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What do you think?
Do you think that it was smart for the United Nations League of Nations to basically 'create' the country? The UN basically created it right? And the creation coincided with a massive influx of European Jews with no logical claim on the land they stole. And the creation of a religious state where these native inhabitants of the land have no rights and outside immigrants from Europe come and are given land as long as they are willing to steal it from the natives.
If a people that lived there for eons had their druthers, do you think they would have had their land stolen, been put into concentration camps (using the handy knowledge European Jews learned from their Nazi persecutors), be second-class citizens in their own home, and suffer humiliation daily and even death from a vicious ever-expanding hostile state? Do you think they would live in such conditions if this state had not been created?
What about the European Jewish immigrants? Should the European nations have reined in their persecution of them instead of kicking them out of the land where THEY lived for generations? Why should the people living in what is now Israel have borne the burden of Europe's anti-semitism?
What do you think? Should Israel have ever been created in it's present form? Should the international organizations have put together Israel as they did? Was it an intelligent thing to do from a humanitarian perspective?
If you could go back in time and choose to do the 'right' thing for native people of that region, would you create Israel as it stands today? Would that be the intelligent and right thing to do?
Do you think that it was smart for the United Nations League of Nations to basically 'create' the country? The UN basically created it right? And the creation coincided with a massive influx of European Jews with no logical claim on the land they stole. And the creation of a religious state where these native inhabitants of the land have no rights and outside immigrants from Europe come and are given land as long as they are willing to steal it from the natives.
If a people that lived there for eons had their druthers, do you think they would have had their land stolen, been put into concentration camps (using the handy knowledge European Jews learned from their Nazi persecutors), be second-class citizens in their own home, and suffer humiliation daily and even death from a vicious ever-expanding hostile state? Do you think they would live in such conditions if this state had not been created?
What about the European Jewish immigrants? Should the European nations have reined in their persecution of them instead of kicking them out of the land where THEY lived for generations? Why should the people living in what is now Israel have borne the burden of Europe's anti-semitism?
What do you think? Should Israel have ever been created in it's present form? Should the international organizations have put together Israel as they did? Was it an intelligent thing to do from a humanitarian perspective?
If you could go back in time and choose to do the 'right' thing for native people of that region, would you create Israel as it stands today? Would that be the intelligent and right thing to do?
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Re: Israel Should Never Have Been Created
Fri, June 13, 2008 - 7:07 AMSeconded. All in favor? -
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Re: Israel Should Never Have Been Created
Fri, June 13, 2008 - 4:28 PM
A) I agree that the formation of Israel was not the smartest thing that the UN ever did. Can't unbreak that egg though. C'est la vie.
B) "(using the handy knowledge European Jews learned from their Nazi persecutors)" That's disgusting and if you had the actual ability to feel shame, you would be ashamed of yourself. If you were smart enough to understand that you SHOULD feel shame, you'd surely feel that shame. Must be a genetic thing.
C) "been put into concentration camps" Yes, like the ones that were created by Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon? Those ones? That must be what you mean, because Israel had no ability to put ANY of the refugees into camps in any of these countries. So.......if Israel didn't do it.......who did?
D) Your intent here was to put in a WHOLE THREAD the words in my mouth that you wished that you could do in that thread about Iraq. You on one hand behaved far more intelligently than I believed that you had it in you, and then completely unsurprisingly transferred that nonsense to this thread because you were unable to not behave so stupidly. I did not have this ulterior motive that you're suggesting. You are characteristically wrong.
E) "Should the European nations have reined in their persecution of them instead of kicking them out of the land where THEY lived for generations?" That was rhetorical, right?
F) "Should Israel have ever been created in it's present form?" I believe that the UN made a number of critical errors to say the least.
G) "Was it an intelligent thing to do from a humanitarian perspective?" Obviously not.
H) "If you could go back in time and choose to do the 'right' thing for native people of that region, would you create Israel as it stands today?" No.
I) "Would that be the intelligent and right thing to do?" No.
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Re: Israel Should Never Have Been Created
Fri, June 13, 2008 - 7:26 AMheh, touche'. -
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Re: Israel Should Never Have Been Created
Fri, June 13, 2008 - 7:38 AMcDub, i agree completely...only because i have lived in the region and have had personal experience with the pain and suffering this occupation has created...
60 years later, it's still a war zone...the Israeli government, like the US governement has this disgusting superiority complex...no one has the right to STEAL a land from anyone especially in modern times...
aren't we SUPPOSED to be more civilized? -
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Re: Israel Should Never Have Been Created
Fri, June 13, 2008 - 4:56 PM<cDub, i agree completely...only because i have lived in the region and have had personal experience with the pain and suffering this occupation has created...>
A) The creation of Israel was NOTHING compared to the "pain and suffering" the the wars forced upon Israel have created. If these countries did not stupidly and fruitlessly attack Israel so many times, there'd not be the problem that there is today. But, I doubt that you're knowledgeable or honest enough to recognize this fact.
B) I find someone that on one hand feels so bad about what has befallen the non-Jews of this region, but on the other rationalizes the reign of the rulers there that allow things like 'honor killings' to be LEGAL to be a laughable reflection of how your bias affects your decision making.
<60 years later, it's still a war zone...>
Yes, because these idiots continue to ATTACK ISRAEL. Remind me Tam, when's the last time that Israel had conflict with Egypt or Jordan? I mean, I forget...when was the last time? Oh, right................in the 80's. Before these countries chose to make PEACE with Israel.
Gee.......what's the difference between the two? Can you divine that difference without a psychic and a book with big letters?
<no one has the right to STEAL a land from anyone especially in modern times...>
True.
<aren't we SUPPOSED to be more civilized?>
Tell that to Hamas.
Israel is there. Deal. They've whipped asses for 60 years and if those in the region want to keep it going, they'll continue to whip ass for another 60.
<not good enough for you? how about the U.N. giving israel a tiny , tiny state. but arabs, a completely failed people (in the modern age) can't deal with a successful people in their midst.>
How it must suck for all of you to be schooled by Seth. While I am very glad that Israel is there today (just as many Iraqis are glad that there's an Iraq), this was not the smartest thing that the UN ever did as we look back in time. But, it's time for those in that region to recognize - 60 years later (some people take longer to think through an issue than others) - that Israel is there, it's not going anywhere, and Israel will kick their ass as many times as they ask for their asses to be kicked. If they don't want to get their asses kicked, they simply have to stop asking for it.
<If you're going to say that colonial powers carving up states is wrong, then it's wrong in all cases.>
Well, I'd have to say, it's worse carving up Muslim lands for Muslims and carving up Muslim lands for Jews... There's a big difference there. What was a geographic region called "Palestine" was stretching from Egypt to Lebanon and into Syria and Jordan. I don't see all these people getting all up in arms that Jordan and Egypt carved out much of what was this region called Palestine - they must not know this fact...that's the only solution that I can figure that they choose not to complain so vociferously about how the Jordanians, the Egyptians, the Lebanese and the Syrians also "stole" "Palestine".
<But in the context of carving up states, I see nothing wrong with designing the partitions such that oppressed groups can finally have some freedom and independence.>
I agree. Thus - it was stupid to create the current country of Iraq.
<The problem isn't so much with Israel, as it with Muslims who reject the idea of Jews having real freedom and independence. Jews have always lived in the Middle East - for 3000 years. Muslim aggression against a Jewish state just demonstrates the need for the country.>
On one hand, yes - the Muslims need to just deal with the fact that Israel is there. It's stupid not to. On the other, while Jews HAVE been there for 3K years, they were always the grand minority, right? To create a state for them at the expense of so many of the OTHER people, the MAJORITY that have lived there for 3K years also? Not the smartest thing. Then again - if the wars did not happen against Israel, then Israel would be MUCH smaller, and if all those people did not leave on their own? Well, there's be a lot more Muslims in Israel.
<But whats the way forward?>
To admit that America is here, and that the Native Americans will not get the land back. The Mexicans will not get the SW back. The Muslims will not get Israel back. Right?
<In the case of Israel we can stop pouring weapons and money into a powerderkeg and letting the Israelis and Palestinians create their own settlement.>
Right, the result being the slaughter of all the Jews there. Sorry, bub. Ain't a'gonna happen. You won't get your wish.
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Re: Israel Should Never Have Been Created
Fri, June 13, 2008 - 7:40 AMgood one cDub..:)
But i do find discussing what should have never happened rather silly..
Important:
1.What did happen?
2. What should we do now?
The rest is bogus..
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Re: Israel Should Never Have Been Created
Fri, June 13, 2008 - 7:54 AMThe important thing is to show that Israel has been an extension of western imperialism from even before it's official founding as a nation.
Zionists were trying to deal with a very real problem - virulent, murderous anti-Semitism. But the "solution" of creating a Jewish State in Palestine was a very bad idea - and one of the reasons it was a bad idea is that this Jewish State ended up being nothing more than a colonial outpost for the very people (European Christians) who had been the perpetrators of violence against Jews for century after century. -
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Re: Israel Should Never Have Been Created
Fri, June 13, 2008 - 8:25 AMyou're all a bunch of anti-semites.
israel's "clain" to the land? how baout: it was there's 2000 years ago? how about, they actually owned the land in the late 1800s, buying up parcels of it?
not good enough for you? how about the U.N. giving israel a tiny , tiny state. but arabs, a completely failed people (in the modern age) can't deal with a successful people in their midst.
motherfucking anti-semites. you sicken me. nothing better to do than trash a fellow democracy? but you're bad boy "OBAMA", the prophet himself is going to 'make it right' to the sick palestinians who only know from violence? you all suck!
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Re: Israel Should Never Have Been Created
Fri, June 13, 2008 - 2:12 PMcDub:
> Do you think that it was smart for the United Nations League of Nations to basically 'create' the country? The UN basically created it right?
Let's put it in a bit more context.
The Western powers were breaking up the Ottoman Empire into a bunch of little states.
Should have they been doing that? Maybe so, probably not.
Should have Syria been created? Jordan? Iraq? Sudan?
If you're going to say that colonial powers carving up states is wrong, then it's wrong in all cases.
But in the context of carving up states, I see nothing wrong with designing the partitions such that oppressed groups can finally have some freedom and independence. It actually seems like the _right_ thing to do.
The problem isn't so much with Israel, as it with Muslims who reject the idea of Jews having real freedom and independence. Jews have always lived in the Middle East - for 3000 years. Muslim aggression against a Jewish state just demonstrates the need for the country. -
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Re: Israel Should Never Have Been Created
Fri, June 13, 2008 - 2:17 PMThe point is Adam, if we want to, we can go around and say that almost any nation on earth "shouldn't exist". We can point out who was bereaved by each state's creation, which ethnic and religious and tribal groups got screwed, etc. Shit the United States probably "shouldn't exist" if you ask the groups who its land was stolen from right.
But whats the way forward? Well, it seem to me we should not, as citizens of an imperial power, be advocating more screwing around with people's lives from the outside. These groups should be allowed the opportunity to negotiate and even to fight out whatever their preferred solution is. More imposition of outside power is only going to screw things up more.
In the case of Israel we can stop pouring weapons and money into a powerderkeg and letting the Israelis and Palestinians create their own settlement. -
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Re: Israel Should Never Have Been Created
Fri, June 13, 2008 - 6:56 PMcDub:
> The point is Adam, if we want to, we can go around and say that almost any nation on earth "shouldn't exist".
Yes, and why single out Israel?
> But whats the way forward?
If that's what you want to talk about, then why are you asking about the past?
Seriously. If what's important, is where we take things from here, then why would you even created this whole anti-Israel thread?
> In the case of Israel we can stop pouring weapons and money into a powerderkeg and letting the Israelis and Palestinians create their own settlement.
I disagree. A weak and desperate Israel is far more likely to commit real atrocities, then a strong and powerful Israel. I think the US pulling out it's support would just lead to a disaster of epic proportions.
But I do think that the US should start making some basic conditions on it's support of Israel. You get $0, so long as you're continuing to expand settlements in the West Bank.
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Re: Israel Should Never Have Been Created
Fri, June 13, 2008 - 4:31 PMAnd white people stole Native American land. Are you willing to give up any property rights you have to Native Americans?
Water under the bridge -
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Re: Israel Should Never Have Been Created
Fri, June 13, 2008 - 5:00 PMYes I am. I propose all stolen territory be reverted to its rightful owners the native people of the Americas. All descendents of Europeans that stole native property, land, etc., should have no rights to the land. Let them rent from their new Indian overlords. -
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Re: Israel Should Never Have Been Created
Fri, June 13, 2008 - 5:09 PMWhat about the people who were upsurpted by these "native people", and do you consider the Neanderthal as an individual with rights? -
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Re: Israel Should Never Have Been Created
Fri, June 13, 2008 - 5:17 PMThere can probably be a loose formula whereby each previous generation's rights are less weighted than each successive generation's rights. So maybe we end up with say Ted Turner, largest private landlord in the nation, giving up 1/2 of his land to natives, maybe 3/4 I would guess.
Neanderthals, like all living beings, have rights. The European model only recognizes the human owner of property to have rights whereas the natives used more of a shared-resource approach. Until you anglos give up on your shared assumption that you are superior to other people and living beings, its gonna be a fight fucker. -
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Re: Israel Should Never Have Been Created
Fri, June 13, 2008 - 5:31 PM"Neanderthals, like all living beings, have rights."
The Neanderthals never had a chance to evolve, due to the aggressive nature of the "native inhabitants" of Europe. To exclude them from your plan would only reward and promote genocide
"Until you anglos give up on your shared assumption that you are superior to other people and living beings, its gonna be a fight fucker."
"In Botswana the Bushmen, or San, face destruction as a separate ethnic group.
President Festus Mogae once described them as 'Stone Age creatures' for whom there was no place in the modern world, and the Botswana Government is chasing them off their traditional hunting-lands.
Diamonds, the curse of modern Africa, have been discovered there.
But when I travelled to the distant north-east of Namibia, bordering Botswana, I found conditions there rather better.
Not that the San are entirely safe - an Australian mining company thinks it has found diamonds under Tsumkwe East, the area where the Bushmen have found their safest sanctuary in Namibia.
But at present they are able to live and hunt in their traditional ways, after a century of being hunted and forcibly removed, first by German colonists, and then by the apartheid regime in South Africa. "
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2195640.stm
Interesting
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Re: Israel Should Never Have Been Created
Fri, June 13, 2008 - 5:17 PM<Yes I am. I propose all stolen territory be reverted to its rightful owners the native people of the Americas. All descendents of Europeans that stole native property, land, etc., should have no rights to the land. Let them rent from their new Indian overlords.>
why? would the Indians have made america better? they wouldn't have. they didn't have the educational skills.
why should we give it back--to become LESS of a country?
why should palestinians get "Israel" back? would they make the region better? no they wouldn't. how do i know? israel "gave back" gaza, which they had made into a nice place. they didn;'t tear anything down. 7000 families left. and the palestinians turned it to shit -- as they do everything. but they should have "israel"?
think, cdub, next time you you get all righteous.
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Re: Israel Should Never Have Been Created
Fri, June 13, 2008 - 8:29 PM<Yes I am. I propose all stolen territory be reverted to its rightful owners the native people of the Americas. All descendents of Europeans that stole native property, land, etc., should have no rights to the land. Let them rent from their new Indian overlords.>
I'm glad that you value reflexive action over reality. At least we all know that this is how you think.
<Yes, and why single out Israel?>
Because bias seems to be an impossible thing for some people to think reasonably through.
<Seriously. If what's important, is where we take things from here, then why would you even created this whole anti-Israel thread?>
Because these people REACT, they don't THINK.
<But I do think that the US should start making some basic conditions on it's support of Israel. You get $0, so long as you're continuing to expand settlements in the West Bank.>
I agree.
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Re: Israel Should Never Have Been Created
Sat, June 14, 2008 - 10:18 AMthis is a topic, to think about
US look to be the Israel slave
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Re: Israel Should Never Have Been Created
Sun, June 15, 2008 - 4:00 AMA) I agree that the formation of Israel was not the smartest thing that the UN ever did. Can't unbreak that egg though. C'est la vie.
well said. I also agree, however I believe what can be done is adhere to strict borders that empower those more who disagree rather than piss them off by bargaining for more free handouts of land at another's expense.
<That's disgusting and if you had the actual ability to feel shame, you would be ashamed of yourself.>
You know what is disgusting?
Saying one has a right because of UN resolution 181, ignoring the borders in UN resolution 181, and using force to bargain for more land at the expense of the American taxpayer. However, some have no shame.
You know people can concentrate in Gaza real hard, and it will not feel like they are camped in a prison. NOT!
www.irancartoon.ir/gallery/...rison.jpg
Humanity Israeli style:
www.redress.cc/cms-images...a_06010.jpg
The problem is Israel has learned from the worst rather than the best. Many destructive ideologies of violence, supremacy, and difference fuel the conflict, on both sides. Neither side as a whole is interested in laying forth the olive branch, it is just potheads and gays who support peace, and other's of course. But the majority of the people support SHIT!
Israel learned from the EVIL APARTHEID regime of South Africa that they can wait it out, and bargain for more than is deserved by saying we will be displaced, we have been born here, blah blah blah... But UN resolution gave US the right to Fuck people over........jut don't mind the borders. We want the green line.
The only thing I want out of those two stupid groups of uncivilized bastards is the Green Mile:
imagecache2.allposters.com/imag...s.jpg
unless there is green coke, then I'll take a green line
Who do you blame the people who occupied and settled people on other's land, or those that want people off their land?
Israel has continually put the blame on the people fighting for their land back, and refuses to take responsibility for asinine action. Arabs also refuse to stop acting asinine. The problem is "FECES OF DEATH" Two groups of people who are full of shit, and believe that killing people is more useful than killing poverty.
