< I am convinced that the present administration is more afraid of honest conservative Baptists and Methodists finding out what they are up to than they are afraid of the liberals finding out. >
Bill, I am sure you are right and I have often been fond of reminding the White House that the "Peace Movement " has a very deep and sincere core of Christian Spiritual People at its base and that it really ain't liberals they need to be afraid of. It isn't just New Agers and NeoPagan Vegans out here in the fields. I don't expect it to change him but I think it's worth saying.

I am convinced that the present administration is more afraid of honest conservative Baptists and Methodists finding out what they are up to than they are afraid of the liberals finding out.

____________

Oh I agree...

In fact I think there may be a party re-organization some day.

Right now it isn't just the Republicans that are coalition of moral relativists with people who have a strong passion to their own idea of social justice for which there is no room for relativism.

The democrats are similarly a coalition of amoral capitalists of just a different faction bonded with sincerely passionate liberals who may have a different idea of social justice that the Evangelicals, some things actually the same but different priorities...

Personally, I feel the capitalists that finance the dems make self serving arguements that are with just as much self interest in mind, namely rich white people keeping their control and power over anyone not in their caste. The "liberal" among them feel that this is most cheaply and effectively done by making sure the working classes enjoy a reasonably decent standard of living and even if it might seem to weaken profits a bit for higher wage costs, and the poor and unemployed given enough of a welfare state not to start rioting where there could be seeds for real effective leftist insurrection someday. It's greed tempered by some fear, or what some among them justify as "enlightened self interest" the "conservative" among them feel that more of a police state is cheaper, more profitable, than a welfare state and can deliver the same safety and privelege. They have a more optimistic sense that the threshold of difficulty in people's lives before they'd really consider revolt is a much higher bar than with liberals in their caste... and are more willing to take a gamble that they can push people closer to that threshold because the payout can be huge if they do it. The real objection to the upper class of rich white liberals to rich white conservatives is that they are being taken along for a ride in this wager that they don't want to make... that this gamble can turn out badly for all of them. So perhaps as the amoral liberal is greed tempered with fear, the amoral conserative is just greed enhanced with adventurism.

There is no moral outrage between them, they aren't arguing on that level. But they continually set the moral outrage of the others in their political coalitions that they manipulate against one another while they live above it.

So that caste successfully made the people in this country who are capable of moral outrage be divided against one another, and in doing so render one another ineffectual so that their moral outrage couldn't be expressed.

I'll give an example.

Feminists have been long morally outraged at the portrayl of teenaged girls as sex symbols on TV, and movies, that it's exploitative and furthermore sends the wrong message to girls who should be more worried about their careers, school, future, rather than their sexual appeal as a shortcut to seeming advancement which turns out ultimately to be a cinderella story where the woman has no power for having no way to earn an equal means to a man.

Evangelicals have long been morally outraged at the potrayal of teenage sex, girls and boys... for religious reasons. But their indignation was just as passionate. They wanted to see the same things for different reasons, their beleif that examples of teen premarital sexual activity portrayed in pop culture normalizes the concept of "sin" that they wish to teach their teenagers when they can do nothing to Isolate their teens from that pop culture and all too often "lose" their kids to that sirens song.

So even though you might have a feminist mom greiving that her daughter is out partying, having sex, grades falling, and dating boyfreinds who command them around and might even hit them... and you might have an evangelist mom greiving that her daughter is out partying like the liberal's daughter has fallen into Satan's grasp and though her daughters sins may one day be "washed clean" it will leave scars and consequences throughout her life... They cannot work together and accomplish anything together because they are socially engineered to bicker over their reasons being different for wanting the same thing... the media to tone the sexual exploitation marketed to youth. Heck, both of them the feminist and the evangelical wants the same gangsta rap music censored as many black community leaders do who want to end gang violence.... and none of them worked together with the other, the black community leaders resenting white feminist or white evangelical reasons for wanting to restrict rap music lyrics they themselves want censored too...heck, even with conservatives who made promises to evangelicals to clean up TV dominating three branches of government they didn't promise what they delivered... as under Regan and Bush Sr television has only grown more debased and sexually exploitative... more even than under "liberals" with only token gestures to denounce it when they can effectively shut it down.

The Amoral conservative and liberal buisiness people who advocate their conveniently selective beleifs against censorship just care that sex sells and youths are a hot market, and stopping the sex-ploit-tation. They wanted all of these interests to be divided on the matter. So half of them went to one side, half of them went to the other, and encouraged them to fight... and they did. I beleive the whole abortion debate, gay marriage, all of these debates were geared on dividing the working class.

Truth is most evangelicals are poor working people, most true labor active liberals are poorer working people too, together they could be strong and actually would probably obtain what is in the best interests to both. But they are divided. A "liberal" employer benefits from that division as much as a "conservative" employer.

So you say that "more afraid of honest conservative Baptists and Methodists finding out what they are up to than they are afraid of the liberals finding out. ". I'll one up you and say that actually the leaders of both parties are probably terrified of that happening.

Because there is a movement of some democrats to try to create a liberal rhetoric for economic social justice and sincere liberal causes in language that is biblical... but it's always been there. There have long been liberal "Jesus freak" evangelicals like the ones that did stick it to nixon and were very involved in the peace movement and for social welfare. They still exist. The born again movement began with them, Carter was one of them, most of the born agains I remember in the assemblies of God church I went to were ex hippies back in 1970's complete with ultra violet lights for suspicious plants in their basements and pot smoke smells coming from the men's meetings. They did eventually as I got older go from being more liberal to becoming more conservative but there are other congregations I know of that were just as born again that still kept the hippie socially progressive feel to it.. I knew several born again but liberal skater punks, punk rockers, and goths that were very devout and would go on anti war marches and stuff but were a part of a christian outreach of a church run by ex jesus freak hippies.

If a language can be made that unites the interests of common people that beleive in social justice, the feminist with the evangelical woman... the labor activist with the baptist blue collar reprobate alchoholic that just wants clean family living... and it unites them... that small priveledge social class which has everyone divided between liberal and conservative that manipulates those divisions will lose control and have their sense of entitlement to a priveleged life based around self interest and their own personal desires and hungers questioned by what would amount to just about everyone else that has to pay the price for it.

I can see a potential change, though I think many will try to stop it.

I can see a large defection one day of former enemies that beleive in "something" beyond themselves even if they differ on the basis of social justice as to whether it's humanism or "God" into a single party. It's happened in South America with a "christian democracy" success in some elections (definition link here: www.answers.com/topic/chri...democracy). Remember that Aristide was long undermined by the Clinton administration and he could have been a poster child for everything that this coalition could represent, the Dems are just as afraid of that coalition of interests as the Republicans, it would mean the end of both of them.

Because by in large there is no coalition of interest that would have the numbers to beat a christian socially liberal demcrat movement here. So it would force the miserable bedfellows of venture capitalists wailing about loss of power with rich hollywood smut mongers because they don't want to pay for talented actors, writers, bands, so just push the envelope on sex for shock value and everyone will watch and it's so much cheaper... whining about the loss of their artistic freedom when what they've been doing has been anything but art... anti-art cookie cutter T and A... Jerry Springer mixed into the format of a Soap Opera. It's crap, as an artist I hate them and wouldn't feel sorry if they were censored.

Heck, I don't even buy the arguement that my artistic freedom would be limited if these capitalistic hollywood pricks were censored. The reason why artists were needed in the earlier days of hollywood was their talent for insinuation around things, their way of handling a subject of controversey in a compelling way but yet in a way dignified enough through work and talent to cross the line. Paris Hilton and Ginsburg both used obsentity, but Ginsburg could get away with it in his day because he did it with true art but if someone like Paris had tried to use obsentity the way she does in her crass and idiotic way she would have been denounced by everyone including Ginsburg, hell.. probably even by Gloria Steinem for playing the stereotype of the blonde bimbo. A rich spoiled sexually depraved brat would not have been held out as an example young teen girls should want to be like back then... our wealthy have become that depraved and unfortunately that decadently arrogant to actually parade their excesses into the homes of working people with superior values and her parents can't even understand the danger it puts their entire social caste in. It's was the perception of such decadance with Marie Antonette and her court that gave fuel to the french revolution when people starved in the streets.

This was all much larger a response than I originally intended Bill, but I felt that your comment opened up many interesting implications...

That is why ultimately I feel the key to breaking the hold of the priveledged in this country is not to let myself be made to fear christian evangelicals who have voted right in the past, even though I'm an agnostic and beleive in the seperation of church and state. I feel like phelps and the entire movement of extreme right evangelicals and some theocracy watch liberals on the other side might not realize it even but they are a party to a manipulation to keep good decent people moral people... humanists and christians... from ever working together to solve problems.

And the thrust of most of my internet activity, the goal of my writings here ultimately is to try in cyberspace to build bridges and dialogue. For instance to actually inspire a feminist or two outraged at TV and a christian activist mom outraged at the same offensive things to actually compartmentalize their differences over Roe V Wade for long enough to actually accomplish something together they both really want to fix. If I can keep just sowing seeds... and there are some victories, things can changed.

Because the great changes in this country that were for the better happened only when moral and sincere humanists and christians put aside their differences and worked together. That's how abolitionism worked, that's how women's sufferage happened, early labor movement, civil rights... it was only when the christians and the secularists both with good intentions parted company and began to fight that they everything they accomplished together began immediately if not slowly to erode to the point where we are today.

heee heee

you know, the reason why I can't hate you is because even though our opinions differ you do make me laugh, and I do really suspect you might be a liberal actually playing a Stephen Cobert type routine and that most people just haven't caught onto the joke and it's truly funny, but I'm still left unsure if that's true or not which leaves me always wondering what you are going to say next to see if it's a joke if if it's really real. That's kind of entertaining :)

crack kills, cliff.

why do we need more filters to exclude these people? and who determines who the trash and dross are?

perhaps the trash and dross is the upperclass.

<He means that only righties should be allowed to vote.>

I had a salesmanager like that. He was the nimrod who declared that the tech bubble would never burst.

<Don't ever forget, I grew up in that armed revolution neocon movement. I know what that game is all about from the inside out. >

Another thing we have in common. My father taught at the Treasury training school. His idea of education was how many ways you could kill somebody with your bare hands. The experience left me with a sick pit in my stomach for even thinking about violence.

Remember, it is always easier to destroy than it is to build.

So tell me, where are you planning to go after you graduate? I'll be upfront and tell you that if I were a young man full of piss and vinegar like you, I would be considering going to Venezuela and voluntering to help with the revolution.

"This thread is a waste of everyone's time. If this is a reality we need to be writing letters, not talking to Cliff."

Everyone calm down, he's kidding. Sick sense of humor? Yes. Is he being real? No.

beats me but im sure that there are plenty of people out there without them.

if you don't have a birth certificate, how are you supposed to get an id. im not keen on what other forms of identification are valid at the dmv.

Visions of SS troopers demanding, "Your papers please, I need to see your papers."

Next thing you know we'll need to get a weekly passport to cross the city limits border.

"I thought it was illegal to not have an ID."

Wrong. They would like you believe that, but it's not true. Technically, the law goes even further. You DO NOT even have to ID yourself to a police officer unless you have been witness to a crime; with the 5th amendment you DO NOT have to ID yourself if it will be self incriminating. You CAN NOT be charged with "failure to ID" just because you don't want to tell a fascist pig who you are. Well, you can and most likely will, but it is illegal and if you know the law the charges must be dropped. This IS the new nazi nation and being such, you are subject to persecution for any right you do not know about or are not willing to stand up for.