>I think that International Law is a bit pointless, and might actually do more harm than good, up until that point where we finally have a group that is willing and able to enforce it without bias.

There isn't a legal system in existence that doesn't have massive bias, corruption, etc. So do you support national / state laws here? Since we can't enforce laws equally - which various statistics will back me up on - by your logic murder, rape, etc. should be legalized.

Come off it. You're just against international law because your "side" breaks it. Pathetic.

>They don't have any real interest in international law or war crimes. They solely have an interest in using (abusing?) international law to attack those whom they don't like.

Do you have any proof of that? How about citing a case where say me or Sean is against war crimes prosecution because we like the perpetrators - as you are doing with the Israelis?

<<I think that International Law is a bit pointless, and might actually do more harm than good, up until that point where we finally have a group that is willing and able to enforce it without bias.>>

Here's Andrew Sullivan on the subject. It's a great blog post.

andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/th...tml

i don't believe in war crimes. war is awful, one way of being slaughtered isn't worse than another... there should be no hague trials for anyone....

You expect Israel to do nothing?
---------
You people act like these events occured in a vaccuum of zero history.

Israel had years and years and decades to make things right. Their failure to do so makes this their own fault.

Israel should have stopped this from happening by not running a concentration camp.

Its pretty simple.

Its not that i expect israel to not defend itself, its that i expect israel to have grown up and played the adult in this relationship since it has the military and economic might and since gaza is more or less a prison camp.

Why would the israelis do all of this self destructive crap which bites them in the ass via karma?

same thing as with your average humanz. Stupidity, inertia, social programming, convenience, pack psychology, mob psychology and groupthink.

Ignorance, greed, fear, cluelessnes.

same stupid human tricks, different corner of the world.

www.jackassworld.com/

<<"Not many Gazans that are not fighting are hanging outside these days during an attack.">>

<Those damn Gazas are trading their liberty for security?? What horrible people! They obviously deserve neither, right Andrew? Perhaps 700 checkpoints in Gaza, like in the "Peaceful" West Bank would do the trick?>

This group is like one step forward, and five-idiot steps backwards.

What the hell are you talking about? Do you even know?

<Perhaps 700 checkpoints in Gaza, like in the "Peaceful" West Bank would do the trick?>

You figured it out. Yes. The checkpoints, the roadblocks and the control that has been exerted by the Israelis upon the Pals in the West Bank caused to some degree the cessation of attacks from within and without of the West Bank. The better part is that Abbas is now working WITH Israel, which means that Israel is helping Fatah train their police, and putting these police on some of the checkpoints and roadblocks. In fact, BECAUSE of this, Israel has taken down some of the checkpoints/roadblocks.

So, it appears that Fatah has figured out how to help their situation...they simply have to stop attacking Israel.

<Israel had years and years and decades to make things right. Their failure to do so makes this their own fault.>

The Pals have had years and years and decades to make things right. Their failure to do so makes this their own fault.

<Israel should have stopped this from happening by not running a concentration camp.>

The Pals should have stopped this from happening by not shooting over seven thousand rockets at Israel from within Gaza and not shooting rockets at Israel during a ceasefire.

<Its pretty simple.>

Yep. Sure is.

<Its not that i expect israel to not defend itself, its that i expect israel to have grown up and played the adult in this relationship since it has the military and economic might and since gaza is more or less a prison camp.>

The actions of the Pals is what has created what you term, "more or less a prison camp". How much of a prison camp is the West Bank right now? Is it not getting better?

<Why would the israelis do all of this self destructive crap which bites them in the ass via karma?>

Why would the Pals do all of this self destructive crap which bites them in the ass via karma?

<Why are you trying to deflect attention away from your comments about using white phosphorus and the threat it poses to civilians?>

Sheik, I will try to be nice to you this one last time. I always get bitten on the ass by you when I do this, but I'll try again:

I am not trying to "deflect attention away" from anything. I am introducing another side of the story. I am contributing more logic and reason to what is otherwise a one-sided and ignorant charge. The FACT is that the WP is NOT automatically a "war crime". Only when it is used SPECIFICALLY against citizens is it a war crime. And, in this context, it's SPECIFICALLY NOT used as a war-crime, but as a defensive measure for the advance of the soldiers.

So. Knock it off. Not ever response that questions the basic 'logic' used is an attempt to "deflect attention away" from anything.

<What you just posted has nothing to do with the topic...>

Are you mad? These threads take their own paths, so if I am a little off topic, then fucking let it go. Tough shit.

<and does not change the fact that you have repeatedly demonstrated a pattern of being dismissive of the situation that the Palestinian people in Gaza are suffering through.>

Yep. I am dismissive of the kind of life that those people have chosen for themselves.

<Your insanity never fails to amaze and befuddle.>

And your ability to be so often befuddled never fails to amaze me.

<Do some fucking research, consider that you are suggesting that if the Palestinians didn't go outside then they'd be fine...>

Genius, the ONLY way that WP can harm a person is if it LANDS on them or otherwise touches them while it's burning. I don't have to be a weapons expert to figure that out by myself, and if you were at all more intelligent, you'd recognize this fact.

So...to no further ado: "The shell is an improved version with a more limited dispersion of the phosphorus, which ignites on contact with oxygen, and is being used by the Israeli gunners to create a smoke screen on the ground."

'"Asked what shell was being used to create the smokescreen effect seen so clearly on television images, she said: “We're using what other armies use and we're not using any weapons that are banned under international law.”'

"Human Rights Watch had no evidence that Israel was using incendiaries as weapons."

So, there you go, Sheik. Choose to believe what you will. You WANT to believe that the Israelis are using this as a weapon against SPECIFICALLY non-combatants. Believe what you will.

Again, I just read up on WP, and one has to be in direct contact with it. So, it stands to reason that the ONLY way that someone would be harmed with WP was that if they were in the way of the advancing Israelis. And, since the average citizens is not hanging outside watching the Israelis advance...

<If the solution for the Palestinians is for them to stay huddled in their homes then the same solution would apply to the Israelis.....>

No. Fucking hell. We're talking about two different situations. One is Israel's invasion of Gaza BECAUSE of these 7K+ rockets.

Sheik, the Israelis go to bomb shelters when the bomb sirens go off. So, they DO get out of the way. That IS the solution, and Israel DOES follow your 'solution'.

<.No Israelis would be hurt if they simply stayed in their bomb shelters,>

You're right. That's why they go there when they hear the sirens go off.

<so they clearly cannot be considered victims when they have the means to protect themselves in much the same way as you claim the Palestinians are not at risk to be harmed.>

Not true. There's no warning of Hamas' missiles, but there's no question that Israel is invading. No question at all.

The stupidity of what you are saying is mind-numbing.

<The issue I have with your nonsense is not the aspect of whether or not the Hamas rockets must be stopped and that Israel wouldn't be in Gaza but for the rocket attacks.>

So I am glad that you agree.

<You fall back on that to deflect attention from the topic at hand...>

No, I add more information to the mix.

<using white phosphorus in a highly populated civilian area and that your solution is for the people to stay in their homes.>

Yes. It's not a weapon, so there's no reason for the Israelis NOT to use it.

<Not everyone has the luxury of staying inside when there are bombs being dropped around them.>

And, you're suggesting that going OUTSIDE is a better solution?

<People need to leave their homes sometimes...they have to care for the injured, they have to tend to emergencies that involve their communities.>

Yes, and if at that point they are harmed by the WP, then they made the choice to go outside, right? I mean, is this not better than Israel just carpet-bombing the area to get the same effect?

<How can you even think to say that anyone should be assured that the Palestinians (Not the Pals as you so obnoxiously refer to them) are safe in their homes. You don't know that!!!!>

Yes I do. Simply READ what this stuff is. Do your own research. Fucking hell. Someone indoors cannot be harmed by this AT ALL.

Why not learn about something before you say something so stupid? The Pals ARE safe in their homes when WP is around. That's how the stuff works...........one has to be available for it to FALL ON THEM..............

tdonhutto.blogspot.com/

www.google.com/search

Sean: "I've said it in the past and I will say it again since Andrew has so gleefully proved my point for me-- Israel is utterly incapable of honoring any agreements it makes."

Yep. Andy loves to parrot that shit. Makes him think he's smart or something. You know, the Israelis themselves are claiming that they're using white phosforus in full accordance with (((International Law)))... Yeah, in Gaza of all places! Guess longnose Andy has got some catching up to do on the latest lies being divulged from BS central command. The funny thing in this one particular Israeli lie is that they're indirectly admitting in violating International Law. First they deny that they're using that shit, then they say they're using it in full accordance with International Law... See, you can't possibly do that in the most densely populated area of the world -- the legal use of white phosforus excludes potential harm to civilians and even militants.
Same story with the UN school they bombed. First excuse: there was fire coming from the building. Then it became a "vicinity" issue. Now it's a stray bomb. Suuuuuuure. Yesterday I saw a piece about Palestinian civilians who were getting grouped in houses by the Israeli Terrorist Forces for their supposed safety. These houses then came under fire, in one instance killing 30 people. Total savagery.

With the illegitimate restrictions of the free press and all these blatant lies, what credibility is left on Israel's part? None whatsoever.

NONE.

Bump.

Seriously all you "no international law" proponents, please explain what happened with Milosevic if there's no such thing as a war crime or international law.

<Why was Slobodan Milosevic arrested and put on trial by an international court?>

A genuinely great question, Kelly. (And, and easy one to answer.)

The International Court of Justice is the court for the UN. The UN is a group of countries that agree to follow the decisions set forth historically by the UN's governing body. The UN itself states, "While it is true that only concrete texts accepted by Governments can directly constitute a body of written international law"... That is what I have been saying the WHOLE TIME. The part to take interest in is "accepted by Governments"... Governments AGREE to submit to this “codification movement”. They have a choice... You; Kelly, have no choice of whether or not to accept your government's laws. But, every country that constitutes the UN CHOOSES to conform to the agreements that form what are considered 'laws' (in name only).

www.un.org/law/ilc/index.html

Does this make sense? So, when Slobodan Milosevic was arrested and tried at the Hague, a) the military group that arrested him was part of the UN, and thus CHOSE to follow the agreements (laws) of the UN, and b) the countries that form the UN have agreed that the findings of the international court will speak for them and they will allow findings to mean something to their countries.

Does this make sense?

Kelly, seriously - people get JDs on this topic alone. They get doctorates on this subject, there are books and books written about it and have been written for probably 100 years now, and no one that knows even the most basic info on this would ever suggest that there's really such a thing as a true "international law" as you are suggesting.

<Hey Andrew, I got a quesyion back for you, one which sums up my answer to your nonsense pretty well: Why was Slobodan Milosevic arrested and put on trial by an international court?>

Here, Kelly. Your wish has been granted: uspolitics.tribe.net/thread/...0e7d0a39