No Special Rights for Churches!

topic posted Thu, October 29, 2009 - 11:16 AM by  Hummingbird
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www.taxthechurches.org/



It was the fervent hope of the founders of our great nation that its government would not tresspass on the province of religion, and that religion would find neither refuge nor condemnation from a secular government. The founders' committment to this idea was unequivocal. The very first words of the Bill of Rights read:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

Whether you interpret that statement as an originalist, papist, feminist, or any other -ist, exempting religious organizations from paying taxes is a clear case of our government "respecting an establishment of religion," precisely what the framers intended to prohibit.
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  • Re: No Special Rights for Churches!

    Thu, October 29, 2009 - 5:05 PM
    I agree religions should pay the same taxes any other non profit does.
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: No Special Rights for Churches!

      Thu, October 29, 2009 - 5:13 PM
      here here, all non profits should be treated equally, irrespective of their beliefs.
      • Re: No Special Rights for Churches!

        Thu, October 29, 2009 - 9:53 PM
        I certainly agree that churches should be taxed.

        The amount of money from the Catholic church alone is staggering to contemplate.

        However, when one considers the vast fortunes made by every year by Televangelists such as Robert Tilton, then stops to consider that absolutely none of this money is ever taxed, it seems like a tremendous loss of revenue. Especially at a time such as this when there is a great demand for increased tax revenue to fund such things as say, national health care.

        Robert Tilton, for one, has been in prison for fraud several times. Yet strangely, he is still permitted to run his multi-million dollar ministry tax free.

        Particularly strange is how some ministers, such as John Hagee, have such STRONG opinions about how U.S. Taxpayer's dollars should be spent, despite the fact that they make millions of dollars in revenue for themselves every year, and none of this is payed in taxes.

        If ten people live in a house together, and nine of the people are the ones that finance the purchase of the house, then why should the freeloader who does not pay be the one who makes all the decisions?
        • Re: No Special Rights for Churches!

          Thu, October 29, 2009 - 10:08 PM
          Tax them right into the stone age. Separation of church and state should be just that. Government hands off the content of religion but make the fucking churches pay taxes just like other multimillion dollar corporations.

          Incidentally, why do non-profits get tax breaks? How about taxing them, too? We could get some serious revenue from the bloodsucking leeches at United Way...
          • Re: No Special Rights for Churches!

            Fri, October 30, 2009 - 12:32 PM
            Then tax all charitable organizations. The only reason to single out religions is sheer bigotry. Such antireligious discrimination would also be unconstitutional. "Separation of church and state" means the state should be religiously neutral, not anti-religious.
        • Re: No Special Rights for Churches!

          Fri, October 30, 2009 - 12:34 PM
          "However, when one considers the vast fortunes made by every year by Televangelists such as Robert Tilton, then stops to consider that absolutely none of this money is ever taxed,"

          Says who? Can you document that Tilton and Hagee don't pay income taxes?
          • Re: No Special Rights for Churches!

            Fri, October 30, 2009 - 1:09 PM
            <<Says who? Can you document that Tilton and Hagee don't pay income taxes? >>

            www.google.ca/search
            • Re: No Special Rights for Churches!

              Fri, October 30, 2009 - 2:09 PM
              Not only do they not get taxed, they can write off their morgages too. The freedom from religion foundation is currently trying to overturn that exemption.

              www.ffrf.org/news/2009/p...ancesuit.php
              • Re: No Special Rights for Churches!

                Fri, October 30, 2009 - 2:24 PM
                "Not only do they not get taxed, they can write off their morgages too. "

                If so, is that different than what other charitable organizations can do? If not, again, why single religious organizations out?
                • Re: No Special Rights for Churches!

                  Fri, October 30, 2009 - 2:39 PM

                  No, that tax exemption is only for ministers. Not only that but it's very clear from the congress man that authored the bill's statements that it was created to give them an edge over normal citizens and other non religious nonprofit orgs.



                  "Certainly, in these times when we are being threatened by a godless and antireligious world movement we should correct this discrimination against certain ministers of the gospel who are carrying on such a courageous fight against this foe. Certainly this is not too much to do for these people who are caring for our spiritual welfare."
                • Re: No Special Rights for Churches!

                  Sat, October 31, 2009 - 12:46 PM
                  [If so, is that different than what other charitable organizations can do? If not, again, why single religious organizations out? ]

                  That is why I say that all non-profits should be taxed. I think taxing religious nonprofits while not taxing nonreligious nonprofits would be a violation of the first amendment, because it would clearly be a government action that would tend to interfere with the exercise of religious belief.

                  In other words, tax them all and let God sort 'em out...
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: No Special Rights for Churches!

                    Sun, November 1, 2009 - 1:24 AM
                    "That is why I say that all non-profits should be taxed. I think taxing religious nonprofits while not taxing nonreligious nonprofits would be a violation of the first amendment, because it would clearly be a government action that would tend to interfere with the exercise of religious belief. "

                    Well now that's a more reasonable, fair and egalitarian view.

                    Though I think that non-profits serve a social good, and shouldn't be taxed as long as they aren't for profit.
                    • Re: No Special Rights for Churches!

                      Sun, November 1, 2009 - 1:17 PM
                      [I think that non-profits serve a social good, and shouldn't be taxed as long as they aren't for profit. ]

                      I happen to believe that the revenue-generating methods of modern governance have been gutted by pandering to special interest groups, including many non-profits. I also believe that the "social good" many of these non-profits perform is debatable. Modern governments need money to perform the functions citizens claim to want, even though many citizens are totally unwilling to pay for those services, and some nonprofit organizations exist precisely to restrict or eliminate taxation. To rationalize revenue flow, we need stable forms of taxation. Non-profits should do their share to support the government they keep badgering to perform services.

                      Most organizations, including many large corporations, claim to benefit society. Is that a reason not to tax them?

                      No. Tax them all and let God sort them out.
                      • Re: No Special Rights for Churches!

                        Sun, November 1, 2009 - 9:42 PM
                        "Modern governments need money to perform the functions citizens claim to want"

                        Modern American government gets trillions in taxes while having a pretty low tax rate on the rich. I don't see them starving for cash.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: No Special Rights for Churches!

                    Sun, November 1, 2009 - 9:44 AM
                    <In other words, tax them all and let God sort 'em out... >

                    I have to agree, most nonprofits simply hide their profits as salary. A non profit should be taxed on what ever is not spent directly on their target.
            • Re: No Special Rights for Churches!

              Fri, October 30, 2009 - 2:23 PM
              That's not documentation. You said that their personal incomes were not subject to taxation, not that their organizations were not subject to taxation. Charitable organizations, religious or otherwise, may be free from taxation, but my understanding is that their salaried leaders still have to pay income tax.
              • Re: No Special Rights for Churches!

                Sat, October 31, 2009 - 4:52 AM
                <<That's not documentation. You said that their personal incomes were not subject to taxation, not that their organizations were not subject to taxation. Charitable organizations, religious or otherwise, may be free from taxation, but my understanding is that their salaried leaders still have to pay income tax.>>

                I can't provide you with paper documents personally. I wouldn't be permitted access to that information. I'm sure this isn't what you meant by documentation.

                However, of all of the conceivable legal or illegal activities one could perform in the world, the one which is the easiest to document would have to be paying income tax. Either you do, or you do not, and the proof is in the filed and completed form, or is notable in the absence of such. If a completed form is absent, there must be a legitimate excuse for it. Otherwise, you would be sent to prison for Tax evasion as they did for Al Capone.

                So likely, Tilton and Hagee would decide to pay themselves a salary from their ministry and likely pay income tax on that. However, there are some discrepancies about what belongs to the 'Ministry' and what is considered 'personal property'. An example would be the purchase of a private jet for the 'Ministry', and writing it off as tax exempt while using this private jet exclusively for family vacations. Are the mansions Tilton and Hagee live in considered their own personal property, or do they belong to the Ministry?

                In this link, "Make not my Father's house a house of Merchandise (John 2:16)", it outlines very clearly the tax avoidance strategies employed by John Hagee and Tilton.

                There is a great deal of information on this site about the financial corruption in the Christian church today, and this is from a Christian perspective as well! Doubtless this is at the heart and soul of the matter of the 'Crisis in Christianity' today. How can these tele-Evangelists live lives of such extraordinary extravagance and indulgence funded solely from the tax-deductible contributions of their viewers?

                The Vatican is also mentioned as well as Tilton and Hagee. Here is a selected excerpt.

                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                While in St. Louis some 18 months ago, I chanced to view the infamous Robert Tilton from Texas. Long thought to have expired from televangelism due to a major exposure of his wealth and flagrant use of Christian funds (facing lawsuits and ultimate collapse for a season). Tilton was seen by yours truly on the tube. This ghostly figure boldly declared that verses in Deuteronomy literally allow God’s people to speak wealth into being and generate wealth by simple declaration and speaking ex cathedra. Now one can (under this spontaneous combustion theory of wealth), have ever-increasing faith (i.e., money) to invest in Tilton’s wallet. What a revolting display of heresy did I witness here?

                Again, not to be topped--listen to what John Hagee told the San Antonio Newspaper (Analisa Nazareno, Express-News Business Writer, July 6, 2003):

                “Hagee instructs church members to hold their money toward the heavens. The thousands repeat after him: Give and it shall be given. When you give, it qualifies you to receive God’s abundance, he tells his listeners. If God gives to you before you give to him, God himself will become a liar . . . If you’re not prospering, it’s because you’re not giving.”

                Nazareno continues . . .

                “Hagee’s compensation was among the highest pay packages for television evangelists in 2001, according to IRS 990 filings . . . (Hagee continued in his justification for such a package): Faced with questions about his personal finances and the profitability of GETV, Hagee raised his voice and said: We are hiding absolutely nothing from nobody. I’m not afraid of you. I’m not afraid of the government, but I am afraid of God. And I’m not going to lie to God and go to hell over this.”

                Again, Nazareno . . .

                “Hagee would have little reason to fear the federal government. Other than disclosing their 990 forms, nonprofit organizations have little federal government oversight. Each year, the IRS may examine the tax returns of 1 percent of the 1 million nonprofit organizations that disclose income, according to an IRS spokesman. So, while the IRS has stringent rules about the disclosure of profits and investments, as well as income requirements for officers, most nonprofits such as GETV (Hagee’s Media Network) will operate virtually tax-free with little scrutiny, if any.

                “In fact, when the federal government challenged his church’s nonprofit status in the mid-1990s, Hagee elicited the help of high-profile lawyers who worked often with Christian enterprises and sued the U.S. Postal Service when it denied his church a nonprofit bulk mail discount. A year after Hagee sued, the Postal Service settled with him, granted his church the discount on its mailings in 1999 and refunded more than $40,000 in excess postage fees.”

                www.the-tribulation-network.com/do...htm
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                  Re: No Special Rights for Churches!

                  Sat, October 31, 2009 - 5:21 AM
                  <<<However, when one considers the vast fortunes made by every year by Televangelists such as Robert Tilton, then stops to consider that absolutely none of this money is ever taxed,>>>

                  So you do acknowledge that this statement was incorrect.
                • Re: No Special Rights for Churches!

                  Sun, November 1, 2009 - 1:29 AM
                  "So likely, Tilton and Hagee would decide to pay themselves a salary from their ministry and likely pay income tax on that."

                  Fair enough, which means that the claim that their incomes are not subject to taxation was false.

                  "There is a great deal of information on this site about the financial corruption in the Christian church today"

                  There is no "the Christian church." There are thousands of different Christian churches. I imagine some are corrupt, since many institutions regardless of ideology are corrupt, but that doesn't mean that all Christian churches are.

                  "How can these tele-Evangelists live lives of such extraordinary extravagance and indulgence funded solely from the tax-deductible contributions of their viewers?"

                  I see that televangelists keep being brought up. In Dawkin's "God Delusion", when he calls for taxing churches, he brings up the wealthy televangelists as well. Why do so many atheists seem to think that those few wealthy televangelists represent all or most of Christianity? They are a minority.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: No Special Rights for Churches!

                    Sun, November 1, 2009 - 6:08 AM
                    <<Fair enough, which means that the claim that their (personal) incomes are not subject to taxation was false.>>

                    It is true that the statement regarding the minister's personal incomes are not subject to taxation is false.

                    However, I think the question is whether or not the actual MINISTRY and/or church itself should be taxed, just as a non-profit corporation is (or would be) taxed.

                    "There is a great deal of information on this site about the financial corruption in the Christian church today"

                    <<There is no "the Christian church." There are thousands of different Christian churches. I imagine some are corrupt, since many institutions regardless of ideology are corrupt, but that doesn't mean that all Christian churches are.>>

                    It is true that there is no 'Christian church' in the same way that there is a Catholic church. However, I use the term in it's broadest sense to include all of organized Christianity (i.e. The 'Christian church' as defined from 'The Muslim church'.) Just as if I say 'The American state' I would be referring to the whole of the Federal government, and not just referring to one state in particular.

                    It's certainly true that the misdeeds of one do not determine the actions of the whole. I am not saying we should tar all churches with the same brush. However, it has been demonstrated that there have been a few churches that have used their tax exempt status in a fraudulent manner. As far as taxation purposes goes, it's just too difficult to distinguish what belongs to the 'ministry' and what belongs to the 'minister'.

                    Also, yes. It's absolutely true that secular non-profits should be subject to the same laws of taxation as the churches hypothetically would be. The reason for the tax-exempt status for churches in the first place was because of the historical, traditional and ongoing role of the churches in providing community services, particularly for the underprivileged.

                    However, in a secular society this role is more and more being taken on by government. The advantages to having the government shoulder such responsibilities is that community services and poverty relief are provided in a non-partisan manner. There is no need to 'pretend to be a Christian' to get food and shelter, since the only other option is to freeze and starve to death.

                    This is the opposite of the Bush administration's attempt at 'faith based initiatives', which would transfer more and more of the social services such as welfare, poverty relief, etc. to the churches in order to 'streamline' government (and government expenses).

                    "How can these tele-Evangelists live lives of such extraordinary extravagance and indulgence funded solely from the tax-deductible contributions of their viewers?"

                    <<I see that televangelists keep being brought up. In Dawkin's "God Delusion", when he calls for taxing churches, he brings up the wealthy televangelists as well. Why do so many atheists seem to think that those few wealthy televangelists represent all or most of Christianity? They are a minority.>>

                    The televangelists certainly do not represent all or most of Christianity, but they do clearly represent one of the worst EXTREMES of Christianity. Not only are these Televangelist such a clear and obvious demonstration of greed and hypocrisy, but there seems to be no condemnation of them by other Christian churches. In the example of Jim Jones and the People's Temple, we would be reminded that this wasn't really Christian behavior at all, despite the outward trappings. No such world on the Televangelists.

                    When I asked a friend of mine from the former Soviet Union what the 'Anti-American' propaganda there was like, he told me that what they said about America was true, but that it was a very biased truth. There is no reason to make up an obvious lie, just take the worst examples and demonstrate that as 'reality'. So, in the Soviet Union they might be shown a Ku Klux Klan rally with the Klansmen marching down the street, spouting hateful invective yet provided with Police protection, and the Soviet people are reminded that this is the consequence of what would happen if free speech were permitted. Once he mentioned a Soviet documentary about the life of a homeless man living in Chicago, showing how he begs for money, searches dumpsters for food, sleeps in a homeless shelter, etc. Every word was the truth, albeit a biased, slanted 'truth' to further the Communist agenda.

                    I think the difference here is that many Americans who watched these Soviet propaganda films and say "What you have show me is true but, these are only the WORST aspects of America." A small handful of Americans may be actively working to improve these negative aspects, a handful of people on the other extreme may be working to ensure that these negative conditions persist. The vast majority of people shrug their shoulders with indifference. "It's terrible, but what can I do?"

                    So while the Televangelists represent a minority of Christian churches, they are certainly a noteworthy representation. Because of their celebrity status, whatever they do is openly demonstrated for the critical view of the public eye.
                    • Re: No Special Rights for Churches!

                      Sun, November 1, 2009 - 9:47 AM
                      <Not only are these Televangelist such a clear and obvious demonstration of greed and hypocrisy, but there seems to be no condemnation of them by other Christian churches. In the example of Jim Jones and the People's Temple, we would be reminded that this wasn't really Christian behavior at all, despite the outward trappings. No such world on the Televangelists.
                      >

                      It's not Christian behavior to condem anyone.
  • Re: No Special Rights for Churches!

    Fri, October 30, 2009 - 12:36 PM
    Not if the exemption applies to charitable organizations in general, religious, nonreligious or otherwise. If it does, then it's not a case of special rights for churches. To single out religious organizations for taxation while excluding nonreligious ones would be a case of unconstitutional discrimination against religious organizations just because they're religious and "special rights" for nonreligious charitable organizations.