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turkey is getting better?

topic posted Sun, March 4, 2012 - 3:43 PM by  Tandy
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Tandy
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  • Re: turkey is getting better?

    Sun, March 4, 2012 - 5:30 PM
    <Turkey achieves a growth in rates of graduates, OECD report says
    September 13, 2011

    Turkey achieves a growth in rates of higher-education attainment while exhibiting significant gender disparities in education, according to a recent report prepared by the Organization for Economic Development and Cooperation, or OECD.

    The report also showed that high school graduation rates increased between 1995 and 2009 in Turkey. The most significant increases since 1995 were reported in Austria, the Czech Republic, the Slovak Republic, Switzerland and Turkey, where the annual growth in high school graduation rates was more than 8 percent.

    In addition, the report looked at gender inequalities in different countries when it comes to education. In Japan and Turkey, more men than women graduate from institutes of higher education.

    Interestingly, the report also showed that in Turkey, Finland and Japan, students from modest backgrounds do far better than expected. The proportion of these students is between 10 and 15 percentage points higher than the OECD average.>


    With phenomenal economic growth rates Turkey has been experiencing the last 10 years, you can expect that success in education to continue.

    The fact that compulsory education years are being reduced will in no way slow that growth down, a growing amount in Turkey CHOOSE to not only graduate from school but from University.

    In about another 20-30 years if Turkey continues on the path its been on since the Muslim AKP have been in power this last 10 years with spectacular economic growth power -

    www.google.co.uk/publicdata/explore

    then it will be one of the first developing countries, before both China and India, to achieve a western level of gdp per capita,

    I guess the above story about giving some the optional alternative to have a religious education is deeply worrying to people who hate Islam like yourself Tandy. But for the many and growing amount of Turks who choose to have a quality Education its no big deal.

    Italy and Spain are also a very religious places and have many religious schools, i have no issue with that. I dont hate Christianity, i dont hate Islam.

    Funny enough some of the very best schools in London, UK, which reach the highest standard of Education are religious Christian schools and are highly sought after, with places very hard to obtain.

    My own boys are lucky enough to go to one such school, which is ranked 300 out of the countries 17,000 schools primary schools, in other words in the very top 0.18% of the countries schools, better than many private fee charging schools. They are HEAVILY oversubscribed by both religious and not so religious people and people all around this area bend over backwards to try and get their children in.


    By the way in terms of average educational standards the US is sinking pretty fast, id be quite concerned about that if i was you. -

    <American Student Performance Slips Again; China Is Number One

    Every three years, the Program for International Student Assessment, known as PISA, is administered to 15-year-old students by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. This year, high school students in Shanghai led the pack, with American students ranking average to below average by when compared to their global peers (full report, PDF).

    www.good.is/post/america...s-number-one/ >


    In contrast to that Turkey is constantly improving its educational performance, in fact surprisingly Turkeys average OECD score is really not that far off Americas now if you check out the stats -

    nces.ed.gov/pubs2011/2011004.pdf

    I bet they where a million miles apart 20 years ago. At this rate it shouldn't take that long before Turkey overtakes, unless of course you do something about the planed drop in educational spending over the next 3 - 10 years.

    Really Tandy, keep trying to say Turkey is sinking when its rising quicker than a mount Pompeii erupting, you'll give Turks a damn good laugh who can see the country rising faster than China and India in many ways.



    >








    • Re: turkey is getting better?

      Sun, March 4, 2012 - 5:31 PM
      and by the way while there is a disparity in gender on education in Turkey, you can see from the OECD stats that its really not that big.
      • Re: turkey is getting better?

        Sun, March 4, 2012 - 11:10 PM
        oh and by the way, your article mentions that Erdogan himself attended a religious school in Turkey. This is how wiki lists his education -

        <Brought up in a observant Muslim family, he graduated from Kasımpaşa Piyale primary school in 1965 and from Istanbul Religious Vocational High School in 1973 (İmam Hatip school). He received his high school diploma from Eyüp High School. He studied Business Administration at Aksaray School of Economics and Commercial Sciences (now it is known as Marmara University's Faculty of Economics and Administrative Sciences).[6]>

        so at a time when Turkey was still very much a poor developing country in the late 70s, he went to University and got a degree after his foundation at religious school. Well if that's the results religious schools can achieve, again, giving Turkish citizens the option and choice about that while general education standards are rising fast is nothing to be feared.

        You might also want to note the the religious Turkish Gulen schools in Turkey and the region, which are very popular, and growing, actively promote the idea of tolerance, cross religious dialogue and peace.

        In fact there so popular globally that you have some in America now. And guess what, Obama recently met 4 of there award wining students who had won first place in a national competion in science, technology, engineering and mathematics, from a Gulen inspired school in Washington to congratulate them on wining -

        <Four students from the Pinnacle Academy, established by Turkish entrepreneurs in the greater Washington, D.C., area, were at the White House on Monday to present their project, which took first place in the National Engineers Week Future City Competition in the capital’s metropolitan area in February.On Monday President Barack Obama hosted the White House Science Fair to honor the winners of a series of competitions in science, technology, engineering and mathematics

        gulenschools.org/component...-students>

        Not bad eh Tandy ? Maybe if you had kids yourself you should think about sending them ? After all as i say my kids go to a Christian school here in London and there doing outstandingly well, so hell, why not tolerant Muslim school for non Muslims too with results like that.

        I really think you need to re-think your non rosey, dark nightmarish and paranoid vision of these people. Its just so negative, not good for the soul you know to hold all that negativity. lol.




      • Re: turkey is getting better?

        Mon, March 5, 2012 - 7:28 PM
        so you are going to ignore this? ------The goals of an education reform bill introduced by the Islamic party of Turkey's Premier Recep Tayyip Erdogan have been characterised by opposition parties as aiming to halve the length of compulsory schooling to promote more Koranic schools and veil wearing.

        and the rest of it? you are just ignoring this? why?

        what about this one? ------One of the most well-known of the more than a hundred Turkish journalists in prison, Mustafa Balbay, has been in isolation for a year,

        you are ignoring that too? that is turkey getting better?

        @andrew------What a GREAT country! Something to be proud of and spend time defending...

        more rosy thinking.

        @elo-------As to turning "more muslim" clearly that's a problem for those who dislike like Muslims

        no it has nothing to do with muslims it has to do with a country that is turnign more fundimentalist. they are already all muslim so that has nothing to do with it because they are an all muslim country already.

        ------would it be a problem for you if Israel was turning more "Jewish" ? that in itself is borderline racist isnt it ?

        israel is turning more fundimentalist jewish isnt it? havent we all said that this sucks? but then again they just decided that the fundimentalist jews have to be in the army now.

        -----As the second link i didnt notice that. Clearly, like many other countries in the region including Israel Turkey has some way to go yet on human rights

        elo they are jailing more people not less. so when you say that they are joining europe you mean excpet for freedom of speech? hahaha

        ----But if you read EU commission reports Turkey is clearly improving on Human rights.

        see? he is pushing his rosy outlook. he elo look at this -----In 2008, Turkey ranked second after Russia in the list of countries with the largest number of human rights violation cases open at the ECtHR, with 9,000 cases pending as of August 2008.

        so they really had nowhere to go but down.

        and this one? -----Two years ago the government announced a ‘democratic opening' to extend greater rights to all of Turkey's ethnic and religious minority groups, easing restrictions on broadcasts in minority languages such as Kurdish. Today the government has replaced that with an approach that bans, suppresses and jails its critics,” she wrote.

        that is getting better? improving? from what to where? sounds like their changes are in words only. torture is on the rise as is jailings for political prisoners. that is better? so what that they are the second to the worst and they have improved a little? thats like saying that a family with starving kids got a potato today so they are not as badly starving right?

        --------At least the situation in Turkey is improving substantially

        substantially? more people tortured? more people in jail for political reasons?

        --------Ive already posted LOTS of information on improved human rights situation on Turkey which Tandy likes to improve.

        yeah improved compared to absolutely second worst in europe. so great!

        ----Things were worse under the military government than they have been under the Muslim AKP, but then you dont like Islam do you ?

        i have no problme with any religion. just fundimentalist religious assholes.


        • Re: turkey is getting better?

          Tue, March 6, 2012 - 12:33 AM
          your hatred for Islam is knows no bounds.

          The question posed by them two articles is - has the Muslim party rule of Turkey reduced the quality of education in Turkey and harmed human rights ?

          The answer to both them questions is a no. Ive proved the case on education comprehensively in this thread. I have also proven that Human rights in Turkey have improved since the AKP have been in power this last 10 years.

          I have proven this by both the independent and highly respected EU progress report, which ive quoted to you several times, and the UN commission on human rights report. Yet you want to ingore that hard evidence because you dislike Islam.

          In response to that evidence you quote the opposition party in Turkey !!! lol, hard not to laugh at tht, like the opposition party is supposed to be some an indpendant source as compared to the EU and UN.

          The opposition is well know for corruption, when they were in power large scale torture was carried out by them, human rights abuses and just about everything was worse.

          The only thing you two have on Turkey is the opposition parties bitterness because they have been pushed out of power for 10 years and your own very obvious dislike of Islam.

          Whatever, you really have nothing to say that's worth listening to. When your confronted with real evidence like ive posted above, like the UN commission for human rights, like the EU progress report, you just ignore it. Your paranoia about Islam is if anything funny, though its also a pretty sad pathetic site. . Bye.
          • Re: turkey is getting better?

            Tue, March 6, 2012 - 1:15 AM
            I will just say one last thing though before i depart this thread for good. Of coure id like to see Turkeys human rights record improve even faster than it has this last 10 years. But the key two facts are this. 1 that all good sources like the EU and UN say it is improving. 2 that its the Muslim AKP pushing that improvement on a reluctant Judaical system, and that Judical system which tries to block reform was put in place by the previous military dictatorship. However, as noted by the EU, they are making progress.

            You just ignore that evidence and instead quote the opposition party and vent your obvious dislike of Islam. . Whats more you both show shocking hypocrisy in ignoring torture and human rights abuses committed by Israel. There is no point debating with that shocking level of hypocrisy and ignorance. You'd be better of expressing your hatred of Islam at an American tea party where other extremist would happily join in with you.

            good luck with that, because Turkey is heading places fast as most people know. Now Im not wasting anymore time with this.
          • Re: turkey is getting better?

            Tue, March 6, 2012 - 7:47 PM
            ----your hatred for Islam is knows no bounds.

            sometimes i get angry at your lies and saying such stupid charges but today i just laugh at you.

            -------Ive proved the case on education comprehensively in this thread.

            to yourself. which is all that you need anyway. hahaha

            ------I have also proven that Human rights in Turkey have improved since the AKP have been in power this last 10 years.

            rosy rosy rosy. yes they have gotten better. from being the second worst to still the second worst but not as bad as the first worst.

            ------I have proven this by both the independent and highly respected EU progress report, which ive quoted to you several times

            while ignoring anything that goes against your beliefs. i show you two links and instead of speaking to those points you just try to change hte subject and as usual not talk about points that show your beliefs to be wrong.

            -------Yet you want to ingore that hard evidence because you dislike Islam.

            hahaha. yes! you are a psychic! now get me the lottery numbers for here in ny please. its somethig like 125 million dollars.

            --------In response to that evidence you quote the opposition party in Turkey !!! lol, hard not to laugh at tht, like the opposition party is supposed to be some an indpendant source as compared to the EU and UN.

            see what you do? you talk about the source but not about the content.

            -------and your own very obvious dislike of Islam.

            hahaha.

            ------I will just say one last thing though before i depart this thread for good.

            hahaha

            -------1 that all good sources like the EU and UN say it is improving.

            well then that should be good enough for me! its still the second worst they still jail reporters and are thing to make secular schooling harder to do and they are still torturing and pushing down other religions but as long as they are getting a little better that is good enough for you? hahaha. ok buddy! hahaha

            -------You just ignore that evidence and instead quote the opposition party and vent your obvious dislike of Islam. .

            hahaha. that you never respond to any other persons information really is funny. that and your chargest of bigotry. hahaha

            -------Whats more you both show shocking hypocrisy in ignoring torture and human rights abuses committed by Israel.

            you mean it gets better? now i am ignoring israels human rights records? hahaha. have we ever talked about it? i learned about turkey because you said how much better its getting and i thought that i would look into it because i didnt know anyting about it. then i saw how you are just again showing a rosy outlook. as usual. its the second worse and not getting better in any meaningful way.

            -------You'd be better of expressing your hatred of Islam

            hahaha
            -------good luck with that, because Turkey is heading places fast as most people know. Now Im not wasting anymore time with this.

            hahaha

            ------Much like the Christian.....err......I mean the Republican party in our own country wants to issue voutures so that the Govt. pays for religious schooling. Christian Republicans in our own country seek advantage for their Christian tribe via legislation as well, it is just part of the Democratic process we all need to be aware of.

            hahaha. jeff dont tell elo about that. it will break his heart!

            @jeff--------One can point to isolated specific incidents, mistakes, corruption, religious zeal, and even........jailing people without trial in the United States as well.

            jeff you are comparing apples and oranges. sure we have people jailed without trial. they are called terrorists. terrorists found on a battlefiled. i bet more then a few are not guilty enough to be at gitmo but then you look at the hundredand some that are in jail in turkey and if you listened to the forign minister in his interview a few days ago on npr you will hear him say that these people are mostly criminals. all of them? they just happen to be reporters who speak out against the country? and about that school issue jeff he is doing that because i guess he can. you really think that it will go back?

            --------As a matter of fact, I could paint you a picture showing that the US was worse under Bush than things are currently in Turkey.

            not by comparing apples and apples you cant.

            --------Just because increased conservatism sucks for us progressives, it is not a sign that Muslims can't handle Democracy.

            well as soon as i see a country that goes more conservative that turns around i will be as hopeful as you are.

            ------Because if it were, then obviously us white people here in the US can't handle Democracy, we are just not ready for it are we Tandy?? :)~

            i get your point for sure but we have a constitution that really protects us more then their constitution does and more then that we dont have such a large group of conservatives to that degree. idont like how our conservatives are moving forward but i see no reason to fear for my country as much as i see the mass of conservatives in turkey running in a bad direction.

            -------The US incarcerates more people than any country in the world. I guess that means we don't deserve Democracy.

            apples and organges. they jail reporters for being anti goverment. we jail people for felonies. how many reporters are in jail for being reporters jeff? that statement was beneath you. was that an elo guest post?

            • Re: turkey is getting better?

              Wed, March 7, 2012 - 10:54 AM
              <<------Much like the Christian.....err......I mean the Republican party in our own country wants to issue voutures so that the Govt. pays for religious schooling. Christian Republicans in our own country seek advantage for their Christian tribe via legislation as well, it is just part of the Democratic process we all need to be aware of.

              hahaha. jeff dont tell elo about that. it will break his heart! <<

              You are diverting attention from my point Tandy. Your original claim is that Muslims in the ME are not ready for Democracy, that they can't handle it. You asked for even one example, we provided the example of Turkey. You originally overstated your case regarding Turkey, trying to make them out as more extreme than they currently are in order to bolster your argument. You have since scaled back your claims and you are closer to reality, but that ultimately does damage to your original argument, ie, Muslims in the region are not ready for Democracy. You are still working under that paradigm, but your evidence for that has become lessened, as is demonstrated by my correlation with what is happpening in Turkey with what Republicans are trying to do in our own country.

              <<--------As a matter of fact, I could paint you a picture showing that the US was worse under Bush than things are currently in Turkey.

              not by comparing apples and apples you cant. <<

              Yes I can, I can compare death to death. Less perpetuated by Turkey. As a matter of fact, one can easily make the case that the US is the most violent and war-like nation in the entire world.

              <<but we have a constitution that really protects us more then their constitution does

              Sure, but it took us over 200 years to get past the inequities we put upon our own people here in the US. We can't forget our own history of repressing blacks, women, minorities, and gay people. Do you think our own constitution deserved the chance to live up to those ideals? Absolutely. Same thing for Turkey.

              <<we dont have such a large group of conservatives to that degree.

              Sure we do, the evangelicals in this country are certainly of that degree. Just look at the crazy shit that comes out of Santorum's mouth, an actual credible US GOP candidate for President. If a Muslim president were to say the shit Santorum does, you would be pointing to those words as a demonstration that the ME is nto ready for Democracy.

              <<. idont like how our conservatives are moving forward but i see no reason to fear for my country as much as i see the mass of conservatives in turkey running in a bad direction.

              Why? No worse than US life under Bush.

              <<how many reporters are in jail for being reporters jeff?

              I may have missed that story, show me the link please.

              <<that statement was beneath you.

              Speaking on US incarcertaion rates is "beneath" me? That does not even make sense Tandy.
              • Re: turkey is getting better?

                Sun, March 11, 2012 - 12:08 AM
                <Your original claim is that Muslims in the ME are not ready for Democracy, that they can't handle it.>

                Yeah - saying that it's a foregone conclusion that they are not able to commit themselves to Democracy is not correct. They want Democracy...in theory. The problem is that the more religious of them will twist democracy where the mass of those that DO NOT want a more theocratic government are cowed into not moving against it. As I think of it - what one MENA government is compatible with the kind of Democracy that we recognize?

                <You asked for even one example, we provided the example of Turkey.>

                Turkey is part of Asia. And, no matter what Tandy is trying to say or her beliefs or agenda, it's moving away from Secularism in my opinion, BECAUSE of the fundamentalist influence.

                <Do you think our own constitution deserved the chance to live up to those ideals? Absolutely. Same thing for Turkey.>

                So the fuck what? Tell that to the over 100 reporters in Turkish jails. I don't give credit so easily.

                <Why? No worse than US life under Bush.>

                Except, or course, Shria is far, far worse than Bush's version of Conservative Christianity. He does not believe in stoning people, as I recall. He does not want to force women to women to be living under a bedsheet.

                <I may have missed that story, show me the link please.>

                Dude. Y'r kidding, right? That's the #1 complaint of EVERYONE when talking about Turkish civil rights issues.

                "More conservative? Sure."

                vs.

                "I don't think things are getting worse in Turkey"

                So...you don't consider; knowing the track record of conservative Islam, a "More conservative" Turkey to be "getting worse"? Really?




                • Re: turkey is getting better?

                  Mon, March 12, 2012 - 11:07 AM
                  <<Yeah - saying that it's a foregone conclusion that they are not able to commit themselves to Democracy is not correct. They want Democracy...in theory. The problem is that the more religious of them will twist democracy where the mass of those that DO NOT want a more theocratic government are cowed into not moving against it.

                  Ultimately my thinking on this is the following: 1.) The western world carved up the Middle East and installed dictators and kings in the wake of WWII, in some cases creating a country where there was none. 2.) This western installed system fomented and lent power to Islamist movement in the region and did so in two ways. a.) by giving direct support to Islamists governments such as Saudi Arabia. b.) by installing secular dictators who belong to the minority religious sect (Sunni vs Shia), this creates a situation where the only seemingly credible opposition to these dictators lies with the Islamist opposition groups thereby elevating these groups in the eyes of the people. 3.) The only way to address this is to overtun this old paradigm, one where the western world has been complicit in fomenting religious fundamentalism in the region. 4.) It is my belief that while there may be many problems along the way, the only path forward in addressing the Islamitization of the region is via Demcoracy. 5.) And while it may take some time for the region to adjust and live up to the ideals of Democracy, it is a necessary step forward. Of course remembering that it took our own nation a couple of hundred years to approach living up to the sprit of the ideals in our constitution.

                  <<what one MENA government is compatible with the kind of Democracy that we recognize?

                  I have no illusions that we should expect or impose western style Democracy upon a Middle East nation. They must find their own path to Democracy that is compatible with their culture and values.

                  <<<You asked for even one example, we provided the example of Turkey.>

                  Turkey is part of Asia.<<

                  Yes, Muslim countries lie outside of the M.E. And?

                  <<<<Do you think our own constitution deserved the chance to live up to those ideals? Absolutely. Same thing for Turkey.>

                  So the fuck what?<<

                  No need to lose your temper, I thought we were having a civil conversation. That said, my point is that Democracy is never a straight or neat pathway.

                  <<<Why? No worse than US life under Bush.>

                  Except, or course, Shria is far, far worse than Bush's version of Conservative Christianity.<<

                  Not by much. Be that as it may, Turkey is not installing Sharia law. Was Bush creating Christian law with his efforts to create a school voucher program? One basically allowing the US Govt. to subsidize children being allowed to go to Christian schools. So while Turkey may be changing their laws so the requirements for secular school are shortened, Bush and Republicans want the US Govt. to directly fund religious schooling.

                  <<He does not believe in stoning people, as I recall.

                  We can't speak of Islam as if it is a homogeneous group, thereby attributing the worst of the worst of Islamitization to the entire religion, of which there are many differing sects and beliefs.

                  <<<I may have missed that story, show me the link please.>

                  Dude. Y'r kidding, right?<<

                  So......where is the link?

                  <<<So...you don't consider; knowing the track record of conservative Islam, a "More conservative" Turkey to be "getting worse"? Really?

                  It is all relative.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: turkey is getting better?

                    Thu, March 15, 2012 - 3:17 PM
                    <No need to lose your temper,>

                    HA! Jeff, nothing that you will EVER do here on Tribe will ever cause me to lose my temper. One has to care to allow such an effect.

                    <That said, my point is that Democracy is never a straight or neat pathway.>

                    That's a cop-out. A total cop-out. By this definition, you can never be wrong, only right perhaps at some point in the future. Democracy can be a nightmare. Democracy can lead to world wars. Democracy is often WORSE than what's going on in Libya or Syria or Egypt. Look at the big "?" that are these countries. Been following Libya? Man....that could go either way. Egypt, too. Syria? Who the fuck knows. The good thing about a dictator is that they can enforce some kind of peace - at the cost to the people. I'm not saying that a dictator is better, but it's not always worse.

                    <Not by much.>

                    Really? Sharia is not worse "by much"? Even nominal sharia limits the opportunity for women. Even nominal sharia limits the rights of non-Muslims or lay-Muslims to drink what they want when they want it or eat what they want when they want. That's "No by much"? Really? Seriously? [Rosy]

                    <? One basically allowing the US Govt. to subsidize children being allowed to go to Christian schools.>

                    Jeff, you can't make this so easy for me. Schools subsidised by government money STILL have to follow the federal and state mandated education rules & laws. You really think that it's even CLOSE there?

                    <So while Turkey may be changing their laws so the requirements for secular school are shortened, Bush and Republicans want the US Govt. to directly fund religious schooling.>

                    Mr. Apple, again, I'd like to introduce you to Mr. Orange.

                    <It is all relative.>

                    To what? To how bad it can get? From sucking to stoning? Yeah...it's all relative.

                    <But what is their record in comparison to Muslim countries and the MENA region?>

                    Doesn't matter if that's not part of the story. We're not comparing them to Syria. We're comparing them from where they are today and where Europe is today. Are they trying to join the EU or some Middle Ages MENA Block? You are trying to AGAIN compare apples & oranges.

                    <Is it really fair to compare them to European countries that have had 100s of years as a head start?>

                    OF COURSE. THAT is what the litmus is! They are trying to join the EU! They must thus be compared to other apples! The EU is the other apple!

                    <The same thing happens in our own country, it is the messy part of Democracy.>

                    HA! Ooooooooooooooooooooooook. Yes. 100 reporters in jail surely is a "messy part of Democracy". Way to mitigate that kind of horrorshow.

                    <<<I'm sure that you're right, Jeff. But, I can't think of one in this position that HAS done it... Can you?>

                    So, you can't name one? Got it. Didn't think so. That's my point. I don't care WHY. The reality? There ain't one.

                    Oh...wait. Israel. Sorry, I guess there's one in the region... If you want to value imperfection, I guess then that Israel has to be the most perfect! Thanks Jeff!

                    <They must find their own path to Democracy that is compatible with their culture and values.>

                    That's mighty white of you, but considering that their "culture and values" are of clan & tribal relationship, they values mean revenge & society-wide installed racism... I really don't think that at this point in evolution we should consider stoning people to death & caning women is OK with me or should be OK anywhere. By your argument, 'honor killings' is something that we should be OK with. I will remind you of what you wrote, "They must find their own path to Democracy that is compatible with their culture and values." If through democracy they find it OK to do the thing that I just described and WORSE, y'r fine with that? HA!

                    • Re: turkey is getting better?

                      Fri, March 16, 2012 - 1:27 PM
                      <<<That said, my point is that Democracy is never a straight or neat pathway.>

                      That's a cop-out<<

                      That is a fact.

                      << By this definition, you can never be wrong, only right perhaps at some point in the future.

                      Wrong. I am speaking of things have a forward moving trend with ups and downs in between. Under this definition I can be wrong IF there is a sustained backward moving trend.

                      <<Democracy can lead to world wars.

                      When has Democracy been guilty of leading to a world war?

                      <<The good thing about a dictator is that they can enforce some kind of peace - at the cost to the people

                      There is nothing good about dictatorial regimes. A lack of liberty for the sake of peace is no peace at all in my opinion. Or have you forgotten that we aquired our own democracy by way of violence?

                      <<Schools subsidised by government money STILL have to follow the federal and state mandated education rules & laws. You really think that it's even CLOSE there?

                      I never indicated that they are directly comparable. What I am saying is that this example is a demonstration of religious belief inspiring legislation and laws governing schools in our own country.

                      <<
                      <But what is their record in comparison to Muslim countries and the MENA region?>

                      Doesn't matter if that's not part of the story. <<

                      Who decided that it is "not part of the story"? What is the "story" you are speaking of?

                      <<We're comparing them from where they are today and where Europe is today

                      Who is this 'we" you are speaking of? Are you trying to assert that the "story" = only your apples and oranges comparison?

                      <<You are trying to AGAIN compare apples & oranges.

                      Sorry Andrew, but comparing one Muslim country to another is an apples to apples comparison.

                      <<They are trying to join the EU!

                      So what. The fact that they are even being considered for the EU is an indication of how far the country has progressed.

                      <<but considering that their "culture and values" are of clan & tribal relationship, they values mean revenge & society-wide installed racism

                      Our own country engaged in institutionalized racism for most of our nations history. Does it then follow that we should adopt another cultures form of Democracy? Of course not.

                      <<I really don't think that at this point in evolution we should consider stoning people to death & caning women is OK

                      Where the fuck did you get that idiotic straw man argument? Who said that is ok? Are you asserting that this kind of action is predominant in Turkey? Or are you attributing the worst of Islamic beliefs to the entirety of the Muslim world?

                      <<By your argument, 'honor killings' is something that we should be OK with.

                      You have got to be fucking kidding me Andrew, seriously? The above has to be the most convoluted and idiotic straw man argument I have ever heard. Obviously "honor killings" are not compatable with the idea of Democracy, and if this were to be institutionalized in Turkey, that would mean they are no longer on the "path to Democracy" would it?

                      << If through democracy they find it OK to do the thing that I just described and WORSE, y'r fine with that? HA!

                      I need a pair of hip waders, the bullshit is getting deep. LOL! :)~
                      • Re: turkey is getting better?

                        Fri, March 16, 2012 - 3:38 PM
                        >>Are you asserting that this kind of action is predominant in Turkey? Or are you attributing the worst of Islamic beliefs to the entirety of the Muslim world?

                        It's not necessarily unheard of.

                        Turkey grapples with spike in 'honor' killings
                        Recent government figures suggest the murders of women – including so-called honor killings – increased 14-fold in seven years, hitting nearly 1,000 in the first seven months of 2009.
                        www.csmonitor.com/World/201...r-killings

                        Women told: 'You have dishonoured your family, please kill yourself'
                        As Turkey cracks down on 'honour killings', women are now told to commit suicide
                        www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...373.html

                        Honor Killings Target Turkey's LGBT Citizens
                        www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...35.html

                        >>Obviously "honor killings" are not compatable with the idea of Democracy, and if this were to be institutionalized in Turkey, that would mean they are no longer on the "path to Democracy" would it?

                        Why not, if the decision to implement honor killings came after a democratic vote? I'm not saying that would happen, but such is a pitfall of 51% mob rule democracy.

                        Good thing we live in a constitutional republic, not a democracy.
                        • Re: turkey is getting better?

                          Tue, March 20, 2012 - 11:50 AM
                          <<>>Are you asserting that this kind of action is predominant in Turkey? Or are you attributing the worst of Islamic beliefs to the entirety of the Muslim world?

                          It's not necessarily unheard of. >>

                          Not being "unheard of" is quite different than it being predominant or common. For instance, sheep fucking is not unheard of here in the US. Which ultimately speaks little of the predominating mindset in our country, every culture has their lunatic fringe.

                          <<Why not, if the decision to implement honor killings came after a democratic vote? I'm not saying that would happen, but such is a pitfall of 51% mob rule democracy.

                          Civil rights are the core of what I would consider to be successful Democracies.

                          <<Good thing we live in a constitutional republic, not a democracy.

                          Our Republic is a form of Democracy.
                      • Re: turkey is getting better?

                        Fri, March 16, 2012 - 5:46 PM
                        -------Obviously "honor killings" are not compatable with the idea of Democracy, and if this were to be institutionalized in Turkey, that would mean they are no longer on the "path to Democracy" would it?

                        i will let you two duke it out but i read that and i said the same thing kinda except that if the country allowed honor killings legally that would be part of hte democracy too. turkey allows reporters to be in prison with no charges and that is part of their democracy. they allow people to die mysteriously in prison in their democracy. this is all done legally. doesnt this mean that its part of their path to democracy?
                        • Re: turkey is getting better?

                          Sat, March 17, 2012 - 4:01 AM
                          the above conversation is absurd. Murder rates in America are around twice what they are in Turkey now,-

                          chartsbin.com/view/1454

                          lets just say for the sake of argument here that most of them murders in America are muggings.

                          You two having a conversation about whether Turks would vote democratically to allow honor killings makes less sense than me saying will Americans vote to allow murder in muggings, after all, the US has around twice the murder rate. Whats more your actually serious about it, lol. I mean for real, what would you say if i said will Americans vote to legalize gangland killings ?



        • Re: turkey is getting better?

          Tue, March 6, 2012 - 5:29 PM
          <<The goals of an education reform bill introduced by the Islamic party of Turkey's Premier Recep Tayyip Erdogan have been characterised by opposition parties as aiming to halve the length of compulsory schooling to promote more Koranic schools and veil wearing.

          Much like the Christian.....err......I mean the Republican party in our own country wants to issue voutures so that the Govt. pays for religious schooling. Christian Republicans in our own country seek advantage for their Christian tribe via legislation as well, it is just part of the Democratic process we all need to be aware of.

          <<you are ignoring that too? that is turkey getting better?

          You have to analyze the country as a whole. One can point to isolated specific incidents, mistakes, corruption, religious zeal, and even........jailing people without trial in the United States as well. As a matter of fact, I could paint you a picture showing that the US was worse under Bush than things are currently in Turkey.

          <<israel is turning more fundimentalist jewish isnt it? havent we all said that this sucks? but then again they just decided that the fundimentalist jews have to be in the army now.

          Just because increased conservatism sucks for us progressives, it is not a sign that Muslims can't handle Democracy. Because if it were, then obviously us white people here in the US can't handle Democracy, we are just not ready for it are we Tandy?? :)~

          <<elo they are jailing more people not less.

          The US incarcerates more people than any country in the world. I guess that means we don't deserve Democracy.
        • Re: turkey is getting better?

          Wed, March 7, 2012 - 12:48 AM
          <and the rest of it? you are just ignoring this? why?>

          Tandy, when you're here long enough you will find out that Elo will only look at things that confirm his already-set beliefs, and when he does any research, it is to confirm his opinion, NOT to learn or to find out the veracity of his beliefs.

          <you are ignoring that too? that is turkey getting better?>

          "substantially", apparently, according to him. HA! To him that is "substantially".

          <more rosy thinking.>

          Um...that was sarcasm.

          <In 2008, Turkey ranked second after Russia in the list of countries with the largest number of human rights violation cases open at the ECtHR, with 9,000 cases pending as of August 2008.>

          No shit? That is "substantially" better? What the fuck was it before?

          <yeah improved compared to absolutely second worst in europe. so great!>

          Yep. But, don't expect him to ever substantiate any of his claims or to respond to any claims that you make with any substantive research. He just doesn't do it. As soon as you push him there, he'll whine a lot and leave the conversation. It's happened a million times.

          <your hatred for Islam is knows no bounds.>

          See? That's his go-to. SURELY you believe what you do because you are racist. That can be the ONLY option!

          <The question posed by them two articles is - has the Muslim party rule of Turkey reduced the quality of education in Turkey and harmed human rights ?>

          Let's see - let's take them one at a time:

          1) "has the Muslim party rule of Turkey reduced the quality of education in Turkey" Um...if this story is true, then OBVIOUSLY "the quality of education in Turkey" has taken a hit.
          2) "armed human rights" Um...over a hundred reporters in jail? Thousands of other political prisoners? Elo? You wanna take this one?

          <The answer to both them questions is a no.>

          HA! Reduction in education is no big deal, and...because human rights have "improved", well..that's enough for him! No matter that thousands of political prisoners are in jail and over a hundred reporters join them. BUT! TO ELO, because it is "improved", that's ...wait...how is that anything? How the fuck is that "improved", and even if it IS...how is that anything to be proud about?


    • Re: turkey is getting better?

      Mon, March 5, 2012 - 12:04 AM
      <Really Tandy, keep trying to say Turkey is sinking when its rising quicker than a mount Pompeii erupting, you'll give Turks a damn good laugh who can see the country rising faster than China and India in many ways.>

      Elo, I really don't like to see you put in such a difficult situation. I mean, to see those links and be forced to have to come up with some other information so as to not have to deal with those realities? I mean...no response to these stories?

      Wait...lemme read ahead. Maybe you commented.

      Nope. You talk about education...but not about the subject of that link. You know...the one pointing to how Turkey his turning more Muslim? How the link between the secular and non-secular is slowly being wrung tighter and tighter...?

      How about the second one? The one about jailed journalists? I heard about that one on NPR last week. The foreign minister said that they were all in jail because they were all criminals who did something ...besides... just being journalists.

      What a GREAT country! Something to be proud of and spend time defending...
      • Re: turkey is getting better?

        Mon, March 5, 2012 - 7:25 AM
        the first link was clearly about Education, didnt you understand that ? As to turning "more muslim" clearly that's a problem for those who dislike like Muslims, not so much for Muslims, would it be a problem for you if Israel was turning more "Jewish" ? that in itself is borderline racist isnt it ?

        As the second link i didnt notice that. Clearly, like many other countries in the region including Israel Turkey has some way to go yet on human rights.

        Not as much as Egypt mind who America supported in that repression for decades with huge billion pound payouts to SCAF.

        But if you read EU commission reports Turkey is clearly improving on Human rights.

        By the way Andrew how do you feel about widespread torture that is conducted by Israel ? what a great country to be defending hey ?

        At least the situation in Turkey is improving substantially, not so sure the same could be said of Isreal, be interesting to see some stats on that. Ive already posted LOTS of information on improved human rights situation on Turkey which Tandy likes to improve.

        Things were worse under the military government than they have been under the Muslim AKP, but then you dont like Islam do you ?




        • Re: turkey is getting better?

          Wed, March 7, 2012 - 12:38 AM
          <the first link was clearly about Education, didnt you understand that ?>

          So what? You didn't respond to the actual content of the link.

          <As to turning "more muslim" clearly that's a problem for those who dislike like Muslims>

          Ha! No. Turkey is supposed to be a secular state. When Bush tried to put Christian values as attributable American traits I complained about that. Did that make me anti-Christian? No. Does this mean that I dislike the Christians? No. I'm going to start calling you ... shit, what's the name of that character, the one that lied all the time about something and then no one believed them when the shit really hit the wall? That's you. You can't call me a racist all the time and have it be at all relevant.

          <As the second link i didnt notice that. Clearly, like many other countries in the region including Israel Turkey has some way to go yet on human rights.>

          Ha. Well. That's great. "some way to go". Yeah. Looks like it...

          <But if you read EU commission reports Turkey is clearly improving on Human rights.>

          HA! Really? They are "improving"? Well. That's great. "improving". Well. That means something, right? How many reporters are in jail? Over a hundred? THAT IS IMPROVEMENT TO YOU!?

          <By the way Andrew how do you feel about widespread torture that is conducted by Israel ? what a great country to be defending hey ?>

          It sucks. Really? You tried to catch me with that one? Really?

          <At least the situation in Turkey is improving substantially>

          "substantially"? Really? Seriously? Care to substantiate that claim?

          <not so sure the same could be said of Isreal,>

          Not sure that you can say that because surely you have never looked into it.

          <be interesting to see some stats on that.>

          Be interesting to see you do some real research instead of just to paint a rosy picture.



          • Re: turkey is getting better?

            Wed, March 7, 2012 - 3:47 AM
            <You didn't respond to the actual content of the link. >

            I did. The primes seems to be that Religion increasing its influence on education in Turkey is corrupting and degrading Education in Turkey, i have shown by many examples and statistics thats not true. Also i have shown that Religion does not necessarily degrad education, in London as i have shown many of the very best schools are religious.

            <Turkey is supposed to be a secular state.>

            Turkey is still a secular state. It is different religion entering politics to not having a separation between the political process or state and religion. Your own santorum with his puke at Kennedy's speech recently also got that wrong in reverse. Kenndy said infact that many of his choices were informed by his faith.You need to better understand these subtleties as does Santorum.

            The fact that Turkey is now encouraging religious schools does not mean there is not a separation between the state and religion. A secular party could easily win the next elections in Turkey if they do well enough. In the UK, there have been lots of religious schools for many years.

            Liberal societies allow religious schools as they allow non religious. Whats important is that people have the choice and that religion is not forced onto the all the schools. That is NOT what is happening in Turkey and if it did the AKP would loose immediately at the next election.

            It would only be a problem if there was no choice. There is plenty of choice in Turkey, there is a very strong secular following in Turkey who would not send there kids to religious schools. Equally there are many religious.

            Most of Turkish people fall happily in the middle, though there are some extremes on either side of the spectrum, funny enough similar to Israel.

            <"substantially"? Really? Seriously? Care to substantiate that claim? >

            Im not being argumentative here but really Andrew if your going to talk about a subject at least do some research. I have already shown Tandy two of the best available sources for that in detail several times, but OK you have been absent from here for some time.

            Let me give you some pointers, you can do the rest, Im not going through the same process yet again.

            One is the EU progress report on Turkey. The other is the UN human rights commission report.

            Both them show that the situation has improved since the AKP has been in power, some areas have had big improvements, in others there have been slow progress but still progress.

            Now you could say that why after ten years has there not been even better progress.

            Id like to see the AKP do more now too on media and human rights. BUT and its a big but. And I WILL go out and get you research on this bit if you dispute it -

            Much of the reforms have been blocked by the same Judaical system that was put in place by the corrupt previous dictatorship that is also in bed with the military. Note too that they fought tooth and nail to block recent efforts by the AKP to make peace and improve things with the Kurds and Armenians.

            Now you and Tandy are putting forward the premise that the Muslim AKP have made these things get worse. Thats not ony not true the reverse is true.

            Things were worse under the Non Muslim dictatorship and things have been improved by the AKP.

            Now tell me specifically what part of above you dispute and we can talk about that. But start by doing some of your own research as i have and skimming the EU progress report and check some articles on the UN Human rights commission on Turkey.

            Then we can have a conversation.

            I admitted that I didn't know if things are getting worse or not recently in Isreal (though i have read reports there repressing NGOs and thats a new development), though i know for sure there is widespread torture. I admited i didnt know if the human rights situation had improved or got better.

            Yet you two are plugging a false premise on the Muslim AKP in Turkey and using laughably statements from the very corrupt opposition in Turkey to try and prove that.

            So as to the Rosy picture Andrew im sorry to say its not a picture its fact. Your nightmare propaganda however is only rooted in your mind.

            The last point i will say on this subject in Turkey is this.

            While the opposition in Turkey has a terrible history, due to there sustained collapse over the last ten years finaly over the last couple of years there have been some pretty big changes.

            They have cleaned up there party a bit and have now changed tack in opposition from those promoting nationalist secular repression, like the Mubark regime, to trying to plug liberalisim, freedom of media and human rights etc.

            While you could say on the one hand this is deeply hypocritical, to me its welcome, especialy if they further change there party and stop the corruption in it and break associations with corrupt elements of the military.

            This is because though the AKP have done fantastic things for turkey, stunning growth, improvments on human rights, education, foergin policy, etc, its not good for a country to have no effective oppostion.

            The AKP and Turkey need a decent opposition to keep it on its toes, otherwise progress may falter. For the moment Turkeys progress is obvious other than if you have a deep hostility and resentment to Islam.

            You know id have no objections to a religious Jewish party in Israel if they were not the reactionary side of Judaisium like Likud. There are many religious Jews and Rabbis in Ireal who are good people.

            The same can be said of Christianity in America, and Jane Fonda indeed has a campaign in America to stop Christianity being hijacked by the right wing. Traditionally many reforms in both America and Britain were pushed forward by progressive humanistic branches of Christianity.

            An obvious example is Martin Luther King but there are many many others. I already give you one such example in Turkey with the Gulen schools.








            • Re: turkey is getting better?

              Wed, March 7, 2012 - 3:49 AM
              and by the way non of the above says there are not some problems sometimes with religion in Turkey. However so far the AKP are not part of that, there part of the solution, as can be seen by just about everything improving in Turkey especially there spectacular growth this last 10 years -

              www.google.co.uk/publicdata/explore
              • Re: turkey is getting better?

                Wed, March 7, 2012 - 4:07 AM
                Ok as nobody in this thread seems to know the facts on this subject and Tandy is managing even to trick Jeff into thinking the situation is geting worse with her misinformation let me present the facts. I shouldnt judge Andrew by Tandy's willingness to ingore the facts though ive presented them to her at least twice before.

                The first is from the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance

                <A new report published by the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance (ECRI) on Turkey has said Turkey has made significant progress since the commission's last report on Turkey in 2005, but expressed concerns regarding some issues that still need to be addressed by the Turkish government.
                The ECRI published its latest report on Turkey on Tuesday, in which it said since the publication of the ECRI's third report on Turkey on Feb. 15, 2005, progress has been made in a number of fields covered by that report. One of the issues that the report highlighted was the ruling Justice and Development Party's (AK Party) 2009 initiative, which is intended to expand the rights of previously disadvantaged groups and communities such as Kurds, Alevis and Roma.

                Recalling that since 2009 the authorities approved the opening of a university-level Living Languages Institute, at which Kurdish and other minority languages can be studied, the report said these initiatives have helped to create a greater willingness in Turkish society to discuss the concerns of minority groups.

                Noting that steps have also been taken to improve dialogue with the Alevi and Roma communities, the report said the ECRI applauds the Turkish authorities for their decision to tackle these questions openly and through dialogue with Kurdish representatives and with society as a whole. “The ECRI strongly encourages the Turkish authorities to pursue their efforts towards peacefully resolving questions surrounding the situation of Kurds in Turkish society. It emphasizes the role of all political parties in taking the lead to make debates constructive and forward-looking,” the report said.

                The ECRI also applauded measures taken by Turkey to prevent misconduct by law enforcement officers, including towards members of minority groups. “These include considerable effort to provide human rights training to members of the security forces and to install audio and video recording equipment in interview rooms in police and gendarmerie stations, as well as to train medical staff, judges and prosecutors on how best to investigate and document cases of torture and ill treatment. Draft legislation has also been prepared to establish an independent complaints commission entrusted with dealing with complaints against police officers and gendarmes,” the report said.

                The commission also welcomed Turkey’s preparation to set up an ombudsman institution and an independent national human rights institution to review individual human rights complaints and monitor human rights in the country. Applauding the many initiatives taken by Turkey to fight discrimination and human rights, the commission also highlighted some concerns.

                “ECRI welcomes these positive developments in Turkey. However, despite the progress achieved, some issues continue to give rise to concern,” the commission said. The commission stated that there is no definition of racial discrimination in Turkish law, and comprehensive anti-discrimination legislation is not yet in place. Stating that certain provisions of the criminal code have continued to be used to punish individuals expressing peaceful views and aspirations as members of minority groups within Turkey, the report said even the peaceful expression of minority identities still seems to be perceived as a threat to the unity of the Turkish state. “Fundamental changes in the attitudes and approach of the government on such points do not yet appear to have filtered through to all levels, as shown, for example, by the still high numbers of attempts to bring prosecutions under the amended Article 301 of the Criminal Code,” the report said.

                The notorious Article 301 criminalizes insulting “the Turkish nation.” Before the current government passed an amendment to Article 301, the crime of “insulting Turkishness” was far more serious and broadly prosecuted, which led to many intellectuals being convicted for criticizing the nation and the state. But, there are complaints from European bodies that the changes in Article 301 have not substantially reduced the number of court cases in which writers or journalists have been prosecuted for their published opinions. The ECRI also urged Turkey to ratify Protocol No. 12 to the European Convention on Human Rights as soon as possible and recommended that it sign and ratify a number of international instruments related to fighting against racism and racial discrimination.

                www.todayszaman.com/newsDeta...Id.action

                >


                Just not for example <The notorious Article 301 criminalizes insulting “the Turkish nation.” Before the current government passed an amendment to Article 301, the crime of “insulting Turkishness” was far more serious and broadly prosecuted, which led to many intellectuals being convicted for criticizing the nation and the state>

                so, the Muslim AKP have made the situation better than the previous government and we can see again that Tandys assertion that they have made it is false.

                But there is more, next the EU progress report on Turkey, let me post it in another post.
                • Re: turkey is getting better?

                  Wed, March 7, 2012 - 4:37 AM
                  I'll start with a press release summary from the EU -

                  <Significant further efforts are required to guarantee fundamental rights in most areas. This relates, in particular, to freedom of expression, where the number of court cases against writers and journalists, and the restrictions on access to the Internet, raised serious concerns.

                  europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do

                  >

                  <Overall,

                  some progress was made on observance of international human rights law, notably
                  through the ratification of the OPCAT. However, a number of reforms have been outstanding
                  for several years. Legislation on human rights institutions needs to be brought fully into line
                  with UN principles


                  Civil and political rights

                  The government pursued its efforts to ensure compliance with legal safeguards to prevent
                  torture and ill-treatment and ratified the OPCAT in September 2011. The latter provides for
                  establishment of a national mechanism to prevent torture within one year and regular reports
                  on measures to implement the Protocol (See the section on observance of international human
                  rights law). EN 22 EN

                  The Council of Europe's Committee for the Prevention of Torture and Inhuman or Degrading
                  Treatment or Punishment (CPT) published the report on its fifth periodic visit to Turkey
                  19
                  .
                  The CPT noted a downward trend in both the incidence and severity of ill-treatment by law
                  enforcement officials.

                  Training courses were given to health personnel, judges and prosecutors on effective
                  investigation and documentation of torture and ill-treatment cases with a view to effective
                  implementation of the Istanbul Protocol on the investigation of torture and ill-treatment in
                  Turkey>

                  <
                  Overall,

                  good progress has been made on consolidating the principle of civilian oversight of
                  security forces. The Supreme Military Council of August 2011 was a step towards greater
                  civilian oversight of the armed forces. Civilian oversight of military expenditure was
                  tightened and a revised National Security Plan adopted. In addition, Supreme Military
                  Council decisions were opened to civilian judicial review. However, further reforms - on the
                  composition of the Supreme Military Council, military justice system and the Personnel Law
                  of the Turkish Armed Forces – are still needed. In several instances, legislation intended to
                  increase civilian oversight of the military (the Court of Accounts Law and the draft
                  Ombudsman Law) was amended in parliament, weakening such oversight. On some
                  occasions, the General Staff made comments on ongoing court cases.
                  Judicial system (see also Chapter 23 – Judiciary and fundamental rights)
                  There has been progress in the reform of the judiciary, notably with implementing the 2010
                  constitutional amendments.

                  As regards the independence of the judiciary, a Law on the High Council of Judges and
                  Prosecutors was adopted in December 2010. The government consulted the Venice
                  Commission of the Council of Europe. This law, together with the constitutional amendments
                  approved by referendum in September 2010, established a new composition of the High
                  Council

                  10
                  that is more pluralistic and representative of the judiciary as a whole. Sixteen of its
                  judicial full members (out of twenty-two) and all twelve substitutes are now elected directly
                  by judicial bodies.

                  Ministerial influence has been reduced: the Minister of Justice remains President of the High
                  Council and the Undersecretary remains an ex officio member, but as a result of the
                  enlargement of the Council, the Ministry now accounts for less than 10% of the total
                  membership

                  >

                  ec.europa.eu/enlargement..._2011_en.pdf


                  Now that is the 2011 report, I've read at least two other years reports since the AKP have been in power and its been the same story, improvement.


                  Tandys depiction of this getting worse is just a lie, based on her prejudice, bad media, and the opposition party in Turkey.

                  Now Andrew whats it going to be, are you going to just use propaganda and Tandys prejudice to make your point, and when i refute that call my vision "Rosy" in a very inane way, are you going to keep spinning a false nightmarish paranoia from your imagination and call that reality ?

                  Or are you going to start dealing in fact ? Im giving up with Tandy, i find here arguments which are steeped in prejudice really quite worthless, for the moment she is back on my ignore list, but i have some hope with you sometimes.

                  Incidentally, i have no idea if Israel is statistically worse on this issue right now or better than Turkey. What i do know for certain is that its improving in Turkey for 10 years and that the Muslim AKP have improved it, not to mention there spectacular economic improvements they have given birth to.

                  Yet i will say this about Israel -

                  1 I have no doubt that under a good moderate Israeli prime minster there is a chance that peace could be found and then occupation of the Pals and Human rights could be improved enormously in Israel, to the point that they probably have a completely clean record then.


                  2 that Turkish people and Jewish people have a long ancient history of positive co-operation compared to most cultures in the world, Turkish Ottomon was a lifeline for hundreds of years to the Jews, and Jewish people contributed substantially to the intellectual and creative development of there culture, and that there is every reason to believe that if the Israeli Pal situation was cracked, there could be an extremely positive relationship indeed between the rapidly rising Turkey and developed Israel.

                  Now surely that's something not worth fighting for, but at least pushing for and believing in.




                • Re: turkey is getting better?

                  Wed, March 7, 2012 - 10:57 AM
                  <<Ok as nobody in this thread seems to know the facts on this subject and Tandy is managing even to trick Jeff into thinking the situation is geting worse

                  I don't think things are getting worse in Turkey, she has convinced me of no such thing. More conservative? Sure. A party that is on par with the religiousity of the Republicans in our own country? Absolutely. Becoming a fundamentalist shithole? Definately not.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: turkey is getting better?

                    Wed, March 7, 2012 - 1:39 PM
                    Sorry I wasn't trying to make a dig, I'm certainly not saying Turkey is the perfect country or anything, fare from it, but on just about every criteria from Judicial reform, to human rights, to democracy, to economic growth, to relations with its minorities its improving, and on some things improving enormously.

                    Yes the AKP are a bit culturally conservative, they put up taxs on alchool for example, by quite a bit, which was not popular with all Turks. But I think we have to be careful how we brand religion.

                    You see this is where i think the comparison with the Republicans end. The AKP are very different to Santorum. . The AKP are culturally conservative in terms of values, but in terms of governance their highly competent. On every aspect the Muslim AKP have improved things. The right of the Repblicans can be very dumb and incompetent in many aspects

                    On just about every aspect the republicans damaged America and dragged its name through the mud. They virtually destroyed the economy, after 3 years its only just getting back on its feet and America now has a huge debt that will take over a decade to get under control. They started some very questionable wars, which resulted in over a million dead in Iraq, gave America a really bad name around the world, and legalized torture for the first time in Americas history, as far as I am aware . They pushed up absurd levels in inequality. Not saying the democrats are prefect, but next that they are.

                    By way of dramatic contrast the AKP have improved things enormously over the previous military dictatorship. This doesn't mean there prefect, and like any government they should be criticized. Its good for Turkey that the opposition is finally starting to get its act together a bit and change. It done that after their leader had to retire in disgrace about two years ago after a big scandle.

                    Obama is religious too. Obvious the level and way your religious has a relationship to the country you live in. In some ways Turkeys AKP have more in common with say the Kennedy administration when America was charging ahead with a kind of raw energy in a time of confident optimism, than the current incompetent Republicans who are very reactionary, yet on a cultural level maybe they have the conservatism of Ronald Reagan, though yes, of course there more religious. Again that Religiousness has to be put in context.

                    While i think there doing very well though i think its good that the opposition seem to be cleaning there act up a bit the last few years. Its always a danger when one party is in for over 10 years. Complacency can set in. The AKP are very popular, that can be a danger too. A stronger opposition will keep them on there toes. And yes of course religion mixed with politics does come with dangers.

                    But so far, so good. And many Turks think very good, you dont get voted in three times in a row for nothing.

                    Im pretty sure the MB in Egypt might struggle to do that unless they run things pretty well. There was a good Foerign Policy article that said the pattern with democracy in Muslim nations tend to show that Muslims do well at the first election but often struggle in the 2nd or 3rd. Not so with the AKP for good reason.




                    • Re: turkey is getting better?

                      Wed, March 7, 2012 - 1:47 PM
                      <<Sorry I wasn't trying to make a dig

                      No need to apologize, I did not take it as a dig. :)

                      <<but on just about every criteria from Judicial reform, to human rights, to democracy, to economic growth, to relations with its minorities its improving, and on some things improving enormously.

                      A country can make progress and still be religious, contrary to Tandy's claims to the contrary.

                      <<Yes the AKP are a bit culturally conservative, they put up taxs on alchool for example

                      The US taxes both alcohol and cigarettes.

                      `
                      • Re: turkey is getting better?

                        Wed, March 7, 2012 - 2:40 PM
                        I've got to admit Jeff, Im kind of very curious what comes next in Turkey.

                        I feel that this is phase 1, but as Turkey develops, something quite different is going to come, a new second phase. Lets not forget that modern democratic Islam is something quite new. Im very far from anti western, in fact Im pretty much western myself, even though im half Turkish, i dont even speak the language, and was born and brought up here in England.

                        But here is the thing, China, India, Turkey, there all coming up so fast, and the west has dominated globally for 300 years, thats a long long time, the world has changed so much in that time, in many ways for the better of course, but i think in all of them three places, and others, were gonig to see something quite new soon, they really are on the cusp of "getting there" but there not going to exactly where we are now, there going to some place different.

                        On the other hand, of course the world is getting more global. We will see. For all the problems Im excited about the future.
                    • Re: turkey is getting better?

                      Sun, March 11, 2012 - 5:12 PM
                      <but on just about every criteria from Judicial reform, to human rights, to democracy, to economic growth, to relations with its minorities its improving, and on some things improving enormously.>

                      Again, you are just creating your own reality. Elo - they are second to worst in civil rights in Europe. Second to last. They are "improving"!? They have nowhere to go but to get better! You are painting a rosy picture - again. If you were speaking to someone that had no idea of the realities, they would believe you. BUT. That's not the reality, is it, Elo? YES - there's improvement. Yes. That's true. But, when this "improvement" represents 100+ reporters in jail for indeterminate amount of times...how can you press that "its improving" with any credulity? When prisoners die in custody in Turkish prisons all the time...how can you with a straight face say that "its improving"? Because it was so bad before? That's y'r litmus? It was hell before so now it's just fucked? That's y'r sales pitch?

                      <A country can make progress and still be religious, contrary to Tandy's claims to the contrary.>

                      I'm sure that you're right, Jeff. But, I can't think of one in this position that HAS done it... Can you?

                      <The US taxes both alcohol and cigarettes.>

                      See? Creating room for someone that does not know what's going on to have a fake apple + apple moment. Sadly - that's not true. YES - "The US taxes both alcohol and cigarettes." But, we tax them for DIFFERENT REASONS. They do it there because those things are against a religious belief. Sure, it's a way to raise money, but the core of it is because of religious beliefs. Same way that they shut down pork sales/butchers. How do you want to spin & roseify that one?

                      <On the other hand, of course the world is getting more global. We will see. For all the problems Im excited about the future.>

                      Yes. Which creates your reality. You are "excited about the future", thus, you will do all that you can to create reasons why you should be "excited about the future". I am pessimistic about the future but I don't try to prove to you that you should be pessimistic. I just point to the facts and let you think of them what you will.
                      • Re: turkey is getting better?

                        Mon, March 12, 2012 - 11:20 AM
                        <<Again, you are just creating your own reality. Elo - they are second to worst in civil rights in Europe.

                        But what is their record in comparison to Muslim countries and the MENA region? That would be your apples to apples comparison being that we are speaking of Muslim countries and their path toward Democracy. Is it really fair to compare them to European countries that have had 100s of years as a head start?

                        What has become clear to me is that Turkey's record is a mixed bag, improvement on some fronts and things being "worse" on other fronts. The same thing happens in our own country, it is the messy part of Democracy.

                        <<I'm sure that you're right, Jeff. But, I can't think of one in this position that HAS done it... Can you?

                        How many countries in the region have even had the opportunity? Again, the western world installed these dictators and kings in the region in order to control the flow of cheap oil in the wake of WWII. Subsequently the western world is complicit in contributing toward the lack of Democracy in the region.

                        <<YES - "The US taxes both alcohol and cigarettes." But, we tax them for DIFFERENT REASONS.

                        Some would say say, some not being that they are routinely referenced as a "sin tax".

                        <<Same way that they shut down pork sales/butchers. How do you want to spin & roseify that one?

                        Why would I need to spin anything? I am under no illusions that Turkey is perfect, nor am I under the illusion that we should expect American-centric style Democracy from another culture. Turkey can and is finding their own path, even if there are two steps forward and one step back.
                        • Re: turkey is getting better?

                          Sat, March 17, 2012 - 4:54 AM
                          <But what is their record in comparison to Muslim countries and the MENA region? That would be your apples to apples comparison being that we are speaking of Muslim countries and their path toward Democracy.>

                          of course, and can Tandy or Andrew tell me ANY case of of a country of any sort of size improving there human rights record over night, or even in about 5 years ? In most western countries it took hundreds of years.

                          Now i expect it to improve faster than that in Turkey. But the key question is, is it improving or getting worse, the EU progress reports make it clear its improving, though recently with the journalist thing this last year or two things seem to have go downhill, though the reasons for that look complex.

                          Overall in the last ten years certainly there has been significant improvement. The great Irony is that for a country Israel that you two support and has also a poor human rights record by western standards, you cant even tell me if its got worse or better !! kind of hypocritical that Tandy and Andrew express so much concern about Turkeys human rights but dont seem to careless about a country that they support.

                          • Re: turkey is getting better?

                            Sat, March 17, 2012 - 5:02 AM
                            <that you two support and >

                            sorry for the confusion in that post above starting off addressing you Jeff, and then Tandy and Andrew but hopefully you got what i was talking about.
                      • Re: turkey is getting better?

                        Tue, March 13, 2012 - 4:28 AM
                        <Again, you are just creating your own reality. Elo - they are second to worst in civil rights in Europe. Second to last. They are "improving"!? They have nowhere to go but to get better! >

                        Hilarious, the lie being pushed by you and Tandy was that the Muslim AKP has made human rights worse in Turkey, when thats exposed as a lie you backtrack and say how does it compare to the rest of western Europe.

                        If you put Israel alongside western Europe Israel may well be right at the bottom of the pile on human rights, Israel are very happy to torture people.

                        But the fact is on that aspect Turkey is improving, not sure if the same can be said for Israel, and Turkey are improving fast on every criteria, on Economics their leaving Israel behind in the dust, not only is their economy 4 times the size of Israels there doubling the size of there economy about every 10 years.

                        Clearly there has been significant and big improvements on many aspects of human rights and democracy brought in by the Muslim AKP no matter how much you and Tandy want to lie about that, with someone around to post the real facts from EU commission reports etc as opposed to the bullshit you two come out with your not going to get away with them lies.

                        Keep trying to knock the Muslim world with your bitterness Andrew, its sure as hell not going to stop Turkey moving forward at lighting speed and its not even going to manage to stop reform in places like Saudi.

                        You'd do better to focus your attention on what is going wrong in Israel and what needs to be improved in the shity government they have currently, than getting bitter about obvious improvements going on in Turkey.



                        • Re: turkey is getting better?

                          Thu, March 15, 2012 - 8:51 PM
                          <Hilarious, the lie being pushed by you and Tandy was that the Muslim AKP has made human rights worse in Turkey, when thats exposed as a lie you backtrack and say how does it compare to the rest of western Europe.>

                          [Rosy] Elo...100 or more reporters are IN JAIL. I never said that at all. Quote it. I dare you.

                          <If you put Israel alongside western Europe Israel may well be right at the bottom of the pile on human rights, Israel are very happy to torture people.>

                          Are they trying to join the EU? Apples to apples, oranges to oranges.

                          <But the fact is on that aspect Turkey is improving,>

                          This is up to 2010:
                          ipsnews.net/news.asp

                          But, this is just women, so...
                          www.upi.com/Top_News/Wor...861331730213/

                          If this is 'getting better', then...
                          www.bianet.org/english/fr...-violations

                          In this context, "getting better" means what...?
                          "Turkey's ongoing fight against the outlawed Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), which has now continued for almost three decades, has not only taken the lives of around 50,000 people but has also resulted in numerous human rights violations."
                          www.todayszaman.com/columnis...cord.html

                          <Turkey are improving fast on every criteria>

                          Really? Really? Seriously? "every criteria"? Blue pill, definitely the blue pill.

                          <Clearly there has been significant and big improvements on many aspects of human rights>

                          I've been looking into this for three days now, and I can't find ANY mention of "significant and big improvements". You can't either. YET!!!! Yet, you will say such a thing.

                          <Keep trying to knock the Muslim world with your bitterness Andrew>

                          Posting facts is not me posting on behalf of any "bitterness" that you think that I have. The first mistake that thoughtless people make is to negotiate through the world based on their own assumptions. Which...may I add...is a stupid, stupid thing to do.

                          <the Muslim AKP making significant strides on talking peace with the Kurds and Armenians,>

                          Hmm...is that right?

                          "Those diplomatic efforts to normalise the relations initiated by Armenia have faltered."

                          Now, I don't know if that's the AKP's fault, but...since you guys make any mistake made by America to be Obama's fault, or any fuck up by Netanyahu to be Israel's fault, I guess that we should keep this apples & apples...

                          <Israel constantly eats up and destroys Arab Palestine.>

                          Yeah? What else have they eaten in the last year or more? Lemme know.

                          <Anyway im bored ot debating your anti Muslim prejudice>

                          Funny how showing the non-rosy perspective is "anti Muslim prejudice". Ha!

                          <Turkey is doing just fine without you>

                          Tell that to the reporters in jail. Tell that to the hundreds of people dying in Turkish prisons in the last few years by "suicide" or other obviousy reasonable reasons... Tell that to the Armenian Turks that live in fear of speaking out against the Turkish government. Yeah..."just fine", indeed. [rosy]

                          <They will laugh in the face of your bitterness.>

                          That's especially easy to say when one ignores what's going on here.

                          <when Andrew is proven wrong and runs out of ideas the only thing he has left is name calling, and he's even poor at that.>

                          HA! Calling someone a "hypocrite" is "name calling"? What are you two - puppies?
                          • Re: turkey is getting better?

                            Sat, March 17, 2012 - 4:09 AM
                            <I've been looking into this for three days now, and I can't find ANY mention of "significant and big improvements". You can't either. YET!!!! Yet, you will say such a thing. >

                            Andrew I have just quoted several sections of the Turkeys EU progress report above, its the most in-depth investigation of these matters in the world, as the EU is taking Turkeys entry or not very seriously, and the EU has big funding for this kind of thing, being the biggest economy in the world as a group.

                            Now if your having trouble reading the quotes i quoted to you above, where clearly it says many aspects are improving, i haven't really got the time to help you with basic reading skills, must i point out each sentence for you individually ?
                      • Re: turkey is getting better?

                        Sat, March 17, 2012 - 4:17 AM
                        <But, we tax them for DIFFERENT REASONS. They do it there because those things are against a religious belief.>

                        you see this shows the heart of the matter as to why you have a problem with the AKP in Turkey - its there religion and Islam you hate, so what if they do it for there religion, in the UK even now many things are prevented by law on a Sunday for historically Christian reasons, when i was young many shops were not allowed to open.

                        The reason your getting so irrate at Turkys AKP is obvious - you dont like Islam. Dont expect a country of 90%+ Muslims to agree with you on that.

                        The important thing about Turkey is that the AKP are finding a balance between the religious and secular wishes of the people. Not drinking is NOT being forced on more secular Turks and that is all that matters really. Im sure most Turks would find your dislike of Islam really irrelevant to there country.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: turkey is getting better?

                    Wed, March 14, 2012 - 10:32 PM
                    -----I don't think things are getting worse in Turkey, she has convinced me of no such thing. More conservative?

                    more conservative is not worse? would you say that its better?

                    ---A party that is on par with the religiousity of the Republicans in our own country? Absolutely.

                    they are worse then that for sure.

                    @elo----its improving, and on some things improving enormously.

                    again that is just in your eyes. its still close to worst for civil rights. how is that improving?

                    @jeff-----A country can make progress and still be religious, contrary to Tandy's claims to the contrary.

                    i never said that. all religions are not the same. in england there is an official religion and its not gotten more conservative has it?

                    ----The US taxes both alcohol and cigarettes.

                    sure but why? why do the turks? because they want to do a sin tax or because they want to punish people acting in a nonmuslim manner? what do you think? dont answer that i know what you will say.

                    @andrew------What I was saying is that it's moving away from such an adherence to secularism.

                    well said. totally. how is that as jeff says not worse? would he like to live in a country that is getting more conservative? no of course not so if not then that is getting worse right?

                    ------Is that really the kind of logic that means something to you?

                    hahaha. no. that will mean nothing to him.

                    ------Turkey is the SECOND TO LAST in Human Rights in Europe. So the fuck what if they are getting better. I saw that shit - 100+ reporters in jail, sometimes for years? Kurds commonly tortured to death in prison? You call that something worth mentioning as "big improvements"? From what - the Dark Ages?

                    hahaha. again so right. that is his rosy review again. because it goes from just about worst to being better in some cases that is to him an excuse to say that its getting better. better then what!

                    ---------Turkey is part of Asia.

                    wait what do you mean? dont you mean europe or middle east?

                    ----So the fuck what? Tell that to the over 100 reporters in Turkish jails. I don't give credit so easily.

                    i am sure that they agree with elo that things are getting better. but what does it matter it is just 100 of them anyway! hahaha

                    ----So...you don't consider; knowing the track record of conservative Islam, a "More conservative" Turkey to be "getting worse"? Really?

                    thats a good question.
                    • Re: turkey is getting better?

                      Thu, March 15, 2012 - 12:29 PM
                      <<-----I don't think things are getting worse in Turkey, she has convinced me of no such thing. More conservative?

                      more conservative is not worse? would you say that its better? <<

                      "Worse" and "better" are relative terms, and ultimately it depends on the eye of the beholder. Here in our own country liberals think things are getting "worse" when things are trending more conservative, but Republicans would consider that "better". So not only is "worse" and "better" rather vague and non-specific, it is also in the eye of the beholder. And as I said, it depends on the specifics being that Turkey has improved on some fronts, and yet on other fronts a liberal may consider things "worse".

                      <<@jeff-----A country can make progress and still be religious, contrary to Tandy's claims to the contrary.

                      i never said that.<<

                      You pointed to the idea that Turkey is becoming more religious as a demonstration that things are getting worse Tandy.

                      << in england there is an official religion and its not gotten more conservative has it?

                      Yes it has, repeatedly throughout history, as have countries like Canada. You keep pretending that this "gotten more conservative" is a static position, when reality is such that Democracies vaccilate between conservative and liberal ideals. Or are you unaware that both England and Canda have elected conservative leaders in the recent past, thereby indicating that they have become "more conservative"?

                      <<sure but why? why do the turks? because they want to do a sin tax or because they want to punish people acting in a nonmuslim manner? what do you think?

                      We live in different cultures so of course the reasoning is going to be different, the point still remains that taxes on booze and cigs here in the US is called a "sin tax", and the word "sin" is derived from the bible.

                      <<dont answer that i know what you will say.

                      What does the above unintelligible sentence mean?

                      <<how is that as jeff says not worse?

                      How is it you can't read? Clearly I indicated that things are better on some fronts and worse on others, it depends on the specifics you are referencing. Your vague blanket statments don't really speak to those specifics.

                      <<would he like to live in a country that is getting more conservative?

                      I currently live in a country that was "getting more conservative". 8 years of Bush = "getting more conservative" during that time period. One could even make the point that the 2010 midterm election reults indicate that things are currently "getting more conservative" in the US. Clearly that is also not a static position as these things tend to vaccilate in Democratic countries.
                      • Re: turkey is getting better?

                        Fri, March 16, 2012 - 5:41 PM
                        ----"Worse" and "better" are relative terms

                        jeff you are the sane guy of you two so now it has come down to just having to play with words? just admit that more conservative is worse. its worse when journalists are put in jail man! its worse when those other things happen. that is worse. that is not better.

                        -----and ultimately it depends on the eye of the beholder.

                        this is not about the beholder its about us here. that is getting out of having to admit that its worse. i have seen you here long enough that i know that you think that these things are worse. why wont you just ssay to your opinion they are worse? because then you will be seen as going along wiht me against elo? this is not seventh grade.

                        -----and yet on other fronts a liberal may consider things "worse".

                        you are a liberal. so? better or worse?

                        ------You pointed to the idea that Turkey is becoming more religious as a demonstration that things are getting worse Tandy.

                        read your own post. i never said that they cant make progress. i know that they are making progress on some fronts right? i hvae never said otherwise. that is your strawman. things can be getting worse while there is still progress. those two are not all equal.

                        -------when reality is such that Democracies vaccilate between conservative and liberal ideals.

                        theres a difference between us or canada getting more conservative and turkey. has canada or us outlawed things agianst our law? some states have tried byut not our country. you are really losing this one but i know that you cant admit it.

                        --------Clearly I indicated that things are better on some fronts and worse on others,

                        so you mean that they are making progress while getting more conservative? hahahaha hahaha. that is priceless!

                        @andrew----Oh, right...you got me booted a while ago for not even referencing you.

                        did he really? sounds like something dustin would have done. or whatever his name is.

                        -------Really? Sharia is not worse "by much"?

                        ask the women there. see how they think. see how much by much means to them.

                        ------Even nominal sharia limits the opportunity for women.

                        thats exactly what i was just talking about.

                        -----You are trying to AGAIN compare apples & oranges.

                        he always does that.

                        --I really don't think that at this point in evolution we should consider stoning people to death & caning women is OK with me or should be OK anywhere.

                        totally. to him such things are part of their democratic move. no sorry. not all democracies are created equal. democracy just by itself is not some kind of magic fitxitall button. democracy can mean things get worse too.

                        -------By your argument, 'honor killings' is something that we should be OK with.

                        no i dont think that he is saying that. i dont know any country that has legalized honor killings. a better example would be freedo mof speech in turkey or sharia law in democratic countries.

                        ------What y'r doing is getting into a semantic debate that these guys LOVE. See, when one relies upon semantics, one then pretty much will NEVER lose an argument! One can always be right?

                        i know. i keep falling into that hole.

                        -------they will accuse you of racism

                        hahaha. calling someone a hypocrite is bad and against the rules but a racist isnt? hahaha. its like they just create some kind of fantasy here. their own fantasy.


                        • Re: turkey is getting better?

                          Tue, March 20, 2012 - 11:18 AM
                          <<jeff you are the sane guy of you two so now it has come down to just having to play with words?

                          I am not playing with words, I am correctly pointing out that your vague and generalized statements don't really speak to the details. Elo and Andrew have put forth specifics as to what has improved and what has not improved, thereby demonstrating that Turkey is a mixed bag. And as Elo has demonstrated, they have a better human rights score than does Israel, a country that has elected a conservative leader thereby demonstrating that they themselves are trending conservative. Of course that will change again, the pendulum between conservative and liberal swings away in Democratic countries.

                          <<that is getting out of having to admit that its worse. i have seen you here long enough that i know that you think that these things are worse. why wont you just ssay to your opinion they are worse?

                          Because I don't take the simple view of "better" and/or "worse" without evaluating the specifics. Better on many fronts, worse on a few other fronts. As they say, the devil is in the details, which is why I won't ignore the entirety of these details.

                          <<because then you will be seen as going along wiht me against elo? this is not seventh grade.

                          No, it is not 7th grade.....which means you can't ask a question and then assume the answer is yes. I have no problem disagreeing with Elo and have done so many times in the past. My position is based on a balanced evaluation of the entirety of Turkey's position. Your own analysis is one sided and biased to the max. Why? Because you don't think Muslims are ready for Democracy, and the example of a Democratic Turkey hurts your argument.

                          <<i know that they are making progress on some fronts right?

                          So it has taken you this long to admit their improvements on many fronts? We had to drag you kicking and screaming in to that position?

                          <<theres a difference between us or canada getting more conservative and turkey.

                          How so?

                          <<has canada or us outlawed things agianst our law?

                          I am not sure what this sentence even means Tandy, can you rewrite it so that it is understandable?

                          <<some states have tried byut not our country.

                          Some states have tried what?

                          <<you are really losing this one but i know that you cant admit it.

                          In your own head Tandy. Mine is a balanced position on Turkey, your extreme bias is clearly apparrent.

                          <<so you mean that they are making progress while getting more conservative?

                          Yes Tandy, a country can make progress while being religious, and yes even conservative. It ultimately depends on the details and specifics, which is why I have evaluated those specifics in their entirety. Rather than just focusing on that which is convenient to my argument as you have been doing.

                          <<-------they will accuse you of racism

                          hahaha. calling someone a hypocrite is bad and against the rules but a racist isnt? hahaha. its like they just create some kind of fantasy here. their own fantasy. <<

                          The only fantasy here is the false assertion that I have called either of you "racist". I have repeatedly pointed this mistake out, and yet you continue to try and use it against me. Disingenuous to say the least.

                    • Re: turkey is getting better?

                      Thu, March 15, 2012 - 9:05 PM
                      <more conservative is not worse? would you say that its better?>

                      What y'r doing is getting into a semantic debate that these guys LOVE. See, when one relies upon semantics, one then pretty much will NEVER lose an argument! One can always be right?

                      Is conservative better? Well...no...but then they will never say "no". They will try to weasel-word it until they have reframed the whole debate. THEN, when they REALLY get going, they will accuse you of racism (without calling you a racist, because that is not allowed, but to them alluding to it by all but saying it is fine with them) and then rationalize why they don't have to be forced to respond to their own hypocrisy & semantics.

                      How many years have I seen them do this? Dustin was the king of it...now looks like the crown has just changed heads.

                      <"Worse" and "better" are relative terms>

                      HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! See. Goddamned! Look how long THAT took!

                      <yet on other fronts a liberal may consider things "worse".>

                      You mean like...oh, say... closing down butchers that serve pork...or making drinking harder and harder...you know, pesky things like that that "liberals" find to be difficult... Just "liberals".

                      <Or are you unaware that both England and Canda have elected conservative leaders in the recent past, thereby indicating that they have become "more conservative"?>

                      Jeff, did those Conservative leaders close butcher shops? Did they make alcohol more difficult to purchase? Did they make moves to push people to religious schools by DAMAGING the public schools? You know.............apples to apples.........

                      <Clearly I indicated that things are better on some fronts and worse on others, it depends on the specifics you are referencing.>

                      wea·sel words
                      Noun:
                      Words or statements that are intentionally ambiguous or misleading.

                      Dude. Come on. You are arguing to win, not to be reasonable. There is no reasonable person that can say that Turkey is getting SO MUCH BETTER as to be the place that you and Elo are representing. Elo says that it's a vacation wonderland while you say that it's just kinda worse here and there... But better! Tell that to the hundred and some reporters in jail. Tell that to the butchers and liquor salespeople. Tell that to the people that want their children to have a good public schooling who now see this ability shrinking because this non-religious government wants to send kids to madrasses. Let them know this, if you would. I'll just pretend that y'r right.

                      I mean, if one WANTS to be right, one can make up all the reasons in the world to insist that one is right. In fact, one can never have to face a reality that they may have to be forced to change one's mind! One may have to admit that one is wrong! Can't have that! Instead, we'll just rationalize/weasel word out way to insist that we CAN be right. Not ARE right, but CAN be. Imagine if I used that kind of effort for Israel. I could make them angels.

                      Think of it like this:

                      Israel is better than Turkey EVERY WAY POSSIBLE. Their human rights within Israel are better. Their civil rights within Israel are better. They have never committed genocide against anyone. They are the ONE beacon of liberalism in all of the Middle East, winning in EVERY category.

                      Yet - they are eeeeevil, and Turkey is 'getting better'.


                      oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooook. If you wanna think so.....
                      • Re: turkey is getting better?

                        Sat, March 17, 2012 - 1:56 AM
                        <Israel is better than Turkey EVERY WAY POSSIBLE. Their human rights within Israel are better. >

                        oh really, Israel are well known to torture people on a regular basis and have broken more UN resolutions than Iraq done under Saddam Hussein, but I guess in your "rosy" outlook, Israel are just fine, lol.
                        • Re: turkey is getting better?

                          Sat, March 17, 2012 - 4:11 AM
                          but i guess what your saying really Andrew is when Israel tortures Arabs, that doesn't count, it doesn't matter, because well, maybe you can finish that sentence.......
                    • Re: turkey is getting better?

                      Sat, March 17, 2012 - 4:33 AM
                      <@andrew------What I was saying is that it's moving away from such an adherence to secularism.

                      well said. totally. how is that as jeff says not worse? would he like to live in a country that is getting more conservative? no of course not so if not then that is getting worse right? >

                      Again I see no problem with Turks allowing more religious schools, having laws on alcohol that reflect the values of the people, so long as this isnt forced onto the non relgious, ie all schools become religious, there is no choice, alcohol is banned etc.

                      If i was living in Istanbul id have no problem with many Turks getting heavily into there religion so long as that wasn't forced on me, which it isnt. Unlike you I am not deeply hostile to Islam.

                      You have yet to show ANYTHING that shows Islam being forced onto people. The fact that certain amount of religion there is being encouraged by the government, but not FORCED on the people, makes them no different to Christian Democratic parties of Europe of the 20th Century say.

                      and you talk about living in a place thats conservative. Ive been to Turkey several times, people in places like Istanbul and the west coast of Turkey are not generally conservative by nature. For the conservative people you have to go inland around Konya. They are however generally religious. But that makes them no more conservative really than Italians or Spanish, who are also very religious.

                      There is a very large amount of Turks who are quite secular, and if the AKP did start to do things like Ban alcohol and force people into religious schools the AKP would lose the next election right away. Much of the press is still owned by secular business elite who are quite hostile to Islam.

                      Sorry but you really dont know much about Turkey.

                      However the recent development of journalists being locked up is something of concern and something to be worried about, its a new development.

                      If you read this article in the FT it shows the reasons are complex -

                      www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4c97...axzz1pMNI2I3Q

                      as Jeff says, no country developing will have a prefect ascent, most of what the AKP have done this last ten years has been fantastic, but recently this thing about the journalists is of more concern, though it doesnt appear the government is directly responsible, more the police and some elements of the Gulen Institute, but clearly the AKP should get onto this.

                      However when you start obsessing about Turks voting for honor killings in democratically when the murder rate in the US is double, that is clearly a case of you thinking your own culture is superior without good reason.

                      • Re: turkey is getting better?

                        Sat, March 17, 2012 - 9:58 PM
                        <Again I see no problem with Turks allowing more religious schools,>

                        Neither do I. That was never an issue. The issue was taking steps that force children into the religious schools. THAT is a problem. If YOUR community started shortening the school day, which forced your children to some conservative Christian school in order to have a full day's study - you'd be fine with that? Bullshit.

                        <having laws on alcohol that reflect the values of the people,>

                        Exactly. Y'r starting to get it. The tyranny of the majority OR minority. Most Turks don't want any laws restricting alcohol or pork. Yet...these things ARE happening. So, if as you say - the laws that "reflect values of the people" are being abridged...that's a bad thing, right?

                        You get that, Elo? You just admitted that the government is doing something bad. oooops.

                        <You have yet to show ANYTHING that shows Islam being forced onto people.>

                        Except for the issues relating to bars and the pig butchers being closed down and the secular schools being defunded so that kids have to go to religious schools...besides that? Y'r right. Not much (as far as I know).

                        <But that makes them no more conservative really than Italians or Spanish, who are also very religious.>

                        Yeah, but conservative Christians don't have the track record that conservative/fundamentalist Muslims have. Sorry - that's a fucking fact. Ireland is very conservative religiously - but I don't see them closing bars or making alcohol more difficult to get. I don't see them doing things to abridge personal freedoms in the manner that is happening in Turkey. Apples to apples. Oranges to oranges.

                        <Sorry but you really dont know much about Turkey.>

                        True. That's why I keep posting cites & links.

                        <However the recent development of journalists being locked up is something of concern and something to be worried about, its a new development.>

                        Hmm. "new", 'eh?

                        <but recently this thing about the journalists is of more concern, though it doesnt appear the government is directly responsible, more the police and some elements of the Gulen Institute>

                        So...you are cool with Israel, and will go along with me when I say good things about them as long as I blame Netanyahu? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Got it.

                        <However when you start obsessing about Turks voting for honor killings in democratically when the murder rate in the US is double, that is clearly a case of you thinking your own culture is superior without good reason.>

                        Dude, that is not even linear. In fact, it's another of Elo's Strawman Generation. I never said that the issue was how many dead people there were. The issue his how the society deals with so-called 'honor killings', and how OUR society deals with violence that leads to death. There is ZERO patience with such a thing. But...it's a societal & common trend there. How do you not understand the difference, Elo?


                      • Re: turkey is getting better?

                        Tue, March 20, 2012 - 11:44 AM
                        <<You have yet to show ANYTHING that shows Islam being forced onto people. The fact that certain amount of religion there is being encouraged by the government, but not FORCED on the people, makes them no different to Christian Democratic parties of Europe of the 20th Century say.

                        Well said Elo. And contrary to Andrews claims, Turkish children are not being forced to go to religious schooling. Lowering the REQUIRED years of formal schooling is quite different than simply lower the number of years of formal schooling. Much like here in the US a child is REQUIRED to go to school until they are 16, but then can legally drop out.
                    • Re: turkey is getting better?

                      Sat, March 17, 2012 - 4:40 AM
                      <again that is just in your eyes. its still close to worst for civil rights>

                      look i have posted about 6 sections from the most respected source on this that there is available in the world, the EUs progress reports on Turkey. They are well funded and are compiled by a team of independent experts who have unparalleled access to the workings of Turkey. Did you not even read them ?? If your going to just ignore the evidence Im posting there is no point in having a conversation.

                      And Turkey is NOT the worst in civil rights, your comparing it to western Europe there, if you ranked it in the world they would be doing better than most, and they may even be ahead of Israel, Israel have a bad record on torture.

                      To be honest BOTH countries, Turkey and Israel need to improve on this. Well, according to the best source in the world, at least Turkey ARE improving on this. i do not know if the same could be said of your favorite country Israel, do you ? - but for some reason, there human rights abuses do not seem to bother you ?

                      Can you even tell me if human rights abuses are getting worse or better in a country that you support ? No ? how come your not bothered about what Israel get upto ? now isnt that strange, you express such a concern about Turkeys human rights, but have no concern whatsoever about a country you support ????



                      • Re: turkey is getting better?

                        Sat, March 17, 2012 - 10:24 PM
                        <look i have posted about 6 sections from the most respected source on this that there is available in the world, the EUs progress reports on Turkey.>

                        Same as the last issue - you don't look at what information ACTUALLY is about or says - you just look at what you want from it. Those progress reports say that it's getting better, but IT IS STILL SECOND FROM THE WORST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                        That's like congratulating the Lord's Army for just raping women instead of raping and then killing them. Yeah - it's BETTER, but...........come on, if Turkey is getting better but they are still 2nd form the bottom............maybe you should hold the applause until they are at least third......

                        <And Turkey is NOT the worst in civil rights,>

                        Are you talking to me or Tandy? I never said that they were worst. I said that they were SECOND FROM THE WORST.

                        <and they may even be ahead of Israel, Israel have a bad record on torture.>

                        Too bad for you...........they're not. Far from it. FAR from it. Sorry. I know how that must pain you so.

                        <Well, according to the best source in the world, at least Turkey ARE improving on this.>

                        True, they may make it to the third worst some day!

                        <but for some reason, there human rights abuses do not seem to bother you ?>

                        HA! Yeah. Ooooooooooooooooooook.

                        <Can you even tell me if human rights abuses are getting worse or better in a country that you support ? No ?>

                        Yes. Because I know what I'm talking about. In Israel, human rights are the BEST IN THE WHOLE REGION. BY A LONG-SHOT!!!

                        <how come your not bothered about what Israel get upto ?>

                        Who says that I'm not? Oh, right. Mixmaster Elo.

                        <now isnt that strange, you express such a concern about Turkeys human rights, but have no concern whatsoever about a country you support ????>

                        Bring it up, yo. I'll chat with you about it.

                        Until then - here:

                        Media Independence:
                        www.nationsonline.org/oneworl...edom.htm
                        en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pres...edom_Index

                        I can't find a few others real quickly - but I have seen top 10/20 lists and Israel is 100% the best one for all in the MENA. Press freedom? Best. Civil right? Best. Education? Best. Repression of minorities? Best. So - if you think that Israel is so bad - imagine how horrible these other countries are if Israel is always the best. Don't believe me? Do y'r own goddamned research. Seriously. Think about it. When you say Israel is so bad...know that if they are so bad, then that means that these others are SO MUCH WORSE.

                        <And Andrew, can you tell me if human rights abuses committed by Israel are getting better or worse ?>

                        In Israel to Israelis?
                        www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso...html

                        What is so odd to me is that you want to hinge your argument on who is getting better? Why not who is WORSE? Oh - right. You'd lose, so you'll take the Dustin & Jeff school and rely upon YOUR argument instead of the logical one. Let's see:

                        One Argument: Who is the worst
                        Another Argument: Who is getting better

                        You'd; of course, want to argue that it's more important the "Another Argument" because your side can arguably at leas actually have a chance of winning. Can't with the relevant one - you know, the one that MATTERS to the people living there. You know, rule of law...democracy...personal freedoms... You just want to argue where you can win and will ignore the rest. How pitiful.

                        <How come Andrew ?>

                        Bring it up - I'll talk about it all day and school you.

                        <of course, and can Tandy or Andrew tell me ANY case of of a country of any sort of size improving there human rights record over night, or even in about 5 years ? In most western countries it took hundreds of years.>

                        Um...Israel's only been there 60some... They're the best in the region for EVERY marker.

                        So, y'r excuse is that they've not had the time to be better...so...that's an EXCUSE? Are you kidding me? Seriously? You think that it's an excuse? What hypocrisy. You can make excuses for your side, but if someone else does it...nononononononno!

                        <kind of hypocritical that Tandy and Andrew express so much concern about Turkeys human rights but dont seem to careless about a country that they support.>

                        Bring it up man. I talk about Israel incessantly. How many different times & ways can I say that they are better?


                        • Re: turkey is getting better?

                          Tue, March 20, 2012 - 6:05 AM
                          right Andrew, i see the best you can come up when looking at Israels human rights record is a Jewish propaganda site "Jewishlibary" - clearly then you are clueless as to an independent and reliable assessment of Israels human rights record.

                          Ive done a bit better than that, Ive found the worlds best source on ranking civil liberties by nation, the annual freedom house report.

                          as you can see from this new post -

                          uspolitics.tribe.net/thread/...7bac2b0e

                          In the Israeli ruled West bank Israel score much worse than Turkey.

                          Not only that, but you also admit the situation is improving in Turkey.

                          So it seems like on both counts of -

                          who is worse

                          who is improving


                          Turkey wins. Well you asked for the facts Andrew, their they are. So now maybe you'd be better off spending your time worrying about Israeli governance than a Fundamentalist take over in Turkey ? Just a suggestion.
            • Re: turkey is getting better?

              Sat, March 10, 2012 - 11:50 PM
              <The primes seems to be that Religion increasing its influence on education in Turkey is corrupting and degrading Education in Turkey, i have shown by many examples and statistics thats not true.>

              Actually, not at all. What you posted showed that there's still opportunity for having a good education no matter where you go. And, that link never said a word - at least in my memory - about a "degrading Education in Turkey", it was meant to illustrate the INCREASE in fundamentalist response to the government's interest in increasing the Muslim influence in what until now has been a secular system. So - no. Not only was that NOT the premise (you created a strawman there), but that's not what that link was describing, anyway.

              <Turkey is still a secular state>

              I never said that it was not. What I was saying is that it's moving away from such an adherence to secularism. It's now starting to allow religious beliefs to creep into its governmental operation. This is - and you can't argue this point - this is new.

              <The fact that Turkey is now encouraging religious schools does not mean there is not a separation between the state and religion.>

              Quite simply: Yes it does. When the government takes actions that will push kids towards a religious school BY DESIGN - and if you believe this article, it's by design - then that IS breaking down "a separation between the state and religion".

              <In the UK, there have been lots of religious schools for many years.>

              Mr. Apple, meet Mr. Orange. So what? Is England 98% Muslim? Does ~40% of the population want the UK's laws based some part or totally on Muslim-based laws? Is that really the kind of logic that means something to you?

              <Let me give you some pointers, you can do the rest, Im not going through the same process yet again.>

              That's mighty white of you.

              <Both them show that the situation has improved since the AKP has been in power, some areas have had big improvements, in others there have been slow progress but still progress.>

              Dude. I saw that thread. Turkey is the SECOND TO LAST in Human Rights in Europe. So the fuck what if they are getting better. I saw that shit - 100+ reporters in jail, sometimes for years? Kurds commonly tortured to death in prison? You call that something worth mentioning as "big improvements"? From what - the Dark Ages?

              <Note too that they fought tooth and nail to block recent efforts by the AKP to make peace and improve things with the Kurds and Armenians.>

              ****Wait.........wait......... Did you just excuse Turkish behavior? You did! Holy fuck. You just excused Turkish behavior! Don't you understand, Mr. Hypocrite, that when I give reasons - even good reasons - for why Israel does something, you always will just shit on those realities? Yet - here you are. Doing the same fucking thing. Fucking hypocrite.

              Then again, I should not be so harsh. It takes introspection to understand such a thing.

              <Now you and Tandy are putting forward the premise that the Muslim AKP have made these things get worse.>

              CALL FOR A MR. STRAWMAN. IS THERE A MR. STRAWMAN IN THE HOUSE? LAST CALL FOR A MR. STRAWMAN.

              <I shouldnt judge Andrew by Tandy's willingness to ingore the facts though ive presented them to her at least twice before.>

              Thank you. I really appreciate that.

              Mr. Hypocrite: If I was to post positive things about Israel, you'd ignore them. YET! You want me here to just accept your positive information just because...uh...because...uh... Wait...why?

              hyp·o·crite/ˈhipəˌkrit/
              Noun:
              A person who indulges in hypocrisy.
              • Re: turkey is getting better?

                Mon, March 12, 2012 - 10:30 AM
                <<I never said that it was not. What I was saying is that it's moving away from such an adherence to secularism. It's now starting to allow religious beliefs to creep into its governmental operation.

                Many politicians in our own country allow religious beliefs in to how they operate, which is quite different passing religious laws that violate the separation of church and state.

                <<Quite simply: Yes it does. When the government takes actions that will push kids towards a religious school BY DESIGN

                Are they "pushed" or are they given a choice?

                <<Mr. Hypocrite

                Just a heads up Andrew, Gerbil is now taking a very hard line regarding name calling.
                • Re: turkey is getting better?

                  Thu, March 15, 2012 - 2:38 PM
                  <Are they "pushed" or are they given a choice?>

                  Did you read the article? They are unquestionably pushed when public education is cut...they have no other choice but to go to these madrasses if they want to continue their education. It's by design to push them towards these madrasses.

                  <Just a heads up Andrew, Gerbil is now taking a very hard line regarding name calling.>

                  Just a heads up, Jeff. Calling someone a "hypocrite" CAN'T be considered "name calling" EXCEPT by the most ridiculous of human beings. Oh, right...you got me booted a while ago for not even referencing you. Right. You like doing that. I forgot. That's your MO. Right. Proud moment, I am sure...
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: turkey is getting better?

                    Fri, March 16, 2012 - 12:51 PM
                    <<They are unquestionably pushed when public education is cut...they have no other choice but to go to these madrasses if they want to continue their education.

                    That does not make any sense Andrew. Specifically, how does reducing the REQUIRED amount of formal schooling in Turkey force students to Madrassas? For instance, students in our own country (at least when I was in school) can drop out when they are 16 years old, that is how long they are REQUIRED to recieve formal education. It does not then follow that you HAVE to drop out at 16. Same thing here, reducing the REQUIRED amount of formal schooling opens up the OPTION of going to Madrassa, which means they do have a choice, contrary to your claims. So maybe you should go back and read your own article so you have a better understanding as to what the phrase "compulsory education" means.

                    <<Just a heads up, Jeff. Calling someone a "hypocrite" CAN'T be considered "name calling" EXCEPT by the most ridiculous of human beings.

                    I did not say that "hypocrite" = name calling, you used the phrase "Mr. Hypocrite". Regardless, my point stands bering that I was giving you a polite heads up about what had transpired while you were away. In other words I was trying to help you, and only the most rediculous of persons would take offense to that.

                    <<Oh, right...you got me booted a while ago for not even referencing you.

                    Huh? I did not get you booted, you have me confused with someone else.
                    • Re: turkey is getting better?

                      Sat, March 17, 2012 - 1:10 AM
                      <Just a heads up, Jeff. Calling someone a "hypocrite" CAN'T be considered "name calling" EXCEPT by the most ridiculous of human beings. Oh, right...you got me booted a while ago for not even referencing you. Right. You like doing that. I forgot. That's your MO. Right. Proud moment, I am sure..>

                      Andrew I could go around calling you and idiot because you dont seem to understand what the EU progress report on Turkey is saying, but calling you an idiot does not address the points being debated or strengthen my case, it on serves to make me look immature and replace logical points with insults. Why are you finding it so difficult to understand this ?

                      Your opinion about me is irrelevant to you presenting your case on Turkey. Prove your point on facts about Turkey, insults only weaken your case.
                      • Re: turkey is getting better?

                        Sat, March 17, 2012 - 1:13 AM
                        you can also read up on "ad hominem", as to why vague attacks on another person do not strengthen a factual debating claim -

                        <An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it.[1] Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as a logical fallacy.[2][3][4]>
                      • Re: turkey is getting better?

                        Sat, March 17, 2012 - 6:14 PM
                        <Andrew I could go around calling you and idiot because you dont seem to understand what the EU progress report on Turkey is saying>

                        Elo, that sentence really well summs up all that we need to know about you. Calling someone:

                        a) Hypocrite

                        or...

                        b) Idiot

                        Which of those is invective & insult, and which one is not? It's an easy test, Elo. Why are you finding it so difficult to understand this ?

                        Oh - calling someone who shows hypocrisy a 'hypocrite' is not an ad hom. Seriously. You can do better than that.

                        <Israel are well known to torture people on a regular basis and have broken more UN resolutions than Iraq done under Saddam Hussein, but I guess in your "rosy" outlook, Israel are just fine, lol.>

                        THAT on the other hand is another kind of fallacy called a Strawman: A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

                        For instance, it's a Straw Man because I never said that "Israel are just fine", with or without the "lol". In FACT, I said the opposite! I have said over and over how fucked they are in many ways - so obviously I do not think that they are "just fine" - again, with or without the "lol".

                        Not only that, this discussion had NOTHING to do with individual issues that Israel has. The fact is that on EVERY MEASURE, Israel is BETTER. Wanna point out the good things? Well, to not be a hypocrite, you have to admit that Israel is better than is Turkey. I have already agreed that things there are getting 'better', so...wanna man up and agree that Israel is better?

                        <You two having a conversation about whether Turks would vote democratically to allow honor killings makes less sense than me saying will Americans vote to allow murder in muggings, after all, the US has around twice the murder rate.>

                        Oh. MY. God. Wait...you don't understand comparisons, do you? Those two are not equal at all. To stop honor killings, they had to CHANGE THE LAW!!!!!!! There is no societal comfort here with muggings that would cause us to have to amend the law to make sure that society is forced to deal with the reality that mugging is not right...it's been illegal for...oh...say...two hundred years...

                        <I mean for real, what would you say if i said will Americans vote to legalize gangland killings ?>

                        Oh, Elo. Elo elo elo.

                        <I mean for real, what would you say if i said will Americans vote to legalize gangland killings ?>
                        Yes, Elo. They said that Turkey is making positive changes. From second to last to...well, still second to last. Congrats. Get them a trophy.

                        <where clearly it says many aspects are improving,>

                        strawaman. and...strawman. I never said that they are not improving. I'm just questioned the progress - you want to say that it's rushing along, and I am questioning your rosy view.

                        <i haven't really got the time to help you with basic reading skills, must i point out each sentence for you individually ?>

                        You seem to have a lot of time on y'r hands, so sure. Why not?

                        <but i guess what your saying really Andrew is when Israel tortures Arabs, that doesn't count, it doesn't matter, because well, maybe you can finish that sentence.......>

                        HA! Oh, Elo. Y'r so cute. "that doesn't count". Oh, Elo. You scamp.

                        <its there religion and Islam you hate>

                        Folks - it's getting BETTER! Now, besides being a racist that hates Muslims, I now also am a bigot that hates Islam. Got it. HA!

                        <The reason your getting so irrate at Turkys AKP is obvious - you dont like Islam.>

                        Yes. That must be it, Elo. Can't be any other reason...I must be a bigot. You caught me.

                        Oh...oh, Elo. Elo elo elo.






                        • Re: turkey is getting better?

                          Sun, March 18, 2012 - 2:48 PM
                          calling someone "Mr Hypocrite" is clearly an insult, but we are down to debating this now are we ? how Dustin like you have turned out to be, you do have a better side Andrew, im sure you can work on that..

                          <THAT on the other hand is another kind of fallacy called a Strawman:>

                          Andrew, you yourself were bringing Israel into this claiming superiority, dont bring and argument up then call it a straw-man because your losing the debate. I am actually interested if Israels human rights record is getting better or worse, do you even know ? How strange if you have no interest in this in a country you "support" and yet heaps of concern for it in Turkey. Again, of course ive investigated reliable sources like the EU progress reports on Turkeys progress on this. I would hardly say they were doing well if I hadnt.

                          I have said that these journalists arrest ARE a matter of concern, however if you do more research into this its apparent that it is a police and judicial corruption issue, the ruling AKP should have done a lot more earlier, but now at least they are starting to react. Of course quicker change in Turkey would be better, but ive never seen many countries improve human rights in months, or even a few years unfortunately. But on a more general widespread basis over the last 10 years there has been obvious improvement as audited by again the most reliable EU reports.

                          < I now also am a bigot that hates Islam. Got it.>

                          you certainly sound like your dead against the idea of the AKP being Islamic yet many of the issues you say you care about for Turkey have actually improved under the last 10 years according to the most reliable sources of the EU progress reports on Turkey.



                          Islamic education is NOT forced on people there, its entirely a choice. Your falsely trying to put that out as if its fundamentalism, when educationally standards are in reality improving pretty rapidly and impressively the last 10 years.

                          Is Turkey prefect ? of coure not, but for a developing nation there doing well and will be a developed nation quite soon.

                          Islamification of PARTS of Turkey is very different to turning Turkey fundamentalist - and with a big and growing educated youth in cities like Istanbul, and growing middle class that's unlikely to ever go much further than at present.

                          Turkey has always been a Muslilm country like Italy and Spain are religious and Catholic countries, but its a minority in Turkey who are fundamentalist. Of course they have some problems with some extremist in places and these honour killing for example.

                          But overall murder rates in Turkey are quite low, and the country is improving on many assets there WRE NOT improving under the previous secular but corrupt regime.

                          I'll lay odds on Egypt does better under the new government eventually after it settles down, but that may take 2-5 years till it properly settles first then gets going.

                          The guy who coined the term "BRIC" said in an interview i heard that he tipped Egypt for a possible future BRIC in 10 years or so.

                          and you know what, if you got a good moderate pro peace Prime Minster in Isreal id lay odds on the new Turkey and Egypt would be good possible future partners with it in peace in the region. Iran may fall, or better put change.

                          I am in no way pessimistic about Isreal in the future, 5-10 years off, but right now there on a crooked path the same as the US were under G W Bush. It will change, 100 % on that. thre may well be big problems before though.











                          • Re: turkey is getting better?

                            Sun, March 18, 2012 - 5:52 PM
                            <calling someone "Mr Hypocrite" is clearly an insult,>

                            Clearly it's not. What's the difference between saying "you are a hypocrite in my opinion" and "Mr. Hypocrite". It's easier to type the latter every time. I believe that you are a hypocrite, I have shown y'r multiple instances of hypocrisy - so y'r a hypocrite. Y'r a man so, 'Mr. Hypocrite' seems like a good way to point out your hypocrisy. I mean, you call me a bigot and racist all the time, so this is nothing in comparison. Not even in the same ballpark.

                            <but we are down to debating this now are we ? how Dustin like you have turned out to be,>

                            Dude, you are the one pushing this. How in the living fuck can you not see that YOU are the one that is pushing this issue? Yet...you blame ME for it? Oh, oh, Elo.

                            <you do have a better side Andrew, im sure you can work on that..>

                            Dude, my "better side" is watching you be a hypocrite. You blame all of Israel for the actions of Netanyahu, yet you blame only those directly responsible for your pets. Give me a break. THAT is hypocrisy.

                            <Andrew, you yourself were bringing Israel into this claiming superiority, dont bring and argument up then call it a straw-man because your losing the debate.>

                            OK. I am going to diagram this for you, so that there is no doubt that you created a strawman, and my charge is in direct relation to your statement, which is this:

                            This is what you said, "<Israel are well known to torture people on a regular basis and have broken more UN resolutions than Iraq done under Saddam Hussein, but I guess in your "rosy" outlook, Israel are just fine, lol.>"

                            The strawman is specifically this part: "but I guess that your "rosy outlook, Israel are just fine..."

                            Elo, when did I ever say that "Israel are just fine"? I never did. They are all kinds of fucked, so why would I have ever said that? So, your comment, "but I guess that your "rosy outlook, Israel are just fine..." is a classic strawman. YOU created the idea that I think that "Israel are just fine"...THAT is a strawman, Elo.

                            Get it?

                            This is not a semantic argument. You created a strawman and now you have made this issue happen. Just don't create strawmen or other fallacies and this won't have to bother other people. I didn't start this "argument up then call it a straw-man because your losing the debate." It's because you attributed an opinion to me that I do not own.

                            <I am actually interested if Israels human rights record is getting better or worse, do you even know ?>

                            Yes.

                            <How strange if you have no interest in this in a country you "support" and yet heaps of concern for it in Turkey.>

                            See, that's a twofer! That's a strawman AND y'r creating it while being hypocritical!

                            <Again, of course ive investigated reliable sources like the EU progress reports on Turkeys progress on this. I would hardly say they were doing well if I hadnt.>

                            I'm glad that you are doing so much to prove that Turkey - the 2nd worst country in the region - is doing better for civil rights. I'm sure that this means a lot to the Kurds, to the reporters in jail and to the butchers & bar owners shut down or in peril. I'll let them know that it's getting better! I'm sure that'll be enough solace to wait as long as you think that it'll take to turn the corner to being anywhere near as good as Israel.

                            <I have said that these journalists arrest ARE a matter of concern, however if you do more research into this its apparent that it is a police and judicial corruption issue, the ruling AKP should have done a lot more earlier, but now at least they are starting to react.>

                            Thus the hypocrisy. You blame Israel in general for everything, even though a great majority of the Israelis want to see peace and are generally Liberal. Yet...you blame Israel. Not Netanyahu - who you rightfully demonize - but I NEVER see you separating the good things that constitute Israel (you know, kinda like...how they are better in EVERY CONTEXT compared to EVERY other country in the region) from the ills. THAT is hypocrisy. Turkey is getting better? Great. Awesome. But, they are still second to worst. Let's allow perspective not to be ruined by bias & agenda. Lay fault where it is deserved and don't paint a rosy picture and try to apply your bias to your argument.

                            <you certainly sound like your dead against the idea of the AKP being Islamic yet many of the issues you say you care about for Turkey have actually improved under the last 10 years according to the most reliable sources of the EU progress reports on Turkey.>

                            So...you think that I am a racist and bigot. Because I "certainly sound like" a bigot and racist. Got it.

                            <Islamic education is NOT forced on people there, its entirely a choice.>

                            Yet - that story seems to feel that if the national school-time is being changed FOR THE PURPOSE of driving people to religious schools...that's what...? Not a problem? Sure, the people are "NOT forced on people there", but kinda like here where we are now giving our tax dollars to students to take to religious schools - we are making it EASIER for these religious schools to take these students, and thus, make secular education more difficult. What part of that is difficult for you to understand? "choice" that is forced is not really as choicy as possible.

                            <Your falsely trying to put that out as if its fundamentalism, when educationally standards are in reality improving pretty rapidly and impressively the last 10 years.>

                            This is a new law, Elo. Again, you are missing the connection between macro issues relating to Turkey - an uptick in education standards - and the micro issue here, which is this problematic new situation.

                            I honestly do not think that you understand what is a strawman or what constitutes hypocrisy.
                            • Re: turkey is getting better?

                              Tue, March 20, 2012 - 4:49 AM
                              < I believe that you are a hypocrite, >

                              Andrew, quite frankly i believe some of your points on this are idiotic, so should i start calling you "Mr Idiot" ? Be a shame if i sunk down to that level and got kicked out here for insulting people like you did considering ive been using this tribe for years and have never got kicked out yet, shame to tarnish my record like that. So really whatever, if you feel you need to insult people in a juvenile way do it, it only serves to make your posts have the tone of cheapness. I notice your doing the same with Jeff. "weasel words" for him eh, why dont you post the definition of that as "someone who doesn't agree with Andrew" ?


                              <Get it? >

                              I never did say you thought Israel were prefect, but clearly your idea of them as having this high standard of human rights is just bullshit and most definatly "rosey". You did say in this thread that Isreal had a good standard of human rights, thats bullshit as you know. what i i get is that you have been making comparisons about Israel and putting forward that they are superior to Turkey on many fronts like human rights, but when that falls flat, because Israel torture, break countless UN resolutions, etc, etc, you call the argument a starwman.

                              <I'm glad that you are doing so much to prove that Turkey - the 2nd worst country in the region - is doing better for civil rights>

                              the second worse in the region eh ? Your good for a laugh if nothing else. Turkey are in the middle east, so there worse than Iran, Isreal, Syria, Egypt, Saudi on human rights ? I dont think so. are you claiming Turkey are in Europe ? Of course they have always had European connections but by most reckoning there not a European country -

                              en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe

                              and have a very different history and culture.

                              It would even be irrelevant however if they were in Europe - which they are not, because my point always has been there improving no most issues under an Islamic government and i have proven in this thread that they are.

                              Alll that you have proven is that Islam is more free there now and that you dislike Islam.





                              You have yet to even prove if Israel are better or worse. You say you know if Israel are getting better or worse ? lets have some reliable Independent good quality data on that like i quoted on Turkey from the EU reports then, or do you even have any ?


                              <Yet - that story seems to feel that if the national school-time is being changed FOR THE PURPOSE of driving people to religious schools...that's what...?>

                              I dont care what this jouranlists "feels" Andrwe, for all i know they may just be someone like you and Tandy who have a deep hostiitly to Islam. What I care about is facts.

                              If The government in Turkey was trying to force people into relgious education, then yes id be concerned, but there not, there just offering people the choice. Here in England there is a choice, and and as i say many in London are increasingly desperate to get there kids into relgious schools actualy as the standard of education is higher.

                              And you said in another post that Italy and Spain are very relgious, thats ok, but Islam has a bad track record so its differen there. So this gets to the heart of your points again, its just that you dont like Islam.

                              Actually nobody has a worse record in recent decades than secular Americans, from millions dead in Vietnam, to supporting horrific war crimes in Central and South America, supporting brutal dictators, blowing Iraq to bits and killing 100s of thousands, and then destabilisting the country badly, thats what i call a terrible record.

                              Or we can go back to Secular Europeans, from the first world war killing many millions, to the second world war even more millions. So with a record like that are we to ban secular education ?

                              Im sorry, but we come to a dead end in this debate now because we have found the core of your objection to Islam becoming more free in Turkey and thats that you dont like Islam and think it has a bad record. Come on dont be shy about that Andrew, just blurt it out.

                              You have tried to dress this up in many forms, saying that religious education is being forced on the people when its not, saying the Muslim government is making Human rights there worse when they are not.

                              Your dislike of Islam is a personal matter for you. Dont worry, its not a crime or anything, your entitled to dislike Islam. Just dont expect 90%+ Islamic Turkey to agree with you on that, and certainly dont expect for one minute your giong to be able to force your dislike of Islam onto the Turkish people.

                              Of course America tried this long and hard with Egypt under Mubarak, well, we are seeing what is happening there. No, Turks chose for themselves now Andrew, and because of that the country is moving forward, not held back by a fucked up, backward, torture happy, aggressive and dictatorial military dictatorship that was enthusiastically backed by America but which held the country back for decades.

                              Now the country is moving forwad, and i mean seriously moving forward, again -

                              www.google.co.uk/publicdata/explore

                              pretty shocking upward curve when the AKP got in wasnt it ?

                              Which is why the AKP have won 3 democratic elections in Turkey with big majorities and are doing fine.

                              And the last piont, which you dont seem to understand, as regards these journalists been locked up in recent years and me saying the AKP are not directly responsible - though they should do more.

                              Again you and especialy Tandys premisis is that the rule of Turkey by a Islamic goverment is attacking human rights there. What i am saying is that this recent development - because it did get worse there like this the last couple of years, is NOT being dirving and coming from the Islamic AKP, its coming from corrupt sections of the police force, judiciary etc.

                              Therefore the premise that this is happening because an Islamic government in is wrong.

                              However, that doesn't mean the AKP shouldn't do more to stop this, and recently it is.

                              Ive never said Turkey is perfect, show me one developing country in the world that is never mind a developed one, but what i have said is that on most fronts its improving which it is.

                              I tell you what Andrew you and others who dislike Islam and sections of the US government can keep there Mubarks and military dictators because Muslims dont want them anymore. You can no longer force that kind of rubbish on the region.

                              The military dictatorship before the Islamic AKP in Turkey was worse in just about every way.









                              • "What I care about is facts."

                                Wed, March 21, 2012 - 5:20 AM
                                <Andrew, quite frankly i believe some of your points on this are idiotic, so should i start calling you "Mr Idiot" ?>

                                Elo, you make this waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyy too easy on me.

                                Hypocrite: If you call someone this word, you are expressing a belief in their interest in being honest with their logic.

                                Idiot: If you call someone this word, you are directly insulting them.

                                This is not a very difficult comparison to understand.

                                <"weasel words" for him eh>

                                Oh, no. Seriously? Do you see insult EVERYWHERE?

                                wea·sel words
                                Noun:
                                Words or statements that are intentionally ambiguous or misleading.

                                Seriously, man. That's not an insult by ANY measure. You HAVE to think. Just think.

                                <but clearly your idea of them as having this high standard of human rights is just bullshit>

                                When did I say this? That's another strawman. When did I say that they had "this high standard of human rights"? Quote it. Oh...right. You never do. EVER. Why? Because you can't. Don't you ever think to yourself, 'Hmm...I can't find proof that he ever said the things that I charge him with... That is really odd... Then why did I charge him with that?' No. No you don't. I don't understand why, but that's between you and ... well, you.

                                <You did say in this thread that Isreal had a good standard of human rights>

                                Where did I say that? Quote it. If anything I said that WITHIN ISRAEL. I have stated that there's a difference INSIDE and outside of Israel. Please quote me, thanks.

                                I mean, if you look at the HDI (www.nationmaster.com/graph/e...-index), what does that tell you? Hmm. Don't look, it may make you sad about where Israel is and where Turkey is...

                                <what i i get is that you have been making comparisons about Israel and putting forward that they are superior to Turkey on many fronts like human rights, but when that falls flat,>

                                "falls flat"? I have proven over and over that they are better than Turkey. If you did your own research to find the TRUTH instead of prove YOUR truth...you'd have found the same information as I did. Proving that I am right. That's gotta be tough.

                                <the second worse in the region eh ? Your good for a laugh if nothing else. Turkey are in the middle east,>

                                No, Europe. So, they are 2nd worst in Europe, and worse than Israel in EVERY MEASURE that I could find. Education, Civil Rights, Human Development, Per Capita Income... They win in EVERY CATEGORY. Every one. Sorry man - that is fact. I have cited it over and over.

                                <It would even be irrelevant however if they were in Europe - which they are not,>

                                Um...so much for their EU bid, 'eh? You wanna call them or should I?

                                <you dislike Islam.>

                                Yes. I am a bigot. Got it. Got it. You get mad when I point out your hypocrisy, or call out someone's 'weasel words', but you can call someone a bigot. Got it.

                                <You have yet to even prove if Israel are better or worse.>

                                Sadly for you, I have just done this over and over and over and over again.

                                <I dont care what this jouranlists "feels">

                                Right. It's not the kind of analysis that you like...you know, the kind that proves y'r point.

                                <What I care about is facts.>

                                Um, I have used facts over and over today. One after another. Even YOU can't question these cites. Will you admit yet that the facts be the facts? Do you have the integrity to do so?

                                <Your dislike of Islam is a personal matter for you.>

                                Ha. Again. Calling me a bigot. Please quote for me where I have ever said that I "dislike" Islam. I don't like ANY religion. So...find that quote. Thanks.

                                <And the last piont, which you dont seem to understand, as regards these journalists been locked up in recent years and me saying the AKP are not directly responsible>

                                That's what I mean when I say that you will forgive one country for specific ills because you want to show a rosy picture... Why don't you then look at this:

                                www.freedomhouse.org/report-...om-press

                                How can you rosify this one? Spin it all that you want, but you can't doubt this organization like you poison the well for that story about Turkish education issues.

                                Israel is better on EVERY ISSUE that we can find, and the BEST that you can do is say that, "though they should do more" when we find something bad about Turkey. "though they should do more."

                                <Andrew you and others who dislike Islam>

                                Calling me a bigot again. How many times will you do this? It was racist a few days ago last time that I was here (against Muslims) and today back to just basic bigotry. Got it.

                                <right Andrew, i see the best you can come up when looking at Israels human rights record is a Jewish propaganda site "Jewishlibary">

                                Sadly for you - there are two issues here:

                                1) I guess that because it's "Jewishlibary", that means that Jews are unable to be honest, 'eh? Did you even LOOK at the info? No. Why? Because it said "Jewish". THAT is REAL bigotry, sir. Straight-up, unadulterated bigotry. TRUE bigotry. Doubting the information because it came from Jews? That is bigotry.

                                <clearly then you are clueless as to an independent and reliable assessment of Israels human rights record.>

                                Too bad for you that my last posts have crushed this claim. Israel is better on EVERY front, EVERY issue.

                                <Ive done a bit better than that, Ive found the worlds best source on ranking civil liberties by nation, the annual freedom house report.>

                                Yep. Israel is a "1", and Turkey? A "3". HA! Thanks for pointing that out, man.

                                <In the Israeli ruled West bank Israel score much worse than Turkey.>

                                Too bad for you that we're not talking about the West Bank. EVERY debate has been about Israel vs Turkey. Not the West Bank vs. Turkey. Sad for your pet Turkey. They are behind Israel with EVERY measure.

                                <who is worse>

                                Obviously Turkey - by every measure.

                                <who is improving>

                                So the fuck what? That's like having a bathing suit contest, seeing one thin chick and one fat one, and giving the fat one a medal for losing more weight.


                            • Re: turkey is getting better?

                              Tue, March 20, 2012 - 11:03 AM
                              I am really busy at work right now, so forgive me if I missed something. You asserted that children in Turkey will be FORCED to go to religious schooling, but I think that was based on your mistaken assumption that they are shortening the overall school year. They are not, they are shortening the REQUIREMENT. I can't find where you have responded to these points, at least with a cursery glance. If you have responded I apologize and will find it at a later date.

                              The good news? The economy is improving and my workload has at least doubled. :)
                              • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                Wed, March 21, 2012 - 5:41 AM
                                <You asserted that children in Turkey will be FORCED to go to religious schooling>

                                "FORCED" only if they want to have longer school years if their parents don't want to keep them in secular schools in areas mostly outside of a few big cities. Yes. Their only options will be these religious schools. I won't get into a semantic argument with you, but it sounds like since their secular schools will be closing their mandatory years...they will be 'FORCED' to go to another school if they want to continue their education if that's what their parents want, and which schools will take them in? The religious schools...

                                <They are not, they are shortening the REQUIREMENT.>

                                Yes. The "REQUIREMENT" for this: "The goals of an education reform bill introduced by the Islamic party of Turkey's Premier Recep Tayyip Erdogan have been characterised by opposition parties as aiming to halve the length of compulsory schooling to promote more Koranic schools..."

                                So, you rosify this one for me, Jeff. Help me figure out how if they half the length of compulsory schooling, how will this not push kids into these religious schools?

                                "critics are calling it an incentive to quit school, especially in the less developed eastern areas of the country"

                                Yes. It takes kids out of the compulsory secular school, and pushes them to the Islamic schools.

                                "The move is seen as being linked to the increasing pressure on young girls in country areas to give up their schooling and the dangers deriving from a reduction of the age for starting an apprenticeship to eleven."

                                Defend that, buddy.

                                <And as Elo has demonstrated, they have a better human rights score than does Israel>

                                No he has not. He has demonstrated that in the West Bank - Turkey is better. Israel though - Israel on its own - is better. Better in EVERY measure. By far. Jeff - you really should have read though this information before painting yourself in this corner.

                                <As they say, the devil is in the details, which is why I won't ignore the entirety of these details.>

                                You mean like Elo did? Like YOU just did? If the "devil is in the details", then maybe you should see the details of how Israel is better on EVERY measure. The West Bank is not Israel. Israel is Israel. I have NEVER said anything about the West Bank. Elo did. That's another strawman & ignorant manipulation. He can't blame Israel and show that Turkey is better? Well... Then talk about the West Bank, which we have never talked about.

                                <contrary to Andrews claims, Turkish children are not being forced to go to religious schooling.>

                                They are having their secular education curtailed in order to allow it to be easier for them to go to Islamic schools - NOT TO MENTION that GIRLS NOW WILL BE TOSSED OUT OF SCHOOL. Fucking hell, Jeff. Do your own fucking research. AT LEAST read the fucking story that started all of this. Kids can now be taken out of school - where outside of the bigger cities where it's more conservative, girls will not go back to school after their 11th year of age, and, I'll post this again, "The move is seen as being linked to the increasing pressure on young girls in country areas to give up their schooling and the dangers deriving from a reduction of the age for starting an apprenticeship to eleven."

                                <Lowering the REQUIRED years of formal schooling is quite different than simply lower the number of years of formal schooling.>

                                That depends. As I mentioned many times, this minimizes the amount of time that these kids will spend in secular schools - and in the case of girls, they may never go back, or kids may be forced into "apprenticeship at eleven". That's fine with you? Seriously?

                                <Much like here in the US a child is REQUIRED to go to school until they are 16, but then can legally drop out.>

                                Yeah, man. That's FIVE years more. PLUS - it's not done in order to HELP secular education. It's designed to HARM secular education. As I pointed out, over and over and over again. And, you are defending this... Odd.

                                <Civil rights are the core of what I would consider to be successful Democracies.>

                                I don't care what YOU consider to be "successful Democracies". We were talking about democracy in general. Now you put in "successful"? I see. Moving them goalposts, 'eh?
                                • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                  Wed, March 21, 2012 - 12:03 PM
                                  <<"FORCED" only if they want to have longer school years

                                  I have explained this twice now and you are still not getting it. Shortening the REQUIREMENT for schooling is NOT the same as actually shortening the number of years that public schooling is available. What that means is that they have the option of staying in public schooling for the same number of years as was previously available. So your claim that they HAVE to go to a religious school if they want to have more years at school is false.

                                  <<I won't get into a semantic argument with you, but it sounds like since their secular schools will be closing their mandatory years...

                                  Nothing is "closed", the same number of school years in public school will still be available. You are confusing that which is mandatory wtih the total number of years available for public school in Turkey.

                                  << "The goals of an education reform bill introduced by the Islamic party of Turkey's Premier Recep Tayyip Erdogan have been characterised by opposition parties as aiming to halve the length of compulsory schooling to promote more Koranic schools..."

                                  Yes, "compulsory", ie, REQUIRED. The REQUIREMENT is not the same as the total number of public school years available.

                                  <<Help me figure out how if they half the length of compulsory schooling, how will this not push kids into these religious schools?

                                  Maybe you should look up what the word "compulsory" means, you are very confused. I don't really understand how this can be confusing being that I even explained it to you in US terms. "Compulsory Schooling" in the US is until you are 16, that does not mean that schooling is only available to you until you are 16 and then you are forced out. This is very simple, so I am absolutely confused by your confusion.
                                  • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                    Wed, March 21, 2012 - 1:05 PM
                                    <Shortening the REQUIREMENT for schooling is NOT the same as actually shortening the number of years that public schooling is available.>

                                    Y'r splitting hairs and focusing on a specific. The point that I was making is that doing this will cause/allow (you pick the word) kids to be taken/forced out of school, to either a religious school OR ... just out. Or, into working. At...11 years old. Why do YOU think that they did this?

                                    <So your claim that they HAVE to go to a religious school if they want to have more years at school is false.>

                                    Many, many will. I am focusing on those that live in more conservative areas.

                                    <Nothing is "closed">

                                    Jesus, you just have to pick on every semantic point, don't you. Yes, "closed" means the mandatory education level. Closed/done/finished/ended/limited/etc. You pick the word then. They all mean the same thing.

                                    <You are confusing that which is mandatory wtih the total number of years available for public school in Turkey.>

                                    These are the two, same things. Now, mandatory means up to year 11 of a kid's life. Unless I'm missing something, they can be taken out of school at age 11.

                                    <Yes, "compulsory", ie, REQUIRED. The REQUIREMENT is not the same as the total number of public school years available.>

                                    It's "compulsory" that they go to school until they are 11 years old. After that?

                                    <then you are forced out.>

                                    I never said that they would be "forced out". I said over and over, just like this story - many would be forced into religious, work schools or out of school altogether.

                                    <The number of years of public schooling available has not been shortened, only that which is compuslory.>

                                    The difference is in the religiosity of the parent. It'll be "shortened" - to age 11 - for many, many kids. Because they want to a) move kids into religious schools, and b) move them OUT of secular schools. ESPECIALLY girls.

                                    <So if you ignore the Palestinian issues then Israel is better right? LOL...... :)~>

                                    Yes. Israel is not the West Bank. The West Bank is a different measure - which is why IN ALL OF THESE MEASURES, ISRAEL IS A SEPARATE ISSUE!!!!!!! Or, is that some kind of Jewey conspiracy?

                                    <So you are asserting that human rights issues only count if they occur within the borders of your country?>

                                    For these measures? Absolutely. 100%. Israel is Israel. The West Bank was not Israel. The ONLY reason that you and Elo want to combine the two is because it makes Israel look bad. That's a manipulation, that's dishonest.

                                    <One can't engage in human rights abuses against those in the West Bank? Sorry, but I don't think that is how it works.>

                                    These measures do not speak of actions taken OUTSIDE of their country. That'd be a DIFFERENT kind of measure.

                                    <I have not moved anything, my words, my meaning, my clarification. Deal with it.>

                                    I notice that you did not talk about how girls will now in all probability be treated, or kids ...11 year old KIDS... moving to working instead of school. Nice. You hinge your whole debate on semantics...but ignore the main point. Why? Because there IS no defense for this EXCEPT that it's a way for the 'moderate' current government to move in the direction of moving more conservative. This shows their real colors. Wanna talk about the MEANING of this change, instead of staying away in the land of Semantics? What do YOU think about how this will effect so many of these 11 year old kids?

                                    • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                      Wed, March 21, 2012 - 3:14 PM
                                      <<<Shortening the REQUIREMENT for schooling is NOT the same as actually shortening the number of years that public schooling is available.>

                                      Y'r splitting hairs and focusing on a specific. <<

                                      Actually the difference speaks directly to your claim that children and their parents will have no other choice but drop out and go to religious schooling. And yes the specifics matter. So tell me, how does something that directly contradicts your claim = "splitting hairs"?

                                      <<The point that I was making is that doing this will cause/allow (you pick the word) kids to be taken/forced out of school, to either a religious school

                                      "Can" = a choice, you said they have no choice, that these parentes will have no other option but to send their kids religous schooling. That is patently false.

                                      <<Why do YOU think that they did this?

                                      I already told you, please do read and pay attention to that which has already been written.

                                      <<<So your claim that they HAVE to go to a religious school if they want to have more years at school is false.>

                                      Many, many will. <<

                                      Again, "will" is quite different than 'have to'.

                                      <<Jesus, you just have to pick on every semantic point, don't you.

                                      You have repeatedly misrepresented the change in schooling requirements, when I pointed out your error you doubled down and repeated your erroneous claims. And being that there is quite a difference between parents having a choice and parents being forced, ie., no choice, then clearly it is more than a semantic point. Parents CAN send their kids to Catholic school here in the US, but they are not 'forced' to being that they have that choice.

                                      <<Now, mandatory means up to year 11 of a kid's life.

                                      And in the US you can send you child to a Catholic school from the get go, I myself attended religious schooling in the 1st grade.

                                      <<<then you are forced out.>

                                      I never said that they would be "forced out".<<

                                      You said they have no other choice, that = forced. In addition, this entire aspect of the conversation stemmed from a request that you demonstrate where religious law was being involuntarily imposed upon the people in Turkey, and you responded with this schooling example. Sorry, but giving them a choice does not = forced or imposed.

                                      <<<So you are asserting that human rights issues only count if they occur within the borders of your country?>

                                      For these measures? Absolutely. 100%.>>

                                      Who decided this? You all on your own because it is convenient for your argument?

                                      <<Or, is that some kind of Jewey conspiracy?

                                      I am unclear as to why you would even use the that kind of language. Jewey? Really?

                                      <<The West Bank was not Israel. The ONLY reason that you and Elo want to combine the two is because it makes Israel look bad. That's a manipulation, that's dishonest.

                                      Of course Isreal is Israel, nobody indicated otherwise. You are under the mistaken impression that human rights abuses are confined to the states borders, the international community would vehemently disagree with you. The ONLY reason that you want to compartmentalize their human rights record is because it makes Isreal look bad. That's manipulation, that's dishonest.

                                      <<These measures do not speak of actions taken OUTSIDE of their country.

                                      What is the "measure"?

                                      <<I notice that you did not talk about how girls will now in all probability be treated, or kids ...11 year old KIDS... moving to working instead of school. Nice.

                                      I clearly stated that I don't support children being able to drop out and go to religous schooling. You are scraping the bottom of the barrel in an attempt to color me in a bad light, so how about if we stop with the bullshit and discuss this in a manner that is devoid of character assassination.

                                      <<there IS no defense for this

                                      You need to pay closer attention I clearly stated that I am not defending this. Are you purposefully mischaracterizing my position? Did you purposefully mischaracterize the schooling requirements in Turkey? You are leading me directly down a path of believing that you are not interested in an honest and forthright discussion. Either that are you are not paying very close attention, with the end result being numerous mistakes on your part.

                                      <<What do YOU think about how this will effect so many of these 11 year old kids?

                                      First of all you don't know how many will be affected. Second, I already indicated that I disagree and that children should go to public school K through 12. READ what is written, pay closer attention, and maybe.....just maybe you won't make so many errors.
                                      • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                        Wed, March 21, 2012 - 5:05 PM
                                        <Actually the difference speaks directly to your claim that children and their parents will have no other choice but drop out and go to religious schooling.>

                                        Dude, why do you love semantics so much? Here's the reality:

                                        Because of this, kids will be taken out of their government-regulated, secular schools and either moved into religious schools, OR, maybe not go to school ever again - at age 11.

                                        Forget the semantic points of how I used words before. My point stands. You can 'win' the point by picking at words or you can talk about the issue at hand. Wouldn't you rather talk about the issue rather than just some words? What do you get out of picking on words when the reality is that this is incredibly destructive to their education system and shows how their kind of 'conservative' is sooooooooooooooooooooo different than ours.

                                        <And in the US you can send you child to a Catholic school from the get go, I myself attended religious schooling in the 1st grade.>

                                        Or they can keep their kids out of school. Or send them to work. Sounds great! Wanna talk about the reality or will you just spend your time debating semantics? I honestly do not understand how you enjoy talking about semantics but not the actual POINT AT HAND. Makes no sense to me. Why do you bother then if you're not interested in the main point at hand?

                                        <Who decided this? You all on your own because it is convenient for your argument?>

                                        No..........because EVER measure that I posted considers that. We are talking about Israel. We are not talking about the West Bank. If you would like to talk about the West Bank to non-Israeli citizens, then do it. Start a thread. We are talking about Israel. For that matter, by the way - the PA is FAR WORSE than Israel on EVERY ONE of these measure. Some are understandable - education & such, it'll take them years to build up their society around these kinds of things, but how about civil rights & free speech? Wanna debate that? You wanna see instances of the PA shutting down newspapers? You wanna read news reports about them jailing reporters there? No? Yes? I HAVE done the research. I KNOW that the PA has shut down newspapers and arrested reporters. They still do it. Wanna talk about that, compared to in Israel? No? Didn't think so. 'Reporters Without Borders 2007 report on Israel states: "The country's journalists enjoy a freedom not found elsewhere in the region,...'" Really? Wanna go there? No. Didn't think so.

                                        THAT is why you guys will force a discussion about the West Bank, because - quite simply - Israeli is better. Do they need to get better? Of course. Lots better. But that does not stop that they are better. Much better. Than EVERYONE in this context.

                                        <I am unclear as to why you would even use the that kind of language. Jewey? Really?>

                                        HA! Yeah. Me & Jon Stewart are using some kind of bigoted language. HA!

                                        <Of course Isreal is Israel, nobody indicated otherwise.>

                                        Then let's talk about Israel. You want to talk about the West Bank? Let's do it. Start a thread.

                                        <You are under the mistaken impression that human rights abuses are confined to the states borders>

                                        You are under the mistaken impression that the topic of this conversation is about anything outside of the borders of the countries in question - in this case, Israel & Turkey, specifically.

                                        <the international community would vehemently disagree with you.>

                                        A) They didn't set the premise of this discussion. I did. You want to expand the discussion to fit your agenda? Start another thread.
                                        B) This is a known manipulation, when people want to demonize Israel - but can't - they will start this shit. Sadly, you do not have the integrity to simply say, 'Yes, Andrew. Israel is better than Turkey & the entire region around Israel on every measure that anyone can find, but I would like to talk about how Israel treats the citizens of the West Bank.' Do that, Jeff. Man up and admit that Israel is better. There is on question about it so it's not like it'd cost your argument to be honest, find some integrity and say this. I'll admit ANY DAY when the Turks or any country around Israel does something good. Having the integrity to admit this does not take away from any point that I may have. My agenda is not to just talk shit about Turkey or MENA. My agenda is to be honest with the realities. I don't expect this same level of integrity or honesty from people here - I gave up that fantasy a long, long time ago. You guys exist to prove to yourself your own realities, not ACTUAL reality.

                                        ACTUAL REALITY: Israel is better than every other country in question.

                                        YOUR REALITY: Since the ACTUAL REALITY is tough to argue against, open up the discussion in order to find a place to dig.

                                        Good on ya'!

                                        <The ONLY reason that you want to compartmentalize their human rights record is because it makes Isreal look bad. That's manipulation, that's dishonest.>

                                        No. Not at all. You can insist your reality is true & believe that if you want, but I want to compare apples to apples, and oranges to oranges. If I am going to compare Israel vs Turkey - let's talk about Israel vs Turkey, and not Israel + West Bank & anywhere else. But, don't argue with me. Argue with every site/org that I posted if you want.

                                        <What is the "measure"?>

                                        Each site that I posted had a measure. Argue with them.

                                        <READ what is written, pay closer attention, and maybe.....just maybe you won't make so many errors.>

                                        Y'r so cute.


                                        • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                          Wed, March 21, 2012 - 5:23 PM
                                          <<Dude, why do you love semantics so much?

                                          It has absolutely nothing to do with semantics, that is simply the excuse you are putting forth in the wake fo overstating what is happening in Turkey. Your erroneous words completely change the meaning of what is being proposed in Turkey, that is not semantics, that is pervaying falsehoods.

                                          <<Because of this, kids will be taken out of their government-regulated, secular schools and either moved into religious schools, OR, maybe not go to school ever again - at age 11.

                                          I already recognized that this can happen Andrew, it is not something I disagreed with. Repeating yourself is not going to change the fact that you misrepresented what is being proposed in Turkey.

                                          <<I honestly do not understand how you enjoy talking about semantics

                                          I honestly can't understand why you can't admit that you misrepresented what is being proposed in Turkey.

                                          <<We are talking about Israel.

                                          No shit dude!! WTF? Yes, we are talking about Israel and their Human Rights Record, one that extends beyond their borders. Me thinks you are purposefully obtuse.

                                          <<<I am unclear as to why you would even use the that kind of language. Jewey? Really?>

                                          HA! Yeah. Me & Jon Stewart are using some kind of bigoted language. HA! >>

                                          I did not say you used bigoted language, but I am confused by your use of such language. Are you Jewish like John Steward?

                                          <<<Of course Isreal is Israel, nobody indicated otherwise.>

                                          Then let's talk about Israel. You want to talk about the West Bank? Let's do it. Start a thread. <<

                                          What are you even talking about? How is this even an appropriate response to what I wrote? You are making less and less sense as the conversation progresses.

                                          <<You are under the mistaken impression that the topic of this conversation is about anything outside of the borders of the countries in question - in this case, Israel & Turkey, specifically.

                                          We have been making regional comparisons have we not? Yourself included right? You are not making any sense again.

                                          <<
                                          <the international community would vehemently disagree with you.>

                                          <the international community would vehemently disagree with you.>

                                          A) They didn't set the premise of this discussion.

                                          But the international community can and does decide what constitutes human rights abuses, NOT YOU. Beyond the fact that this thread was started by Tandy, NOT YOU. You sir are not the sole arbiter of what constitutes relevance to this discussion.

                                          << Jeff. Man up

                                          Your ego must be really wounded for you to be engaging in this kind of chest puffing bluster, I will not be ordered around by your limping ego. I know it hurts to be caught in untruths, but lashing out like this is going to do nothing to help your case. As a matter of fact, as soon as I see this kind of bluster I gloss over what you are writing being that I would rather skip the bullshit.

                                          <<Y'r so cute.

                                          Hitting on me is not going to help your ego either. Admit you lied or were mistaken and move on.
                                          • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                            Thu, March 22, 2012 - 10:42 AM
                                            And just for clarification: "I already recognized that this can happen Andrew, it is not something I disagreed with." By this I meant that I don't disagree with your position that an 11 year old child should not be pulled out of public school.

                                            Now, the question still remains, has this proposal become law? And do you know if these religious schools will not have to meet public school standards, much like Catholic Schools here in the US? Because you indicated that these schools will not have to meet these standards, but I don't see where that is indicated in Tandy's link. Neither do I see where they will be cutting public school funding as you have claimed. Did I miss something?
                                          • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                            Fri, March 23, 2012 - 3:12 AM
                                            <It has absolutely nothing to do with semantics>

                                            semantics se·man·tics (Noun)
                                            Noun:
                                            The branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning.
                                            The meaning of a word, phrase, sentence, or text: "such quibbling over semantics may seem petty stuff".

                                            Uh...semantically, it has everything to do with semantics.

                                            <I already recognized that this can happen Andrew, it is not something I disagreed with.>

                                            Then...why'r you spending your valuable waking hours on this?

                                            <No shit dude!! WTF?>

                                            That's what I've been saying. No shit, 'eh?

                                            <Yes, we are talking about Israel and their Human Rights Record>

                                            Yup. We're in agreement! Woo-hoo!

                                            <one that extends beyond their borders.>

                                            Oh. Crap. We had it for just one minute! So close! So close!

                                            <Me thinks you are purposefully obtuse.>

                                            Me thinks that I set the premise, so one can't be obtuse if one sets the premise. I am talking about how EVERY listing that I found talked about Israel within Israel - not your pet issue of forcing this to be about Israel "beyond their borders". Again - if YOU want to talk about that, then start a thread.

                                            <Are you Jewish like John Steward?>

                                            How do you know John Stewart is Jewish. That doesn't sound very Jewey to me.

                                            <Beyond the fact that this thread was started by Tandy, NOT YOU. You sir are not the sole arbiter of what constitutes relevance to this discussion.>

                                            Yeah, true - you got me with that one. But I may have been the one that turned the discussion to relating to Israel. Somewhere it started to be about Israel and Israel vis a vie Turkey, and I think that I was the one that hit the turn signal with that one.

                                            <Admit you lied or were mistaken and move on.>

                                            That I used words that caused you to spend all this time chasing down what you want as a specific meaning? Sure! I surely did not express myself to your specifications. Y'r right.

                                            <Ultimately I have not studied the two countries enough to form a final dick measuring contest about who is "better">

                                            Too bad for you that I posted like...oh, five measurements. You can't call those org's bullshit, so...you don't have to study anything. Just click on the links, my man. I know that you REALLY want to argue with me, but in extension - y'r arguing with them, and they ALL say that Israel is not just better than Turkey (100% of them judged that), but better then than all of MENA and much of the world. That's gotta chafe.

                                            <Try it dude, you just may cultivate a new found respect.>

                                            Ha. I won't wait up for that one.

                                            No. I have already moved on.

                                            • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                              Fri, March 23, 2012 - 9:21 AM
                                              <<Uh...semantically, it has everything to do with semantics.

                                              You indicated I was playing a semantics game, but it is not a game when your erroneous words completely change what is actually happening in Turkey. Can I point out your errors and yet still oppose this proposed law? Absolutely, but let's evaluate reality rather than your hyperbolic mischaracterizations.

                                              <<Then...why'r you spending your valuable waking hours on this?

                                              Because you exaggerated what is happening in Turkey.

                                              <<Me thinks that I set the premise, so one can't be obtuse if one sets the premise.

                                              What a piss poor excuse.

                                              << Again - if YOU want to talk about that, then start a thread.

                                              I can talk about whatever I want, deal with it. This is not even your thread for christ sake.

                                              <<<Are you Jewish like John Steward?>

                                              How do you know John Stewart is Jewish. <<

                                              Maybe....cuz he jokes about being Jewish ALL the time?

                                              <<But I may have been the one that turned the discussion to relating to Israel.

                                              And yet you indicated that talking about Israel is off-topic, a criticism you leveled at Elo and myself. How does it feel to be talking yourself in circles?

                                              << I surely did not express myself to your specifications.

                                              Sorry bud, the truth does not = my "specifications".

                                              Beyond that, you have completely ignored questions that are directly relevant to the topic of this thread. Now, the question still remains, has this proposal become law? And do you know if these religious schools will not have to meet public school standards, much like Catholic Schools here in the US? Because you indicated that these schools will not have to meet these standards, but I don't see where that is indicated in Tandy's link. Neither do I see where they will be cutting public school funding as you have claimed. Did I miss something?
                                              • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                                Sun, March 25, 2012 - 9:54 PM
                                                <Because you exaggerated what is happening in Turkey.>

                                                Tell that to the reporters in jail. To the other symptoms of a move towards a more Islamic conservative government.

                                                <What a piss poor excuse.>

                                                It's not an "excuse" if that's reality. The issue here is that you don't like the reality, so you are trying to change it to better suit your agenda & bias. Your agenda is to sully any argument that can POSSIBLY make Israel not look bad. Your bias is what fuels you.

                                                <I can talk about whatever I want, deal with it. This is not even your thread for christ sake.>

                                                True. That's the first time that you've been right today.

                                                <Now, the question still remains, has this proposal become law?>

                                                THAT is a good question. My thought on this is that since the government is trending conservative, it'll pass (if it has not already).

                                                <And do you know if these religious schools will not have to meet public school standards, much like Catholic Schools here in the US?>

                                                Do you know if they have ANY such thing as "school standards"? The country is one foot in the stone ages. Do you know anything about their education system? It is a joke. "...inadequacies of the public system increasingly motivates middle-class parents to seek private education." Same as here, I suppose...maybe. I mean, the STATEMENT can mirror issues here, but what about the nuance PAST the base similarity? Should we even LOOK for another reason?


                                                • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                                  Mon, March 26, 2012 - 11:40 AM
                                                  <Because you exaggerated what is happening in Turkey.>

                                                  Tell that to the reporters in jail. <<

                                                  Obviously I am speaking of this proposed new school law, so please don't be purposefully obtuse.

                                                  <<The issue here is that you don't like the reality, so you are trying to change it to better suit your agenda & bias.

                                                  I have done no such thing, but it it is clear that you definately have (as everyone can see). You have massively exaggerated this proposed school law in Turkey in order to make it sound worse than it is, this means YOU changed reality to suit yoiur agenda and bias. I did not lie, I did not exaggerate, and I did not jump to giant leaps of illogical conclusions without any basis in reality as you have done regarding this specific school law.

                                                  <<<Now, the question still remains, has this proposal become law?>

                                                  THAT is a good question. <<

                                                  Maybe it was one you should have asked yourself before going on half cocked with baseless assumptions.

                                                  <<
                                                  <And do you know if these religious schools will not have to meet public school standards, much like Catholic Schools here in the US?>

                                                  Do you know if they have ANY such thing as "school standards"?<<

                                                  You should know being that you definatively asserted that they won't have to meet the same standards. Are you now admitting you pulled that out of thin air? That it was assumption with no basis in fact or evidence? That you exaggerated numerous specifics in order to lend false support to your argument?
                                            • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                              Fri, March 23, 2012 - 9:24 AM
                                              If you can't answer these questions it will be an admission that you exaggerated much more than we originally thought.
                                              • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                                Sun, March 25, 2012 - 10:26 PM
                                                <If you can't answer these questions it will be an admission that you exaggerated much more than we originally thought.>

                                                Ha!

                                                <Isreal was built at its foundations ontop of another people and in so doing crushed them, asking us to ingore that because it makes Isreal look bad is a non starter.>

                                                That's called a 'base rate fallacy', I believe.

                                                <You'll have to come up with something better than your personal dislike of Islam in making a case against this in Turkey.>

                                                [Accusation of bigotry]
                                                • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                                  Mon, March 26, 2012 - 11:55 AM
                                                  Andrew, you also made the assertion that they are cutting public school funding based on this new law, yet ANOTHER claim I can find no support for. Yet again you are trying to distort reality to fit your argument. Thusfar you have put forth four distortions/falsehoods without any basis in evidence or fact:

                                                  1.) You asserted that Turkey is cutting the available public school years available for children: False.

                                                  2.) You asserted that this would result in children having no choice but to attend religious schooling if they wanted to continue their education: False

                                                  3.) You asserted that this proposal cuts public school funding: False.

                                                  4.) You asserted that these religious schools won't have to meet public school standards: False

                                                  So tell me again who is trying to fit reality around their agenda and bias? Clearly the evidence indicates that would be you Andrew. I have not lied, I have not distorted, and I have not made shit up out of thin air.
                                            • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                              Sat, March 24, 2012 - 1:40 AM
                                              <not your pet issue of forcing this to be about Israel "beyond their borders". >

                                              your seriously saying that the Israeli Palestine conflict is a "pet issue" of Jeffs, its only an issue that just about everyone in the world is aware of, even as far as South America and China.

                                              Isreal was built at its foundations ontop of another people and in so doing crushed them, asking us to ingore that because it makes Isreal look bad is a non starter.

                                              Its kind of like America asking us to ignore what it done in Vietnam because it wasnt in America. Really, i can see your going to persist in that ridiculous stupidity so not much point in pressing it much futher.

                                              As to the school issues in Turkey again it seems devoid of logic.

                                              The key factor is children in Turkey still have the choice between secular and religious education. Yet you seem to make an assumption based on your personal prejudices that religious education is inferior, even though i have pointed out that in many places there actually better schools.

                                              The prime minster of Turkey was educated in a religious school and he is hardly noted for stupidity, many of London's best schools are religious schools.

                                              You'll have to come up with something better than your personal dislike of Islam in making a case against this in Turkey. If it was being forced on people id agree with you - but its not.


                                              • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                                Sat, March 24, 2012 - 5:40 PM
                                                there are way to many posts here for me to get back into this. i think that the big picture is that i dont see how turkey is getting better if on one hand it does good things but on the other it is slowly pushing a more conservative direction. i think that it is way to early to say that htis is better. just because some things are better does not mean that it is getting better. the second story si about a journalist in jail for a year. elo goes on to say that its not hte governments fault. wow. so the good things are theres but the bad ones are not. there is no having a real talk with people like that. he will look for the things that he can say are good and find reasons for the bad things not being so bad. thats thinking for you.
                                                • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                                  Mon, March 26, 2012 - 11:33 AM
                                                  << i think that the big picture is that i dont see how turkey is getting better if on one hand it does good things but on the other it is slowly pushing a more conservative direction.

                                                  You are working under the mistaken impression that everything is black and white, good and evil, progressive or regressive, that there is no gray area, and that progression and regression in differing areas can't happen Simultaneously. Reality is that there is a lot of gray area, progression in some areas, regression in others, which is no surprise in a Democracy being that the same thing happens here in our country. Proposals being put forth by the GOP in our own country are just as crazy if not crazier than this school proposal in Turkey.
                                                  • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                                    Tue, March 27, 2012 - 2:11 PM
                                                    Speaking of an emotional reaction, Jeff - surely, if this was not an emotionally-charged issue and it was not you on Tribe, you'd admit that there's a difference between different kinds of conservativism in different parts of the world.

                                                    Here in America, our Conservatives are different than their Conservatives, our laws are written differently than their laws and the effect on the people of their version of Conservative affects their country & people & progress FAR more differently. Surely you can admit that, right?

                                                    For instance, there are many kinds of oranges, right? Not all oranges are the same.
                                                    • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                                      Wed, March 28, 2012 - 11:06 AM
                                                      <<Here in America, our Conservatives are different than their Conservatives,

                                                      Sure, the GOP here in the US is actually proposing more extreme legislation than they are in Turkey. Or did I miss where they are probing rape victims vagina's in before a woman can get an abortion that country?
                                                    • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                                      Wed, March 28, 2012 - 1:01 PM
                                                      So the question remains, based on this proposed legislation does that then mean America is getting "worse"? Or is that an oversimplification that does not really take in to account the many and varied issues in this country?
                                                    • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                                      Wed, March 28, 2012 - 1:03 PM
                                                      I am also curious if you are willing to address the fact that you were fitting the facts to your argument? Something you accused me of, and yet the evidence clearly indicates that this is practice you were engaging in. Maybe you missed my post, here it is again.

                                                      Andrew, you also made the assertion that they are cutting public school funding based on this new law, yet ANOTHER claim I can find no support for. Yet again you are trying to distort reality to fit your argument. Thusfar you have put forth four distortions/falsehoods without any basis in evidence or fact:

                                                      1.) You asserted that Turkey is cutting the available public school years available for children: False.

                                                      2.) You asserted that this would result in children having no choice but to attend religious schooling if they wanted to continue their education: False

                                                      3.) You asserted that this proposal cuts public school funding: False.

                                                      4.) You asserted that these religious schools won't have to meet public school standards: False

                                                      So tell me again who is trying to fit reality around their agenda and bias? It is no fault to admit you are human and that you responded emotionally rather than factually.
                                                  • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                                    Thu, March 29, 2012 - 1:56 PM
                                                    ...
                                                    • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                                      Thu, March 29, 2012 - 2:02 PM
                                                      I just wrote a long and involved response to this whole thread, but then I though - 'Why should I? All this is going to do is get into another back & forth mess.' So, I killed it.

                                                      In short: Time will tell. I think that only through the next ten years can we see what will happen and lets just let it die. We can all guess what will happen, but no one knows.
                                                      • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                                        Thu, March 29, 2012 - 4:01 PM
                                                        Andrew, why are you unable to recognize the four examples I have provided that demonstrate you were trying to fit the facts around your belief? Hiding your head in the sand will not make them go away, they are a matter of record.
                                                      • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                                        Fri, March 30, 2012 - 5:52 AM
                                                        <In short: Time will tell. I think that only through the next ten years can we see what will happen and lets just let it die. We can all guess what will happen, but no one knows.>

                                                        I've already proven that Turkey -

                                                        1 Have improved substantially civil and political rights in Turkey as assessed by the most reliable Independent think tank on such matters

                                                        2 Turkey have improved enormously there economy in the last 10 years, tripling the size of it in just 10 years.


                                                        Both above have already happened and are facts not opinions, we dont have to wait and see for that its already on the record.

                                                        Whether that progress continues or not IS a matter of opinion, but what has already occurred is not. You and Tandy first started off saying Turkey had got worse, now your backtracking and saying we dont know we will have to see. Both points of view are wrong, there has already been clear progress - the only thing we dont know is the future, but based upon the last ten years we can be quite confident there will be more progress.
                                                        • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                                          Mon, April 2, 2012 - 12:59 PM
                                                          <<1 Have improved substantially civil and political rights in Turkey as assessed by the most reliable Independent think tank on such matters

                                                          2 Turkey have improved enormously there economy in the last 10 years, tripling the size of it in just 10 years. <<

                                                          And yet Tandy calls this a "little progress", when reality is such that Turkey has reformed and implimented Democracy in a manner quicker than any country I can remember.
                                                  • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                                    Thu, March 29, 2012 - 1:59 PM
                                                    -----You are working under the mistaken impression that everything is black and white, good and evil, progressive or regressive, that there is no gray area, and that progression and regression in differing areas can't happen Simultaneously.

                                                    sorry but i just think that conservativism is bad. look at the whole world where any religion turns more conservative. has it gotten better anywhere?

                                                    -----Proposals being put forth by the GOP in our own country are just as crazy if not crazier than this school proposal in Turkey.

                                                    sorry but when most of our country are one religion and they want the country to turn more conservative using that religion i will worry then.

                                                    -----I am not playing with words, I am correctly pointing out that your vague and generalized statements don't really speak to the details.

                                                    details are just your way to squeese an issue to allow for you to be right.

                                                    -------Israel is a country that has elected a conservative leader thereby demonstrating that they themselves are trending conservative. Of course that will change again, the pendulum between conservative and liberal swings away in Democratic countries.

                                                    i really doubt that turkey will be moving less conservative and i dont know about israel. its in genaral a more liberal country so if we had to bet i would bet that turkey goes more conservative and israel is a be question.

                                                    ------Because I don't take the simple view of "better" and/or "worse" without evaluating the specifics. Better on many fronts, worse on a few other fronts. As they say, the devil is in the details, which is why I won't ignore the entirety of these details.

                                                    weasel words. when they do the things that they are doing that have been talked about that is getting worse. you just are relying on not having to take a stand.

                                                    -----Because you don't think Muslims are ready for Democracy, and the example of a Democratic Turkey hurts your argument.

                                                    i dont know if i ever said that exactly that. the closest that i have said is that islam is not very able to work within democracy and most muslim countries cant be libereal because their religion forbades it but ready? maybe and maybe not. name one muslim country that is liberal and then tell me which countries do better for themselves nad their people. the more liberal or more conservative ones.

                                                    -----So it has taken you this long to admit their improvements on many fronts? We had to drag you kicking and screaming in to that position?

                                                    how can you read what i say and then change it even though my actual words are right above? i said some not many.

                                                    ----How so?

                                                    because a conservative muslim country will infringe on peopes rights. here we still have our constitution to stop it from going to far. in turkey we saw how the pork butchers were stopped. that would not have happened here right? and cafes that sold liquor? closed because they sold liquor? same. we still have abortion here which are safe and legal but in turkey they have recently changed the law to make it that only a one kind of doctor can do an aboriton so in rural areas there is no access to abortions. that is conservative for you. do you think that a different kind of conservative or not?

                                                    ------The only fantasy here is the false assertion that I have called either of you "racist".

                                                    elo did. i never said that yo udid.
                                                    • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                                      Thu, March 29, 2012 - 3:35 PM
                                                      <<-----You are working under the mistaken impression that everything is black and white, good and evil, progressive or regressive, that there is no gray area, and that progression and regression in differing areas can't happen Simultaneously.

                                                      sorry but i just think that conservativism is bad<<

                                                      Conservatism in some form or another exists throughout the world in many and varied ways, there is no way to get past that. It is a simple fact of human nature, conservatives and liberals think differently, our brains work differently, and so we approach the world from different ends of the spectrum. I view the entire idea like one would a train, far left liberals and progressives are the driving force in the engine of progress so that we America can move foward. Far right Conservatism by nature is resistant to moving forward and thus act as a braking system in the caboose of the train, and the brakes of course keep the train from going off the tracks. The rest of our country makes up the ideological spectrums in between the engine and caboose.

                                                      Be that as it may, the fact still remains that the world is not just black and white, good and evil, progressive or regressive. Our own country is a mixed bag, progression on some fronts, regression on others. Obamacare = progression in my opinion. The crazy GOP transvaginal penetration of rape victims = regression. So if one does as you are doing with Turkey and only pointing out that which is regressive, and then saying that = things getting "worse", then clearly your assessment is one sided being that it ignores the progressive changes that have happened.

                                                      <<-----Proposals being put forth by the GOP in our own country are just as crazy if not crazier than this school proposal in Turkey.

                                                      sorry but when most of our country are one religion and they want the country to turn more conservative using that religion i will worry then.<<

                                                      Open your eyes, that is exactly what is going on here. Most of the US is Christian, and the Christian conservatives are trying to push their religous moral beliefs via legislation.

                                                      <<details are just your way to squeese an issue to allow for you to be right.

                                                      Details matter, overgeneralized and overly simplified statements that ignore the details are worthless, meaningless, and completely devoid of critical analysis skills.

                                                      <<i really doubt that turkey will be moving less conservative

                                                      And you base that doubt on what exactly? They have already trended back and forth between becoming more and less progressive, they are a mixed bag like the US in that regard. So why pretend it can never go the other way again?

                                                      <<------Because I don't take the simple view of "better" and/or "worse" without evaluating the specifics. Better on many fronts, worse on a few other fronts. As they say, the devil is in the details, which is why I won't ignore the entirety of these details.

                                                      weasel words<<

                                                      How does critical analyis of the details = weasel words? One can take a childs overly simplified view of the world or one can evaluate the details so as in proper critical analysis of all the facts. Here is a good analogy: Bush took the view that you are taking, overly simplified, black and white, good and evil, no gray area, and a complete lack of balanced critical thought based on the details. Obama is quite the opposite, taking the route of proper critical analysis that takes in to account the details. Essentially your analysis is a Bush-like simpletonian view, mine is more like Obama's view of the world. Think on that.

                                                      <<
                                                      -----Because you don't think Muslims are ready for Democracy, and the example of a Democratic Turkey hurts your argument.

                                                      i dont know if i ever said that exactly that. <<

                                                      Why do you keep forgetting your own words Tandy? You said exactly that. How many times must I remind you? Wait, I have a better response: Weasel words. LOL~

                                                      << name one muslim country that is liberal

                                                      The argument was never about muslim countries being liberal, it was always about their ability to handle Democracy. The Muslim world is behind us in their Democratic progression, this is naturally going to result in their culture being more conservative. And why are they behind us in that regard? Because the US and the western world installed dictators that ruled over their people in a brutal fashion, this directly led to the stagnation we have historically witnessed in the region. The onlye way to break out of that stagnation is via Democracy.
                                                      • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                                        Fri, March 30, 2012 - 6:10 AM
                                                        <because a conservative muslim country will infringe on peopes rights>

                                                        How can you say this when I have already proven to you with the most reliable source that under the last 10 years of Muslim AKP rule Civil and political rights in Turkey have not been infringed on but instead have substantially improved ?

                                                        When are you going to stop lying about Turkey and admit the facts that i have already laid out in front of you ?

                                                        It was the secular military dictatorship in Turkey before this government who infringed on peoples rights, but i guess that wont bother you because it wasn't Muslim, just as I remember you saying Mubarak may have been best for Egyptians. Seems that kind of civil rights infringement doesn't bother you, so long as its not Muslim, which clearly you fear and dislike with a passion.

                                                        Can you take your personal prejudices and bag them, because there really not that interesting or important ?

                                                        Not only above but Turkey has achieved shocking economic growth the last ten years, tripling the size of there economy.

                                                        • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                                          Fri, March 30, 2012 - 10:11 AM
                                                          <<How can you say this when I have already proven to you with the most reliable source that under the last 10 years of Muslim AKP rule Civil and political rights in Turkey have not been infringed on but instead have substantially improved ?

                                                          Looking at Turkey's trend over 10 years not only helps to focus on the historical details, it gives a perspective that one can't see while wearing blinders that restrict ones view to a narrow scope.

                                                          <<Not only above but Turkey has achieved shocking economic growth the last ten years, tripling the size of there economy.

                                                          No no....Turkey is "worse", so that must mean their economy is worse right? I am being sarcastic of course, but this is the exact kind of detail that Tandy avoids, even going so far as to express scorn for the details. It is a simple view that is reflective of the type of black and white thinking that came out of the GW Bush Whitehouse.
                                                          • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                                            Fri, March 30, 2012 - 12:43 PM
                                                            < It is a simple view >

                                                            totally, and when Im saying her and Andrew are prejudiced Im not saying there racily prejudiced against Turks or Arabs, but prejudiced against Islam to the extent that they see that anything Islamic does in politics MUST be bad, regardless of the evidence. Not that im saying there are never problems, of course religion and politics can bring problems, but its not right to see it as inevitably a problem especially when in the last ten years they have overall done well. To me that has got to be a text book definition of prejudice, judging them bad no matter what they do.

                                                            The thing is i see economic development as an essential component for other things like political and social development. Look at how backward Britain was at the start of the industrial revolution politically and socially, working class kids as young as 7 were whipped in factories so bad that some even died if they fell asleep when working 14 hour shifts. China hasn't reformed politically and socially - though there have been some reforms - but its a long long way off being a developed country yet. They are ranked about 100th in the world GDP per head. Its kind of amusing and scary to think of the fact that if China had the same GDP per head as America or Britain, then the Chinese economy would be about 5 times the size of America ! Thats probably 70 - 100 years off but it will come eventually. The mind boggles to think of an economy that size, but then again 100 years ago the mind would have boggled at the size of the US economy now.

                                                            This is why I think Turkey is one to watch, out of the rising economic stars, China, India, Brazil, Russia, the only country that is exceeding Turkey on GDP per head is Russia, non of the others are, but i give Turkey a good chance of beating Russia on that over the next 20 years as Russia has some pretty big challenges to get over economically. So Turkey will be a fully developed country then, it will be intersting to see how that mixes with the whole Islam thing then as they develop.

                                                            Of course eastern countries like South Korea and Taiwan are shooting along like that too.
                                                    • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                                      Thu, March 29, 2012 - 3:42 PM
                                                      <<-----So it has taken you this long to admit their improvements on many fronts? We had to drag you kicking and screaming in to that position?

                                                      how can you read what i say and then change it even though my actual words are right above? i said some not many. <<

                                                      You can't pretend that the progress made in the country is an unknown quantity, we know where they have progressed. And being that they have only been a Democracy for like what? 30 years? They are making progress way faster than we did here in our own nation. If one were to view US policies of 1899 (like you are with Turkey) and use things such as the opression of minorities and women as proof that we can never become more progressive, well that person would have been 100% wrong. You can't view the world with blinders on, blinders that confine your views to a tiny little box, all things must be considered.

                                                      <<because a conservative muslim country will infringe on peopes rights.

                                                      And a conservative Chirstian country will not, right? Is that your thought process? That Conservative Christian males in this country are not trying to infringe upon the rights of women? Is that your claim? That by nature of being Muslim that means a country is more likely to infringe upon the peoples rights?

                                                      <<here we still have our constitution to stop it from going to far.

                                                      Are you pretending that Turkey does not have a constitution that stipulates the secular nature of their state?

                                                      <<because a conservative muslim country will infringe on peopes rights. here we still have our constitution to stop it from going to far. in turkey we saw how the pork butchers were stopped. that would not have happened here right? and cafes that sold liquor? closed because they sold liquor? <<

                                                      You are proving my exact point Tandy, the US made alcohol completely illegal during prohibition. So the fact remains that Turkey never went as far as our own country did. Simple fact.

                                                      <<we still have abortion here which are safe and legal but in turkey they have recently changed the law to make it that only a one kind of doctor can do an aboriton so in rural areas there is no access to abortions.

                                                      And yet abortion is legal in a conservative Muslim country, go figure. Conservatives here in our own country want to make it completely illegal.
                                                • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                                  Mon, March 26, 2012 - 12:46 PM
                                                  Her Tandy, let me help you being that you indicate this thread is too long, here was my latest response to your assertions:

                                                  <<jeff you are the sane guy of you two so now it has come down to just having to play with words?

                                                  I am not playing with words, I am correctly pointing out that your vague and generalized statements don't really speak to the details. Elo and Andrew have put forth specifics as to what has improved and what has not improved, thereby demonstrating that Turkey is a mixed bag. And as Elo has demonstrated, they have a better human rights score than does Israel if you evaluate the entirety of their record, Israel is a country that has elected a conservative leader thereby demonstrating that they themselves are trending conservative. Of course that will change again, the pendulum between conservative and liberal swings away in Democratic countries.

                                                  <<that is getting out of having to admit that its worse. i have seen you here long enough that i know that you think that these things are worse. why wont you just ssay to your opinion they are worse?

                                                  Because I don't take the simple view of "better" and/or "worse" without evaluating the specifics. Better on many fronts, worse on a few other fronts. As they say, the devil is in the details, which is why I won't ignore the entirety of these details.

                                                  <<because then you will be seen as going along wiht me against elo? this is not seventh grade.

                                                  No, it is not 7th grade.....which means you can't ask a question and then assume the answer is yes. I have no problem disagreeing with Elo and have done so many times in the past. My position is based on a balanced evaluation of the entirety of Turkey's position. Your own analysis is one sided and biased to the max. Why? Because you don't think Muslims are ready for Democracy, and the example of a Democratic Turkey hurts your argument.

                                                  <<i know that they are making progress on some fronts right?

                                                  So it has taken you this long to admit their improvements on many fronts? We had to drag you kicking and screaming in to that position?

                                                  <<theres a difference between us or canada getting more conservative and turkey.

                                                  How so?

                                                  <<has canada or us outlawed things agianst our law?

                                                  I am not sure what this sentence even means Tandy, can you rewrite it so that it is understandable?

                                                  <<some states have tried byut not our country.

                                                  Some states have tried what?

                                                  <<you are really losing this one but i know that you cant admit it.

                                                  In your own head Tandy. Mine is a balanced position on Turkey, your extreme bias is clearly apparrent.

                                                  <<so you mean that they are making progress while getting more conservative?

                                                  Yes Tandy, a country can make progress while being religious, and yes even conservative. It ultimately depends on the details and specifics, which is why I have evaluated those specifics in their entirety. Rather than just focusing on that which is convenient to my argument as you have been doing.

                                                  <<-------they will accuse you of racism

                                                  hahaha. calling someone a hypocrite is bad and against the rules but a racist isnt? hahaha. its like they just create some kind of fantasy here. their own fantasy. <<

                                                  The only fantasy here is the false assertion that I have called either of you "racist". I have repeatedly pointed this mistake out, and yet you continue to try and use it against me. Disingenuous to say the least.

                                                  • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                                    Tue, March 27, 2012 - 1:27 PM
                                                    < just because some things are better does not mean that it is getting better. the second story si about a journalist in jail for a year. elo goes on to say that its not hte governments fault. wow. so the good things are theres but the bad ones are not>

                                                    point is Tandy if you read up a bit more quality articles on Turkey you'd understand the complexities of this - dont you think its important that in condemning these journalists being put in prison we should study who is the main force behind their imprisonment ?.

                                                    It is actually wrapped in some mystery, but if you look into it it appears that its corrupt elements of the police force, judiciary, and possibly some elements of the Gulen foundation behind these recent cases. Now the later surprised me about the Gulen foundation because they also do a lot of good work, but power can corrupt and it seems like they have become very popular and powerful in recent years, and maybe that is corrupting elements of them.

                                                    Anyway back to these cases. The reason i say its not all the governments fault is because -

                                                    1 the government do not appear to be the people who pushed for the arrests of these people, infact when two of the most famous journalists were released recently a senior member of the government said he was greatly relived. It is not the government in Turkey who arrests people and put them on trial, its the police and judiciary. It is not the government who pushed for there arrest but senior members of the police, judicory, and some suspect the Gulen foundation - the later only on recent arrests which related to an investigation of the Gulen movement the journalists were taken part in.

                                                    2 the government has sought over the last ten years to combat this over stepping of civil rights by the judiciary. The judiciary has these kinds of power in Turkey because over ten years ago Turkey was in effect a semi dictatorship. Thats why they have powers to arrest people like this and put them in prison. Yet the AKP government this last ten years have reduced the judiciaries powers and changed the constitutions to make these kind of arrests and imprisonment's happen less.


                                                    However, non of the above means to me that the government has no responsibility for this, they should step up efforts on this. But you have to recognize that some of that involves changing the way the whole judicial system works in Turkey, enacting new laws, sometimes even changing the constitution, changing judges and how there appointed, reforming the police and changing and re training sections of the police force. That kind of work takes decades, but clearly the AKP have already started on it which you can see reflected in the improved scores on civil rights in Turkey.

                                                    If your going to have a strong opinion on something like this Tandy, first learn the facts from some quality sources, THEN debate with me on it.



                                                    • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                                      Tue, March 27, 2012 - 1:37 PM
                                                      <It is not the government who pushed for there arrest but senior members of the police, judicory, and some suspect the Gulen foundation - the later only on recent arrests which related to an investigation of the Gulen movement the journalists were taken part in.>

                                                      and just to complicate this more, above only relates to some of these recent arrests, previous to that much of the arrests were not pushed by the Islamic Gulen foundation but by and entirely different opposite force - the old ultra nationalistic forces that were aligned with the military and past semi dictatorship government.

                                                      So in other words what has happened in the last ten years is two very different groups, one - the secular Ultra Nationalist, and two and more recently the Gulen Islamic group - both of them very much opposed to each other, have been teaming up with corrupt sections of the police and judiciary to try and silence there critics by putting them in jail.

                                                      In the meantime the Islamic AKP government has not been driving any of that on either side, but trying to repair and reform the judicory and police force from its dictatorial history to become more fair and free with encouragement from the EU. Clearly they have more work to do, but clearly also they have succeeded in making substantial improvements. Do they need to do more ? absoultly.

                                                      Now Tandy again if your going to express opinions on this at least get your head around the complexities of it first.
                                                      • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                                        Wed, March 28, 2012 - 1:07 PM
                                                        In other words, this reporter issue has absolutely nothing to do with Islamic rule.
                                                        • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                                          Thu, March 29, 2012 - 4:06 PM
                                                          So now we have it, Tandy's first link was a proposal, one that was exaggerated in nature by Andrew. Tandy's second link is actually an example of some of the leftovers from Turkey's dictatorial days, ie, power that is left to the police and military. As opposed to it being an example of the Muslims in Turkey engaging in regressive actions. Next.
                                              • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                                Mon, March 26, 2012 - 11:27 AM
                                                <<your seriously saying that the Israeli Palestine conflict is a "pet issue" of Jeffs,

                                                Yeah, I would hardly characterize the Israeli Palenstine conflict as my "pet issue" being that I have barely addressed the subject in my time on this tribe. But I am not surprised by yet another mischaracterization, it is what happens when people respond emotionally rather than logically.
                                        • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                          Wed, March 21, 2012 - 5:26 PM
                                          It should also be noted that this was a proposed bill, at least according to Tandy's article. Has it been signed in to law? Because I can show you a plethora of religiously based bills being proposed right here in the US by Republicans, the whole war on women's rights and whatnot.
                                          • Unsu...
                                             

                                            Re: turkey is getting better?

                                            Thu, March 22, 2012 - 5:04 PM
                                            <t should also be noted that this was a proposed bill, at least according to Tandy's article. Has it been signed in to law? Because I can show you a plethora of religiously based bills being proposed right here in the US by Republicans, the whole war on women's rights and whatnot.>

                                            The whole war on women's rights and whatnot--- is that the war between the sexes? --- Here is the Muslim way to peace.

                                            Now it must be said, that lying is forbidden in Islam, however so, UNDER 3 OCCASIONS, it is not. This point must be made crystal clear, that it is only under 3 specific circumstances in which a Muslim is allowed to lie, not like the Christian tries to make it seem, that Muslims are always allowed to lie.

                                            These three specific circumstances are as follows:

                                            Sahih MuslimBook 032, Number 6303:

                                            Humaid b. 'Abd al-Rahman b. 'Auf reported that his mother Umm Kulthum daughter of 'Uqba b. Abu Mu'ait, and she was one amongst the first emigrants who pledged allegiance to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him), as saying that she heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good. Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them).

                                            So as you can see, Muslims are allowed to only lie during battle, essentially in war. Muslims are allowed to lie in order to bring peace between two people, and also when a wife and husband are fighting with each other and they lie to bring about an end to their problems.
                                            muslim-responses.com/Islam_on_Lying/
                                    • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                      Wed, March 21, 2012 - 3:23 PM
                                      And contrary to your claims Andrew, you DID use the word "forced". Let's review your own words shall we?

                                      Andrew: " The issue was taking steps that force children into the religious schools. THAT is a problem. If YOUR community started shortening the school day, which forced your children to some conservative Christian school in order to have a full day's study - you'd be fine with that?"

                                      So not only did you use the word "forced", you also erroneously infered that the time available in secular schooling had been reduced thereby forcing them to go to religious schooling to complete their studies.
                                      • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                        Wed, March 21, 2012 - 5:06 PM
                                        <So not only did you use the word "forced", you also erroneously infered that the time available in secular schooling had been reduced thereby forcing them to go to religious schooling to complete their studies.>

                                        Do you feel better now? Now that you got past that, talk about the issue itself. It's bad. We both agree. Wasn't that easy?
                                        • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                          Wed, March 21, 2012 - 5:34 PM
                                          Ultimately I have not studied the two countries enough to form a final dick measuring contest about who is "better", but what I can do is point out blatant falsehoods when I see them. I was right, you were wrong, and yet you continue to speak to me in a snarky manner. So how about you stop the shrill act, "man up" and admit that you were pervaying blatant falsehoods. It only reflects badly on you when you attempt deflect from your own personal mistakes. Admitting your error not only shows maturity, it has a tendency to disarm your opponent. Try it dude, you just may cultivate a new found respect.
                                    • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                      Wed, March 21, 2012 - 4:29 PM
                                      Andrew: "and the secular schools being defunded so that kids have to go to religious schools".

                                      I read Tandy's link and did not see where they were proposing defunding secular schooling. Did I miss something?
                                • Re: turkey is getting better?

                                  Wed, March 21, 2012 - 12:35 PM
                                  <<"The move is seen as being linked to the increasing pressure on young girls in country areas to give up their schooling and the dangers deriving from a reduction of the age for starting an apprenticeship to eleven."

                                  Defend that, buddy.<<

                                  I never indicated I supported this change in "compulsory schooling", so would I need to defend it "buddy"? As a matter of fact, I disagree with the fact that children can drop out of school at 16 here in the US. What I AM doing is clearing your confusion as to what "compulsory schooling" actually means. The number of years of public schooling available has not been shortened, only that which is compuslory.

                                  <<Israel on its own - is better.

                                  So if you ignore the Palestinian issues then Israel is better right? LOL...... :)~

                                  <<<As they say, the devil is in the details, which is why I won't ignore the entirety of these details.>

                                  You mean like Elo did? Like YOU just did?<<

                                  Ilogical, I have clearly acknowledged that which is regressive and that which has progressed. Which means I have evaluated both sides, not just one.

                                  <<then maybe you should see the details of how Israel is better on EVERY measure. The West Bank is not Israel. Israel is Israel.

                                  So you are asserting that human rights issues only count if they occur within the borders of your country? One can't engage in human rights abuses against those in the West Bank? Sorry, but I don't think that is how it works.

                                  <<<contrary to Andrews claims, Turkish children are not being forced to go to religious schooling.>

                                  They are having their secular education curtailed<<

                                  No they are not, secular education will be available for the same number of years. That which is "compulsory" has been reduced.

                                  <<in order to allow it to be easier for them to go to Islamic schools

                                  Certainly that is the reason that "compulsory" schooling was reduced. But again, the number of years available for public schooling remains the same. Are you unaware of our own rules here in the US? That schooling is "compulsory" until you are 16, but you can still finish out your public education until your senior year? I am not sure if you are confused or being purposefully obtuse.

                                  << Fucking hell, Jeff. Do your own fucking research.

                                  Fucking hell, Andrew, pick up a dictionary so you know what "compulsory" means.

                                  << As I mentioned many times, this minimizes the amount of time that these kids will spend in secular schools

                                  Only for those parents that wish to switch to religious schooling, secular schooling is available for the same number of years, contrary to your claims otherwise. Are you confused as to what "compulsory" means? Were you being purposefully obtuse? Or were you mischaracterizing the situation to make it sound worse than it is? Because you clearly indicated that the number of years of public schooling available will be reduced, and that is flat out false.

                                  As a matter of fact, here in our own country you can go to a religious school from K through twelve. I know people who had the entirety of their schooling at a Catholic school.

                                  <<And, you are defending this... Odd.

                                  What is odd is your inability to read with accuracy. Correcting your errors is not the same thing as defending religious schooling.

                                  <<I don't care what YOU consider to be "successful Democracies". We were talking about democracy in general. Now you put in "successful"? I see. Moving them goalposts, 'eh?

                                  I have not moved anything, my words, my meaning, my clarification. Deal with it.
              • Re: turkey is getting better?

                Tue, March 13, 2012 - 4:39 AM
                <****Wait.........wait......... Did you just excuse Turkish behavior? You did! Holy fuck. You just excused Turkish behavior! Don't you understand, Mr. Hypocrite, that when I give reasons - even good reasons - for why Israel does something, you always will just shit on those realities? Yet - here you are. Doing the same fucking thing. Fucking hypocrite. >

                so dumb - while Turkey is improving there record on human rights and the Muslim AKP making significant strides on talking peace with the Kurds and Armenians, Israel constantly eats up and destroys Arab Palestine.

                Do you know the amount of Kurds living in Turkey who want independence ? its tiny, i looked it once, cant remember the exact figure but i think less than 5%, you want to take a poll in illegally occupied West Bank about how many want Israels troops to go home and stop torturing them ?

                Anyway im bored ot debating your anti Muslim prejudice, take it to a tea party meeting or something, ive got no use for it. Turkey is doing just fine without you and Tandy and is giong to do even better over the next ten years than they have over the previous ten. They will laugh in the face of your bitterness.
                • Re: turkey is getting better?

                  Tue, March 13, 2012 - 4:41 AM
                  <hyp·o·crite/ˈhipəˌkrit/
                  Noun:
                  A person who indulges in hypocrisy. >

                  when Andrew is proven wrong and runs out of ideas the only thing he has left is name calling, and he's even poor at that.
              • Re: turkey is getting better?

                Sat, March 17, 2012 - 4:44 AM
                And Andrew, can you tell me if human rights abuses committed by Israel are getting better or worse ? Dont tell me you havnt even looked into this about a country you support ? I mean that would be strange right, you have such concern about human rights situation in Turkey, yet in a country that you support, you dont care about whats happening with there human rights record ??

                How come Andrew ?


  • Unsu...
     

    Re: turkey is getting better?

    Sun, March 11, 2012 - 5:29 PM
    Turkey
    (Türkiye Cumhuriyeti) (The Republic of Turkey)
    Hamdullah Aydin, M.D., and Zeynep Gülçat, Ph.D.

    Many ancient cultures of Anatolia, including the Mesopotamian, Sumerian, and Hittite, ... Eighty percent of the population is Turkish and 20 percent are Kurds; 99.8 ... or matriarchal family structures in different Turkish tribes throughout history.
    www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/...urkey.html

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