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hm...this is worth considering (from Chomsky's ZNet blog):
"Hello Mr. Chomsky.
I'm assuming you know who Ron Paul is.
And I'm also assuming you have a general idea about his positions.
Here my summary of Mr. Paul's positions:
- He values property rights, and contracts between people (defended by law enforcement and courts)."
Under all circumstances? Suppose someone facing starvation accepts a contract with General Electric that requires him to work 12 hours a day locked into a factory with no health-safety regulations, no security, no benefits, etc. And the person accepts it because the alternative is that his children will starve. Fortunately, that form of savagery was overcome by democratic politics long ago. Should all of those victories for poor and working people be dismantled, as we enter into a period of private tyranny (with contracts defended by law enforcement)? Not my cup of tea.
"- He wants to take away the unfair advantage corporations have (via the dismantling of big government)"
"Dismantling of big government" sounds like a nice phrase. What does it mean? Does it mean that corporations go out of existence, because there will no longer be any guarantee of limited liability? Does it mean that all health, safety, workers rights, etc., go out the window because they were instituted by public pressures implemented through government, the only component of the governing system that is at least to some extent accountable to the public (corporations are unaccountable, apart from generally weak regulatory apparatus)? Does it mean that the economy should collapse, because basic R&D is typically publicly funded -- like what we're now using, computers and the internet? Should we eliminate roads, schools, public transportation, environmental regulation,....? Does it mean that we should be ruled by private tyrannies with no accountability to the general public, while all democratic forms are tossed out the window? Quite a few questions arise.
"- He defends workers right to organize (so long as owners have the right to argue against it)."
Rights that are enforced by state police power, as you've already mentioned.
There are huge differences between workers and owners. Owners can fire and intimidate workers, not conversely. just for starters. Putting them on a par is effectively supporting the rule of owners over workers, with the support of state power -- itself largely under owner control, given concentration of resources.
"- He proposes staying out of the foreign affairs of other nations (unless his home is directly attacked, and must respond to defend it)."
He is proposing a form of ultranationalism, in which we are concerned solely with our preserving our own wealth and extraordinary advantages, getting out of the UN, rejecting any international prosecution of US criminals (for aggressive war, for example), etc. Apart from being next to meaningless, the idea is morally unacceptable, in my view.
I really can't find differences between your positions and his."
There's a lot more. Take Social Security. If he means what he says literally, then widows, orphans, the disabled who didn't themselves pay into Social Security should not benefit (or of course those awful illegal aliens). His claims about SS being "broken" are just false. He also wants to dismantle it, by undermining the social bonds on which it is based -- the real meaning of offering younger workers other options, instead of having them pay for those who are retired, on the basis of a communal decision based on the principle that we should have concern for others in need. He wants people to be able to run around freely with assault rifles, on the basis of a distorted reading of the Second Amendment (and while we're at it, why not abolish the whole raft of constitutional provisions and amendments, since they were all enacted in ways he opposes?).
"So I have these questions:
1) Can you please tell me the differences between your schools of "Libertarianism"? "
There are a few similarities here and there, but his form of libertarianism would be a nightmare, in my opinion -- on the dubious assumption that it could even survive for more than a brief period without imploding.
"2) Can you please tell me what role "private property" and "ownership" have in your school of "Libertarianism"?"
That would have to be worked out by free communities, and of course it is impossible to respond to what I would prefer in abstraction from circumstances, which make a great deal of difference, obviously.
"3) Would you support Ron Paul, if he was the Republican presidential candidate...and Hilary Clinton was his Democratic opponent?"
No.
"Hello Mr. Chomsky.
I'm assuming you know who Ron Paul is.
And I'm also assuming you have a general idea about his positions.
Here my summary of Mr. Paul's positions:
- He values property rights, and contracts between people (defended by law enforcement and courts)."
Under all circumstances? Suppose someone facing starvation accepts a contract with General Electric that requires him to work 12 hours a day locked into a factory with no health-safety regulations, no security, no benefits, etc. And the person accepts it because the alternative is that his children will starve. Fortunately, that form of savagery was overcome by democratic politics long ago. Should all of those victories for poor and working people be dismantled, as we enter into a period of private tyranny (with contracts defended by law enforcement)? Not my cup of tea.
"- He wants to take away the unfair advantage corporations have (via the dismantling of big government)"
"Dismantling of big government" sounds like a nice phrase. What does it mean? Does it mean that corporations go out of existence, because there will no longer be any guarantee of limited liability? Does it mean that all health, safety, workers rights, etc., go out the window because they were instituted by public pressures implemented through government, the only component of the governing system that is at least to some extent accountable to the public (corporations are unaccountable, apart from generally weak regulatory apparatus)? Does it mean that the economy should collapse, because basic R&D is typically publicly funded -- like what we're now using, computers and the internet? Should we eliminate roads, schools, public transportation, environmental regulation,....? Does it mean that we should be ruled by private tyrannies with no accountability to the general public, while all democratic forms are tossed out the window? Quite a few questions arise.
"- He defends workers right to organize (so long as owners have the right to argue against it)."
Rights that are enforced by state police power, as you've already mentioned.
There are huge differences between workers and owners. Owners can fire and intimidate workers, not conversely. just for starters. Putting them on a par is effectively supporting the rule of owners over workers, with the support of state power -- itself largely under owner control, given concentration of resources.
"- He proposes staying out of the foreign affairs of other nations (unless his home is directly attacked, and must respond to defend it)."
He is proposing a form of ultranationalism, in which we are concerned solely with our preserving our own wealth and extraordinary advantages, getting out of the UN, rejecting any international prosecution of US criminals (for aggressive war, for example), etc. Apart from being next to meaningless, the idea is morally unacceptable, in my view.
I really can't find differences between your positions and his."
There's a lot more. Take Social Security. If he means what he says literally, then widows, orphans, the disabled who didn't themselves pay into Social Security should not benefit (or of course those awful illegal aliens). His claims about SS being "broken" are just false. He also wants to dismantle it, by undermining the social bonds on which it is based -- the real meaning of offering younger workers other options, instead of having them pay for those who are retired, on the basis of a communal decision based on the principle that we should have concern for others in need. He wants people to be able to run around freely with assault rifles, on the basis of a distorted reading of the Second Amendment (and while we're at it, why not abolish the whole raft of constitutional provisions and amendments, since they were all enacted in ways he opposes?).
"So I have these questions:
1) Can you please tell me the differences between your schools of "Libertarianism"? "
There are a few similarities here and there, but his form of libertarianism would be a nightmare, in my opinion -- on the dubious assumption that it could even survive for more than a brief period without imploding.
"2) Can you please tell me what role "private property" and "ownership" have in your school of "Libertarianism"?"
That would have to be worked out by free communities, and of course it is impossible to respond to what I would prefer in abstraction from circumstances, which make a great deal of difference, obviously.
"3) Would you support Ron Paul, if he was the Republican presidential candidate...and Hilary Clinton was his Democratic opponent?"
No.
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Re: Noam Chomsky on Ron Paul
Sun, November 11, 2007 - 2:49 PMI'm not surprised. -
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Re: Noam Chomsky on Ron Paul
Sun, November 11, 2007 - 3:37 PMI would like to see Chomsky run with Kuchinich as his running mate. -
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Re: Noam Chomsky on Ron Paul
Sun, November 11, 2007 - 4:11 PMChomsky basically thinks presidential politics are a waste of time for progressives. Its a rigged system, better to focus on state, local, and to some extent Congressional elections. -
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Re: Noam Chomsky on Ron Paul
Sun, November 11, 2007 - 4:26 PMHes probably right. Doesnt mean he wouldnt be better than our alternatives. Then again, he may feel like a hypocrite if he were to run. Being president may be anti-antithetical to some of his views. In my opinion however, that makes him considerably less harmful than people who dont feel that way.
There is pretty much no chance of me supporting Ron Paul at this point unless he rolls out an impeachment bill of his own more in line with his constitutional views. I never liked his right wing economics to begin with.
On the plus side, Kuchinich seems to now be in 4th place. Thats not an excellent place to be in, but with an entire year left to go those are not impossible odds. In my opinion, any anti-war democrat IS electable against pretty much any neocon on the right. We dont have to compromise by choosing a middle of the right wring road democrat. This election should be in the bag unless it is rigged.
There is no reason whatsoever to settle for a pro-war pro-patriot act democrat. We have no need to compromise. No reason to choose a right wing candidate in the primaries. If Kuchinich looses, then we can debate voting for the lesser evil. I think we should stand behind the democrat who was against the war and who is willing to impeach. -
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Re: Noam Chomsky on Ron Paul
Sun, November 11, 2007 - 4:52 PMIf anything can be learned from the Bush years, it's that the goal should be the country voting to ensure that it can overturn the power of a presidential veto. If that can be done, if you can bring the power of representation closer to the people, you have better representation of the voting interest by default.
The goal of this election should be to make the president irrelevant. -
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Check
Mon, November 12, 2007 - 7:30 PMThe goal of this election should be to make the president irrelevant.
I believe the corporations that are hand picking the next one have made this office viewable as the farce it has become. -
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Re: Check
Wed, November 14, 2007 - 1:52 PM>> The goal of this election should be to make the president irrelevant. <<
NICE -
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Re: Check
Wed, November 14, 2007 - 7:21 PMGuys, until popular movements are organized that are focused on helping normal Americans, and exist OUTSIDE POLITICAL PARTIES then things WILL NOT change. If people think voting every 2 years will create change, they're just fooling themselves. It takes hard work. Years. Relentlessness. Thats how we got civil rights, women's suffrage, labor rights, etc.
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Re: Noam Chomsky on Ron Paul
Sun, November 11, 2007 - 4:57 PM"Chomsky basically thinks presidential politics are a waste of time for progressives. Its a rigged system"
If "rigged" means most people don't support extremists like Chomsky because, well, they're extremists, and hence he would have zero chance of winning, then yeah. -
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Re: Noam Chomsky on Ron Paul
Sun, November 11, 2007 - 5:28 PMChomsky is correct, it is a rigged system. It's the money stupid! ( to paraphrase Bill Clinton's slogan )
We have to get money out of politics. Otherwise the politicians will always fear alienating their corporate sponsors.
They should fear alienating the citizens. -
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Re: Noam Chomsky on Ron Paul
Mon, November 12, 2007 - 6:44 PM
I love it that Chomsky agrees with me that RP is dangerous. -
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Re: Noam Chomsky on Ron Paul
Mon, November 12, 2007 - 6:49 PMDoing the right thing indeed indeed can be dangerous to a corrupt government. -
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Re: Noam Chomsky on Ron Paul
Mon, November 12, 2007 - 6:57 PMindeed indeedy! lol -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Noam Chomsky on Ron Paul
Wed, November 14, 2007 - 5:52 PMLets be honest here and state that left wing support for RP is based mainly on encouraging voices of (relative) sanity within the Republican party, rare as they may be.
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Re: Noam Chomsky on Ron Paul
Mon, November 12, 2007 - 6:56 PM>If "rigged" means most people don't support extremists like Chomsky because, well, they're extremists, and hence he would have zero chance of winning, then yeah.
Define extremist, Ron. Based on polling data the American people agree more with "extremists like chomsky" on most issues - Iraq withdrawal, higher taxes on the rich, protect Social Security, national healthcare, more environmental regulations, etc.
Other than gun control the American public is solidly to the left of the Democrat-Republican oligarchy. -
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Re: Noam Chomsky on Ron Paul
Wed, November 14, 2007 - 1:53 PMToday's definition of "extremist" is a bit different than the 'classical' lexicon;
Extremist = will look away from Xbox for some reason -
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Re: Noam Chomsky on Ron Paul
Wed, November 14, 2007 - 2:03 PM<<<<<<<<<<<<Today's definition of "extremist" is a bit different than the 'classical' lexicon;
Extremist = will look away from Xbox for some reason>>>>>>>>>>>>
LoL, thank you for making my day!
;)
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