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Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Face Penalties
The Associated Press
Friday 24 August 2007
Cases show fraud exposers have been vilified, fired, or detained for weeks.
One after another, the men and women who have stepped forward to report corruption in the massive effort to rebuild Iraq have been vilified, fired and demoted.
Or worse.
For daring to report illegal arms sales, Navy veteran Donald Vance says he was imprisoned by the American military in a security compound outside Baghdad and subjected to harsh interrogation methods.
There were times, huddled on the floor in solitary confinement with that head-banging music blaring dawn to dusk and interrogators yelling the same questions over and over, that Vance began to wish he had just kept his mouth shut.
He had thought he was doing a good and noble thing when he started telling the FBI about the guns and the land mines and the rocket-launchers — all of them being sold for cash, no receipts necessary, he said. He told a federal agent the buyers were Iraqi insurgents, American soldiers, State Department workers, and Iraqi embassy and ministry employees.
The seller, he claimed, was the Iraqi-owned company he worked for, Shield Group Security Co.
"It was a Wal-Mart for guns," he says. "It was all illegal and everyone knew it."
So Vance says he blew the whistle, supplying photos and documents and other intelligence to an FBI agent in his hometown of Chicago because he didn't know whom to trust in Iraq.
For his trouble, he says, he got 97 days in Camp Cropper, an American military prison outside Baghdad that once held Saddam Hussein, and he was classified a security detainee.
Also held was colleague Nathan Ertel, who helped Vance gather evidence documenting the sales, according to a federal lawsuit both have filed in Chicago, alleging they were illegally imprisoned and subjected to physical and mental interrogation tactics "reserved for terrorists and so-called enemy combatants."
No Noble Outcomes
Corruption has long plagued Iraq reconstruction. Hundreds of projects may never be finished, including repairs to the country's oil pipelines and electricity system. Congress gave more than $30 billion to rebuild Iraq, and at least $8.8 billion of it has disappeared, according to a government reconstruction audit.
Despite this staggering mess, there are no noble outcomes for those who have blown the whistle, according to a review of such cases by The Associated Press.
"If you do it, you will be destroyed," said William Weaver, professor of political science at the University of Texas-El Paso and senior advisor to the National Security Whistleblowers Coalition.
"Reconstruction is so rife with corruption. Sometimes people ask me, 'Should I do this?' And my answer is no. If they're married, they'll lose their family. They will lose their jobs. They will lose everything," Weaver said.
They have been fired or demoted, shunned by colleagues, and denied government support in whistleblower lawsuits filed against contracting firms.
"The only way we can find out what is going on is for someone to come forward and let us know," said Beth Daley of the Project on Government Oversight, an independent, nonprofit group that investigates corruption. "But when they do, the weight of the government comes down on them. The message is, 'Don't blow the whistle or we'll make your life hell.'
"It's heartbreaking," Daley said. "There is an even greater need for whistleblowers now. But they are made into public martyrs. It's a disgrace. Their lives get ruined."
One Whistleblower Demoted
Bunnatine "Bunny" Greenhouse knows this only too well. As the highest-ranking civilian contracting officer in the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, she testified before a congressional committee in 2005 that she found widespread fraud in multibillion-dollar rebuilding contracts awarded to former Halliburton subsidiary KBR.
Soon after, Greenhouse was demoted. She now sits in a tiny cubicle in a different department with very little to do and no decision-making authority, at the end of an otherwise exemplary 20-year career.
People she has known for years no longer speak to her.
"It's just amazing how we say we want to remove fraud from our government, then we gag people who are just trying to stand up and do the right thing," she says.
In her demotion, her supervisors said she was performing poorly. "They just wanted to get rid of me," she says softly. The Army Corps of Engineers denies her claims.
"You just don't have happy endings," said Weaver. "She was a wonderful example of a federal employee. They just completely creamed her. In the end, no one followed up, no one cared."
No Regrets
But Greenhouse regrets nothing. "I have the courage to say what needs to be said. I paid the price," she says.
Then there is Robert Isakson, who filed a whistleblower suit against contractor Custer Battles in 2004, alleging the company — with which he was briefly associated — bilked the U.S. government out of tens of millions of dollars by filing fake invoices and padding other bills for reconstruction work.
He and his co-plaintiff, William Baldwin, a former employee fired by the firm, doggedly pursued the suit for two years, gathering evidence on their own and flying overseas to obtain more information from witnesses. Eventually, a federal jury agreed with them and awarded a $10 million judgment against the now-defunct firm, which had denied all wrongdoing.
It was the first civil verdict for Iraq reconstruction fraud.
But in 2006, U.S. District Judge T.S. Ellis III overturned the jury award. He said Isakson and Baldwin failed to prove that the Coalition Provisional Authority, the U.S.-backed occupier of Iraq for 14 months, was part of the U.S. government.
Not a single Iraq whistleblower suit has gone to trial since.
"It's a sad, heartbreaking comment on the system," said Isakson, a former FBI agent who owns an international contracting company based in Alabama. "I tried to help the government, and the government didn't seem to care."
US Shows Little Support?
One way to blow the whistle is to file a "qui tam" lawsuit (taken from the Latin phrase "he who sues for the king, as well as for himself") under the federal False Claims Act.
Signed by Abraham Lincoln in response to military contractors selling defective products to the Union Army, the act allows private citizens to sue on the government's behalf.
The government has the option to sign on, with all plaintiffs receiving a percentage of monetary damages, which are tripled in these suits.
It can be a straightforward and effective way to recoup federal funds lost to fraud. In the past, the Justice Department has joined several such cases and won. They included instances of Medicare and Medicaid overbilling, and padded invoices from domestic contractors.
But the government has not joined a single quit tam suit alleging Iraq reconstruction abuse, estimated in the tens of millions. At least a dozen have been filed since 2004.
"It taints these cases," said attorney Alan Grayson, who filed the Custer Battles suit and several others like it. "If the government won't sign on, then it can't be a very good case — that's the effect it has on judges."
The Justice Department declined comment.
Placed Under Guard, Kept in Seclusion
Most of the lawsuits are brought by former employees of giant firms. Some plaintiffs have testified before members of Congress, providing examples of fraud they say they witnessed and the retaliation they experienced after speaking up.
Julie McBride testified last year that as a "morale, welfare and recreation coordinator" at Camp Fallujah, she saw KBR exaggerate costs by double- and triple-counting the number of soldiers who used recreational facilities.
She also said the company took supplies destined for a Super Bowl party for U.S. troops and instead used them to stage a celebration for themselves.
"After I voiced my concerns about what I believed to be accounting fraud, Halliburton placed me under guard and kept me in seclusion," she told the committee. "My property was searched, and I was specifically told that I was not allowed to speak to any member of the U.S. military. I remained under guard until I was flown out of the country."
Halliburton and KBR denied her testimony.
She also has filed a whistleblower suit. The Justice Department has said it would not join the action. But last month, a federal judge refused a motion by KBR to dismiss the lawsuit.
"I Thought I Was Among Friends"
Donald Vance, the contractor and Navy veteran detained in Iraq after he blew the whistle on his company's weapons sales, says he has stopped talking to the federal government.
Navy Capt. John Fleming, a spokesman for U.S. detention operations in Iraq, confirmed the detentions but said he could provide no further details because of the lawsuit.
According to their suit, Vance and Ertel gathered photographs and documents, which Vance fed to Chicago FBI agent Travis Carlisle for six months beginning in October 2005. Carlisle, reached by phone at Chicago's FBI field office, declined comment. An agency spokesman also would not comment.
The Iraqi company has since disbanded, according the suit.
Vance said things went terribly wrong in April 2006, when he and Ertel were stripped of their security passes and confined to the company compound.
Panicking, Vance said, he called the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad, where hostage experts got on the phone and told him "you're about to be kidnapped. Lock yourself in a room with all the weapons you can get your hands on."'
The military sent a Special Forces team to rescue them, Vance said, and the two men showed the soldiers where the weapons caches were stored. At the embassy, the men were debriefed and allowed to sleep for a few hours. "I thought I was among friends," Vance said.
An Unspoken Baghdad Rule
The men said they were cuffed and hooded and driven to Camp Cropper, where Vance was held for nearly three months and his colleague for a little more than a month. Eventually, their jailers said they were being held as security internees because their employer was suspected of selling weapons to terrorists and insurgents, the lawsuit said.
The prisoners said they repeatedly told interrogators to contact Carlisle in Chicago. "One set of interrogators told us that Travis Carlisle doesn't exist. Then some others would say, 'He says he doesn't know who you are,"' Vance said.
Released first was Ertel, who has returned to work in Iraq for a different company. Vance said he has never learned why he was held longer. His own interrogations, he said, seemed focused on why he reported his information to someone outside Iraq.
And then one day, without explanation, he was released.
"They drove me to Baghdad International Airport and dumped me," he said.
When he got home, he decided to never call the FBI again. He called a lawyer, instead.
"There's an unspoken rule in Baghdad," he said. "Don't snitch on people and don't burn bridges."
For doing both, Vance said, he paid with 97 days of his life.
The Associated Press
Friday 24 August 2007
Cases show fraud exposers have been vilified, fired, or detained for weeks.
One after another, the men and women who have stepped forward to report corruption in the massive effort to rebuild Iraq have been vilified, fired and demoted.
Or worse.
For daring to report illegal arms sales, Navy veteran Donald Vance says he was imprisoned by the American military in a security compound outside Baghdad and subjected to harsh interrogation methods.
There were times, huddled on the floor in solitary confinement with that head-banging music blaring dawn to dusk and interrogators yelling the same questions over and over, that Vance began to wish he had just kept his mouth shut.
He had thought he was doing a good and noble thing when he started telling the FBI about the guns and the land mines and the rocket-launchers — all of them being sold for cash, no receipts necessary, he said. He told a federal agent the buyers were Iraqi insurgents, American soldiers, State Department workers, and Iraqi embassy and ministry employees.
The seller, he claimed, was the Iraqi-owned company he worked for, Shield Group Security Co.
"It was a Wal-Mart for guns," he says. "It was all illegal and everyone knew it."
So Vance says he blew the whistle, supplying photos and documents and other intelligence to an FBI agent in his hometown of Chicago because he didn't know whom to trust in Iraq.
For his trouble, he says, he got 97 days in Camp Cropper, an American military prison outside Baghdad that once held Saddam Hussein, and he was classified a security detainee.
Also held was colleague Nathan Ertel, who helped Vance gather evidence documenting the sales, according to a federal lawsuit both have filed in Chicago, alleging they were illegally imprisoned and subjected to physical and mental interrogation tactics "reserved for terrorists and so-called enemy combatants."
No Noble Outcomes
Corruption has long plagued Iraq reconstruction. Hundreds of projects may never be finished, including repairs to the country's oil pipelines and electricity system. Congress gave more than $30 billion to rebuild Iraq, and at least $8.8 billion of it has disappeared, according to a government reconstruction audit.
Despite this staggering mess, there are no noble outcomes for those who have blown the whistle, according to a review of such cases by The Associated Press.
"If you do it, you will be destroyed," said William Weaver, professor of political science at the University of Texas-El Paso and senior advisor to the National Security Whistleblowers Coalition.
"Reconstruction is so rife with corruption. Sometimes people ask me, 'Should I do this?' And my answer is no. If they're married, they'll lose their family. They will lose their jobs. They will lose everything," Weaver said.
They have been fired or demoted, shunned by colleagues, and denied government support in whistleblower lawsuits filed against contracting firms.
"The only way we can find out what is going on is for someone to come forward and let us know," said Beth Daley of the Project on Government Oversight, an independent, nonprofit group that investigates corruption. "But when they do, the weight of the government comes down on them. The message is, 'Don't blow the whistle or we'll make your life hell.'
"It's heartbreaking," Daley said. "There is an even greater need for whistleblowers now. But they are made into public martyrs. It's a disgrace. Their lives get ruined."
One Whistleblower Demoted
Bunnatine "Bunny" Greenhouse knows this only too well. As the highest-ranking civilian contracting officer in the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, she testified before a congressional committee in 2005 that she found widespread fraud in multibillion-dollar rebuilding contracts awarded to former Halliburton subsidiary KBR.
Soon after, Greenhouse was demoted. She now sits in a tiny cubicle in a different department with very little to do and no decision-making authority, at the end of an otherwise exemplary 20-year career.
People she has known for years no longer speak to her.
"It's just amazing how we say we want to remove fraud from our government, then we gag people who are just trying to stand up and do the right thing," she says.
In her demotion, her supervisors said she was performing poorly. "They just wanted to get rid of me," she says softly. The Army Corps of Engineers denies her claims.
"You just don't have happy endings," said Weaver. "She was a wonderful example of a federal employee. They just completely creamed her. In the end, no one followed up, no one cared."
No Regrets
But Greenhouse regrets nothing. "I have the courage to say what needs to be said. I paid the price," she says.
Then there is Robert Isakson, who filed a whistleblower suit against contractor Custer Battles in 2004, alleging the company — with which he was briefly associated — bilked the U.S. government out of tens of millions of dollars by filing fake invoices and padding other bills for reconstruction work.
He and his co-plaintiff, William Baldwin, a former employee fired by the firm, doggedly pursued the suit for two years, gathering evidence on their own and flying overseas to obtain more information from witnesses. Eventually, a federal jury agreed with them and awarded a $10 million judgment against the now-defunct firm, which had denied all wrongdoing.
It was the first civil verdict for Iraq reconstruction fraud.
But in 2006, U.S. District Judge T.S. Ellis III overturned the jury award. He said Isakson and Baldwin failed to prove that the Coalition Provisional Authority, the U.S.-backed occupier of Iraq for 14 months, was part of the U.S. government.
Not a single Iraq whistleblower suit has gone to trial since.
"It's a sad, heartbreaking comment on the system," said Isakson, a former FBI agent who owns an international contracting company based in Alabama. "I tried to help the government, and the government didn't seem to care."
US Shows Little Support?
One way to blow the whistle is to file a "qui tam" lawsuit (taken from the Latin phrase "he who sues for the king, as well as for himself") under the federal False Claims Act.
Signed by Abraham Lincoln in response to military contractors selling defective products to the Union Army, the act allows private citizens to sue on the government's behalf.
The government has the option to sign on, with all plaintiffs receiving a percentage of monetary damages, which are tripled in these suits.
It can be a straightforward and effective way to recoup federal funds lost to fraud. In the past, the Justice Department has joined several such cases and won. They included instances of Medicare and Medicaid overbilling, and padded invoices from domestic contractors.
But the government has not joined a single quit tam suit alleging Iraq reconstruction abuse, estimated in the tens of millions. At least a dozen have been filed since 2004.
"It taints these cases," said attorney Alan Grayson, who filed the Custer Battles suit and several others like it. "If the government won't sign on, then it can't be a very good case — that's the effect it has on judges."
The Justice Department declined comment.
Placed Under Guard, Kept in Seclusion
Most of the lawsuits are brought by former employees of giant firms. Some plaintiffs have testified before members of Congress, providing examples of fraud they say they witnessed and the retaliation they experienced after speaking up.
Julie McBride testified last year that as a "morale, welfare and recreation coordinator" at Camp Fallujah, she saw KBR exaggerate costs by double- and triple-counting the number of soldiers who used recreational facilities.
She also said the company took supplies destined for a Super Bowl party for U.S. troops and instead used them to stage a celebration for themselves.
"After I voiced my concerns about what I believed to be accounting fraud, Halliburton placed me under guard and kept me in seclusion," she told the committee. "My property was searched, and I was specifically told that I was not allowed to speak to any member of the U.S. military. I remained under guard until I was flown out of the country."
Halliburton and KBR denied her testimony.
She also has filed a whistleblower suit. The Justice Department has said it would not join the action. But last month, a federal judge refused a motion by KBR to dismiss the lawsuit.
"I Thought I Was Among Friends"
Donald Vance, the contractor and Navy veteran detained in Iraq after he blew the whistle on his company's weapons sales, says he has stopped talking to the federal government.
Navy Capt. John Fleming, a spokesman for U.S. detention operations in Iraq, confirmed the detentions but said he could provide no further details because of the lawsuit.
According to their suit, Vance and Ertel gathered photographs and documents, which Vance fed to Chicago FBI agent Travis Carlisle for six months beginning in October 2005. Carlisle, reached by phone at Chicago's FBI field office, declined comment. An agency spokesman also would not comment.
The Iraqi company has since disbanded, according the suit.
Vance said things went terribly wrong in April 2006, when he and Ertel were stripped of their security passes and confined to the company compound.
Panicking, Vance said, he called the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad, where hostage experts got on the phone and told him "you're about to be kidnapped. Lock yourself in a room with all the weapons you can get your hands on."'
The military sent a Special Forces team to rescue them, Vance said, and the two men showed the soldiers where the weapons caches were stored. At the embassy, the men were debriefed and allowed to sleep for a few hours. "I thought I was among friends," Vance said.
An Unspoken Baghdad Rule
The men said they were cuffed and hooded and driven to Camp Cropper, where Vance was held for nearly three months and his colleague for a little more than a month. Eventually, their jailers said they were being held as security internees because their employer was suspected of selling weapons to terrorists and insurgents, the lawsuit said.
The prisoners said they repeatedly told interrogators to contact Carlisle in Chicago. "One set of interrogators told us that Travis Carlisle doesn't exist. Then some others would say, 'He says he doesn't know who you are,"' Vance said.
Released first was Ertel, who has returned to work in Iraq for a different company. Vance said he has never learned why he was held longer. His own interrogations, he said, seemed focused on why he reported his information to someone outside Iraq.
And then one day, without explanation, he was released.
"They drove me to Baghdad International Airport and dumped me," he said.
When he got home, he decided to never call the FBI again. He called a lawyer, instead.
"There's an unspoken rule in Baghdad," he said. "Don't snitch on people and don't burn bridges."
For doing both, Vance said, he paid with 97 days of his life.
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sat, August 25, 2007 - 2:14 PMOkay, dammit, BUMP THIS!
Is there no national outrage that decent, upstanding, honest, courageous AMERICAN CITIZENS are now being subjected to illegal detention and torture?
Do the Bush supporters in here think this is okay? Do they think this is good and right?
Any comments?? -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sat, August 25, 2007 - 2:36 PM> Do the Bush supporters in here think this is okay? Do they think this is good and right?
Indeed. C'mon ... where's your rationale for this?
How do you explain this stuff away?
No talking points up on Drudge yet???
Gonna say it's an "isolated incident", or that people were acting off of "bad Intel"? How about mocking those of us who are suspicious of this administration some more?
We know you can do it.
Rik, I'm counting on you! You're 31 years old and have a little money in the bank, so you know everything. C'mon. Run some apologetics by us. -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sat, August 25, 2007 - 2:45 PMthe poor kid who blew the whistle on the abu ghraib scandal can't return to his home town, was blackmailed , was accused to be a traitor and un- american..........
i wonder if he received any help.....if not......this tribe might should start a fund raising for him. -
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Unsu...
Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sat, August 25, 2007 - 3:08 PMIs he in the witness protection program? I think the government had to relocate him. Joe Darby.
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middl...6930197.stm
"After Donald Rumsfeld blew his cover, he was bundled out of Iraq very quickly and lived under armed protection for the first six months."
Could this be considered Treason? -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sat, August 25, 2007 - 3:41 PMCould this be considered Treason?
in my few....abu ghraib was treason......the kid did the only thing honorable.
he should be awarded with any medal the military has, should get full military benefits, should get a pension for the rest of his life and be able to live on it......comfortably .
he deserved it. -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sat, August 25, 2007 - 3:43 PMI think she was asking if what Donald Rumsfeld did was treason. -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sat, August 25, 2007 - 3:45 PMi know. -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sat, August 25, 2007 - 3:52 PM'kay. :) -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sun, August 26, 2007 - 10:54 AMYeah, that's correct. I feel that Rumsfeld committed treason against this soldier who was trying to maintain honor and dignity.
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sun, August 26, 2007 - 11:27 AMFrom Wikipedia:
In law, treason is the crime of disloyalty to one's nation. A person who betrays the nation of their citizenship and/or reneges on an oath of loyalty and in some way willfully cooperates with an enemy, is considered to be a traitor. Oran's Dictionary of the Law (1983) defines treason as: "...[a]...citizen's actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent nation]." In many nations, it is also often considered treason to attempt or conspire to overthrow the government, even if no foreign country is aided or involved by such an endeavour.
In my view, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Rice have been disloyal to the United States, but are not technically guilty of treason. They have undermined the solvency of the U.S., have weakened its military, and have despoiled its environment in order to facilitate profits for a few multinational corporations. They do not act in the interests of the people of the U.S., but instead in the interests of enterprises that operate largely outside the country through tax havens. Doing so, however, does not amount to cooperating with an enemy foreign government.
Outing a whistleblower and even outing a CIA officer (e.g., Valerie Plame) do not necessarily amount to treason. There are statutes, however, that protect whistleblowers and CIA agents which may have been violated. -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sun, August 26, 2007 - 12:27 PM> They do not act in the interests of the people of the U.S., but instead in the interests of enterprises that operate largely outside the country through tax havens.
Sounds about right.
I interpret this and other Bush Inc. actions as conforming in part or in full to the following three aspects listed amongst your definitions:
# disloyalty to one's nation
# a person who betrays the nation of their citizenship and/or reneges on an oath of loyalty
# citizen's actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent nation]
Treason is too soft of a term, all things considered. To properly charge Bush Co with their crimes of never before seen magnitude, an entirely new classification will have to be added, no? I was thinking something like "premeditated grand betrayal of humanity" for starters.
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sun, August 26, 2007 - 1:22 PMAnd here, I'm still waiting for some creative explanation of why or how it somehow advances the World's Glorious and Totally Necessary Fight Against Civilization-Destroying Islamofascism (tm) to (a) steal from the US taxpayers, and (b) destroy and vilify the people who *report* that you're stealing from the US taxpayers.
Rush has nothing to say about this?
How about Ann?
Drudge?
Hannity?
O'Reilly?
I haven't even seen anyone trot out the usual favorite comment one sees from idiot neocon YouTubers, when faced with irrefutable evidence of this administration's utter dishonesty, moral bankruptcy, and utter contempt for the American public, including the suckers who keep voting for them: "It's all been concocted in PhotoShop or something! It's all a lie! Why do you hate America? Clinton/Gore/Kerry/Edwards would have done/will do worse!!"
Just nothing.
Crickets. That's all. -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sun, August 26, 2007 - 1:42 PM"It's all a lie!"
Yeah, that's the only possible defense I can think of. AP is lying. MSNBC is lying:
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20430153/
So far, I have yet to find this story on Fox News. A google search of the domain foxnews.com for Donald Vance returned this:
"Your search - "donald vance" site:foxnews.com - did not match any documents."
As does a search for the same on foxnews.com itself:
"Your search - "donald vance" - did not match any documents.
No pages were found containing ""donald vance"". "
What a surprise.
There can be no justification for this. The complete lack of response from the Bush supporters in here indicates that even they know that. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sun, August 26, 2007 - 8:00 PMBush supporters, we're waiting. Justify this. -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sun, August 26, 2007 - 8:04 PM<<Bush supporters, we're waiting. Justify this.>>
They are busy for awhile, consulting the right-wing online hive-mind sites of the RNC, Coulter and Limbaugh. -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sun, August 26, 2007 - 9:08 PM> consulting the right-wing online hive-mind sites
HEH! Hive-minds, so true.
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Mon, August 27, 2007 - 3:48 AMThis story isn't even *on* the hive-mind sites.
There's no simple snarky dismissal possible; trotting out the usual fulminating bullshit against the Eeeevil Weak Cowardly *Liberals* isn't going to fly here, 'cause this isn't *about* Liberals -- it's about the way the Rightists treat actual principled citizens who are *not* Liberals, who *are* watching out for the interests of US taxpayers.
And if there's no simple snarky dismissal possible, no Swiftboating spin, well, then ... the righty sites just ignore it. If nobody hears about it, it's not news, right? And if it's not news, then it didnt happen, right?
If an Empire falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound?
Again ... guys?? Guys??? C'mon Rik -- I want to know how you explain this away *without* waving your middle finger at the rest of us. Use your *words*, honey! Use your big boy words! Cliff? Arthur? Ron?
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sun, August 26, 2007 - 6:21 PMI used the term multinational corporations. That's not quite accurate. The entities that control American politics, including its foreign, domestic and military policies, are transnational. They install people like Bush who don't enforce national laws against then, they operate outside the constraints of any nation-state, and owe allegiance to nothing other than the almighty buck, translated into whatever foreign currency suits their purposes.
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Unsu...
Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sun, August 26, 2007 - 12:06 AM*logs out, using the middle finger* -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sun, August 26, 2007 - 1:04 AMMiddle finger not withstanding, what's your answer? -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sun, August 26, 2007 - 1:42 AM> Middle finger not withstanding, what's your answer?
That he couldn't possibly produce one if his testicles depended on it.
""Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism -- how passionately I hate them!"
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeeded be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
--Albert Einstein
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sun, August 26, 2007 - 5:55 AM> *logs out, using the middle finger*
Oh, brilliant.
That's all you can say about your Heroes, Rik?
Think it's OK for them to destroy the lives and careers of people who call them -- accurately, we might add ... absolutely accurately -- on even a small fraction of the unethical and evil bullshit they pull? Does this interfere with your childlike/childish magical view of the world?
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sat, August 25, 2007 - 4:07 PMRon? Cliff?
:: crickets :: -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sat, August 25, 2007 - 11:26 PMBump.
Do the Bush supporters in here think this is okay? Do they think this is good and right? -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sat, August 25, 2007 - 11:55 PM<<Do the Bush supporters in here think this is okay? Do they think this is good and right?>>
As Martin Amis says in his latest novel, "House of Meetings": "[W]hen the depths stir like this, when a country sets a course for darkness, it comes to you not as horror but as unreality. Reality weighs nothing, and everything is allowed." -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sun, August 26, 2007 - 3:51 AMSTOP SNITCHING
THUG LIFE!
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sun, August 26, 2007 - 1:18 PMNo good deed ever goes unpunished. Serves him right.
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sun, August 26, 2007 - 6:43 PM
They say hell are for heroes...
and surely it is not for cowards that sits in their comfortable superior chair and rule over others life and make it miserable, rape people, steal their properties, lye, earn money on others misery etcetera -
so dont expect THOSE THAT SUPPORT THAT and profit on it and have their hearts closed up to say "wops thats too bad, were sorry" - they will deny, keep stiring the attention to another direction, change subject, be defensive or aggressive and use rhetoric and tactical manipulations to WHAT EVER to simply get on with ther dirty business..
Hell are these peoples creation and those that fight THAT lost souls are heroes..
So more people need to get whats going on, talk about it so that its not only like 2-3 targets and then the hell are "safe" you know... I know alot of people are reading but not saying anything on tribe, but I hope they speak out to their friends and so on.. there are other channels then those that are controlled by these guys... too bad for them. I wont say Im surprised, but Im glad this was posted and I look forward to more brave people doing the right thing so we can stop corruption and for once in mankinds history actually create a REALLY nice place to hang out in.
It is so yesterday to profit on war... and to abuse and kick ass...
Try changing the tune over there its a fucking boring re-run.
And its ugly, nasty and very un-attractive, plus its illegal. -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Sun, August 26, 2007 - 7:15 PMcontinuing on my other post --->
......and that message goes to all the dirty scumbags all over the world that profits on war.
the thing is - people ARE entertained into apathy and stupidity.. and its the plan.
if noone knows how can anyone have an opinion...
were mostly occupied with our own appearence and pathetic intrigues and gossip anyway to even look up when the reality hit us.
I know "spirituality" are misunderstood and misused through history and present time, but I dont give a shit about what anyone MIGHT think when I say this - things are in constant evolution, and that is why the frekain control-machines try to develope industrial mechanichal manipulation techniques through electromagnetic frequenzis and so on, but BUT - since we evolve, so does our brain, and awareness -
so I dont loose hope, not only are the internet NEVER gonna be controlled, neither are the people OR their interest to get the truth, which makes whats going on a struggle for the dying dinosaurs to stay at the top of the foodchain since they refuse to realize they are a dying breed.. hear the roar, and yes many will die.. we all will some day eventually - but NOTHING, NOOOTHING can stop the Evolution -
that is the rEvolution... a non-violent awareness where we are so intuned with the TRUE conspiracys and manipulations so that there can never be a use or ability to lie and desceive anymore.. so sorry to tell you this war-profiteers, but you didnt calculate on natures ability to go its own way... some people refuse to realise that there is no such thing as flawless plans in crimes.
Theres always a bug somewhere. Try to stop a nature-force. Simply not possible to play God without natures own force hitting back REAL HARD. Surprise, here comes "God" - and shes really pissed off (Mother Nature) Perhaps not this week but we all see the signs of something stronger then mens testosterone driven tanks ruling our lives.. and no I dont think about other military project as weatherwars, laser shit in space and so on - something beyond mens small agenda or war-lust.
Besides this little philosophical blur, I feel sorry for what I read, its a shame and Im discusted by it all.
ps - since were told were only this shell and our lives are empty without this running in the weel trying to chase fortune, fame, sexappeal and items, we are also told we will dye as in "no theres no hope unless you are a good girl as this old beareded man watching your every nasty thought and action - so youd better behave and shoot those that dont obey our VIP-club standards" - but the reality are that we are energy-beeings with human experiences and we are so much more then we can understand, therefore, since we are energy-beeings we cannot ever be destroyed, death is a TRANSFORMATION.
Then what.. when mankind realise this - it will be pointless to fight since we are hardly separated since the differentialities between us are almost not measurable either within genom (DNA) as in this misconception about "races" or other ways we have been divided to fight to conquer.. WHEN more realise this and it is already happening, it is going to be such a transformation on awareness level it will be fantastic.
THIS is also known and therefore the ones knowing this are told they are either spaced out (but it actually are scientific "shit" Im refering too here but how many actually read science here) and then they are as any other truther miscredited, bullied etcetera. Yep its beginning to feel really old this bad cover.
The biggest problem, if one doesnt have patience, are the common mans ability to go into denial, that slows things down., but that is the case with almost everything in mankinds history - it goes slow in the beginning but then people get the grip of things.
Now we have the propaganda mainstream machine that fight to slow it down further - on top of that we have the FEAR of the un-known which triggers aggression against anyone that are on the front line of new discoverys, "yeah lets ridicule them, and then we shut up if we are forced to realise we where the stupid ones"..
until we reach a point when it will become accepted, and considered "normal" - then we will laugh and frown over how lost people where year 2007 and how far beyond their conceptions about things where - just as we "civilized" ones think today looking back in history and on what we call "under-developed countries".
Peace, out ; )
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Mon, August 27, 2007 - 5:04 PMbumpity-bump.
Still no word, guys? No comments on this one at *all* from the Right Side?
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Mon, August 27, 2007 - 5:40 PMNope. Still nothing substantive from the Rechter Flügel. The only things they have said so far are that they guy deserved it (Cliff) and something about a middle digit (Rik). -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Mon, August 27, 2007 - 10:02 PM"Nope. Still nothing substantive from the Rechter Flügel. The only things they have said so far are that they guy deserved it (Cliff) and something about a middle digit (Rik)."
Both obviously meaningless.
Running away, are you? That's because YOU CAN'T JUSTIFY IT. You KNOW that it's unconscionable just like we do, so you just slink into your rank corners and hide. Have a fucking backbone and SAY SOMETHING. -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Mon, August 27, 2007 - 10:24 PMI have never, NEVER been so disgusted by Bush supporters than I am at this very moment by the total lack of meaningful response to these incidents. Do you have no fucking shame? You've been saying for ages that people who thought this kind of treatment would eventually be doled out to good and decent American citizens were merely paranoid, loony lefties with no grip on reality and that no one should ever listen to them. This kind of thing would *never* happen to moral, upstanding, law-abiding American citizens, right? Well, IT FUCKING HAPPENED. Now what do you say about it? Nothing. You should be absolutely appalled by this, but you say NOTHING.
Vomitous cowards, the lot of you. You have, in this one non-action, finally sold whatever of your souls and lost what small amount of credibility you had left. -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 1:19 AMGod, this complete and utter silence from the right on this issue almost make me wish that Seth and Anderson were still in here. Neither of them seemed to have problems with making utterly repugnant comments. And I don't think that anyone could even attempt a defense of these incidents without saying thoroughly repugnant things.
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Mon, August 27, 2007 - 7:35 PM****************Still no word, guys? No comments on this one at *all* from the Right Side? *************
I already said everything that needs to be said. -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 9:01 PM<I already said everything that needs to be said.>
No you did not.
The Reds - such as yourself - purport to be the responsible party, but when this happens all you have to say is "I already said everything that needs to be said"? Really?
If Clinton was in charge, you'd have said the same? If Hillary is in charge and this kind of thing happens, this is all that you'll say? -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Wed, August 29, 2007 - 12:14 AM>> The Reds - such as yourself - purport to be the responsible party, but when this happens all you have to say is "I already said everything that needs to be said"? Really? <<
great. the heady "blue/red" bullshit is back. who would have ever thought that a cable news graphic would have such a significant impact on the dimling vernacular. -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Wed, August 29, 2007 - 1:05 AM
It really bothers you that much, Arthur? Really?
Of all the stupid shit that goes on here, I am simply calling someone a "Red" because writing "Red" over and over is much easier than "Republican".
Of all the things to complain about in thread after thread.......... -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Wed, August 29, 2007 - 1:41 AM>> It really bothers you that much, Arthur? Really? <<
sure. flippant references to some artificial division between the two dominant parties makes you look ignorant.
>> Of all the stupid shit that goes on here, I am simply calling someone a "Red" because writing "Red" over and over is much easier than "Republican". <<
for one, you're parroting a term based on a graphic. the red/blue crap is based on an election where several states were decided by razor thin margins. so the descriptive utility of these labels is nonexistent. it is a term created by some kind of marketing schmuck. the distinction doesn't add any descriptive value. yet thousands of morons are using it. It is offensive to my sensibilities that people like you are so goddamn suggestible. -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Wed, August 29, 2007 - 2:50 AM
Arthur. You are pretty tightly wound, 'eh?
That you'd be so upset that I chose this simple nomenclature as my choice of descriptive term instead of typing "republican" over and over and over really says more about you than about me.
It really bothers you? Really? If someone called me a 'blue', I'd not mind one bit.
It's good to know how thin your skin is. Man, if this kind of shit bothers you, I can only imagine in your real life what kind of things really get you going. Jai yin yin, dude.
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 12:04 AM>> Still no word, guys? No comments on this one at *all* from the Right Side? <<
ah... I see yet another dimling assumes I am a bush supporter. sorry. -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 7:01 AM>>> Still no word, guys? No comments on this one at *all* from the Right Side? <<
> ah... I see yet another dimling assumes I am a bush supporter. sorry.
And so your only comment on this is that "Mary is a dimling"?
Nothin' else you want to say about this situation? -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 5:16 PM>> And so your only comment on this is that "Mary is a dimling"? <<
why not? you obviously expect me to behave and respond in some kind of stereotypical fashion. that isn't really indicative of higher thinking.
>> Nothin' else you want to say about this situation? <<
am I under some kind of obligation to reflexively defend policies and practices that I never supported in the first place problematic? sorry that I don't fit in with your simplistic conservative stereotypes.
I've never been a fan of the managerial practices of the current administration. the bush administration tends to promote and reward based solely on loyalty as opposed to competence. based on my work and life experience that is a recipe for disaster. this thread confirms my beliefs. if I found something wrong or contrary to my beliefs I would comment. otherwise, there is nothing to say.
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Mon, August 27, 2007 - 11:57 PM"The only way we can find out what is going on is for someone to come forward and let us know," said Beth Daley of the Project on Government Oversight, an independent, nonprofit group that investigates corruption. "But when they do, the weight of the government comes down on them. The message is, 'Don't blow the whistle or we'll make your life hell.'
"It's heartbreaking," Daley said. "There is an even greater need for whistleblowers now. But they are made into public martyrs. It's a disgrace. Their lives get ruined."
That is America today..Criminals get rich..Heroes get punished...
Support Lt Watada!
www.thankyoult.org/ -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 12:41 AM
What a NIGHTMARE that America "sell" this "american dream in the land of the FREE" to be freedom and compassion to other countries too... shiver and prepare people all over the world, it starts with the american people and then they will go on and spread this virus cancer killing its own host as it spread death and violence and choking life and limited space.
What the fuck has happened with the glory and liberty? time to lower the flag and demolish the statue of liberty?
Either your own habitants heroes are honoured, nor your fought for values, and those that warn the others whats going on are hunted down, killed and silenced.. it is a living hell.
www.michael-irving.com/world/...on.html
"There are two worlds in conflict. One world has truth and honesty compromised for various reasons. In the other world, truth and honesty are paramount. The Hopi Indians talk of two routes humanity may take at this time: one going nowhere, and the second going to a fruitful life for everyone. As we are seeing today, truth and honest endeavour have almost sunk into obscurity, and at the same time the world is becoming more dangerous.
After the second World War, at a time of possible great promise, the world took a dark turn... power and development of technology became consolidated in the hands of a few people.
In President Eisenhower's retirement speech in 1961, the world was warned:
"We must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes."
Two years later, in 1963, President Kennedy made this startling declaration just 10 days before he was murdered:
"The high office of President has been used to foment a plot to destroy the American's freedom, and before I leave office I must inform the citizen of his plight."
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent
about things that matter" - Martin Luther King, Jr.
"The most courageous act is still to think
for yourself. Aloud." - Coco Chanel
www.michael-irving.com/world/...on.html
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 7:18 AM|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
He had thought he was doing a good and noble thing when he started telling the FBI about the guns and the land mines and the rocket-launchers — all of them being sold for cash, no receipts necessary, he said. He told a federal agent the buyers were Iraqi insurgents, American soldiers, State Department workers, and Iraqi embassy and ministry employees.
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He may have been. He may also have stumbled onto an attempt to infiltrate the enemy, blown the whistle and the cover of US operatives and since then the US military intelligence has been trying to figure out whether he is a double or what - and until they can convince themselves that he is not they won't let up.
It's also possible that he is indeed a double and deliberately spoiled an infiltration operation.
However nothing like that could occur to the posters here because it is their political imperative that they always assume the worst all the time about anything the USA does.
In this instance they are assuming based on little more than an article in a paper. Always a grand source of complete information -lol.
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 11:31 AMNot bad, bear. Although there was nothing like that even hinted at as a possibility in that article, so you're just pulling that *completely* out of your ass, as you chastise so many on the left of doing so often. But you did manage to attempt a defense of these actions without saying thoroughly repugnant things (except for speaking badly of those who are *not* attempting to pull a totally unfounded fantasy defense out of their asses).
However, I would add that your proposed scenario still does not justify using this kind of treatment on American citizens. I'm assuming you disagree. Please correct me if I'm wrong. -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 11:48 AMActually, I should have used stronger wording with that. I haven't finished my coffee yet. Let me try again:
However, your proposed scenario still IN NO WAY justifies using this kind of treatment on American citizens. The American people have apparently accepted that it's okay for the U.S. to torture foreigners. Are we now expected to accept that it's okay for the U.S. to torture its OWN CITIZENS?
That's not just a slippery slope. It's a FRICTIONLESS slope. -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 4:55 PMNow, Cliff, tell me: Do you think it's acceptable for the U.S. to torture its own citizens?
Anyone else?
Anyone have a *non*-fantasy defense for these incidents?
Anyone else in here think that it's okay for the U.S. to torture its own citizens?
At least Cliff has shown *some* balls here. Toughen up, righties. If you're going to continue to exalt Our Glorious Administration, you better damn well be prepared to defend shit like this, because I have news for you: It's only going to get worse while Bush/Cheney remain in office.
Now, be good little sycophants, consult the Devil for the appropriate answer, and get back to me.
I swear to God, I don't know how you all sleep at night. -
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Unsu...
Re: the mass drama here
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 5:55 PMI find it amusing that you loonies are making it seem like you have uncovered the biggest atrocity of all time and it's a 100% fact. Like the lack of a response to this thread means that no one can deny this big truth you have discovered. Get real. This is one article that really doesn't mean shit. I mean who is this guy? He's credible? Who the fuck knows. And i find it extremely amusing that you claim he was tortured. Even the guy that supposedly went threw this ordeal doesn't even claim he was tortured. So speaking of pulling things out of asses..i think you're doing exactly that will this whole torture bit. Again: get real. If having to listen to blaring heavy metal music for hours on ends is torture, than hell..i tortured my family nonstop when i was a kid.
The bottom line here is that you have no facts. No one cares to comment on this story because that's all it is - a story. So the next time you want to associate all this kind of drama to a "story" make sure it's a good one, k? -
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Re: the mass drama here
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 6:05 PM"And i find it extremely amusing that you claim he was tortured. Even the guy that supposedly went threw this ordeal doesn't even claim he was tortured."
The *two* people to which this happened say that they were "illegally imprisoned and subjected to physical and mental interrogation tactics 'reserved for terrorists and so-called enemy combatants.'" This is, of course, a euphemism for torture.
"The bottom line here is that you have no facts. No one cares to comment on this story because that's all it is - a story."
So, basically, your defense here amounts to "it probably didn't really happen." Understood.
Does that mean that if these events did, in fact, happen, you wouldn't be able to defend it? -
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Re: the mass drama here
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 6:19 PMAnd let's just remove the word "torture," since it sounds like you don't think the U.S. tortures alleged terrorists and "enemy combatants." Do you think it's okay for the U.S. to implement "physical and mental interrogation tactics reserved for terrorists and so-called enemy combatants" against its own citizens? Against its own citizens for exposing fraud and corruption? Against its own military officers for exposing fraud and corruption? -
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Unsu...
Re: the mass drama here
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 6:23 PM>And let's just remove the word "torture," since it sounds like you don't think the U.S. tortures alleged terrorists and "enemy combatants." Do you think it's okay for the U.S. to implement "physical and mental interrogation tactics reserved for terrorists and so-called enemy combatants" against its own citizens<
Over in Iraq yes. Not for your fairy tail reasons though -
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Re: the mass drama here
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 6:26 PMNow we've seen some of the "thoroughly repugnant things." Kudos for having the balls to say them. -
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Unsu...
Re: the mass drama here
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 6:30 PMWell, i wouldn't call them "repugnant things" More like honest facts of reality. And i would have said them sooner but it was just so much fun seeing your panties get all crunched up your ass like they were for the lack of responses -
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Re: the mass drama here
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 6:35 PM"it was just so much fun seeing your panties get all crunched up your ass"
Yeah, yeah, I've heard that before.
People can determine for themselves whether or not your defenses/statements were repugnant. I know my take. -
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Re: the mass drama here
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 7:13 PMFrom this point forward, I expect people to stop saying, "If you didn't do anything wrong, you don't have anything to fear/worry about." This is clearly no longer the case, if it ever was to begin with.
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Unsu...
Re: the mass drama here
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 6:22 PM>The *two* people to which this happened say that they were "illegally imprisoned and subjected to physical and mental interrogation tactics 'reserved for terrorists and so-called enemy combatants.'" This is, of course, a euphemism for torture. <
Again, the only thing they claimed to happen was aggressive interrogation and hearing nonstop heavy metal music.
That doesn't equal tortue.
>Does that mean that if these events did, in fact, happen, you wouldn't be able to defend it?<
Defend what? A U.S. citizen being held for a couple months in Iraq while the military investigates his situation? Don't forget, this happened in Iraq, not the States which is a consequence of working in a war zone where the enemy doesn't necessarily wear a uniform. The enemy can be anyone over there. If this story does have some truth..than so what: this guy had a bad couple months..but he is free now isn't he? The U.S. obviously did it's job right and found him to be innocent of any crimes so they let him go.
Good Job to those in charge for finding the truth in middle of a place where that's not easily done
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Re: the mass drama here
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 7:52 PM<The enemy can be anyone over there>
even your own country in some instances. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: the mass drama here
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 8:03 PM"even your own country in some instances."
Indeed.
By the by, when was the last time anyone in here saw me that deeply upset about *anything* (other than about a year ago when someone in here falsely accused Barack Obama of engaging in criminal activities)? I'm fairly laid back about most things, even things that I shouldn't be laid back about. I don't rant and rave over every little thing like some people in here (on both the right and left) do.
But this... THIS... is worth becoming militant over. It is *completely* unconscionable. -
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Unsu...
Re: the mass drama here
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 8:46 PMYeah, sorry Enrika. I should have saved my "loonies" remark for the true loonies in this tribe. I wont say any names...Mar...*cough*..y
Although one has to wonder somewhat about your metal state to be an Obama supporter. I still think you're one of the better leftist in this tribe. If that means much, which i'm sure it doesn't :) -
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Re: the mass drama here
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 9:45 PMI assume my metal state is predominately iron, although I don't know enough about the human body to know this for certain.
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Re: the mass drama here
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 9:58 PMNevertheless, apology accepted. -
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Unsu...
Re: the mass drama here
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 10:15 PM>The simple fact is that the article has not got any thing from the position of the other side
Ah--the old Fox News argument, trotted out for lack of anything else.
As in, "Tonight! 2 + 2=4. Now for the other side of the story!"
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Re: the mass drama here
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 9:06 PM<Good Job to those in charge for finding the truth in middle of a place where that's not easily done >
Rik - are you at all concerned about this story if in fact it comes out that these people ARE telling the truth, and they are not complicit in some way? -
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Re: the mass drama here
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 9:42 PM"Rik - are you at all concerned about this story if in fact it comes out that these people ARE telling the truth, and they are not complicit in some way?"
Obviously not, since he said, "The U.S. obviously did it's job right and found him to be innocent of any crimes so they let him go."
That is, in fact, what he meant by "Good Job to those in charge for finding the truth in middle of a place where that's not easily done," with "the truth," in this case, being that they were completely innocent.
Re-read his post and it should become clear.
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: the mass drama here
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 10:31 PM>Rik - are you at all concerned about this story if in fact it comes out that these people ARE telling the truth, and they are not complicit in some way?<
no -
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Unsu...
Re: the mass drama here
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 10:49 PMTis a serene world wee Rik and his simple ilk live in indeed!
The US is always right even when it's wrong and then it's even then it's only wrong because icky people say bad things because they're icky, every other country sux, and Republicans, to a man, cuz women, like, who cares, cuz Republicans are a peace-loving, gentle lot with immense testiclesand who are pure of heart and immaculate of soul, seeking eternally to make an ungrateful world--which sux, by the way--a better, better place.
Plus: the good guys always win and Santa Clause exists. Oh, to be like Rik!
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Re: the mass drama here
Wed, August 29, 2007 - 2:40 AM"Good Job to those in charge for finding the truth in middle of a place where that's not easily done"
Incidentally, congratulating someone for determining that innocent people are innocent by torturing them (or, if you prefer, by imprisoning them and subjecting them to "physical and mental interrogation tactics 'reserved for terrorists and so-called enemy combatants'") is so deeply twisted and wrong that I can't even speak to it. Perhaps someone more eloquent in here can do it. -
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Re: the mass drama here
Wed, August 29, 2007 - 5:52 AM<<Incidentally, congratulating someone for determining that innocent people are innocent by torturing them (or, if you prefer, by imprisoning them and subjecting them to "physical and mental interrogation tactics 'reserved for terrorists and so-called enemy combatants'") is so deeply twisted and wrong that I can't even speak to it. Perhaps someone more eloquent in here can do it.>>
It reminds me of the medieval practice of trial by drowning: if the accused witch sank and drowned that meant she was innocent. If she floated, that meant she was a witch, who was promptly burned.at the stake.
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Re: the mass drama here
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 9:05 PM<The *two* people to which this happened say that they were "illegally imprisoned and subjected to physical and mental interrogation tactics 'reserved for terrorists and so-called enemy combatants.'" This is, of course, a euphemism for torture.>
No it is not. Playing loud music while in solitary is not torture. -
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Re: the mass drama here
Wed, August 29, 2007 - 1:40 AM"Playing loud music while in solitary is not torture."
a) That is, quite obviously, a matter of opinion. I also suspect you might change your mind if you were subjected to such.
b) It is also dependent upon the manner in which this technique was implemented. Unless, of course, you think there's no such thing as psychological torture, in which case, again, I suspect you might change your mind if you were subjected to such.
c) I got the distinct impression from the article that this was not the only "physical and mental interrogation [tactic] 'reserved for terrorists and so-called enemy combatants'" that was performed on them. Although, admittedly, I would expect that the example they would use in the article would most likely be the worst one they could think of. For example, if they had been waterboarded, I definitely expect they would have mentioned that. -
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Re: the mass drama here
Wed, August 29, 2007 - 2:47 AM<a) That is, quite obviously, a matter of opinion. I also suspect you might change your mind if you were subjected to such. >
Maybe - but I doubt it. I'd LOVE this compared to the actual harm that the word torture really seems to represent to the UN and such.........
<b) It is also dependent upon the manner in which this technique was implemented. Unless, of course, you think there's no such thing as psychological torture, in which case, again, I suspect you might change your mind if you were subjected to such.>
Thank you. You recognize the difference between "torture" and "psychological torture". -
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Re: the mass drama here
Wed, August 29, 2007 - 2:51 AM"Thank you. You recognize the difference between "torture" and "psychological torture"."
No, I recognize the difference between *physical torture* and *psychological torture*. They are both forms of torture. -
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Re: the mass drama here
Wed, August 29, 2007 - 6:07 PM<No, I recognize the difference between *physical torture* and *psychological torture*. They are both forms of torture.>
I'd agree. Kinda in the same way that a beatdown and a spanking are comparably the same since they are both forms of physical violence. -
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Re: the mass drama here
Wed, August 29, 2007 - 9:47 PM"Kinda in the same way that a beatdown and a spanking are comparably the same since they are both forms of physical violence."
Again, I suspect you might change your attitude on psychological torture if you were subjected to it.
There is a tiny, dark, twisted part of me that thinks that anyone who thinks the U.S. doesn't torture people should automatically be subjected to exactly what alleged terrorists and "enemy combatants" are subjected to and see if they change their minds. And, similarly, that anyone who thinks that psychological torture isn't that bad should automatically be subjected to psychological torture, in all its many forms, and see if they change their minds.
An even darker part of me fantasizes about it, in the same way that my prepubescent self fantasized about ripping into tiny pieces with my bare hands the girls who picked on me mercilessly at school.
It is a viciously satisfying fantasy. -
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Re: the mass drama here
Thu, August 30, 2007 - 7:31 PM<Again, I suspect you might change your attitude on psychological torture if you were subjected to it. >
No, I'd be stoked that I was not one of those people that had actual physical torture.
<An even darker part of me fantasizes about it, in the same way that my prepubescent self fantasized about ripping into tiny pieces with my bare hands the girls who picked on me mercilessly at school.>
Hmm. -
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Re: the mass drama here
Thu, August 30, 2007 - 7:46 PM"No, I'd be stoked that I was not one of those people that had actual physical torture."
I don't think that even you think you'd be "stoked." However, I'd accept "relieved," possibly even "grateful."
Either way, it's very easy to say that from the position of someone who's had neither (unless there's something you haven't told us).
"Hmm."
Hey, I'm not all flowers and sunshine over here. And those girls are still alive (as far as I know).
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Re: the mass drama here
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 9:04 PM<The bottom line here is that you have no facts. No one cares to comment on this story because that's all it is - a story.>
Fair'nuff. Next time you comment on 'just a story', I'll make sure to point out that whatever you say is - at best - immaterial.
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Re: the mass drama here
Wed, August 29, 2007 - 2:07 AM<<The bottom line here is that you have no facts. No one cares to comment on this story because that's all it is - a story. So the next time you want to associate all this kind of drama to a "story" make sure it's a good one, k>>
k. It's just a news story. But let's pretend it's true. What would you then say? That these people had it coming because they were disloyal to our corporate masters?
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 7:24 PM***********Not bad, bear. Although there was nothing like that even hinted at as a possibility in that article, so you're just pulling that *completely* out of your ass, as you chastise so many on the left of doing so often. But you did manage to attempt a defense of these actions without saying thoroughly repugnant things (except for speaking badly of those who are *not* attempting to pull a totally unfounded fantasy defense out of their asses). **********
Oh fer krists sake don't be a fool. All I did was articulate possibilities not examined in the uninformative un-helpful article and of course point the finger at the haters of the USA for reveling at their unreasonable leaping of conclusions.
The simple fact is that the article has not got any thing from the position of the other side - and if what I put on the table has any basis in reality (something I can't say) then the journalists won't ever know because it'll be secret - permanently.
However, like always, these people ( these shallow incurious people) take one side limited information and run with it: hating the USA like there was no tomorrow. -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 7:28 PMYep, right. You really say it like it is, Cliff.
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Unsu...
Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 7:19 PM<<"It was a Wal-Mart for guns," >>
Discount firearms. Cool.
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Wed, August 29, 2007 - 5:19 PMSoooo .... let's see here:
What were the reactions?
"It probably really didn't happen."
"It's not that important."
"It happened, but it probably really *should* have happened the way it did, 'cause, well ... um ... uh ... based on total off-the-wall conjecture I fished out of my anus, these Whistleblowers may have been 'outing' some super-secret undercover 'sting'. And *that* kind of thing is only A-OK when Dick Cheney or Karl Rove or Scooter Libby do it!"
"What harm was done? None of them are *still* in custody! What's 97 days in custody for trying to do the right thing? Piece of cake! So, their careers are over and their lives are still in a shambles. It's not like anybody actually *hurt* 'em!"
"I am so too not a Republican!"
"So-and-so's a loony."
"So-and-so's a dimling."
About what I expected. I don't know what the *hell* it will take for you all to realize, "Golly ... we've been had! These people I've been trusting are Total Pricks and they don't give two shits about anything except lining their own pockets at the public's expense, and getting rid of people who might possibly *prevent* them from continuing to line their own pockets at the public's expense." -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Wed, August 29, 2007 - 6:05 PMThere's no victory here - there's no news in the fact that people who ever supported the Republican party after the 60s are evil or retarded. *Of course* they are evil and retarded. It's a waste of time to painstakingly demonstrate that they are vile and/or stupid and then get all upset when they turn our, lo and behold, to be vile and stupid.
The lack of action in this and many other matters stems from *the fact that you are putting your energies here and not out there*. They are able to be as stupid and evil as they are because good people are doing nothing. The little organizations that existed for a sec are gone, collapsed under disorganization, entropy, acrimony.
Please believe me - there is no need for further experiment:
YES; they will fulfill your every base expectation for psychopathic personality and pointless idiocy; YES, the inexplicable supporters will satanically change the subject, enrage you with sophistries and evasions, sell out humanity for nothing more than the perceived prestige of being with the rich-fuck party; YES, they are dimwitted dupes at best and vile cruds on average - ENOUGH RESEARCH. Now defeat them. You will have to fight. Yes. Fight. Fight them. Do it now. -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Wed, August 29, 2007 - 9:50 PM"You will have to fight. Yes. Fight. Fight them. Do it now."
Where you lead, I will follow. -
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Re: Iraq Corruption Whistleblowers Made to Suffer
Thu, August 30, 2007 - 8:14 PMStop paying taxes to the feds. Start making them work for it.
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