religion” with “a Ph.D. in theology and a degree in canon law,” when in fact he is a 24-year-old with neither advanced degrees nor teaching experience. Wikipedia’s mendacity was further proven when Wales cynically welcomed the self-confessed liar onto his staff, only to drop him a week later after getting blowback.

                  The Web is a powerful and useful tool. But it also has a lot of garbage. The New Yorker article remarked that Eric Raymond, the open-source software pioneer whose work inspired Wales, stated that “‘disaster’ is not too strong a word” for Wikipedia. A founding partner of Wikipedia who has since extracted himself described what he left behind as “difficult people, trolls, and their enablers.” What better habitat for the dregs of yesterday’s Spartacist-hating “Marxism” and “Trotskyism” Internet newsgroups, the kind of people who probably have not left their computers, bathed or seen sunlight in weeks? As for cyberspace frauds, we are reminded of David North’s Socialist Equality Party, an organization of dubious political bandits that years ago liquidated its paper in favor of the “World Socialist Web Site”—a medium through which it can rewrite its history when convenient.

                  The Web is often lauded as a means of mass participation and democracy. But neither facts nor scientific laws are determined by such methods, much less by an anonymous, multiplayer, fantasy computer game. Science is the product of hard work and a rigorous critical assimilation of the achievements of past cultures and epochs, and it is embodied in the work of authoritative figures and institutions. This does not suit the petty-bourgeois Wikipedia crowd, which is thriving in a period dominated ideologically by the bourgeoisie’s “death of communism” myth and the attendant growth of religious superstition. Wales himself is an Ayn Randist free marketeer. Whatever resentments Wikipedia’s fans have of the genuine ills of bourgeois academia have been twisted into a secular variant of George Bush’s faith-based idiocy.

                  In the period of its revolutionary ascent, the bourgeoisie fought for knowledge as crucial for economic progress and as a weapon against feudalist clerical tyranny. Diderot’s Encyclopedists helped to ideologically arm the Great French Revolution of 1789-93. Today, capitalism in its death agony creates a barrier to the expansion of the means of production while dragging culture back into a new dark age. What quality education the U.S. bourgeoisie maintains is increasingly restricted to elite universities. The growth and influence of Wikipedia occurs in a period when public education is in tatters and masses of ghetto and barrio youth rot in today’s Bastilles.

                  Embracing science and the scientific method, we Marxists understand that only the revolutionary overthrow of the decaying bourgeois order by the proletariat will pave the way for the elimination of scarcity, making mankind’s great achievements and knowledge available to all.


                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                    Fri, September 7, 2007 - 10:32 PM
                    yes, steven. It was just the CIA that made anna louise strong look bad. Riiight.


                    Here's a book of hers praising Stalin

                    www.plp.org/books/strong_stalin_era.pdf
                    • Unsu...
                       

                      Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                      Fri, September 7, 2007 - 10:39 PM
                      I never said I agreed with everything Anna Louise Strong said. She was one of many eyewitnesses to what took place in Tibet.

                      Part of my point here is that much of what is posted on Wikipedia is inaccurate falsehoods or spin, and people working full time for the CIA, FBI, and major corporations have a lot more time to make sure that their opinions dominate in edit wars at Wikipedia.
                      • Re: Dumbass Pseudoactivism: The Tibet Smokescreen

                        Fri, September 7, 2007 - 11:09 PM
                        So did you take any time to talk with any Tibetans before you decided to liberate them from..... whatever it is you're pretending is important to liberate them from? The 1950s, is it?

                        Fucking *support* something worthwhile. This is a sham, and you're being a stooge - the question now is whether it's intentional or not.
                        • Unsu...
                           

                          Tibet and Kurdistan

                          Fri, September 7, 2007 - 11:21 PM
                          I support many worthwhile things, including opposition to the Dalai Lama and all other religious shams and CIA political fronts like the Dalai Lama that supported the bombing of Afghanistan.


                          On a more relevant issue to U.S. politics, the question of the Kurdish people living in part under U.S. occupation, I write about them and nobody seems to care on this site.

                          Example:

                          Kurdish Culture, Repression, Women’s Rights, and Resistance
                          By Steven Argue
                          uspolitics.tribe.net/thread/...ac8c1e64

                          Free Kurdistan!
                          • Re: Tibet and Kurdistan

                            Sat, September 8, 2007 - 12:28 AM
                            Good play. I have close Kurdish *and* Tibetan friends.

                            You should meet some Tibetans, and talk with them, and then reconsider whether this is an appropriate platform for non-Tibetans to take a stance on. Meanwhile, there's a nation whose people are currently experiencing the crush of an oppressive regime which crushes their communities, silences their protests, kidnaps and tortures people in secret camps, and is dismantling their government which is one of the oldest and best-known modern democracies in the world. Though these people are not yet suffering at the same level as other peoples of the world, they are after all *your* people, and they deserve your passion. More poignantly, you have the ethical right and the requisite information to *actually* represent their cause accurately and without hypocrisy (unintentional or otherwise). Think of them a minute.

                            Sorry for the harshness, btw. The DL was very cool to me so I have a hard time with your bashing him. Monks and nuns from Tibet - that I love on a personal level - never quite evinced the heinous evil you seem to want to blanket them with. So forgive me if, even after this weak apology, I consider you an asshole for a bit longer while I process how stupidly and ignorantly you accuse them of a murderous guile they simply do not exhibit in any way.

                            Focusing the activism-urge outside your home at this time strikes me as either escapist or just cowardly.
                            • Unsu...
                               

                              Re: Tibet and Kurdistan

                              Sat, September 8, 2007 - 8:26 AM
                              The U.S. is at war with the people of the world. Every issue of U.S. imperialism is important. As much as you want to believe in the Dalai Lama, he was responsible for immense injustice, as his politics have only changed a little, and that is because he was removed from power.

                              Before he was removed from power he got his money from an exploitive sytem of serf and chattel slavery, after from the CIA.

                              As far as what is going on in the United States, I am not silent. Examples:

                              Pro-War Democrats Battle for the Presidency
                              By Steven Argue
                              portland.indymedia.org/en/200...1.shtml

                              Top Ten “Fry Mumia” Myths Debunked
                              (Myth #1) “Five eyewitnesses saw Mumia shoot officer Faulkner.”
                              By Steven Argue
                              indybay.org/newsitems/20.../18436405.php

                              City Council Passes Resolution Preventing Vigilante Justice Against Homeless
                              By Steven Argue
                              www.indybay.org/newsitems/...8442098.php
  • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

    Fri, September 7, 2007 - 10:04 PM
    Steven, more people have died at the hands of Marxist inspired regimes than have died in all the religious wars, inquisitions and oppressions in history combined. Around 60 million dead just between Marx and Stalin, not counting Pol Pot and others. That's more between just two guys embracing your Marxist ideology than all the deaths that religious wars and inquisitions have ever claimed.
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

      Fri, September 7, 2007 - 10:17 PM
      "Steven, more people have died at the hands of Marxist inspired regimes than have died in all the religious wars, inquisitions and oppressions in history combined. Around 60 million dead just between Marx and Stalin, not counting Pol Pot and others."

      An absolutely outrageous lie. You'd have to count those that fought against Hitler as well the over 6 million murdered by U.S. imperialism in Vietnam and Korea, and still you'd never come near these numbers. Total nonsense.

      Besides your numbers being wrong, Pol Pot was not a Marxist. His Khmer Rouge had strange ideas about de-industrialization. This is contrary to any Marxist thought. The Khmer Rouge killed a lot of people and did nothing good. It is interesting that Vietnam sent them packing to Thailand where the United States then funded the Khmer Rouge as a murderous contra army against the Cambodians and Vietnamese.

      For mass murder, look to capitalism. Especially look at the history of U.S., German, and Japanese imperialism.
      • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

        Fri, September 7, 2007 - 10:23 PM
        <<Besides your numbers being wrong, Pol Pot was not a Marxist>>


        Right, Pol Pot was a Maoist. Time for a Holiday in Cambodia?


        Marx's philosophical work is actually quite interesting.
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

          Fri, September 7, 2007 - 10:33 PM
          Like I said:

          Pol Pot was not a Marxist. His Khmer Rouge had strange ideas about de-industrialization. This is contrary to any Marxist thought. The Khmer Rouge killed a lot of people and did nothing good. It is interesting that Vietnam sent them packing to Thailand where the United States then funded the Khmer Rouge as a murderous contra army against the Cambodians and Vietnamese.

          For mass murder, look to capitalism. Especially look at the history of U.S., German, and Japanese imperialism.
          • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

            Fri, September 7, 2007 - 10:52 PM
            <<For mass murder, look to capitalism. Especially look at the history of U.S., German, and Japanese imperialism.>>

            As opposed to great Communist imperialism right?
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

              Fri, September 7, 2007 - 11:06 PM
              What "great communist imperialism" is that?
              • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                Fri, September 7, 2007 - 11:16 PM
                Oh, you know most of Eastern Europe (you have heard of that?), Afghanistan, etc.
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                  Fri, September 7, 2007 - 11:44 PM
                  "Oh, you know most of Eastern Europe (you have heard of that?), Afghanistan, etc."

                  The Soviet Union went into Eastern Europe to smash Hitler. That was a good thing.

                  Later Soviet interventions in Czechoslovakia, Poland, and Hungary in the 50's and 60's were bad. They put down revolts that had the potential of implementing true democratic socialism. Still, while this was wrong, it was very small compared to the over 6 million the U.S. murdered in just Korea and Vietnam alone in those decades, not to mention the many other countries the U.S. was intervening in.

                  As for Afghanistan. Soviet troops were invited in by the Afghani PDPA government to battle the CIA's Osama Bin-Laden Mujahideen holy warriors against women's rights, literacy, and land reform. U.S. imperialism put billions dollars towards those misogynist cut-throats that threw acid into the faces of women liberated from the veil and murdered women for teaching little girls how to read or write. In that war the CIA recruited 100,000 foreign fighters to fight for what became the Taliban government. It was the United States government that were the true criminals in Afghanistan, not the Soviet Union.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                    Fri, September 7, 2007 - 11:55 PM
                    It was the United States government that were the true criminals in Afghanistan, not the Soviet Union.


                    Oh, now this is truly hilarious.

                    hrw.org/reports/2005/a...istan0605/2.htm

                    In the 1980s (Afghan years 1359-68), the Soviet Red Army and its allied Afghan army committed massive war crimes and crimes against humanity, intentionally targeting civilians and civilian areas for attack, killing prisoners, and torturing and murdering detainees. And in the mid- to late-1990s

                    Human Rights Watch and other human rights groups have already documented, in numerous earlier reports, the atrocities of Soviet armed forces and the Afghan client government,

                    www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.ns...VIU-6EFHSL

                    # From the PDPA period, April 1978 to December 1979: Arrests, disappearances and summary executions; the Kerala massacre 1979; the Herat uprising in March 1979; bombings, disappearances and resistance in Hazarajat 1979; crackdown on uprisings in Kabul; torture.

                    # From the PDPA period and Soviet Occupation 1980-1988: Arrests, detention and torture; Indiscriminate bombardments and reprisals against civilians in the countryside

                    # From the Najibullah government after the Soviet withdrawal, and the resistance: Continuing bombardments; abuses by government-backed militias; attacks on Afghans in Pakistan; torture in mujahidin prisons.
                    • Unsu...
                       

                      Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                      Sat, September 8, 2007 - 8:33 AM
                      The worst crime of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan was withdrawing, leaving the country to the CIA's Mujahideen and Taliban.
                      • Unsu...
                         

                        Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                        Wed, September 12, 2007 - 9:38 PM
                        As I’ve said in response to Forrest before, Wikipedia is not a source. It is an internet free for-all of “information” where anyone can post. Wikipedia has proven to be interfered by the FBI, CIA, and major U.S. corporations. Much has been written on this lately.

                        Corporations delete whole sections like the long-term health problems caused by their cola and write such nonsense as, causes no long-term health problems.

                        The simple fact is that in an edit war on Wikipedia, the truth will not prevail. It is the full time the editors from corporations and government agencies that win. The rest of us don't have the time for that crap.
      • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

        Fri, September 7, 2007 - 11:35 PM
        "An absolutely outrageous lie. You'd have to count those that fought against Hitler as well the over 6 million murdered by U.S. imperialism in Vietnam and Korea, and still you'd never come near these numbers. Total nonsense. "

        Nope. Not counting WWII, Stalin was responsible for the deaths of about 20 million of his own people, and Mao responsible for about 40 million.
        • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

          Fri, September 7, 2007 - 11:42 PM
          <<Stalin was responsible for the deaths of about 20 million of his own people, and Mao responsible for about 40 million.>>


          ah, but Ron it was all done for the Fatherland and our fellow comrades in arms.

          LMAO
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

            Fri, September 7, 2007 - 11:47 PM
            Ron claims, "Nope. Not counting WWII, Stalin was responsible for the deaths of about 20 million of his own people, and Mao responsible for about 40 million."

            Again, this is 100% false. No matter how many times proponents of the pro-Nazi "Black Book of Communism" spout this lie, it doesn't become true.
        • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

          Fri, September 7, 2007 - 11:56 PM
          Surveying left wing and right wing academics and experts, the numbers of Soviets who died as a result of Stalin typically range from about six million on the low range to about 50-60 million on the upper end.

          Nove, Alec, "Victims of Stalinism: How Many?" in J. Arch Getty (ed.) Stalinist Terror: New Perspectives, 1993: Between 6-10 million dead

          Ponton, G., "The Soviet Era", 1994. 3.5to 8 million

          Wallechinsky: 20-60 million

          Solzhenitsyn, Aleksandr: 60 million.

          Gordon, A., What Happened in That Time?, 1989: 8-9 million

          William Cockerham, "Health and Social Change in Russia and Eastern Europe": 50 million or more

          Adler, N: 20-60 million
          • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

            Fri, September 7, 2007 - 11:58 PM
            if the higher numbers (50-60 million) are correct, then Stalin is personally responsible for more deaths than all of history's religious wars and persecutions combined.
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

              Sat, September 8, 2007 - 8:31 AM
              The main problem is that these numbers are incorrect. For them to be anywhere near correct you'd have to count those that died as a result of the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union.

              Yet Stalin is a bit of a straw-man here. I don't support Stalin. Nor do I support the Dalai Lama.
              • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                Sat, September 8, 2007 - 10:44 AM
                Counting Stalin's victims is a difficult task, because Soviet records are often inaccessible, incomplete or unreliable. The largest group of victims dírectly attributable to Stalin died in the forced collectivization of the 1930s. As Churchill described a 1942 conversation with Stalin:

                "When I raised the question of the collective farms and the struggle with the kulaks, Stalin became very serious. I asked him if it was as bad as the war. 'Oh, yes,' he answered. 'Worse. Much worse. It went on for years. Most of them were liquidated by the peasants, who hated them. Ten millions of them. But we had to do it to mechanize our agriculture. In the end, production from the land was doubled. What is one generation?' Stalin demanded as he paced up and down the length of the table." ("Churchill, Taken from the Diaries of Lord Moran," p.70)

                There have been many attempts to estimate the number of victims, which vary widely; one can only definitely say that it was in the millions.

                en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor


                Another group of victims died in the Great Purge:

                According to the declassified Soviet archives, during 1937 and 1938, the NKVD detained 1,548,367 victims, of whom 681,692 were shot - an average of 1,000 executions a day. Historian Michael Ellman claims the best estimate of deaths brought about by Soviet Repression during these two years is the range 950,000 to 1.2 million - i.e. about a million – which includes deaths in detention and those who died shortly after being released from the Gulag as a result of their treatment in it. He also states that this is the estimate which should be used by historians and teachers of Russian history. According to Memorial society

                On the cases investigated by the State Security Department of NKVD (GUGB NKVD):
                At least 1,710,000 people were arrested
                At least 1,440,000 people were sentenced
                At least 724,000 were executed. Among them:
                At least 436,000 people were sentenced to death by NKVD troikas as part of the Kulak operation
                At least 247,000 people were sentenced to death by NKVD Dvoikas' and the Local Special Troykas as part of the Ethnic Operation
                At least 41,000 people were sentenced to death by Military Courts

                Among other cases in October 1936-November 1938:
                At least 400,000 were sentenced to labor camps by Police Troikas as Socially Harmful Elements (социально-вредный элемент, СВЭ)
                At least 200,000 were exiled or deported by Administrative procedures
                At least 2 million were sentenced by courts for common crimes, among them 800,000 were sentenced to Gulag camps.

                Some experts believe the evidence released from the Soviet archives is understated, incomplete or unreliable. For example, Robert Conquest suggests that the probable figure for executions during the years of the Great Purge is not 681,692, but some two and a half times as high. He believes that the KGB was covering its tracks by falsifying the dates and causes of death of rehabilitated victims.

                en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge


                Not all who escaped execution survived the gulags:

                The total deaths shown by the declassified archives in the GULAG from 1931 to 1953 amount to about 1 million in "corrective labor camps." Another archival document contains the number of roughly 1.6 million deaths in both "corrective labor camps" and "corrective labor colonies" during the years 1930–56 (figures for colonies are included from 1935 onwards). These figures include deaths of political and common prisoners, but they do not include executions of camp inmates that occurred during various waves of terror.

                en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag


                Other victims belonged to ethnic minorities ethnically cleansed from their homelands:

                Shortly before, during and immediately after World War II, Stalin conducted a series of deportations on a huge scale which profoundly affected the ethnic map of the Soviet Union. It is estimated that between 1941 and 1949 nearly 3.3 million were deported to Siberia and the Central Asian republics. Approximately 50% of the resettled population died of diseases and malnutrition. Estimates of the total number of deported Poles vary between 400,000 and 1.6 million people.

                en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popu...viet_Union


                A reasonable estimate of Stalin's victims, excluding those who died in war, would be between 7 and 9 million. If we add unnecessary deaths through military action (due to aggression against neutral countries, the refusal to evacuate civilians, soldiers perished in pointless attacks or because they were forbidden to retreat, liberated P.O.W.s who were treated as criminals), the number might be twice as high . . .
                • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                  Sat, September 8, 2007 - 12:08 PM
                  It is rather amazing that Communism still has any fans left.


                  I also find it funny that Steven goes so far to even call crackpots like Ward Churchill a shill for the CIA. Now that is conspiracy thinking at its most bizarre.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                    Sat, September 8, 2007 - 9:59 PM
                    "I also find it funny that Steven goes so far to even call crackpots like Ward Churchill a shill for the CIA. Now that is conspiracy thinking at its most bizarre."

                    To be so far to the left that you consider Ward Churchill a shill for the CIA puts you so far to the left that perhaps there needs to be a new label describing the extreme left of the extreme left. So far left he falls off the planet
                    • Unsu...
                       

                      Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                      Wed, September 12, 2007 - 7:27 PM
                      I never said Churchill was a shill fo the CIA, I said he is a shill for U.S. imperialism. The American Indian Movement (AIM) has linked him to the FBI. His mission seems to be to discredit the American Indian Movement, anti-war movement, and left in general. I'll post more on that in a minute here is a statement by AIM on Churchill:

                      Here is the AIM statement on Churchill:

                      AMERICAN INDIAN MOVEMENT GRAND GOVERNING COUNCIL


                      MINISTRY FOR INFORMATION
                      P.O. Box 13521
                      Minneapolis MN 55414
                      612/ 721-3914 . fax 612/ 721-7826
                      Email: aimggc@worldnet.att.net
                      Web Address: www.aimovement.org




                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      Ward Churchill was scheduled to speak at Hamilton College in Clinton, New York on February 3, 2005. His appearance was canceled by the college after he caused a public furor over his loathsome remarks about the 9-11 tragedy in New York. AIM's Grand Governing Council has been dealing with Churchill's hateful attitude and rip-off of Indian people for years.



                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                      The American Indian Movement Grand Governing Council representing the National and International leadership of the American Indian Movement once again is vehemently and emphatically repudiating and condemning the outrageous statements made by academic literary and Indian fraud, Ward Churchill in relationship to the 9-11 tragedy in New York City that claimed thousands of innocent people’s lives.

                      Churchill’s statement that these people deserved what happened to them, and calling them little Eichmanns, comparing them to Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann, who implemented Adolf Hitler’s plan to exterminate European Jews and others, should be condemned by all.

                      The sorry part of this is Ward Churchill has fraudulently represented himself as an Indian, and a member of the American Indian Movement, a situation that has lifted him into the position of a lecturer on Indian activism. He has used the American Indian Movement’s chapter in Denver to attack the leadership of the official American Indian Movement with his misinformation and propaganda campaigns.

                      Ward Churchill has been masquerading as an Indian for years behind his dark glasses and beaded headband. He waves around an honorary membership card that at one time was issued to anyone by the Keetoowah Tribe of Oklahoma. Former President Bill Clinton and many others received these cards, but these cards do not qualify the holder a member of any tribe. He has deceitfully and treacherously fooled innocent and naïve Indian community members in Denver, Colorado, as well as many other people worldwide. Churchill does not represent, nor does he speak on behalf of the American Indian Movement.

                      New York’s Hamilton College Kirklands Project should be aware that in their search for truth and justice, the idea that they have hired a fraud to speak on Indian activism is in itself a betrayal of their goals.

                      Dennis J. Banks, Ojibwa Nation
                      Chairman of the Board
                      American Indian Movement
                      Phone: 218-654-5885


                      Nee Gon Nway Wee Dung, aka, Clyde H. Bellecourt, Ojibwa Nation
                      National Executive Director
                      American Indian Movement
                      Cell: 612-251-5836
                      Office: 612-724-3129


                      Press Contact:
                      WaBun-Inini, aka, Vernon Bellecourt, Ojibwa Nation
                      Executive Committee Member
                      Director Council on Foreign Relations
                      American Indian Movement
                      Office: 612-721-3914
                      Cell: 612-889-0796


                      See the following:

                      Us vs AIM

                      Us vs AIM Backgound

                      Indian Country Today: Editors' Report

                      Keetoowah Tribe Response

                      The Public's Response

                      Churchill Cartoon

                      For more information regarding Churchill’s fraudulent enrollment:

                      United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians of Oklahoma
                      Enrollment officer: 918-431-0385 or 918-456-8698

                    • Unsu...
                       
                      I never said Churchill was a shill fo the CIA, I said he is a shill for U.S. imperialism. The American Indian Movement (AIM) has linked him to the FBI. His mission seems to be to discredit the American Indian Movement, anti-war movement, and left in general. I'll post more on that in a minute here is a statement by AIM on Churchill:

                      Here is the AIM statement on Churchill:

                      AMERICAN INDIAN MOVEMENT GRAND GOVERNING COUNCIL


                      MINISTRY FOR INFORMATION
                      P.O. Box 13521
                      Minneapolis MN 55414
                      612/ 721-3914 . fax 612/ 721-7826
                      Email: aimggc@worldnet.att.net
                      Web Address: www.aimovement.org




                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      Ward Churchill was scheduled to speak at Hamilton College in Clinton, New York on February 3, 2005. His appearance was canceled by the college after he caused a public furor over his loathsome remarks about the 9-11 tragedy in New York. AIM's Grand Governing Council has been dealing with Churchill's hateful attitude and rip-off of Indian people for years.



                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                      The American Indian Movement Grand Governing Council representing the National and International leadership of the American Indian Movement once again is vehemently and emphatically repudiating and condemning the outrageous statements made by academic literary and Indian fraud, Ward Churchill in relationship to the 9-11 tragedy in New York City that claimed thousands of innocent people’s lives.

                      Churchill’s statement that these people deserved what happened to them, and calling them little Eichmanns, comparing them to Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann, who implemented Adolf Hitler’s plan to exterminate European Jews and others, should be condemned by all.

                      The sorry part of this is Ward Churchill has fraudulently represented himself as an Indian, and a member of the American Indian Movement, a situation that has lifted him into the position of a lecturer on Indian activism. He has used the American Indian Movement’s chapter in Denver to attack the leadership of the official American Indian Movement with his misinformation and propaganda campaigns.

                      Ward Churchill has been masquerading as an Indian for years behind his dark glasses and beaded headband. He waves around an honorary membership card that at one time was issued to anyone by the Keetoowah Tribe of Oklahoma. Former President Bill Clinton and many others received these cards, but these cards do not qualify the holder a member of any tribe. He has deceitfully and treacherously fooled innocent and naïve Indian community members in Denver, Colorado, as well as many other people worldwide. Churchill does not represent, nor does he speak on behalf of the American Indian Movement.

                      New York’s Hamilton College Kirklands Project should be aware that in their search for truth and justice, the idea that they have hired a fraud to speak on Indian activism is in itself a betrayal of their goals.

                      Dennis J. Banks, Ojibwa Nation
                      Chairman of the Board
                      American Indian Movement
                      Phone: 218-654-5885


                      Nee Gon Nway Wee Dung, aka, Clyde H. Bellecourt, Ojibwa Nation
                      National Executive Director
                      American Indian Movement
                      Cell: 612-251-5836
                      Office: 612-724-3129


                      Press Contact:
                      WaBun-Inini, aka, Vernon Bellecourt, Ojibwa Nation
                      Executive Committee Member
                      Director Council on Foreign Relations
                      American Indian Movement
                      Office: 612-721-3914
                      Cell: 612-889-0796


                      See the following:

                      Us vs AIM

                      Us vs AIM Backgound

                      Indian Country Today: Editors' Report

                      Keetoowah Tribe Response

                      The Public's Response

                      Churchill Cartoon

                      For more information regarding Churchill’s fraudulent enrollment:

                      United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians of Oklahoma
                      Enrollment officer: 918-431-0385 or 918-456-8698

                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    Ward Churchill, Shill For U.S. Imperialism

                    Wed, September 12, 2007 - 7:38 PM
                    I didn't say Churchill was a shill for the CIA, I said he is a shill for U.S. imperialism. Also read my other posts here from the American Indian Movement on Churchill.

                    Ward Churchill, Shill For U.S. Imperialism

                    By Steven Argue

                    The American Indian Movement is clear. Ward Churchill is a fraud that has built his entire career around his false claim of being Native American.

                    Yet many on the left remain unclear about the real issues raised by the Churchill controversy, issues that are deadly serious in their importance to the entire left and the ant-war movement, as well as to the American Indian Movement.

                    Ward Churchill is an apologist for the mass murder of working class people at the World Trade Center.

                    Ward Churchill said of the September 11th terrorists and mass murderers:

                    "They did not license themselves to ‘target innocent civilians’".

                    “There is simply no argument to be made that the Pentagon personnel killed on September 11 fill that bill. The building and those inside comprised military targets, pure and simple. As to those in the World Trade Center . . .”

                    “Well, really. Let's get a grip here, shall we? True enough, they were civilians of a sort. But innocent? Gimme a break. They formed a technocratic corps at the very heart of America's global financial empire -- the "mighty engine of profit" to which the military dimension of U.S. policy has always been enslaved – and they did so both willingly and knowingly. Recourse to "ignorance" -- a derivative, after all, of the word "ignore" -- counts as less than an excuse among this relatively well-educated elite. To the extent that any of them were unaware of the costs and consequences to others of what they were involved in -- and in many cases excelling at -- it was because of their absolute refusal to see. More likely, it was because they were too busy braying, incessantly and self-importantly, into their cell phones, arranging power lunches and stock transactions, each of which translated, conveniently out of sight, mind and smelling distance, into the starved and rotting flesh of infants. If there was a better, more effective, or in fact any other way of visiting some penalty befitting their participation upon the little Eichmanns inhabiting the sterile sanctuary of the twin towers, I'd really be interested in hearing about it.” From “Some People Push Back” Ward Churchill

                    Churchill, give us a break, Bin Laden used planes full of civilians to murder thousands of people, including many innocent working class people at the World Trade Center. Bin Laden was a product of billions of dollars in U.S. / CIA intervention against the people of Central Asia. He had the same disregard for human life as his CIA sponsors.

                    When I went to Nicaragua in the 1980s it was ruled by a popular revolutionary government that had overcome the butchers of the U.S. imposed Somoza family and was facing the mass murder of the U.S. organized and financed Contra War. Yet I was greeted by the Nicaraguan people as a friend, not as an enemy or little Eichman of the empire as Churchill would characterize the American working class. So many people came to me to tell me that I had to go back to the United States to tell the truth because, as they saw it, if the Americans truly knew what the U.S. government was doing to the people of Nicaragua, they would be outraged and stop it.

                    An apologist for that mass murder of Nicaraguans by the CIA was Ward Churchill with his false claims against the Sandinistas.

                    Likewise, an apologist for the mass murder of working class people at the World Trade Center was Ward Churchill.

                    The Sandinistas made a revolution against the murderous U.S. installed and backed Somoza dictatorship.

                    Unlike Churchill in his academic Ivory Tower, the revolutionary people of Nicaragua in the 1980s knew that the American working class was a potential ally in the struggle against imperialism that needed to be convinced, not blown up. The Nicaraguans saw from their own experience under the Somoza dictatorship that governments often do not represent the people and they saw the American people’s struggle against the U.S. war of aggression in Vietnam as a possibility that could be repeated.

                    Unfortunately, the U.S. succeeded in destroying the popular and democratically elected government of Nicaragua through a long dirty war (terrorism), blackmail of more war, and massive intervention in their elections. The fact that the Sandinistas failed to make greater inroads against capitalism, also helped produce their demise.

                    In 1986, I met with Miskito Indians that supported the Sandinistas. At that time the Miskito Indians were being granted governmental autonomy on the Atlantic Coast and the Sandinistas had recognized that they had made errors when they came into the region after the victorious revolution in 1979. Among other things, the Sandinistas were carrying out literacy campaigns, vaccination campaigns against horrible diseases, and building housing in the region. The key error made was in not properly consulting the Miskito and other indigenous people in what they wanted rather than just giving them what the Sandinistas felt they needed. The regional autonomy and its localized democracy was set up to remedy these problems.

                    The CIA war against the Nicaraguan people caused further hardships, especially in regions near the Honduran border where the CIA’s mercenaries would carry bloody terrorist attacks and then run back to the protection of the territory under the control of the U.S. backed military dictatorship in Honduras. Relocating some people who were otherwise being killed in the middle of a war zone can hardly be considered a first step towards genocide against the Moskitos as Churchill presented it.

                    The Sandinistas were part of the solution, not the problem. The actual genocide against Indians taking place at that time was under the U.S. backed capitalist military government of Guatemala. There whole villages were slaughtered with U.S., Argentinean, and Israeli supplied weapons.

                    Churchill, instead of defending the gains of the Nicaraguan Revolution in the struggle against imperialism, used his false claim of being Native American to make false and exaggerated claims about the mistreatment of native people in Nicaragua.

                    Churchill was on the wrong side then, and he is on the wrong side now. He is a petty bourgeois academic scoundrel that is getting publicity because of his outrageous statements, while many better people opposed to war in America, especially but not limited to Arabs, have no platform to speak, are loosing their jobs, and are even being imprisoned for their beliefs.

                    To call those that were propelled into the world trade center by these Bin Laden progeny of the CIA little Eichman’s, turns reality on its head.

                    The American working class does not willingly give authority to the capitalist class and its government. That government, and system, maintains its power through lies and all kinds of coercion from economic survival to direct repressive violence against workers and others who fight back.

                    Violence against the innocent people of the World Trade Center was a crime. The fact that a few of the many were not innocent in their roles with finance capital does not change this.

                    Likewise, the German people were the first victims of the Nazis. The capitalist class of Germany put the Nazis in power to crush a rebellious working class.

                    It was a minority in the working class, and the population as a whole, that supported Hitler when he seized power. After, support for Hitler became compulsory and opposition prohibited. There is no way to gage Hitler’s real support beyond the time of his seizure of power.

                    Hitler could have never come to power without major backing from the capitalist class. That capitalist class placed Hitler in power to smash the mass movements of the working class.

                    Hitler's supporters included a mass movement that was largely made up of angry small business people, their disillusioned offspring, and other petty bourgeois and former petty bourgeois elements. Such petty bourgeois elements, many who had lost their businesses, were caught between the rock of the failures of the capitalist system, and the hard place of worker unrest, both cutting into their lively-hoods.

                    These were the people who most believed in the racial hatred taught both by Hitler and by the capitalist system before Hitler, and who believed in fighting to defend capitalism by any means necessary. They blamed their problems on the groups targeted both by Hitler and the capitalist class. As such, they were well funded shock troops that were nearly given a free reign by the capitalist government to terrorize union workers, Jews, socialists, and communists even before Hitler had taken power.

                    Yes, there were a minority of workers who were fooled into helping Hitler take power as well, but they were a minority. Many were attracted to what they saw as needed radical solutions in the face of the Social Democratic Party’s (SPD’s) inability put forward a revolutionary program. The SPD had become just another capitalist party that had supported the German capitalist class in the inter-imperialist First World War.

                    The fact that some workers supported Hitler does not change the fact that the fascist government was created by the capitalist class with mass support from petty bourgeois and declassed lumpen proletarian elements. Hitler’s was a government created to smash the mass movements of a rebellious working class that had nearly overthrown the capitalist government in 1920 under the revolutionary socialist leadership of Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht.

                    Just as the mass murder carried out against human beings on three jet planes used as missiles and other innocent victims at the World Trade Center was a crime, so was the mass murder carried out by the U.S. government against the working class of Dresden, another non-military target.

                    Osama Bin Laden is an extreme lunatic of the religious right who owes his entire career to the billions of dollars the U.S. provided to him in his holy war against literacy, women’s rights, and the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. Making excuses for Bin Laden’s murderous misogynists is the last thing on earth that the left and the anti-war movement should be doing.

                    Likewise, Bin Laden’s actions have had the predictable result of bringing on more repression and war. It is mass movements based among the working class that have the potential of bringing change, not terrorism against the working class.

                    In stark contrast to Churchill’s support for the September 11 attack, Liberation News issued the following statement on September 12, 2001:

                    “Americans watched in horror as the World Trade Center collapsed. Yet it was a horror no different from what the U.S. government has done with it's bombing of civilian populations in Iraq, Yugoslavia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, and Korea. The U.S. bombings of just these countries, not to mention many other U.S. acts of war, murdered millions of civilians. Terror against civilians is never justified…

                    “Today the clerical fascists of the Taliban rule Afghanistan. The CIA put them in power with billions of dollars in U.S. military aid. This massive U.S. intervention in Afghanistan was in opposition to the revolutionary PDPA government that came to power in 1978 on issues of promoting women’s rights and land reform. Literacy campaigns began teaching the poor and women how to read and write.

                    “Foreign religious fanatics and wealthy defenders of the old feudal system came together in a terrorist organization called the Mujahideen (from which the Taliban were later formed). With billions of dollars in assistance from the U.S. [starting under the Jimmy Carter presidency] these fanatical cutthroats waged a holy war that included killing woman for teaching little girls how to read and write and throwing acid into the faces of women who had become liberated from the veil. The Taliban came to power as a result of this U.S. intervention.

                    “Will a U.S. war now against the Taliban and former CIA aid recipient Osama Bin Laden set things straight? No. It will be the people of Afghanistan who suffer death and destruction from war as the U.S. attempts to install a puppet government friendly to U.S. corporate (oil) interests.” Steven Argue, Liberation News, September 12, 2002

                    For Liberation News, these were the real issues, not making excuses for the Taliban murderers.
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                  Wed, September 12, 2007 - 9:36 PM
                  More Wikipedia nonsense from Forrest.

                  As I’ve said in response to Forrest before, Wikipedia is not a source. It is an internet free for-all of “information” where anyone can post. Wikipedia has proven to be interfered by the FBI, CIA, and major U.S. corporations. Much has been written on this lately.

                  Corporations delete whole sections like the long-term health problems caused by their cola and write such nonsense as, causes no long-term health problems.

                  The simple fact is that in an edit war on Wikipedia, the truth will not prevail. It is the full time the editors from corporations and government agencies that win. The rest of us don't have the time for that crap.
              • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                Sat, September 8, 2007 - 1:22 PM
                "For them to be anywhere near correct you'd have to count those that died as a result of the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union. "

                Incorrect. Those numbers exclude WWII. Since you're not an expert and are only a shill for Stalinism, no one has any reason to believe you
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Once Again Ron Does Not Know What He Is Talking About

                  Wed, September 12, 2007 - 7:21 PM
                  The Lie that Stalin Was Worse than Hitler

                  The Hoax About the Ukrainian Famine of the 1930s: Part 4
                  Anti-Communists have always attacked communism using lies and half-truths. The following article is a continuation of our exposé of the lies around the Ukrainian famine during the first half of the 1930s.

                  Starvation did occur on some scale in the Soviet Union during collectivization. When combined with premature deaths from disease which would not have occurred without malnutrition, casualties in the USSR as a whole may well have reached one to two million.

                  This is far lower than the figures bandied about by the anti- Communist author Robert Conquest and the Ukrainian nationalists. Conquest "estimates" 14.5 million deaths from collectivization in the USSR as a whole, of which 5 million are starvation deaths in the Ukraine alone. Mace gives the figure of "almost 7.5 million" for Ukrainians alone, and an "irreducible minimum of over 5.5 million Ukrainians;" he really believes it was much higher than that. The Ukrainian nationalist film Harvest of Despair gives a figure of 7 million in the Ukraine, 10 million in all. 1.

                  Earlier articles in this series have shown that these figures are grossly exaggerated. But even a half or a quarter of the figure of 2 million, supported by recent studies, is a serious matter. Why do the film, Conquest, and others insist on tremendous figures? Why isn't the truth "bad enough" for them?

                  And why the other lies: about Stalin's supposed "personal role;" the "deliberate starvation of the Ukraine," etc.? Why the use of false film footage and highly dubious photographs long proven to have been fakes?

                  The explanation is to be found in the motives of the "researchers." They have particular political interests and ideas to push. Responsible scholarship does not support these ideas. Therefore, they cannot accept the results of the best bourgeois research. Neither the nationalists nor Conquest are in the least interested in the truth about what happened in the USSR. Let's take a look at the motives behind these lies.

                  Self-Promotion
                  The Ukrainian nationalist portray themselves as "champions" of the Ukraine. They hope to attract more support from the US ruling class as war between Soviet and US bosses comes nearer. Like all forms of nationalism, they serve the interests of the intellectual and other elites, who wold become the new ruling class if the Ukraine ever achieved "self-determination." [Note, 1996: this is exactly what has happened, and Ukrainian nationalists are fabricating anti-Communist lies harder than ever in an attempt to build Ukrainian nationalism to justify exploiting Ukrainian workers].

                  But Ukrainian workers and peasants would be no better off than they are now if their ruling class were Ukrainian. This point cannot be overstressed. Nationalism is a bourgeois, capitalist ideology. It can never serve the interests of the working class, because it urges the workers to "unite" behind those who exploit them -- the bosses of "their own" ethnic, linguistic, etc. group. The misery of the workers and peasants of India, South America, Africa, etc., now ruled by "their own" bosses instead of colonialists, proves this point. Ukrainian workers are now [1987 - ed.] exploited by Russian bosses; they'd be no better off under Ukrainian ones. But of course the nationalists have to try to show the opposite. Consequently, they must lie.

                  The Ukrainian nationalists are encouraged by the growth and success of fascist Cuban exiles, racist Zionists, and especially the reactionary Polish "Solidarity" movement in winning support from US bosses. They hope to do the same.

                  They also hope to use the famine to gain sympathy among US workers, where millions are aware of the Nazi murder of millions of Jews. They know that almost any lie can be spread without fear of serious contradiction, as long as it serves US bosses' anti- Communist purposes.

                  Pushing the issue of the famine also helps unite many Ukrainian emigrants behind them who otherwise would not support them. As we have seen, the Ukrainian nationalists never got much support from the Ukrainian masses.

                  To Cover Up Their Nazi Past
                  Making noise about the famine also helps to cover up the nationalists' own dirty past. Ukrainian nationalists' support for Hitler has long held them back. The recent trial and deportation of John "Ivan the Terrible" Demyanyuk to Israel for participating in atrocities as a Ukrainian nationalist concentration guard for the Nazis was a serious public relations blow to the nationalist, whose staunch efforts to defend this fascist exposed them. (Last week PBS shows a BBC documentary on how the US government used Nazi war criminals to develop the US space program -- next issue of Challenge-Desafio will run an article about this).

                  The US Department of Justice's "Office of Special Investigations" (OSI) is the body charged with pursuing and prosecuting Nazi war criminals in the US. Naturally, they investigate few and prosecute fewer, since most of these Nazis have worked for the CIA. Still, of only 45 cases the OSI has brought against former Nazis, about one-fourth have been against Ukrainians, including several members of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN). 2.

                  Ukrainian Fascists Useful to US Rulers
                  Before and during WWII, the Ukrainian nationalists made themselves useful to the German Nazis. Since the Nazis' defeat, they've served the US ruling class, mainly in the CIA and Radio Liberty (which broadcasts US propaganda to the USSR).

                  Ukrainians are the largest linguistic minority in the Soviet Union. Separatist feeling among minority groups in the USSR is one of the thin reeds Western bosses lean on to weaken the Soviets.

                  As Frank Wisner, the CIA spymaster who helped to smuggle many Nazis and Nazi collaborators into the US after WWII, wrote in a secret 1951 memo:

                  "Operating independently, the SB [special torture squad of the Nazi-sponsored Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists/Bandera] has upon occasion been more of a headache to American intelligence than a boon. Nevertheless in war-time a highly nationalistic Ukrainian political group with its own security service could conceivably be a great asset ... Luckily the attempt [by some Allied authorities pursuing war criminals] to locate these anti-Soviet Ukrainians was sabotaged by a few far- sighted Americans who warned the persons concerned to go into hiding. 3.

                  Mykola Lebid, whose exploits we have already seen [in Part 3 of this series - ed.], was the head of the terrorist SB. 4.

                  But in order to win Ukrainian-Americans and others to anti- communism, the nationalists have to lie. They must cover up their role in Nazi collaboration; lie about the history of the Ukraine, to exaggerate its independence from Russia; and invent stories about the "horrors" of Soviet control. The film, and Conquest's book, do all of these.

                  Millions of Americans remember and hate Nazism. Most have not swallowed the notion that Stalin was "as bad as Hitler." Americans are still very suspicious of anyone who supported the murderous Nazis for any reason. The Ukrainian nationalists believe that their collaboration with the Nazis will seem more "understandable" only if millions of Ukrainians were deliberately and selectively starved to death by Communist monsters than if it is seen in its true light, as the logical result of elitism, anti-communism, and extreme nationalism.

                  The "Stalin Equals Hitler" Lie and What The Bosses Gain By It
                  Like his other major work, The Great Terror, Conquest's book is an attempt to make the very idea of building a communist society appear illegitimate. In the earlier book Conquest makes the claim that the "purges" of the '30s resulted in the deaths of as many people or more than Hitler's holocaust -- over 20 million. In Harvest of Sorrow, Conquest claims more died of famine and collectivization in the Soviet Union alone than as a result of WWI in all countries put together.

                  The purpose of these fairy tales is to spread the idea that "anything is better than communism." Whatever the horrors of capitalism -- so this tale runs -- the horrors of communism in a single country has exceeded them! Therefore, any attempt to build a classless society is inherently evil, no matter how good it sounds. Any attempt at building a "utopia" will lead inevitably to mass murder -- or so the capitalists would have us believe.

                  Many pro-capitalist groups push the same lie. For example, the Credo of a recently-formed conservative faculty group, "Campus Coalition for Democracy" [1996 note: now called the "National Association of Scholars" - ed.] states that:

                  "...utopian, perfectionist and dogmatic modes of political and social thought inevitably carry within them the seeds of elitism, contempt for the ordinary individual and the embrace of violence as a favored political instrument. Anti-Communism is an eminently respectable intellectual posture... As Susan Sontag recently put it, 'Communism ... is a variant, the most successful variant, of fascism'." 5.

                  These days the idea that Stalin was worse than Hitler is actively promoted to justify fascist anti-communism. According to Reader's Digest editor Eugene Methvin, "Hitler's plus-or- minus 11 million are no match for Stalin's killings; one is tempted to say that Hitler was not even in Stalin's league." 6.

                  A recent article in the New York Times Magazine on the rise of neo-fascism in Europe was critical of recent right-wing apologists for German fascism. The only point on which the Times writer agreed with an apologist for Nazism was that "Stalin arguably killed more people than did Hitler." The German rightist, Ernst Nolte, has recently blamed all of Nazism on the USSR, and has received publicity and support from the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, one of West Germany's major daily newspapers whose editor, Joachim Fest wrote an apologetic biography of Hitler 15 years ago. 7. All these capitalist calumnies rely heavily on phony Conquest-type analysis and phenomenal casualties for them to carry any weight whatsoever. The great value these lies have for the capitalists explains why there is little or no refutation of them in the media. The benefits of the anti-Stalin lies may be summarized:

                  They push the lie that the attempt to build communism was a fraud from the beginning; that any attempt to build a classless society is inherently evil and will lead to mass murder. They hope to convince workers that any attempt to overthrow capitalism, or even question it in a fundamental way, is automatically illegitimate.
                  Capitalists must often resort to fascism, usually to control the working class. Fascism is hard to justify to workers, while millions remember that it was the then-socialist Soviet Union, under Stalin, which led the way in defeating the German Nazis and Italian fascists during WWII.
                  The purveyors of the "Ukrainian famine" myth, like anti- communists in general, wish to convince millions that anything -- including fascism -- is better than communism. This way of thinking gives capitalists the green light to carry out any horror, any atrocity, in the name of a "lesser of two evils."
                  Once US capitalism hid behind the fig-leaf of building democracy and freedom. Increasingly, they no longer pretend even this, and openly defend fascist terror instead. So, Reagan not only supports the contra terrorists in Nicaragua; he likens them to George Washington.

                  The rehabilitation of Ukrainian nationalists is the rehabilitation of fascism itself. This is necessary given the open support by the US of the fascist contras and Salvadoran government in Central America, the South African fascists, the "freedom-fighters" -- read fascist, heroin- smuggling, sexist, anti-Communist guerillas -- in Afghanistan, and many others.

                  Capitalists Use Hitler's "Big Lie" Technique
                  Capitalists know the truth of Hitler's statement in his autobiography, Mein Kampf, that a lie -- but especially an outrageous lie -- will be believed by many and partly believed by most if repeated loudly and often enough:

                  "The size of a lie is a definite factor in causing it to be believed, because the vast majority of a nation are in the depths of their hearts more easily deceived than they are consciously and intentionally bad... They would never credit others with the possibility of such great impudence as the complete reversal of facts ... Something therefore always remains and sticks from the most impudent lie, a fact which all bodies and individuals concerned in the art of lying in this world know only too well, and therefore they stop at nothing to achieve this end."

                  Even if they don't swallow the whole 14.5 million claimed by Conquest, many people will think: "Where there's smoke, there's fire; even if the truth is only half or a quarter as much, communism is unthinkable." So, the bigger the lie, the better for the liar! Finally, the Ukrainian famine story is a weapon in the Cold War against the USSR bosses today. Time and again film and book repeat that today's Soviet leaders have never "acknowledged," much less apologized for, the famine. None of these purposes would be served by an attempt to discover the truth about the collectivization movement. To quote Hitler again:

                  "Propaganda must not serve the truth, especially not insofar as it might bring out something favorable for the opponent."

                  The interests of Conquest and the Ukrainian nationalists, the capitalist bosses -- none of these would be served by an attempt to understand the real reasons for the failure of communism in the Soviet Union. This is the key to the weakness of the research which they carry out with such extensive resources, at such great cost.

                  Notes

                  1. Conquest, Harvest of Sorrow, p. 306; Mace, in Problems of Communism, May-June 1984, p. 39; Mace, Problems of Communism, March-April 1985, p. 136; transcript of film, p. 1. Back.

                  2. Conason, "To Catch a Nazi," Village Voice, Feb. 11, 1986, p. 18. Back.

                  3. Quoted in John Loftus, The Belarus Secret (New York: Knopf, 1982), pp. 102-3. Back.

                  4. On Lebid, see Armstrong, Ukrainian Nationalism, 2nd edition (New York: Columbia Univ. Press, 1963), p. 81-83; Conason; Armstrong, letter to Village Voice, March 25, 1986, p. 6. Back.

                  5. Credo, "Campus Coalition for Democracy", New York, 1982. Back.

                  6. Eugene Methvin, "Hitler and Stalin: 20th Century Superkillers," National Review, May 31, 1985, p. 22. Back.

                  7. Judith Miller, "Erasing the Past: Europe's Amnesia About the Holocaust," New York Times Magazine, November 16, 1986, p. 33. Back.
              • Unsu...
                 

                Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                Wed, September 12, 2007 - 9:36 PM
                As I’ve said in response to Forrest before, Wikipedia is not a source. It is an internet free for-all of “information” where anyone can post. Wikipedia has proven to be interfered by the FBI, CIA, and major U.S. corporations. Much has been written on this lately.

                Corporations delete whole sections like the long-term health problems caused by their cola and write such nonsense as, causes no long-term health problems.

                The simple fact is that in an edit war on Wikipedia, the truth will not prevail. It is the full time the editors from corporations and government agencies that win. The rest of us don't have the time for that crap.
                • Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                  Thu, September 13, 2007 - 12:16 AM
                  Are you arguing that Stalin DIDN'T kill millions of people, because Wikipedia says he DID?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

                    Fri, September 14, 2007 - 11:11 AM
                    That would be funny.

                    I would agree with Steven that Wikipedia is not a credible source on anything controversial, given how anybody can edit it. However, as I earlier listed, there are plenty of experts on all sides of the political spectrum apart from Wikipedia who acknowledge that Stalin was responsible for the deaths of millions, INDEPENDENT of WWII. The only serious question is how many millions. Six million or so, or 20-60 million or so?

                    The idea that he didn't kill millions outside of WWII is just Stalinist propaganda.

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