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the marine urination video

topic posted Thu, January 12, 2012 - 7:54 PM by  Gerbil
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Gerbil
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  • Re: the marine urination video

    Thu, January 12, 2012 - 8:38 PM
    not sure many Americans understand what happens in a war. Then again, if they did, they probably wouldn't see it as a means of "helping" a foreign nation

    So I guess I unfortunately agree with the right wing retard quoted in the tweet. If there's a story here it's that Americans are naive and stupid
    • Re: the marine urination video

      Thu, January 12, 2012 - 8:58 PM
      Yep!
      A Society and a Nation of Sheep
      Posted on 2010/09/17
      A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves. – Bertrand de Jouvenel (1903-1987)

      A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves. – Edward R. Murrow (1908-1965)

      While it is most likely de Jouvenel originated this saying, neither of them is wrong! Both variations basically mean the same thing. If the people who vote and/or the people we elect are “sheep” we will be taken over by “wolves” (I.E. totalitarian dictatorship, a government who rules its people instead of protecting its people, government for big business’ sake, government for government’s sake, & etc.)

      This is never so apparent as it is now. If you can’t see the real life application of this, in the US right now, YOU ARE A SHEEP!
    • Re: the marine urination video

      Thu, January 12, 2012 - 9:35 PM
      cares so much he tweets his displeasure...and then blames a liberal media.
      • Re: the marine urination video

        Thu, January 12, 2012 - 9:48 PM
        "If there's a story here it's that Americans are naive and stupid"

        The above comment, along with Will's remarks, are sad, but *all* too true. (side note: I thought the video was pathetic, and most nauseating in more ways than one.)
        • Re: the marine urination video

          Fri, January 13, 2012 - 2:38 AM
          so its the liberal media's fault that these soldiers are acting like sicko's,are we even sure that these dead bodies being pissed on are terrorists ? isnt the US armies usual policy to shoot first and ask questions later, there are hundreds being held in Guantanamo without trial.

          I think if the video does tell us something its not so much about people being naive who expect standards, id say it reflects the poor mental health of many soldiers involved in Iraq and Afghanistan, unless you think its normal behavior pissing on dead bodies.
          • Re: the marine urination video

            Fri, January 13, 2012 - 8:41 AM
            sadly, it also reflects the idiocy of soldiers dumb enough to videotape something like this in the age of the internet. there's no chance this wouldn't be posted to the internet in some form.
          • Re: the marine urination video

            Fri, January 13, 2012 - 9:20 AM
            "so its the liberal media's fault that these soldiers are acting like sicko's,are we even sure that these dead bodies being pissed on are terrorists ?"

            Or could it be you missed the point...


            " unless you think its normal behavior pissing on dead bodies. "

            or it could be naive expecting normal behavior from people in a war zone....

            • Re: the marine urination video

              Fri, January 13, 2012 - 2:18 PM
              <or it could be naive expecting normal behavior from people in a war zone.... >

              thats no bloody excuse, i expect stress but I dont expect people with mental health issues walking around with machine guns killing people. I cant imagine that many soldiers doing this kind of shit during WWII, when conditions for them were probably harder.

              it makes you wonder if this is the tip of an iceberg, how many people have these kind of soldiers just incorrectly shot and killed and laughed about afterwards, oh well just a dead Afghan. What we dont know is if this is just a rare incidence or is more common. Ive heard lots of reports of awful shit in Iraq and Afghanistan, just as there was supposed to be in the Vietnam war. The US army has a reputation for being loose around the seams and with attitudes like yours of acceptance to this thats not surprising.

              <Or could it be you missed the point... > No i got his point - if your Afghan and maybe possibly a terrorist you desrver to be executed and soliders can piss on your dead body for all he cares.

              I can imagine what he thinks about stopping torture at Guantanamo too - probably thinks its a pain in the arss because of the stupid bloody liberal media.
              • Re: the marine urination video

                Fri, January 13, 2012 - 2:27 PM
                "thats no bloody excuse"

                No one offered it as an excuse


                " I cant imagine that many soldiers doing this kind of shit during WWII"

                Ha, right. They just forced the cunts to disarm landmines with their face


                "if your Afghan and maybe possibly a terrorist you desrver to be executed and soliders can piss on your dead body for all he cares."

                without fail you inevitably post something stupid.
      • Re: the marine urination video

        Fri, January 13, 2012 - 12:09 PM
        << cares so much he tweets his displeasure...and then blames a liberal media. >>

        That's wingnuttery all over. Make a few feckless noises at atrocity then try to ritually mangle the guy who told them about it. Typical.

        << id say it reflects the poor mental health of many soldiers involved in Iraq and Afghanistan, unless you think its normal behavior pissing on dead bodies. >>

        It starts at home. You take the average Stateside couch-potato warmonger. This ballistics-shy patriot spends one hell of a lot of time imagining what he'd *like* to do to various enemies of America, assuming all restraints were off, his person well-protected and the whole thing consequence-free. So much of this shit winds up on the Internet that some of the more combat-addled troops in the field might well get the idea that public opinion back here will support anything they do, including vid of "Hey Dad! I'm pissing on the Taliban!"

        We see it here every time some deluded maniac actually *listens* to those voices on wingnut radio and grabs a gun to protect America from his fellow Americans.
  • Re: the marine urination video

    Fri, January 13, 2012 - 10:46 AM
    War can and does fuck with a marines head, but war zone or not, this is not acceptable behavior.
    • Re: the marine urination video

      Fri, January 13, 2012 - 10:58 AM
      being that these people are shot at daily, and are under constant threat of death, I doubt what you find "acceptable" is something they are really concerned with

      Hence, maybe Americans need to reevaluate their view of war as a form of foreign aid
      • Re: the marine urination video

        Fri, January 13, 2012 - 11:24 AM
        ah, the old "pity the poor soldier" defense. even so, that doesn't grant them carte blanche to do whatever they want without fear of condemnation.
        • Re: the marine urination video

          Fri, January 13, 2012 - 11:42 AM
          I'm not sure pointing out the absurd view some of you hold of war is a defense.
          • Re: the marine urination video

            Fri, January 13, 2012 - 12:16 PM
            i'm not claiming you are defending their actions, but i find it ridiculous to claim we can't criticize them for their actions because we may not know what it's like to be in a war zone.
            • Re: the marine urination video

              Fri, January 13, 2012 - 12:24 PM
              it's not about you not knowing the realities of war, it's a refusal to recognize them. You put people in a long term Guerrilla war they start dehumanizing their enemy and the population they blend in with. Hence, instead of being outraged when we find out "2+2=4", maybe we should put out military in such circumstances, short of an actual existential threat.
              • Re: the marine urination video

                Fri, January 13, 2012 - 12:48 PM
                <maybe we should put out military in such circumstances, short of an actual existential threat.>

                i'm assuming you meant "shouldn't". i agree wholeheartedly.

                <it's a refusal to recognize them.>

                how is my condemnation of their actions a refusal to recognize the realities of war? again, i'm not naive enough to think that this is the only time this has happened. it just happens that these soldiers were stupid enough to record it and then post it somewhere it would be easily disseminated. regardless, i think it's bottom of the barrel, whether or not you're in a war zone.
                • Re: the marine urination video

                  Fri, January 13, 2012 - 2:56 PM
                  "how is my condemnation of their actions a refusal to recognize the realities of war? "

                  It's like getting outraged that a guy left the door open, in the middle of winter, while he broke into someone's house and raped them
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: the marine urination video

                    Fri, January 13, 2012 - 3:22 PM
                    i can't condemn both?
                    • Re: the marine urination video

                      Fri, January 13, 2012 - 3:27 PM
                      "i can't condemn both?"

                      Sure you can. But if you were watching a national dialogue on how inconsiderate the rapist was concerning her gas bill, and the larger effects his actions had on global warming, while the issue of rape was being ignored, it would strike you as rather absurd, no?

                      Again, is it wrong? Yes, clearly. Is it what requires our national focus, in regards to our presence in Afghanistan? Absolutely not
                      • Re: the marine urination video

                        Fri, January 13, 2012 - 3:44 PM
                        i'm not sure i can really speak accurately to the psychological nature of an incident like this and the reaction to it but i'll give it a shot:

                        the war in afghanistan is 10, almost 11, years old. the outrage at the conditions and the results of that war has been going on since the beginning. after awhile, that outrage starts to wear thin and it doesn't really mean much, especially to the population whose military is occupying your country. all of a sudden, there's an incident that galvanizes all that anger and provokes some small measure of outrage from that occupying country's population. all of a sudden, there's new attention drawn to the conflict and that outrage that was wearing so thin and meant very little now has an outlet to breathe. it seems like it's easier to be angry at small things occasionally than it is to be angry at the overall picture, especially when that anger at the overall picture has been festering for so long.

                        plus, i don't think you can look at this as an isolated incident. it's just one layer upon many other layers of minor and major atrocities that have been committed by american soldiers in afghanistan.
                        • Re: the marine urination video

                          Fri, January 13, 2012 - 3:53 PM
                          let's also keep in mind that afghan reactions to these types of incidents far outweigh the american reaction.

                          from the new york times:
                          Hajji Ahmad Fareed, a former member of Parliament, said the images confirmed to him that America was against Islam. The Americans “will never be friends with us and never bring peace,” he said. Americans have urinated “on our holy Koran,” he said, and have now done so “on the bodies of our Muslims.”

                          Mr. Fareed was referring to an erroneous report in Newsweek in 2005 that American soldiers at the prison in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, had thrown a Koran into a toilet. The report prompted protests and riots in many parts of the Muslim world. The worst was in Afghanistan, where at least 17 people were killed.

                          Last year, protests erupted in Afghanistan over the burning of a Koran at a Florida church. Several people were killed, including seven United Nations staff members in Mazar-i-Sharif.

                          American officials in Afghanistan have also struggled to overcome the fallout from a rogue group of American soldiers who in 2010 killed three Afghan civilians for sport in a series of crimes. The soldier accused of being the ringleader of the group, whose members patrolled roads and small villages near Kandahar, was convicted of three counts of murder by an American military panel in November.
                          www.nytimes.com/2012/01/13...orpses.html
                          • Re: the marine urination video

                            Fri, January 13, 2012 - 4:33 PM
                            I think expecting different reaction from the Afghans, and Americans, is only expected. And the difference is that Americans could force an end to the conflict. In stead you have people like McCain getting outraged over this, while blatantly seeing our military as chief export
          • Re: the marine urination video

            Fri, January 13, 2012 - 2:25 PM
            <being that these people are shot at daily, and are under constant threat of death, I doubt what you find "acceptable" is something they are really concerned with

            Hence, maybe Americans need to reevaluate their view of war as a form of foreign aid>

            your attitude stinks, war is no excuse for this, I grew up in the 70s with loads of old timers who had fought in WWII when conditions were probably a lot fucking harder than what these guys are going through, probably a lot higher fatality rate too, and i bet most of them would be disgusted at this.

            There were lots of human rights abuses in Vietnam too, villages torched for no reason, people tortured and raped, not suprsing the US army is so fucked if a good proportion of your public is so accepting of no discipline in an army.

            War is tough which is why soldiers are supposed to have rock solid discipline. Discipline in the US army is supposed to be pretty shit. It wouldn't surprise me if some of them dead bodies were innocent even.
            • Re: the marine urination video

              Fri, January 13, 2012 - 2:29 PM
              "your attitude stinks, war is no excuse for this"

              No, but it inevitably happens in war.


              "There were lots of human rights abuses in Vietnam too, villages torched for no reason, people tortured and raped, not suprsing the US army is so fucked if a good proportion of your public is so accepting of no discipline in an army. "

              Hopefully you can distinguish between pissing on a dead body and raping someone. Though that's likely giving you too much credit
              • Re: the marine urination video

                Fri, January 13, 2012 - 2:38 PM
                <Hopefully you can distinguish between pissing on a dead body and raping someone. Though that's likely giving you too much credit>

                when an army has no discipline, as is often leveled at the US army, pissing on a dead body one day can easily be shooting someone incorrectly the next and not giving a damn about it, you really telling me you think there has been non of that too ? Are you going to say oh well what do you expect in war.

                Whats clear to me is people with attitudes like them men should not be walking around and holding guns. Then again, you have to consider what goes on in some of your cities already, maybe to some of you guys this IS normal behavior. Its not in Europe, civilization reached here.


                • Re: the marine urination video

                  Fri, January 13, 2012 - 3:20 PM
                  oh christ. get off your high horse, elo. "civilization reached here"? last i checked your fucking continent started two world wars.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    This post was deleted by Gerbil
                    • Re: the marine urination video

                      Tue, January 17, 2012 - 4:05 PM
                      <last i checked your fucking continent started two world wars.>

                      your completely right pre 1945, but Europe most of it learnt its lesson after two world wars and most of it abhors war now, Britain sometimes an exception to that.

                      Americas record on military violence from Central America, South America, South East Asia and more recently the Middle east in all them different places either covert military action or direct military action, is pretty abysmal when compared the last 40 years with most European countries.

                      thats not so much a matter of high horses more of recorded conflicts of the last 40 years.

                      the irony of course is that from 1900 - 1945 America had generally a better attitude to war than Europe, when the first world war was announced for example in Britain around 1914 there were widespread parties celebrating, how things switched after 1950s onward.

                      Before 1950 ? yeah your right, from 1900 - 1950 Europeans were behaving like barbarians, then most of them learnt there lesson and got civilized.

                      that's nothing to do with high horses but about the recorded histories of most continental European countries there is a dramatic shift from around 1950 to non violence for around 60 years in Europe.

                      Of course many Americans abhor violence and war, but a substantial portion almost cheer it on. You know that to be true, its sometimes true of the UK, but not that many are like that in Europe proper.


                      • Re: the marine urination video

                        Tue, January 17, 2012 - 4:10 PM
                        and of course with gun crime and homicide now also domestically its just statistics that's much higher in most American cities to most European cities -

                        www.equalitytrust.org.uk/image...ce.gif


                        is that about high horses or about harsh realities ? as Dustin sometimes likes to say to me don't blame the messenger.
                        • Re: the marine urination video

                          Tue, January 17, 2012 - 4:34 PM
                          "is that about high horses or about harsh realities ? as Dustin sometimes likes to say to me don't blame the messenger."

                          The problem is really had nothing to do with the discussion, beyond some attempt at a personal dig from you. And as usual, based off of nothing more than your usual buffoonish ignorance.



                          • This post was deleted by Gerbil
                            • Re: the marine urination video

                              Tue, January 17, 2012 - 4:53 PM
                              Not really crying Jeff (that's actually the forte of you and Elo), just pointing out that simple fact that it was nothing more than some personal dig from elo, based on nothing but his usual ignorance. But let's face it, you two have a habit of generating a bunch of fake outrage in these sort of circumstances (we saw it in the egypt and Libya threads, and numerous others). SO it hardly surprises me you would feel the need to be on the defensive here

                              So grow the fuck up
                              • This post was deleted by Gerbil
                          • Re: the marine urination video

                            Wed, January 18, 2012 - 1:44 AM
                            < really had nothing to do with the discussion, >

                            you mean when i present you with the facts that show in fact the US is brutal when it comes to war relative to other developed nations you just back off and waffle, of course the US record on conflict and violence over the last 40 years is relevant to this incident.

                            the fact is across that whole region the US are seen as war mongers. Whether thats entirely justified or not is a matter of debate but clearly that perception is very relevant to the discussion of how this pissing incident will be perceived and its impact.

                            The pissing on dead bodies brings up the issue of how the US military presence is perceived in that region, and clearly that perception is important to how well the hugely costly Afghan enterprise pans out.

                            My country the UK has a stake in that project too, so i have a direct concern in the behavior of my "partners" over there, not that the UKs military behavior has been exemplary either.

                            You say that in war these things are inevitable, what i would say is when a superpower resorts to military action so readily, either covert, proxy or direct, as the US has over the last 40 years to enforce its forgin policy aims, these kind of incidents become much more an inevitability.

                            On the flip side when was the last time we had a nation like Switzerland, Germany, Japan, Norway Sweden etc involved in this kind of incident ?

                            But i guess you feel the US is above criticism which is ironic considering you loves to go around calling other places shit holes.

                            My words about the US getting civilized are important, if the world is to move forward in this dangerous time its important the most powerful countries like America, Russia, Indian, China etc take up attidues like the Swedish, Japanese, Germans etc where justice and good conduct are seen as important, where they see war as a last resort and have high international standards about that. Not an aittude of might is right.

                            There are some signs with the Obama admin but its just a start.




                            • Re: the marine urination video

                              Wed, January 18, 2012 - 2:03 AM
                              "you mean when i present you with the facts that show in fact the US is brutal when it comes to war relative to other developed nations you just back off and waffle, of course the US record on conflict and violence over the last 40 years is relevant to this incident. "

                              you wrote: " Then again, you have to consider what goes on in some of your cities already, ***maybe to some of you guys*** this IS normal behavior. Its not in Europe, civilization reached here."

                              as is obvious from your post, you were offering commentary on the people here you * erroneously* assumed were trying to justify the act


                              "You say that in war these things are inevitable, what i would say is when a superpower resorts to military action so readily, either covert, proxy or direct, as the US has over the last 40 years to enforce its forgin policy aims, these kind of incidents become much more an inevitability. "

                              Elo, this was a point raised in my original post, and one that caused you to howl with outrage. So maybe next time you should make sure you actually understand what you are commenting on...


                              "But i guess you feel the US is above criticism which is ironic considering you loves to go around calling other places shit holes. "

                              No, infact, my original post in this very thread was a clear criticism of the US and their view of war. Ironic, to say the least, that you still haven't grasped this.


                              "where they see war as a last resort and have high international standards about that. Not an aittude of might is right. "

                              So you're saying that "maybe Americans need to reevaluate their view of war as a form of foreign aid"......

                              uspolitics.tribe.net/thread/...de48a9f9






                      • Re: the marine urination video

                        Tue, January 17, 2012 - 4:28 PM
                        "your completely right pre 1945, but Europe most of it learnt its lesson after two world wars and most of it abhors war now, Britain sometimes an exception to that. "

                        Except when they can directly benefit from it, say like Libya

                        or this:

                        "An independent Rwandan commission said France was aware of preparations for the genocide and helped train the ethnic Hutu militia perpetrators.
                        The report also accused French troops of direct involvement in the killings.
                        It named 33 senior French military and political figures that it said should be prosecuted. France has previously denied any such responsibility.
                        Among those named in the report were the late former President, Francois Mitterrand, and the then Prime Minister Edouard Balladur.
                        Two men who went on to become prime minister were also named - Alain Juppe, the foreign minister at the time, and his then chief aide, Dominique de Villepin.
                        The French foreign ministry told the BBC it would only respond to the fresh allegations after reading the report, which was released on Tuesday afternoon."

                        news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7542418.stm

                        Again, your constant condescension wouldn't be so insulting if it didn't come from a place of pure ignorance.
                        • Re: the marine urination video

                          Wed, January 18, 2012 - 2:23 AM
                          <Except when they can directly benefit from it, say like Libya >

                          or when 100's of thousands are about to be slaughtered in Benghazi that we try and save. The UN mandate was for a humanitarian intervention. There is little doubt that tens of thousands of lives were saved by that intervention, now just months later not a single European bullet is being fired there and the place is realativly stable.

                          Thats called a successful operation in anybody's books, very unlike Iraq for example.

                          You may remember on the other hand Iraq was refused a UN mandadate in-spite of lies presented to it about Weapons of Mass destruction, im sure the same was the case with Vietnam. There is a clear difference, the fact you cant see it is not surprising.

                          Where supposed to take Dustin's word it was all about oil as fact ? there's a strong chance preferential treatment will not be even given on oil contracts, in Iraq many of the contracts when to China and Russia not America.

                          With Rwanda, sure im not saying all Europe is perfect - that would be a stupid claim, and France have one of the most chequered records, but there is simply no comparison with the amount of Killing the US have done in the last 40 years either directly, covertly, or through proxies in South and Central America, South east Asia, or the middle east.

                          Shall we make a list with America on the one side and Europe on the other, do we even need to do that as its so bloody obvious. Just look at the money America spend on military, the same as all the other countries in the world combined.

                          As to Gerbils notion that before 1940 Americans were just killing each other as opposed to Europeans, that doessnt ring true either.

                          Ok there was the Civil war, but that was not normal. Aside from that America was not so war happy as Europe. From American Independence to around 1940 Europe was generating FAR more war.

                          The fact is its like Al Gore says America was tarnished by its involvement in the second world war and never really recovered from that, and as the industrial military complex in America grew in power it changed your politics forever, that and the cold war of course.

                          America was a different kind of nation from Independence up till Eisenhower. After Eisenhower its egalitarian roots had virtually been killed and its new military muscle and superpower status corrupted its Foreign policy increasingly.

                          If im harsh on America its because i feel its constructive criticism, i want America to drop the shit of the last 60 years and return to its more idealistic roots.

                          With unstable nature of the world over the next 30 years thats going to be crucial.

                          And again Gerbil its not about "seeing god" or becoming a saint but as for example many Norwegians, Swedes or Japanese do in there society, realizing the horrors or war and the deep value of peace.

                          I saw an interesting political debate in Japan a few years ago. It was about the growing possible threat of China. When someone said should Japan turn nuclear one senior Japanese minister in the debate said if that ever happened in his lifetime he would not only resign immediately from government he would also immediately renounce his Japanese citizenship.

                          He said Japan more than anybody should understand the horrors of war and especially nuclear war.

                          See how history can have such profoundly different affects on nations, look at how American attitudes to war have changed since 1940 and how Japanese attitudes have changed in that same time.
                          • Re: the marine urination video

                            Wed, January 18, 2012 - 2:38 AM
                            "or when 100's of thousands are about to be slaughtered in Benghazi that we try and save. The UN mandate was for a humanitarian intervention. "

                            to call your view of a mandated no fly zone,with the explicit intent to "protect civilians" expansive would be a vast understatement


                            "There is little doubt that tens of thousands of lives were saved by that intervention, now just months later not a single European bullet is being fired there and the place is realativly stable."

                            1) Actually it obvious extended the conflict, and likely cost more (unless you are under the erroneous impression that the resistance would have amounted to much without NATO support)

                            2) and no, it isn't stable <<<GHARYAN, Libya — Rival Libyan fighters who clashed in towns south of Tripoli have settled their deadly dispute through a prisoner swap and agreed to a ceasefire, local officials said on Monday.
                            "Last night (Sunday) we carried out a prisoner swap... since then, the fighting has stopped," Colonel Ahmed Omar Ibrahim al-Fakhi of the Gharyan military council told AFP.
                            "We had captured around 24 fighters from Assaba. They had captured four of our men. We exchanged the prisoners in Gharyan," he added.
                            Doctor Ibrahim al-Karim, deputy head of central Gharyan hospital, said four people were killed and more than 50 wounded in the clashes which erupted on Friday.>>>

                            www.google.com/hostednews...IVDgQQ9xcWg



                            "You may remember on the other hand Iraq was refused a UN mandadate in-spite of lies presented to it about Weapons of Mass destruction, im sure the same was the case with Vietnam. There is a clear difference, the fact you cant see it is not surprising. "

                            I'm not sure how one war being driven by oil interests is any different than another. Also, I am unsure how Qaddafi being university unpopular legitimizes such an operation


                            "With Rwanda, sure im not saying all Europe is perfect - that would be a stupid claim, and France have one of the most chequered records, but there is simply no comparison with the amount of Killing the US have done in the last 40 years either directly, covertly, or through proxies in South and Central America, South east Asia, or the middle east. "

                            actually you implied that Europe didn't have a dirty military record like the US. Clearly they do


                            "If im harsh on America its because i feel its constructive criticism, i want America to drop the shit of the last 60 years and return to its more idealistic roots. "

                            To anyone capable of comprehending my original post it's clear I don't see American foreign policy, or how Americans view war, above criticism (in fact, I have been rather critical of both here). But my guess is you had a personal agenda here

                            Also, as I remind you every time you try to shift the topic with american bashing, I'm not a nationalist
                            • Re: the marine urination video

                              Wed, January 18, 2012 - 1:24 PM
                              <actually you implied that Europe didn't have a dirty military record like the US. Clearly they do >

                              its all relative, which is my point - the relative attitudes to violence, there may be a bit dirt here and there but its NOT like the huge amount of conflicts the US have supported the last 40 years with Americas HUGE focus on military as a solution, as i said do we really need to make out a list and compare it ?

                              <To anyone capable of comprehending my original post it's clear I don't see American foreign policy, or how Americans view war, above criticism (in fact, I have been rather critical of both here). But my guess is you had a personal agenda here >

                              no what you mean is that you can criticize America but if I do it you cant stand it, and the reason you cant stand it when I criticize America is because you have a personal agenda here.

                              <as I remind you every time you try to shift the topic with american bashing, >

                              case in point, as i say, if you criticize America its criticism, if I criticize America its American bashing.

                              <I am unsure how Qaddafi being university unpopular legitimizes such an operation >

                              oh but when he is universally unpopular with the people he is supposed to be leading, its makes all the difference. You say the Libyan conflict was all about oil but the thousands of Libyans who actually fought in that war would disagree with you passionately about that. It was there war - not the wests war, or Americas war as Iraq was. The fact that you cant see a difference between Iraq and Libya is very telling. Ten years after Iraq and its still a big mess.

                              Mind you as much as I supported the Libyan humanitarian intervention mandated by the UN you should take note of the fact that many European countries were deeply against it. Virtually non of them supported Iraq of course.

                              If you were honest for just ten seconds youd admit there is a very different attitude in the US to war to most of Europe. Oh but then thats what you just said in another post now isnt it, that American attitude to war is all wrong - I forget that what you mean is you dont like it when i say that.








                              • Re: the marine urination video

                                Wed, January 18, 2012 - 1:52 PM
                                "no what you mean is that you can criticize America but if I do it you cant stand it, and the reason you cant stand it when I criticize America is because you have a personal agenda here. "

                                Elo, your criticism wasn't about the US, it was an attempt to comment on posters here, that you erroneously thought disagreed with you. Hence it's american bashing because your attempting to attack Americans with it, not offer commentary on the discussion


                                "its all relative, which is my point - the relative attitudes to violence, there may be a bit dirt here and there but its NOT like the huge amount of conflicts the US have supported the last 40 years with Americas HUGE focus on military as a solution, as i said do we really need to make out a list and compare it ? "

                                Lol, you mean like I, and others, pointed out in the beginning of this thread and that caused you to go into hysterics?


                                "oh but when he is universally unpopular with the people he is supposed to be leading, its makes all the difference"

                                If these people populated the UN you would have a point, but my response was clearly in reference to you citing UN approval for the operation, not the Libyan people taking up arms against their govt



                                "Mind you as much as I supported the Libyan humanitarian intervention mandated by the UN you should take note of the fact that many European countries were deeply against it. Virtually non of them supported Iraq of course. "

                                You seem to have issue staying coherent here: I never claimed all of Europe supported it. In fact, the person who brought the entirety of europe into the discussion was you. I am just showing how your claims about Europe are obviously wrong. Though the countries that did support it had a lot to gain from regime change, especially when they came out in favor of the rebels, while Qaddafi was regrouping


                                "If you were honest for just ten seconds youd admit there is a very different attitude in the US to war to most of Europe"

                                that's not what you originally stated though. You made europe sound as if it had a clean record post ww2, when it clearly does not.

                                • Re: the marine urination video

                                  Wed, January 18, 2012 - 2:03 PM
                                  <Elo, your criticism wasn't about the US, it was an attempt to comment on posters here, that you erroneously thought disagreed with you. Hence it's american bashing because your attempting to attack Americans with it, not offer commentary on the discussion>

                                  I do find your nonchalance to this pissing on dead bodies and your justifications on the other thread of Israelis using there army to steal resources for "security" a reflection of some US foreign policies of the last 40 years.

                                  <caused you to go into hysterics? >

                                  oh whatever Dustin, me criticizing your position is me going into hysterics, and me criticizing America is me American bashing. Strikes me its you who is taking this personally not me.





                                  • Re: the marine urination video

                                    Wed, January 18, 2012 - 2:15 PM
                                    "I do find your nonchalance to this pissing on dead bodies and your justifications on the other thread of Israelis using there army to steal resources for "security" a reflection of some US foreign policies of the last 40 years. "

                                    lol, how many times does someone need to explain the same thing to you before you can actually grasp it?

                                    Again, for the 12th and 8th time respectfully

                                    1) I did not try to justify anything. You claimed that Israel policy in the OT had no basis on security, so I explained how it actually had a basis in security. That's a positive argument, not a normative one. Hence, there is no justification there, just me pointing to facts and going you're wrong

                                    2) My dismissal of the piss incident was always in the context of wider issues in Afghanistan. In circumstances where people are constantly dying, having their homes destroyed, and getting maimed, yes, some guy pissing on a dead body isn't a very big deal. And given their reaction to the incident, it seems the afghan people even agree

                                    3) it was obviously meant to attack the character of the people you *thought* you disagreed with: " Then again, you have to consider what goes on in some of your cities already, ***maybe to some of you guys*** this IS normal behavior. Its not in Europe, civilization reached here."

                                    clearly the above is a personal dig.
                              • Re: the marine urination video

                                Wed, January 18, 2012 - 3:14 PM
                                ---------its all relative, which is my point - the relative attitudes to violence, there may be a bit dirt here and there but its NOT like the huge amount of conflicts the US have supported the last 40 years with Americas HUGE focus on military as a solution, as i said do we really need to make out a list and compare it ?

                                hahaha. you know what you just did elo? hahaha. you made an argument why the muslims around israel are worse. dont you get that? if you are saying that between europe and america one is worse because one did something more then dont you think that you can take this same issue around the middle east and show how the muslism are killing eachother so much more so doesnt that meant hat theyare worse? hahaha. compare it? should we compare how many palestinians the israelis killed compared to how many the syrians have killed? how many died in egypt? what about the rest of the middle east. pakistan? ask our resident experet on pakistan and see how many have died there or what about iraq? i dont think that you really can understand the ramifications of what yousay! hahaha by your own comment above you think that the israelis are not as bad when you compare it.
                                • This post was deleted by Gerbil
                          • Re: the marine urination video

                            Wed, January 18, 2012 - 9:24 AM
                            <As to Gerbils notion that before 1940 Americans were just killing each other as opposed to Europeans, that doessnt ring true either.>

                            it's hard not to scoff at your arrogance towards me not knowing history when it seems you don't know history yourself, elo. americans have been war-happy, just not necessarily on your side of the pond:

                            americanhistory.about.com/libra...rs.htm
                            en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...ted_States (blacked out until tomorrow)
                            www.cassiopaea.org/cass/uswars.htm

                            i mean, this fact can be found on hundreds of websites, as well as plenty of history books. the idea that the united states was a peaceful nation prior to WW1 is ludicrous. i mean, the native american genocide doesn't ring a bell?

                            <When someone said should Japan turn nuclear one senior Japanese minister in the debate said if that ever happened in his lifetime he would not only resign immediately from government he would also immediately renounce his Japanese citizenship.>

                            while it's a terrific stand for your principles, it just means that it's more likely someone who supports japan turning nuclear will be taking his place in government. not sure how that furthers the cause for nuclear disarmament. instead of using the bully pulpit he's provided, he weakens his voice and turns into another of 7 billion citizens on earth. then who is he?
                            • Re: the marine urination video

                              Wed, January 18, 2012 - 2:26 PM
                              Gerbil sure there have been lots of small conflicts in America (though the civil war was obviously big) but i just dont see the same INTENSITY of conflicts going on in America in the 1800s - 1940 as occurred in Europe.

                              With the Japan thing i dont think your getting what i meant, the depth of his feeling and his deep abhorrence to war were so obviously sincere and so deep it shocked me, i cant imagine ANY poltican from America or the UK reacting in such an emotional way that he was disgusted at the idea of war.

                              The point im trying to make is he like many Japanese and many continental Europeans have a different attitude to war.


                              • Re: the marine urination video

                                Wed, January 18, 2012 - 2:47 PM
                                <but i just don't see the same INTENSITY of conflicts going on in America in the 1800s-1940 as occurred in Europe>

                                i don't really think that's relevant. your argument was that america was a bunch of peaceniks up until WW1 and i clearly demonstrated that claim to be false. if you want to talk quantity, then, sure, i'm betting europe has the united states beat.

                                <i cant imagine ANY poltican from America or the UK reacting in such an emotional way that he was disgusted at the idea of war.>

                                in the modern era, i would definitely agree. i was actually thinking about this today on my way home from work. there's no possible way that a pacifist ever gets elected to the presidency in the united states. i don't think it necessarily has to do with the fact that americans are somewhat war-hungry, but that they would never elect someone who wouldn't go to war if the defense of the country was on the line. i also think you'd be hard pressed to find a senator get elected as a pacifist. it'd be much simpler to be a member of the house.

                                still, why resign your position in government when you could use that bully pulpit, however weak or strong it was, to argue your case. throwing your hands in the air and resigning doesn't seem like a very useful strategy.
                      • Re: the marine urination video

                        Tue, January 17, 2012 - 5:09 PM
                        while i'm not exactly the biggest fan of war, it has been a consistent facet of civilization since the dawn of time. i'm not sure why civilization would suddenly reach your continent after europeans found god.

                        but, like dustin pointed out, there are plenty of examples of europeans joining the united states in the violence you condemn or going it alone. (see iraq, afghanistan, libya....)

                        <the irony of course is that from 1900 - 1945 America had generally a better attitude to war>

                        i agree. from the founding until about wilson, maybe you could start at teddy roosevelt, we remained relatively isolated from foreign affairs. we just happened to kill each other(native americans, civil war, etc.) instead of you suckers on the other side of the atlantic and pacific up until then.
                        • Re: the marine urination video

                          Wed, January 18, 2012 - 1:48 AM
                          <. i'm not sure why civilization would suddenly reach your continent after europeans found god. >

                          found god, what are you even talking about ? If your unaware of the HUGE effect world war I and II had on Europe's attitude to war then you dont know much off history.

                          Germany were even prevented from having an army.
                          • Re: the marine urination video

                            Wed, January 18, 2012 - 8:50 AM
                            you are saying that from the beginning of civilization until about 1945, europeans were barbarians and had a less than stellar view towards war, then they all of a sudden found god. are you unfamiliar with the phrase "find god"? if so, it basically means that someone has been acting less than virtuous, then all of a sudden acts extremely virtuous as if through a divine intervention.

                            this is the closest thing i could find that used the phrase in the way i intended it:
                            www.typologycentral.com/forums...ead.php
                            For a politician to admit that, as a youth, s/he [experimented with drugs] [protested a war] [tried same-gender sex] [you name it] is career suicide. Unless, of course, that person found God and was cleansed of all youthful indiscretions.

                            thanks for ignoring the rest of my post, though, elo. kudos to you.

                            <Germany were even prevented from having an army.>

                            so was japan. that's what happens when you kill millions of people and start a world war.
                            • Re: the marine urination video

                              Wed, January 18, 2012 - 1:52 PM
                              < it basically means that someone has been acting less than virtuous, then all of a sudden acts extremely virtuous as if through a divine intervention. >

                              Yeh like exactly what i said, though it wasnt through divine intervention just down to something as obvious as a reaction to two world wars.


                              <Germany were even prevented from having an army.>

                              so was japan. that's what happens when you kill millions of people and start a world war.

                              yeh exactly, and then attitudes change too, especially if many of them nations have to be rebuilt in the wake of that war. Im sure it focuses the mind tremendously if your country is more than half destroyed and you have to rebuild it over decades.

                              You know you seem like you cant make up your mind as to whether to agree or disagree with me.

                              I think the problem with America is that it was very isolated and then all of a sudden it was the most powerful nation in the world by a long way shoved suddenly onto the global stage. Then the Industrial Military complex got into a position in the 50s where it realized it could seize a lot of power by getting involved in politics. Then of course the cold war brought out the worst in America in them days. Then of course yoru right wing realized it was good to use as a tool sometimes to empower itself in the wake of the Russian "threat", and in more recent decades some of the monied media colluded with that.

                              All that put together means America missed out on the "civilizing" effects of modernity can and the wake of two world wars had on attitudes to war that Europe went through over the last 60 years. I dont think it was ALL about the world wars with Europe, a large part of the shift was and that was the start of the change but then it was carried along further by modernity and education.

                              However we go into it the fact is from the 30's to the 60s there was a dramatic swing TOWARDS war in America when in that same time in most of Europe there was a dramtic swing AWAY from it.

                              Im not saying things are perfect in Europe like this far from it, and the UK can have its flag waving movements, but overall there is a VERY negative attitude to war in most of Europe.

                              Iraq is probably the start of it in America coupled with dwindling economic supremacy. My point is though its VITAL for the world that moves forward. Lets not forget Obamas more reasonable attitude on some of these things could only be tempory, the Repblicans coudl get back in.

                              I dont think war has to be a natural thing as Jeff says below with the Chimpanzee analogy. Yes we are LIKE animals with similar strong basic instincts , but we have a huge difference - we are consciously evolving all the time, the way we think changes. So do our collective rules about what is good behavior for societies.

                              Statistics show that humans killing humans has been on a steady decline for thousands of years. Compared to 100 years ago wars now are relativilly extinct.

                              Im not surprised some of you are put out by my blunt comparison of America to Europe (Dustin might wonder where i picked up such bluntness from) but the fact is i believe America can change ENORMOUSLY on this issue over the next twenty years - AND probably will.

                              Again in the Victorian era i think America was a lot more progressive on many issues to Europe. Something when badly wrong in America from FDRs death to the 1950s and it swung the wrong way.

                              There is every chance that could be fixed over the next few decades.
                              • Re: the marine urination video

                                Wed, January 18, 2012 - 1:54 PM
                                <<the irony of course is that from 1900 - 1945 America had generally a better attitude to war>

                                i agree.>

                                sorry i did miss that. If my attitude in here has been a bit aggressive its because im used to debating with Dustin now who seems to think debate is another form of street fighting.

                              • Re: the marine urination video

                                Wed, January 18, 2012 - 3:28 PM
                                <You know you seem like you cant make up your mind as to whether to agree or disagree with me.>

                                agree with you on what? the point i'm making is that civilization has existed for hundreds of thousands of years with war as an important component to it. so your claim that civilization all of a sudden came to europe and that suddenly america was no longer civilized struck me as an inaccurate statement.

                                <I think the problem with America is that it was very isolated and then all of a sudden it was the most powerful nation in the world by a long way shoved suddenly onto the global stage.>

                                actually, i think it was an advantage that the united states was so isolated, especially geographically. it, fortunately, allowed for the united states to not get decimated by the two world wars. the costs of rebuilding were marginally less than in europe. unfortunately, this also allowed for a military build-up and the setting of terms regarding rebuilding most of europe and japan.

                                <"civilizing" effects of modernity>

                                please define.

                                <So do our collective rules about what is good behavior for societies.>

                                you're joking right? we have RULES for war that are enshrined into international law. if that's not an invitation to wage war, i don't know what it is. war is a naturally occurring event in society. it's a basic truth that someone is going to want your property, your treasure, your land, or your whatever and violence is one, hopefully last resort, way to take it.
                                • Re: the marine urination video

                                  Thu, January 19, 2012 - 12:45 PM
                                  <"civilizing" effects of modernity>

                                  please define. >

                                  well there is the work of Steven Pinker who has collected evidence historically to show that there has been a sure trend for thousands of years that shows human beings have been steadily and slowly getting less violent -

                                  <"But, now that social scientists have started to count bodies in different historical periods, they have discovered that the romantic theory gets it backward: Far from causing us to become more violent, something in modernity and its cultural institutions has made us nobler.">

                                  <In the decade of Darfur and Iraq, that statement might seem hallucinatory or even obscene. But if we consider the evidence, we find that the decline of violence is a fractal phenomenon: We can see the decline over millennia, centuries, decades, and years. When the archeologist Lawrence Keeley examined casualty rates among contemporary hunter-gatherers—which is the best picture we have of how people might have lived 10,000 years ago—he discovered that the likelihood that a man would die at the hands of another man ranged from a high of 60 percent in one tribe to 15 percent at the most peaceable end. In contrast, the chance that a European or American man would be killed by another man was less than one percent during the 20th century, a period of time that includes both world wars. If the death rate of tribal warfare had prevailed in the 20th century, there would have been two billion deaths rather than 100 million, horrible as that is.

                                  greatergood.berkeley.edu/artic...peace/

                                  >

                                  Then also what i mean is as societies get more developed, as education gets better, and people learn the value of being civilized, we change our attitude to war.

                                  This is something that is collectively learnt - not something that comes naturally. As i said in 1914 apparently most of the country was overjoyed they were going to war with Germany, parties everywhere - they were going to show them who was boss the British.

                                  You hear in history how many ancient societies like the Spartans and Egyptians laid great emphasis on the nobility of a warrior and war, the glory of killing and the honour of victory, war was one of the highest things a man could do. Many do not hold these values now.

                                  I think as we have developed our thinking and sophisticated thought - right from primary kids doing the most basic stuff as school to the thought of intellectuals developing through time, and through experience of civilization over time, then some of these values have changed.

                                  We understand there is a darker side to war. We can see the horrors of it more clearly. We see that often both sides lose in that there often death on both sides. We have more learned the value of empathy and compassion as a society.

                                  And since things like World war I and WII we realize war can really unstabilize the world and cause suffering. This did not come to us naturally. Its been a long hard learning curve and of course its still going on.

                                  You can also see this learning in young children. I have two young boys and i know kids or born with a natural tendency to fight, as you and Jeff say its natural to want to take other things, take your bothers toys, him hit you for doing that, you hit him back .

                                  But this behavior can be unlearned and replaced by other learning's that say this behavior is negative and counterproductive.

                                  As parents we teach our children thats not good because fighting all the time can be negative.

                                  What i am saying is as our collective learning evolved as society this same "lesson" we teach our kids about fighting is spreading to our awareness about fighting as adults and about war.

                                  Modernity helps that even more by making us used to comfort because things are kind of nice in a nice world. A child that grows up in a comfortable middle class environment for example in Sweden with very little crime, caring parents, a happy life, is very unlikely to become a very violent person and will more likely be horrified by extreme violence. Thats because he is not used to the negativity of violence.

                                  I grew up in a Northern village with both posh kids and some VERY rough kids. The rough kids were MUCH more violent, not because there were not nice people compared to the posh kids, but because they were used to it. Other kids hit them, there parents tended to beat them for being naughty rather than punish them in other ways. So to them they had never learned that violence was bad - to them it was normal.

                                  That can work on a collective level as much as individual. And as societies get more developed with technology - more materially comfortable the more comfort we expect and the more horrified we are at brutality.

                                  And this works through all aspects of society from laws - people 1000 years ago used to get there hands choped off for stealing an apple - to learning, to institutions.

                                  For example if you had suggested an institution like the UN to some king around 1300 in Europe they would have probably thought you totaly insane. An institution that was supposed to stop wars between nations and help all of them. He would have thought it very strange. Each country should put himself first.

                                  Now it seems less odd but we know the UN doesn't work properly. Thats because its ahead of its time.

                                  If Pinkerton s statistics are right we could expect in a 100 years for the world to be such a place that the UN can function as it was intended because we would have evolved our thinking as a society even further.

                                  The last factor i think is also an awareness that technology has made violence and war even more destructive than it used to be, gunes, bombs, atom bombs etc, so this reinforces some of the above factors.

                                  When i try to make the point that Europeans are a bit ahead of Americans on this lesson its not because im saying there some kind of superior people, just history AT THIS TIME, has made it go that way.

                                  If you compare Swedes for example to Iranians around 1100 the average viking was much less civilized at that time to the average Iranian, now its not like that.

                                  I really do expect America to come out of this glory war phase over the next 20 - 30 years partly because it loses its superpower status but also many other factors too - it will become a more mature country, its a realativly new country right now. In saying that of course i recognize that many Americans - a huge amount - do not have this war is glorious attitude already, yourself included. And i could easily find you some Europeans who are completely insensitive to war.
                        • Re: the marine urination video

                          Wed, January 18, 2012 - 11:55 AM
                          <<while i'm not exactly the biggest fan of war, it has been a consistent facet of civilization since the dawn of time

                          War even exists within the world of our closest relative the chimp.
                      • Re: the marine urination video

                        Thu, January 19, 2012 - 7:55 AM
                        << your completely right pre 1945, but Europe most of it learnt its lesson after two world wars and most of it abhors war now >>

                        That and young European men with a taste for war can always join the Blue Helmet squad at the UN.

                        << Britain sometimes an exception to that. >>

                        Sorry if this offends any Brits out there, but, outside of a few bombs dropping on London, the worst most of homeland Britain had to face in WW II was its own idiotic political and military leadership. Pretty much *any* contemporary account of the era will demonstrate this.

                        Londonders like to make a great deal out of their WW II experience, but alongside the long thorough hideous mauling a lot of America took during the Civil War, the Blitz looks rather more like Burning Man than a war. There's simply no comparison to what Poles , French and Russians had to put up with out of that paper-hanging son-of-a-bitch.

                        The willingness to send troops overseas likely runs in inverse proportion to the horrors of war directly experienced at home.
                        • Re: the marine urination video

                          Thu, January 19, 2012 - 9:04 AM
                          "The willingness to send troops overseas likely runs in inverse proportion to the horrors of war directly experienced at home."

                          I would say that is definitely the case. hell, to most Americans, war probably seems like just another show on the telly
                          • Re: the marine urination video

                            Thu, January 19, 2012 - 9:29 AM
                            when the media serves it to you in such awful bits and pieces, it's hard not to have a jaded and somewhat distorted view of the real way war affects people.
                            • Re: the marine urination video

                              Thu, January 19, 2012 - 1:14 PM
                              <when the media serves it to you in such awful bits and pieces, it's hard not to have a jaded and somewhat distorted view of the real way war affects people.>

                              I agree the media plays a very big role in this, which is why i think part of the solution is the media, if you got a mass media outlet effectively saying and presenting the opposite - and the nobility and glory of peace.
                              • Re: the marine urination video

                                Thu, January 19, 2012 - 4:01 PM
                                unfortunately, peace doesn't pay the bills.

                                wagingnonviolence.org/2011/05...acifist/
                                • Re: the marine urination video

                                  Mon, January 23, 2012 - 5:33 AM
                                  i agree war is manipulated in an economic way for elites especially in the US.

                                  however i dont agree with a lot of that article, when he says -

                                  <“In fact,” he writes,

                                  the more I learn about the war, the more I understand that the pacifists were the only ones, during a time of catastrophic violence, who repeatedly put forward proposals that had any chance of saving a threatened people. They weren’t naïve, they weren’t unrealistic—they were psychologically acute realists.?

                                  the Idea that pacifism was going to save the world from Hitler and Japan back then is naive and stupid in the extreme, it was earnestly tried by Neville Chamberline and his "peace in our time" speech has went down as one of the most ridiculed political moves in our history.

                                  No, what the issue is to me is that war is used by countries in a way that is not GENUINELY defensive but instead as a foreign policy tool.
                        • Re: the marine urination video

                          Thu, January 19, 2012 - 1:07 PM
                          < the Blitz looks rather more like Burning Man than a war. >

                          <By the war's end, just under 30,000 Londoners had been killed by the bombing, and over 50,000 seriously injured,[5] >

                          i found one quote on wiki saying 10s of thousand of homes were destroyed another aproximatly a million, its probably something in the middle.

                          Considering thats about ten times the amount killed in 9/11 and New York and Americas reaction to 9/11 this last ten years, I find that an extremely bizarre statement !

                          What would Americans think if i said 9/11 looked pretty insignificant and tame compared to burning man ? Bizarre thing to say.

                          Not that it means much to me, way before my time and if anybody suffered greatly in WWII it was the Russians and the Jews.

                          What would Americans think if i said 9/11 looked pretty insignificant and tame compared to burning man ? Bizarre thing to say.

                          Not that it means much to me, way before my time and if anybody suffered greatly in WWII it was the Russians and the Jews.
                          • Re: the marine urination video

                            Thu, January 19, 2012 - 2:20 PM
                            "Considering thats about ten times the amount killed in 9/11 and New York and Americas reaction to 9/11 this last ten years, I find that an extremely bizarre statement ! "

                            Rock Star Wrote: "Londonders like to make a great deal out of their WW II experience, ***but alongside the long thorough hideous mauling a lot of America took during the Civil War***, the Blitz looks rather more like Burning Man than a war."

                            <<<At least 618,000 Americans died in the Civil War, and some experts say the toll reached 700,000. The number that is most often quoted is 620,000. At any rate, these casualties exceed the nation's loss in all its other wars, from the Revolution through Vietnam. >>>

                            <<<On November 15, in perhaps the boldest act of the war, he led an army of sixty-two thousand men in two wings, with thirty-five thousand horses and twenty-five hundred wagons, on an overland march to Savannah--cutting himself off from his line of supply and sustaining his army on the land. "The utter destruction of [Georgia's] roads, houses and people," he had written, "will cripple their military resources... I can make Georgia howl!" Encountering little organized opposition, Sherman took Savannah on December 21, 1864, and later turned north for the Carolinas, covering 450 miles in fifty days.

                            The results of this remarkable march justified Sherman's strategic expectations and, together with Grant's victories in Virginia, destroyed the Confederacy's ability to carry on the war. It is still disputed, however, whether the burning of Atlanta, the later burning of Columbia, South Carolina, and the depredations of "Sherman's bummers" were either necessary or unpreventable.>>>

                            Clearly if you ignore the fact that he was drawing a comparison to the civil war, and not 9/11, the comparison can seem weak. But it's rather obvious that the comparison concerned the civil war and the bombing of london.

                            Why you can't manage to just read what someone writes is beyond me, but having to spoon feed everything to you is rather annoying


                            "What would Americans think if i said 9/11 looked pretty insignificant and tame compared to burning man ? Bizarre thing to say. "

                            Yes it is
                            • This post was deleted by Gerbil
                              • Re: the marine urination video

                                Mon, January 23, 2012 - 8:05 AM
                                "lol, are you for real ? Are you so deeply stupid that you compare casualties of an entire nation in an entire war to that of just one city ? There were close to a million died in WWII. You might actually try using your brain before you post. "

                                1) I was addressing your misreading of a rather explicit statement. So I would probably hold back on calling anyone stupid...

                                2) The issue raised, *by you*, was conflict on the home soul. Rockstar addressed this by pointing to the disparity between what the English experienced in ww2 and what the Americans experienced during the Civil War; which I reinforced by citing casualty reports and one of the more infamous campaigns from it. So bringing in the casualties from the rest of ww2 makes little sense and has absolutely nothing to do with his original point


                                "trust you guys to get into a competition over this though, tacky to say the least."


                                Oddly, rereading the thread, the only one doing boosting for the motherland seems to be you. With the various responses from "you guys" being people correcting your various faulty assumptions and claims...

                                • Re: the marine urination video

                                  Mon, January 23, 2012 - 3:57 AM
                                  <2) The issue raised, *by you*, was conflict on the home soul.>

                                  where did i say conflict on home soil ? fact is most of the men including mobilized civilians in the UK were over on the continent fighting Germans and geting killed, they were British people so the second world war effected Britain a deeply. In addition Britain did get bombed quite heavily in comparison to America.

                                  <the only one doing boosting for the motherland seems to be you.>

                                  thats strange because ive said a few times that Britain does not have as good attitudes on War as the Germans, Japanese and many other countries like Sweden, Norway, Netherland etc etc in post world war Europe and the world. I made it clear several times that the countries that really deserve praise on this is not my own but them.

                                  However as anybody honest would admit America since the 50s have a huge propensity to support war either direct, covert and through proxies in comparison to even Britain or France.

                                  Your just about saying that yourself but when i say it stamping your feet in a huff that im insulting your homeland. What did you say above, to Americans watching war is just like watching a movie or something.

                                  • Re: the marine urination video

                                    Mon, January 23, 2012 - 4:04 AM
                                    and a correction to above it was around half a million British dead not 1 million, but considering the population of the country then was only 47 million thats pretty high in anybodys books.

                                    Also i dont have a problem with the idea that countries like Germany and Japan are even more deeply hostile to the idea of war than Britian because there was more direct destruction there. Again they were teh countries i was holding up as an example less Britain. What i was saying is that even Britian does not have the same kind of focus on having an effective and active killing machine post WWII as America does, and that is clearly the case.

                                    America has an even worse attitude than the Chinese to war, you can see that simply by the military spend. Maybe Russia can rival America to some extent, and Iran and Israel in there propensity to flex there military muscle.

                                    Criticizing America in this regard is an important political point so don't take it too much to heart.

        • Re: the marine urination video

          Fri, January 13, 2012 - 11:54 AM
          <<ah, the old "pity the poor soldier" defense. even so, that doesn't grant them carte blanche to do whatever they want without fear of condemnation.

          Indeed, having served in the military during the first Gulf War, I am quite aware of the strict standards, rules of conduct, and the fact that every single member of the armed forces is subject to the Uniform Military Code of Justice, not to mention that they are expected to uphold the standards as defined in the Geneva Convention. If proven, these actions were criminal and I hope they are prosecuted to the full extent of the UCMJ. The Secretary of Defense agrees with me.

          WASHINGTON -- Defense Secretary Leon Panetta said he called for an investigation into a video that appears to show Marines urinating on Taliban corpses.

          In a separate public statement, Panetta said such behavior is "entirely inappropriate for members of the United States military" and that those responsible will be held accountable.

          At the same time the Marine Corps' top general has condemned the video and called for criminal and internal probes into what has quickly mushroomed into an international incident that threatens to undermine the U.S war effort.

          "The behavior depicted in the video is wholly inconsistent with the high standards of conduct and warrior ethos that we have demonstrated throughout our history," Gen. Jim Amos, the Marine Corps commandant, said in a statement issued Thursday morning. "Accordingly, late yesterday I requested that the Naval Criminal Investigative Service pull together a team of their very best agents and immediately assign them responsibility to thoroughly investigate every aspect of the filmed event."

          The video, posted on the Internet, shows men in Marine combat gear standing in a semicircle over three bodies. It's not clear whether the dead were Taliban or civilians or someone else. The title on the posting called them Taliban insurgents and said the men were from Camp Lejeune, N.C., but officials would not immediately confirm it.

          Officials said they had not yet verified the video's origin or authenticity, but had no reason to doubt what it was.

          "It clearly appears to be to us what it appears to be to you: troops urinating on corpses," Pentagon spokesman Capt. John Kirby told reporters Thursday morning,

          The video was roundly denounced in the U.S. and Afghanistan alike.

          Karzai called it "completely inhumane." He called on the U.S. military to punish those responsible.

          The Afghan Defense Ministry called it "shocking." And the Taliban issued a statement accusing U.S. forces of committing numerous "indignities" against the Afghan people.

          "First, they killed the Afghans with mortars, and they then urinated on their bodies," Taliban spokesman Zabiullah Mujahid said of what is shown in the video. "We strongly condemn this inhumane action by the wild American soldiers."

          Panetta said the actions, if confirmed, were inexcusable.

          "I have seen the footage, and I find the behavior depicted in it utterly deplorable. I condemn it in the strongest possible terms," Panetta's statement said. "Those found to have engaged in such conduct will be held accountable to the fullest extent."

          Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton expressed "total dismay" at the video and said it was "absolutely inconsistent with the standards of behavior that the vast majority of Marines hold themselves to."

          While NCIS starts its investigation, Amos has assigned a Marine general officer and a senior attorney to head an "internal preliminary inquiry." It's not immediately clear who those officials are, although both have "extensive combat experience," Amos said in his statement. Once the investigation and inquiry are complete, the service will take "the appropriate next steps."

          "Rest assured that the institution of the Marine Corps will not rest until the allegations and the events surrounding them have been resolved," Amos said.

          Marine officials at the Pentagon learned of the video Wednesday after receiving a media query from The Sun, a British tabloid, said Capt. Kendra Hardesty, a Marine spokeswoman at the Pentagon. The 40-second clip, titled "Marines peeing on taliban," has spread to numerous websites, attracting thousands of views and comments – some of them criticizing the men in the video and condemning the Marine Corps at large.

          A caption beneath the video identifies the men as members of a scout sniper team assigned to 3rd Battalion, 2nd Marines, out of Camp Lejeune. Although the identities of the Marines in the video or their unit has not been confirmed, one does hold an M-40 bolt-action sniper rifle used by Marine snipers.

          That infantry battalion returned to Camp Lejeune in September and October from a standard seven-month deployment to Afghanistan's Helmand province. Its Marines saw intense action in and around Musa Qala, a violent district located in northern Helmand.

          A spokesman for the battalion's parent command, 2nd Marine Expeditionary Force, declined to discuss the matter, saying that despite widespread media reports linking the individuals in the video to the Camp Lejeune unit, there is no verification these men were assigned anywhere within 2nd MEF.

          The video came to light at a delicate time in relations among the United States, Afghanistan's elected government and the Taliban insurgency fighting for both territorial control and cultural and religious pre-eminence in Afghanistan. The U.S. is trying to foster peace talks between the Karzai government and the Pakistan-based Taliban high command, and has made unprecedented offers to build trust with the insurgents, including the planned opening of a Taliban political office to oversee talks.

          One of the largest obstacles to peace discussions has been widespread Afghan contempt for U.S. military tactics often criticized as heavy-handed. Opposition to the U.S. and NATO military presence in Afghanistan usually centers on civilian casualties from military engagement, although the vast majority of those deaths are caused by the insurgents.

          Although the urination video purports to show Taliban fighters, not civilians, it is likely to resonate with those opposed to the U.S. presence and to peace with the U.S.-backed Karzai government.

          The NATO-led security force in Afghanistan released a statement Thursday saying, "This disrespectful act is inexplicable and not in keeping with the high moral standards we expect of coalition forces."

          The actions "appear to have been conducted by a small group of U.S. individuals, who apparently are no longer serving in Afghanistan," the International Security Assistance Force said. The statement did not identify the personnel or explain why the ISAF thought they had left the country.

          Pentagon officials said the criminal investigation would likely look into whether the Marines violated laws of war, which include prohibitions against photographing bodies and detainees and a range of other rules.

          Sen. John McCain, a Navy veteran who fought and was held prisoner in the Vietnam War, said the incident "makes me so sad."

          McCain, the top Republican on the Senate Armed Services Committee, called the Marine Corps one of America's strongest institutions and said its image has apparently been tarnished by "a handful of obviously undisciplined people."

          "There should be an investigation, and these young people should be punished," McCain said Thursday on CBS This Morning.

          In an e-mailed statement, Taliban spokesman Mujahid said, "During these 10 years, American soldiers have tortured our people in various ways, they have shown disrespect to the holy Quran and other holy books, they have burned our bodies, they have killed and tortured our women and children and ... have committed other hateful actions."

          Mujahid urged the U.N. and other international groups to end such actions by U.S. troops.

          On Wednesday, the Council on Islamic-American Relations, a prominent Muslim civil rights and advocacy group based in Washington, protested the video in a letter to Panetta.

          "We condemn this apparent desecration of the dead as a violation of our nation's military regulations and of international laws of war prohibiting such disgusting and immoral actions," the group wrote.

          "If verified as authentic, the video shows behavior that is totally unbecoming of American military personnel and that could ultimately endanger other soldiers and civilians," the letter said.

          www.firstcoastnews.com/news/story.aspx
          • Re: the marine urination video

            Fri, January 13, 2012 - 12:15 PM
            "Indeed, having served in the military during the first Gulf War, I am quite aware of the strict standards, rules of conduct, and the fact that every single member of the armed forces is subject to the Uniform Military Code of Justice, not to mention that they are expected to uphold the standards as defined in the Geneva Convention. If proven, these actions were criminal and I hope they are prosecuted to the full extent of the UCMJ. The Secretary of Defense agrees with me. "

            I am unaware of any incident during the first gulf war that resembles the day to day realities in Afghanistan, so I'm a little reluctant with your claim to expertise. And while it seems rather obvious, my post didn't concern the codes of the military, but natural reactions to being in an environment where someone is constantly trying to kill you.

            Hence, my remarks about Americans needing to recognize the realities of war, and it's costs.

            PS If you think incidents like these are the reasons why the Afghanis don't like us, as opposed to the effects of the actual war, well...
            • Re: the marine urination video

              Fri, January 13, 2012 - 12:28 PM
              <<I am unaware of any incident during the first gulf war that resembles the day to day realities in Afghanistan

              The standards, rules of conduct, the UCMJ, and the Geneva conventions do not change depending upon the differing realities of war.

              <<so I'm a little reluctant with your claim to expertise.

              I never claimed to be any sort of expert, that would be the realm of a military lawyer or judge. But as a member of the United States military one is expected to learn these standards, rules of conduct, and the laws under we are subject to under the UCMJ. As a matter of fact, one must learn them in basic training in order to actually be a member of the United States military. So regardless of the realities of war, one should not make excuses for these actions.

              <<PS If you think incidents like these are the reasons why the Afghanis don't like us, as opposed to the effects of the actual war, well...

              I did not even speak on the reasons the Afghanis don't like us, so I am unsure as to why this comment is even applicable to "what I think".
              • Re: the marine urination video

                Fri, January 13, 2012 - 12:36 PM
                "The standards, rules of conduct, the UCMJ, and the Geneva conventions do not change depending upon the differing realities of war. "

                why are you intentionally ignoring what I Just wrote: "And while it seems rather obvious, my post didn't concern the codes of the military, but natural reactions to being in an environment where someone is constantly trying to kill you. "


                "I did not even speak on the reasons the Afghanis don't like us, so I am unsure as to why this comment is even applicable to "what I think". "

                Well, everybody seems outraged about this and one of the main criticisms is that it's going to be used as a recruitment tool. And while I find what happened unfortunate and disgusting, there are plenty of other things more deserving of my outrage in relation to the conflict in Afghanistan.

                this over the top reaction to such a completely minor incident, compared to the day to day realities of this conflict, and what it entails for people on both sides of the line, depicts a complete disconnect
                • Re: the marine urination video

                  Fri, January 13, 2012 - 12:58 PM
                  You spoke against me finding these actions unacceptable. you also spoke against others that were outraged, and you indicated that this is a non-story, with peoples outrage being more of a story than the actual incident (in your opinion). I am simply demonstrating that these are not my standards, they are universal military and Geneva Convention standards. And if found to be guilty, they broke military and international law in the process. Subsequently, not only is it acceptable to be outraged over this incident, it is also a valid story. And regardless of the realities of war, this sort of crime is not a common occurence.

                  <<Well, everybody seems outraged about this

                  As they should be.

                  <<and one of the main criticisms is that it's going to be used as a recruitment tool.

                  It very well could be, but that speaks nothing of this incident somehow being the catalyst for Afghans to not like us.

                  <<And while I find what happened unfortunate and disgusting

                  It is about time you condemned these actions.

                  <<there are plenty of other things more deserving of my outrage in relation to the conflict in Afghanistan.

                  This incident and others are not mutually exclusive.

                  <<this over the top reaction to such a completely minor incident

                  Desecrating a body and breaking the Uniform Code of Military Justice, not to mention, international law, is by no means minor, regardless of what you are comparing it to.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: the marine urination video

                    Fri, January 13, 2012 - 2:30 PM
                    <but natural reactions to being in an environment where someone is constantly trying to kill you.

                    Hence, my remarks about Americans needing to recognize the realities of war, >

                    pissing on dead bodies is not a natural reaction to stress of war, there were millions fought in WII under much greater stress then these soldiers with a far greater chance of being killed and they didnt go around pissing on dead Germans.

                    what is disturbing about it is you can only imagine what else goes on over there and isnt caught on Camera.
                    • Re: the marine urination video

                      Fri, January 13, 2012 - 2:32 PM
                      <PS If you think incidents like these are the reasons why the Afghanis don't like us, as opposed to the effects of the actual war, well...>

                      oh yeah Muslims love people pissing on there dead, do you know how seriously Muslims take the idea of burring their dead and this kind of insult ? you really are clueless arnt you ?
                      • Re: the marine urination video

                        Fri, January 13, 2012 - 2:44 PM
                        "oh yeah Muslims love people pissing on there dead"

                        lol, Can you not fucking read?


                        "you really are clueless arnt you ?"

                        Elo, I doubt you could even secure employment mopping up after a peep show
                    • Re: the marine urination video

                      Fri, January 13, 2012 - 2:46 PM
                      "pissing on dead bodies is not a natural reaction to stress of war"

                      No, hating the "other side" is. Which pissing on dead bodies is an obvious symptom of.


                      " there were millions fought in WII under much greater stress then these soldiers with a far greater chance of being killed and they didnt go around pissing on dead Germans. "

                      Again, your ignorance is absolutely astounding. I suggest reading up on the number of german women raped and the various execution styles employed at Normandy (a big one was using German pows as a sustainable way to disarm land mines)
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: the marine urination video

                    Fri, January 13, 2012 - 2:37 PM
                    "You spoke against me finding these actions unacceptable."

                    Oh, save your sanctimonious outrage for someone who cares, or at least in a post where it's relevant


                    "you also spoke against others that were outraged, and you indicated that this is a non-story"

                    apparently your ability to read what you reply to is still lacking: getting outraged over this, in the context of the war in Afghanistan is silly. Pissing on a dead body doesn't actually harm anyone. Dropping bombs on them and shooting them does.

                    Sorry if that factoid escaped you while that little bell was ringing in your ear


                    "It is about time you condemned these actions. "

                    Yes, this is so important to you that you even found time to use it for fodder for one of your silly e-grudges. lol, shut the fuck up


                    "This incident and others are not mutually exclusive. "

                    lol, Jeff, there are incidents that occur weekly that are a million times worse than this by any objective standard, which you and the media are more than happy to ignore. Again, if you want to get outraged over an asshole pissing on a pile of burger, while children are getting blown up, that's your prerogative. But don't get upset when I point out how inappropriate, and stupid, your reaction is


                    "Desecrating a body and breaking the Uniform Code of Military Justice, not to mention, international law, is by no means minor, regardless of what you are comparing it to."

                    Jeff, not every element of the Geneva convention represents some high crime. And as far as those documents go, this is a rather minor violation
                    • Re: the marine urination video

                      Fri, January 13, 2012 - 2:41 PM
                      <Again, if you want to get outraged over an asshole pissing on a pile of burger, while children are getting blown up, that's your prerogative.>

                      you seem completely unable to grasp the obvious point that if a person is capable of doing one of these things he is more capable of doing the other, when there is a breakdown of discipline and values in an army all kinds of things can happen. Which is why this sort of thing should be completely unacceptable and punished heavily.

                      we can all see what Dustins platoon would be like, anything goes men, its a war.
                      • Re: the marine urination video

                        Fri, January 13, 2012 - 2:52 PM
                        "we can all see what Dustins platoon would be like, anything goes men, its a war."

                        Yes, me pointing out larger horrors, and the absurdity of people being outraged over something completely inconsequential, shows that I support all manner of war crimes.

                        Again, it's sad that you're able to procreate


                        • Re: the marine urination video

                          Fri, January 13, 2012 - 3:03 PM
                          war crimes have a tendency to start small and get bigger and out of control if nobody buttons it, if people like you go around saying its what you can expect in a war, beside the point we have already seen cases of torture and incorrect killings come out of there.
                          • Re: the marine urination video

                            Fri, January 13, 2012 - 3:14 PM
                            did I suggest it shouldn't be dealt with? No, I suggested that a) the response to it was out of proportion given what is actually going on in Afghanistan, and that b) things like this are bound to happen in a conflict of this nature. So the American people should probably those romantic notions they have of war

                            will these points continue to be lost on you? Indeed
                            • Re: the marine urination video

                              Sat, January 14, 2012 - 6:07 AM
                              <So the American people should probably those romantic notions they have of war >

                              look Im willing to agree with that point particularly when levels at much of the right in America who even after things like Vietnam and Iraq still tend to try and glamorize war.

                              However i think your much too nonchalant about this incident when put in the context of other things as Gerbil says below -

                              <if an afghan is sitting around not outraged at the condition the american and NATO war has left their country and this all of a sudden spurs them into action, then they weren't paying attention.>

                              I think your way underestimating -

                              - During the conflict support for US presence has steadily dropped too levels that only a minority support it now (though i havnt checked recent figure in about the last year)

                              - often with Muslims psychological respect and symbolism can be just as strong as things like killings, can you imagine for example what reaction we would get from them countries with pictures of marines pissing on the Quran ?

                              - the whole purpose in staying in Afghanistan for a decade, with the huge cost to life and huge financial cost of that, the psychological battle of encouraging Afghans to develop in more of a western democratic way to that of a Taliban way, can be really undermined by things like this

                              given them factors i think discipline to prevent these things should be really high. Ok you might be right that in war thats sometimes very difficult to prevent in a watertight way.

                              Non the less, your really underplay the cost of this incident psychologically to the US in that region, its very unlikely that many Muslims in the region will share your nonchalance about it.

                              Should we have to walk on eggshells with the Muslims because there sometimes coming from a different perspective ? when you impose a decade long occupation on people which often comes with high "collateral damage" that goes with the territory.

                              • Re: the marine urination video

                                Sat, January 14, 2012 - 9:09 AM
                                "However i think your much too nonchalant about this incident when put in the context of other things as Gerbil says below -

                                <if an afghan is sitting around not outraged at the condition the american and NATO war has left their country and this all of a sudden spurs them into action, then they weren't paying attention.> "

                                Ugh, it sounds like Gerbil is Making a similar point to myself


                              • Re: the marine urination video

                                Sun, January 15, 2012 - 11:26 AM
                                underestimating what exactly? my point is that if this incident all of a sudden generates outrage that was nonexistent prior then that afghani was not paying attention. i also made clear that after 10 years of occupation that anger might prove fruitless in the face of an occupation that didn't really have a clear ending. you can only remain outraged at something for so long before that outrage turns fruitless. this incident only allows that outrage to have an outlet at something new.

                                <its very unlikely that many Muslims in the region will share your nonchalance about it.>

                                nonchalance? what in the dickens are you talking about, elo? i've been far from nonchalant about the incident. i just happen to agree, not on the same level perhaps, with dustin that this incident shouldn't generate as much outrage as it has. instead of being outraged at a pissing incident, let's get outraged that the american occupation has lasted for 10 years and the taliban is still a legitimate, though much less powerful, force in the country.

                                i've advocated for a long time in this tribe that the united states should get the fuck out of afghanistan. i just want to make that clear before you attempt to paint me as an apologist for the war mongerers in washington and try to paint me as some sort of supporter of this awful war.
                                • Re: the marine urination video

                                  Sun, January 15, 2012 - 11:50 AM
                                  "i've advocated for a long time in this tribe that the united states should get the fuck out of afghanistan. i just want to make that clear before you attempt to paint me as an apologist for the war mongerers in washington and try to paint me as some sort of supporter of this awful war."

                                  That's what he always does: you disagree with him on any level, regardless of what that is based on, you are attempting to justify all manner of evil, and open to all manner of personal attacks from him. The funniest part is the guy is constantly complaining about personal attacks

                                  Read any thread that he's heavily involved in. It's always the same
                                • Re: the marine urination video

                                  Mon, January 16, 2012 - 12:32 AM
                                  what i thought you were saying Gerbil is this is yet another incident for the Afghans to dislike America being there.

                                  < instead of being outraged at a pissing incident, let's get outraged that the american occupation has lasted for 10 years and the taliban is still a legitimate, though much less powerful, force in the country. >

                                  problem is when assessing how well this is going, its not just what outrages us, its also what outrages Afghans and other Muslims, and i think pissing on the dead with the kind of symbolism contained in that act is something that will outrage many of them. Just because you and Dustin see it as no big deal doesnt mean millions of Muslims from that region will take it that way.

                                  So i think concern about that video is very sensible. Treatment of the dead is something that's normally taken pretty seriously in Muslim countries.

                                  Relations between Muslims and the west is surely the whole point in our presence in Afghanistan and the point of incurring the huge cost it entails.


                                  • Re: the marine urination video

                                    Mon, January 16, 2012 - 9:00 AM
                                    "problem is when assessing how well this is going, its not just what outrages us, its also what outrages Afghans and other Muslims, and i think pissing on the dead with the kind of symbolism contained in that act is something that will outrage many of them. Just because you and Dustin see it as no big deal doesnt mean millions of Muslims from that region will take it that way. "

                                    Jesus Christ, do you not understand what the word "context" means. Open a fucking dictionary



                                    "So i think concern about that video is very sensible. Treatment of the dead is something that's normally taken pretty seriously in Muslim countries. "

                                    Say unlike blowing people up...


                                    "Relations between Muslims and the west is surely the whole point in our presence in Afghanistan and the point of incurring the huge cost it entails. "

                                    Yes, nothing spreads good will like blowing things up.
                                  • Re: the marine urination video

                                    Mon, January 16, 2012 - 12:31 PM
                                    once again, elo, i do find this to be a big deal so i'm not sure why you continue to say i don't. i just don't think it rises to the level of other atrocities committed by u.s. and nato forces in afghanistan. like i said, this is just pouring lighter fluid onto an already raging fire.
                                    • Re: the marine urination video

                                      Mon, January 16, 2012 - 5:47 PM
                                      www.wired.com/dangerroom/...orpse-video/
                                      A sign of the times, perhaps, in Afghanistan: When a video appears purporting to show Marines urinating on the corpses of Afghans, the U.S. military denounces it more strongly than the Taliban does. So far, Afghan reaction overall has been muted, and now there might not be insurgent propaganda to fan outrage. Could Afghans — even Afghan militants — be that jaded with the U.S. after 10 years of war?

                                      The video has all the ingredients of a scandal. It shows, apparently, desecration of corpses by laughing service members. It’s gone viral. And it occurs in the context of a grueling war that requires Afghan support.

                                      But the missing ingredient, so far, is Afghan outrage. There have yet to be protests, let alone violence — although it’s possible that will take time to build. Yet just this past spring, Afghans rioted in response to a preacher who burned Korans in Florida, which occurred shortly after photos surfaced of a rogue U.S. “kill team” posing with their gruesome trophies. Twenty people died in those riots after protesters in Mazar-e-Sharif stormed a United Nations compound.

                                      The U.S. isn’t taking any chances. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta called the video “utterly deplorable.” Marine Commandant Gen. James Amos called it “wholly inconsistent with the high standards of conduct and warrior ethos that we have demonstrated throughout our history.” Added the U.S. military command in Afghanistan, “This disrespectful act is inexplicable and not in keeping with the high moral standards we expect of coalition forces.” There’s even a criminal inquiry, run by the Naval Criminal Investigative Service, to determine if the video is authentic — and if so, whether the urination violates the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

                                      Notably, the Taliban isn’t even trying to exploit the video. “This is not the first time we see such brutality,” said spokesman Zabihullah Mujahid. This is the same organization that tweets out propaganda about every perceived U.S. misstep — including arguably less offensive ones, like calling the military “terrorists” for the night raids that have become routine. Perhaps the Taliban don’t want the video to derail negotiations with the Obama administration to end the war.

                                      To be fair, the Afghan government called the apparent Marine urination “simply inhuman” and called for trials and punishment. But it conspicuously didn’t blame the entire U.S. military for the video, nor did it call upon the NATO command to make any tactical changes — even while President Hamid Karzai has been campaigning for an end to night raids by U.S. commandos.

                                      Perhaps the outrage is taking longer to build than usual. Even so, that would amount to a tragic popular judgment on the war: Afghans — who’ve lived through 30 years of war with Russians, Americans, and rival Afghan factions — just might not be so surprised by a videotaped outrage anymore.
                                      • Re: the marine urination video

                                        Tue, January 17, 2012 - 11:14 AM
                                        I don't think that this incident comes as a surprise to many Afghans, but I also think they are muting their reactions being that the Taliban, the Afghans and the US are currently in peace talks to end the war. Do you think it says something about the Talibans interest in these talks succeeding being that they have not yet used this as propaganda?
                                        • Re: the marine urination video

                                          Tue, January 17, 2012 - 11:44 AM
                                          why would your average afghan censor themselves due to the peace talks? I mean, does your average american censor themselves due to political considerations, or is there always a plethora of braying idiots, like this thread so well demonstrates?

                                          Also, the taliban did comment on it, they said it was nothing surprising: "“This is not the first time we see such brutality,” said spokesman Zabihullah Mujahid. ". Hence, it has no real use as propaganda.

                                          But maybe the entire nation is populated by necros that get off by peeing on people. I mean, besides the fact that there are thousands of more horrendous incidents to get outraged about, that occur weekly, it's the only explanation...

                                          *rings bell*
                                          • Re: the marine urination video

                                            Tue, January 17, 2012 - 3:07 PM
                                            <Hence, it has no real use as propaganda.>

                                            the christian science monitor wrote a decent article detailing why terry jones' burning the koran elicited a greater response than the "kill team" photos. perhaps the afghan's reverence for their dead after nearly 3 decades of conflict is overplayed in the media but their religious adherence and reverence is still as strong as ever.

                                            www.csmonitor.com/World/Asi...n-protests
                                            The disproportionate responses to the two incidents reveal Afghans’ increasingly complex attitude to the ongoing foreign presence in their country. Internationals have become increasingly unpopular, but after nearly a decade of the current war, many Afghans say they are numb to civilian causalities. Some say they assume that killing innocent people is business as usual for foreign forces.

                                            “The people of Afghanistan are very sensitive about Islamic principles. But ... there was a lot of blood shed for three decades in Afghanistan. Also it has become common since 2001 that many civilians are killed during military operations,” says Baryalai Hakimi, the head of the law and political science department at the National Center for Policy Research in Kabul. “The issue of killing civilians is serious, but not so serious as the Quran burning.”
                                            ....
                                            Yet in a country where only 28.1 percent of the population is literate and many Afghans, especially those in rural areas, have only sporadic access to TV, such a news story is difficult to translate.
                                            • Re: the marine urination video

                                              Tue, January 17, 2012 - 3:16 PM
                                              Yet in a country where only 28.1 percent of the population is literate and many Afghans, especially those in rural areas, have only sporadic access to TV, such a news story is difficult to translate.

                                              Most reaction, therefore, was confined to political circles and educated Afghans. And among the broader population who were aware of the killings and trial, the muted response may simply confirm the well-entrenched view that international forces place limited value on protecting civilians.

                                              “When it comes to the general population’s perception of what is being done in terms of civilian casualties, I believe it has promoted a very negative picture of international forces. I think that for the legitimacy of the Afghan government, for the legitimacy of the international community, we have to avoid such perceptions getting stronger and stronger,” says Walilullah Rahmani, executive director of the Kabul Center for Strategic Studies.

                                              A story about Americans burning a Quran, on the other hand, moves easily by word of mouth and is readily understood by all Afghans.

                                              "Afghans are religiously conservative people and most of our population, they are not even middle class. So the lower class level of Afghans are highly tribal and religious and this religious sector always motivates things," notes Mr. Rahmani.
                                              • Re: the marine urination video

                                                Tue, January 17, 2012 - 3:27 PM
                                                "Yet in a country where only 28.1 percent of the population is literate and many Afghans, especially those in rural areas, have only sporadic access to TV, such a news story is difficult to translate. "

                                                1) it's a fucking set of pictures

                                                2) disseminating a story among the population never proved difficult in the past


                                                "A story about Americans burning a Quran, on the other hand, moves easily by word of mouth and is readily understood by all Afghans. "

                                                "they were pissing on dead bodies" isn't some complex abstract concept
                                                • Re: the marine urination video

                                                  Tue, January 17, 2012 - 3:40 PM
                                                  <1) it's a fucking set of pictures >

                                                  without access to a tv, the urination video would look like nothing more than marines standing over the dead afghans. not sure how high-def they get there pictures out there in the boonies.

                                                  <2) disseminating a story among the population never proved difficult in the past>

                                                  it's one theory on why the two stories had such different reactions. one prompted violence and several deaths. the other prompted what amounts to a collective yawn. whether you agree with it or lend it any credence is up to you.

                                                  <"they were pissing on dead bodies" isn't some complex abstract concept>

                                                  and the counterargument to that is that with the country embroiled in conflict for 3 decades, abuses like this from foreign soldiers has become par for the course and doesn't elicit the same type of reaction as a slight towards their religion and the koran.
                                          • Re: the marine urination video

                                            Tue, January 17, 2012 - 3:13 PM
                                            <<why would your average afghan censor themselves due to the peace talks?

                                            By "they" I meant the Afghan Govt. and the Taliban, hence my question for Gerbil regarding the lack of Taliban propaganda over the matter. Now please step back and allow Gerbil to answer the question I directed at him, I am interested in his insight.

                                            <<Also, the taliban did comment on it, they said it was nothing surprising:

                                            I already indicated that it comes as no surprise to the Afghan people.
                                            • Re: the marine urination video

                                              Tue, January 17, 2012 - 3:30 PM
                                              "I already indicated that it comes as no surprise to the Afghan people"

                                              Earlier I thought it was some grave insult that required public wailing and outrage greater than that of dead babies?
                                              • Re: the marine urination video

                                                Tue, January 17, 2012 - 3:50 PM
                                                <<Earlier I thought it was some grave insult that required public wailing and outrage greater than that of dead babies?

                                                Nobody has made any such comparison, so I am unsure as to where your "outrage greater than that of dead babies" is even coming from. Maybe you are feeling a little defensive in the wake of downplaying the issue and are now overcompensating? Getting my head chopped off would be way worse than getting my hand chopped off, but that would not change my feelings regarding losing a hand. Same thing here, pissing on a dead Taliban is not as bad as a dead baby, but that does not change the fact that it is still a reprehensible crime. Yes, people can be outraged on multiple things and at differing levels of outrage, which is absolutely appropriate.
                                                • Re: the marine urination video

                                                  Tue, January 17, 2012 - 7:14 PM
                                                  "Maybe you are feeling a little defensive in the wake of downplaying the issue and are now overcompensating?

                                                  not really. In fact, i still think it was completely insignificant, and inconsequential, to the context of the larger conflict


                                                  "Getting my head chopped off would be way worse than getting my hand chopped off, but that would not change my feelings regarding losing a hand. Same thing here, pissing on a dead Taliban is not as bad as a dead baby, but that does not change the fact that it is still a reprehensible crime."

                                                  the problem is that one act actually harms someone, the other doesn't. So a comparison to two act that explicitly cause harm doesn't really work...


                                                  "Yes, people can be outraged on multiple things and at differing levels of outrage, which is absolutely appropriate. "


                                                  uspolitics.tribe.net/thread/...d95fc54b
                                                  • Re: the marine urination video

                                                    Wed, January 18, 2012 - 12:10 PM
                                                    <<"Maybe you are feeling a little defensive in the wake of downplaying the issue and are now overcompensating?

                                                    not really. In fact, i still think it was completely insignificant, and inconsequential, to the context of the larger conflict <<

                                                    Sure, if you are evaluating the entirety of of the conflict. But again, one can be appropriately outraged without having to compare it to the overall conflict. It can and does stand on it's own as not only a crime, but an international war crime.
                          • Re: the marine urination video

                            Fri, January 13, 2012 - 3:25 PM
                            it is what you should expect in a war. that doesn't make it any less acceptable. it's just a fact of war that horrible shit is done, this being at the lower end of the totem pole. cutting off the dead's fingers as war prizes is a bit higher up. mindlessly shooting up villages rises higher. bombing villages to pieces probably takes the cake for an incident that should provoke the most moral outrage.

                            if an afghan is sitting around not outraged at the condition the american and NATO war has left their country and this all of a sudden spurs them into action, then they weren't paying attention.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: the marine urination video

                    Fri, January 13, 2012 - 2:48 PM
                    "It very well could be, but that speaks nothing of this incident somehow being the catalyst for Afghans to not like us. "

                    Yes, I'm sure Sabib was just sitting around, after having his entire family killed in a drone strike, and this incident spurred him into action

                    Again, complete disconnect
                    • Re: the marine urination video

                      Sat, January 14, 2012 - 6:16 AM
                      <Yes, I'm sure Sabib was just sitting around, after having his entire family killed in a drone strike, and this incident spurred him into action>

                      Id be willing to bet that Al Quiedas membership jumps in a month following this videos publication. You seem to not understand the psychological or symbolic aspect to the resentment of fundamentalists towards the west. I wouldn't be surprised if fundamentalist groups upload this video to there website.

                      In other words this is a big propaganda loss for the US and gain for the fundamentalist, probably just as big actually as images of civilian causalities.

                      You see the civilian causalities can be justified as a genuine mistake that we are sorry for and try our best to avoid, though of course im not saying that makes it all ok, but this cannot. Clearly this is an intentional insult, and to the fundies and some Muslims, that makes a difference.
                      • Re: the marine urination video

                        Sat, January 14, 2012 - 9:11 AM
                        "You see the civilian causalities can be justified as a genuine mistake that we are sorry for and try our best to avoid"

                        Sabib will sleep better now

                        PS I'm done interacting with you in this thread. You inability to even grasp the simplest of ideas is tiring, as usual
                        • This post was deleted by Gerbil
                          • This post was deleted by Gerbil
                          • Re: the marine urination video

                            Sun, January 15, 2012 - 1:31 PM
                            no one tried to justify such actions. In fact, I have pointed this out to you a half dozen times already. Yet, for some reason, this basic fact still escapes you...
  • Re: the marine urination video

    Wed, January 18, 2012 - 5:01 PM
    www.guardian.co.uk/commenti...war-crime
    The video of US marines urinating on Afghan corpses does not shock me. Though their behavior is disgusting and unacceptable, I find the public's reaction to this video far more troubling. People are not outraged that there are dead Afghans; they are outraged at the manner in which the dead are treated. This is indicative of our culture's tolerance for war and war crimes – as long as they are done in a gentlemanly fashion.

    During the second siege of Fallujah, blatant war crimes were committed, yet the corporate media reported them with indifference. The siege itself was a war crime, according to the International Committee of the Red Cross Summary of International Law, because indiscriminate tactics were used, constant care was not taken to protect the civilian population, proper distinction between civilians and combatants was not made, medical personnel and medical units were not protected, indiscriminate weapons were used, and recent research about the current health crisis in Fallujah suggests that poisonous weapons may have been used as well.

    Many of these war crimes were reported by the corporate media, though they were not described as such. For example, the New York Times reported on 8 November 2004 that American forces "seized" the Fallujah general hospital. An incident that I witnessed, as did Paul Wood and Robbie Wright from the BBC, was when my unit fired grenades into a house until it collapsed – with full knowledge that there were two resistance fighters and a young boy (roughly 10 years old) inside. Paul Wood interviewed the lieutenant at the scene, and he acknowledged that they had killed the young boy. In both of these reports, war crimes and Geneva Conventions were never mentioned, and the façade of honorable conduct was preserved.

    What did not make it into the news was my behavior in Fallujah and the behavior of others in my unit, which I am certain would have elicited outrage equal to that elicited by this video of the urinating marines. I believe that the second siege of Fallujah can correctly be characterised as an "atrocity-producing situation". Our false beliefs about who we were fighting, our dehumanisation of Fallujans, our desire to "see combat" (a cute euphemism) and to get a confirmed kill, and our longing for revenge for lost comrades against a faceless enemy all conspired to create a bloodthirsty and lawless atmosphere.

    I witnessed marines stealing from the pockets of dead resistance fighters and looting houses. I've heard firsthand accounts of marines mutilating dead bodies, of a marine who murdered a civilian, and of a marine who slit a puppy's throat. As the days of the siege passed, we used increasingly indiscriminate and illegal tactics – like "reconnaissance by fire", which is when you fire into a house to see if anyone is inside. The violence, the hate and our distorted sense of morality made many of us sick, including myself. I stole a black ski mask out of someone's home, because I wanted to take it home as a trophy, as evidence that I had fought against the "terrorists".

    My behavior and the behavior of others in my unit was despicable, as was the behavior of these marines urinating on corpses. But we shouldn't let ourselves be fooled that an immoral mission and immoral war could ever be conducted in an honorable manner. War crimes were implicit in the invasion and occupation of Iraq, and they are abundant in the continued occupation of Afghanistan.

    Yet, many of us choose not to see these war crimes, even though they are right in front of our faces. Only when a shocking YouTube video comes along, do we choose to look. And even then, what we see is the urinating, not the dead bodies.
    • Re: the marine urination video

      Wed, January 18, 2012 - 6:02 PM
      "Many of these war crimes were reported by the corporate media, though they were not described as such. For example, the New York Times reported on 8 November 2004 that American forces "seized" the Fallujah general hospital. An incident that I witnessed, as did Paul Wood and Robbie Wright from the BBC, was when my unit fired grenades into a house until it collapsed – with full knowledge that there were two resistance fighters and a young boy (roughly 10 years old) inside. Paul Wood interviewed the lieutenant at the scene, and he acknowledged that they had killed the young boy. In both of these reports, war crimes and Geneva Conventions were never mentioned, and the façade of honorable conduct was preserved. "

      This guy doesn't understand international law

      4th geneva convention: "Art. 28. The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations."

      As sad as it is, the mere presence of a child isn't intended to act as a shield for attacking forces because such would only promote their use as human shields and operations from civilian areas.
  • C
    C
    offline 32

    Re: the marine urination video

    Thu, January 19, 2012 - 6:58 PM
    to piss on enemy, is maybe not to bad !
    but I do not get how the people of Afganistan become enemy to USA ? !
    Honestly I think they have good reason to piss on American soldiers !
  • Re: the marine urination video

    Mon, February 27, 2012 - 3:43 PM
    www.washingtonpost.com/world/...ry.html
    Afghans protest burning of Korans at U.S. base
    By Kevin Sieff, Published: February 21

    BAGRAM, Afghanistan — As thousands of angry Afghans flung rocks at NATO’s largest military base in Afghanistan on Tuesday, American officials sought to quell a widening furor over what they said was the accidental incineration by U.S. military personnel of copies of the Islamic holy book.

    The protests erupted early Tuesday after Afghans working at Bagram air base told local residents that a number of copies of the Koran had been burned. When they carried out the charred pages, waving them in the air, the crowd grew larger and more defiant.

    Among those chanting “Long live Islam” and “Death to America” were some of the 5,000 Afghans who have worked inside the base for years. Gen. John R. Allen, the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan, was quick to express contrition for the incident, which officials worried could incite violence across the country.

    U.S. officials said the books were mistakenly sent with a pile of trash for disposal before several Afghans identified them. Although the initial protests were concentrated largely around the Bagram base, some of the charred Koran remains were sent promptly to Kabul, where President Hamid Karzai and other top Afghan officials will decide how to respond to the incident.

    “These people must be punished,” said Qari Ghulam Mustafa, a top religious official from Parwan province, where Bagram is located. He carried a stack of 10 blackened Korans on his lap as he and others traveled to the capital in a white hatchback. He said nearly 100 more publications were damaged.

    “If the Americans ever deny that they did this, we will show them these pages,” said Mullah Abdul Rahim Shah Agha, the head of the Parwan ulema council, or Muslim clerical body.

    The apologies from Allen and top Obama administration officials were among the most profuse of the decade-long war. But there was no immediate indication that they would calm the kind of unrest that has turned explosive in the past, notably in April, when deadly protests broke out over a case of Koran-burning in Florida.

    “When we learned of these actions, we immediately intervened and stopped them,” Allen said in a statement. “We are taking steps to ensure this does not ever happen again. I assure you . . . I promise you . . . this was NOT intentional in any way.”

    The United States faces an enormous challenge in withdrawing its troops over the next two years while attempting to protect hard-won gains and facilitate a delicate peace process between the Afghan government and Taliban insurgents. With so little margin for error, the incident Tuesday could threaten the relationship on which U.S. military and diplomatic strategies depend.

    U.S. and Afghan officials expressed concern about the prospect of more violent reaction in coming days.

    The U.S. Embassy in Kabul warned American citizens, “Past demonstrations in Afghanistan have escalated into violent attacks on Western targets of opportunity.”

    The incident also could complicate relations between NATO forces and those Afghans who perform a variety of nonmilitary functions on bases. The hundreds of Bagram employees who were among the protesters will have to decide whether to leave their jobs or continue working while disguising their antipathy.

    “The people who do this are our enemies,” said a 27-year-old who has worked at a warehouse on the base for two years. “How could I ever work for them again?”

    Another Bagram employee who joined the protest said, “Whoever goes back to work will be killed. They’ll think of us as traitors.” The workers declined to give their names for fear of reprisals.

    More than 3,000 people were involved in the protests Tuesday. Afghan and Western security forces blocked roads leading to the base and instructed local employees to stay home. But when they heard about the incident, the workers arrived at the base’s front gate in droves.

    Rumors about the incident — and American motives — circulated through the crowd. In Kabul, 35 miles to the south, even top Afghan officials struggled to understand what had happened.

    Gen. Ahmad Amin Naseeb, director of the Afghan army’s religious and cultural affairs department, said he had been told “that the international troops have burned and thrown copies of the Koran into the dustbins.”

    In his second statement of the day, Allen announced that all NATO forces in Afghanistan would complete training in the proper handling of religious materials by March 3.

    NATO said religious materials, including Korans “identified for disposal,” were collected at the Parwan Detention Facility, a prison next to the base, and “were inadvertently taken to an incineration facility at Bagram airfield” Monday night.

    A senior U.S. military official said the Korans were removed from the prison library because they had radical or inflammatory messages scrawled in them. A Western official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, told the Associated Press that the texts were charred but that none were destroyed.

    Proper treatment of the Koran is a highly sensitive issue for Muslims across the world, including in Afghanistan, where international troops are fighting to defeat the militantly Islamist Taliban in a war that has entered its 11th year. Experts in Islam say copies of the Koran should be buried or released in flowing waters if they need to be disposed of, but religious leaders in Afghanistan said Tuesday that local practice is not to dispose of the texts at all.

    In Washington, White House spokesman Jay Carney echoed Allen’s apology, saying: “We apologize to the Afghan people and disapprove of such conduct in the strongest possible terms. This deeply unfortunate incident does not reflect the great respect our military has for the Afghan people. It’s regrettable.”

    Staff writer Greg Jaffe in Washington and special correspondents Sayed Salahuddin and Walid Fazly in Kabul contributed to this report.

    © The Washington Post Company
    • Re: the marine urination video

      Mon, February 27, 2012 - 3:46 PM
      www.washingtonpost.com/world/...nt.html
      Karzai urges Afghans to avoid violent retaliation over Koran burnings
      By Javed Hamdard, Published: February 26

      KABUL, Afghanistan — President Hamid Karzai on Sunday urged Afghans to avoid violent retaliation for the burning of a pile of Korans at the main U.S. military base in Afghanistan last week and called for the punishment of those behind the act, which sparked nationwide protests.

      Karzai also voiced his support for NATO’s decision Saturday to recall its personnel from Afghan ministries after two U.S. service members were killed by an Afghan security official in the country’s heavily protected Interior Ministry earlier in the day. Karzai described the move as “temporary” and justifiable in the face of the attacks and spreading protests.

      Meanwhile, officials in the northern Kunduz province said residents took part in fresh demonstrations Sunday, attacking a police station and a U.S. military base. At least 16 policemen and a half-dozen U.S. service members were wounded in the attacks, in which protesters used a hand grenade and small arms fire, according to Sarwar Hussaini, a spokesman for Kunduz’s governor.

      Several protesters were wounded during clashes with police, he said.

      The deaths at the ministry in Kabul — by a man wearing an Afghan police uniform — follows Thursday’s assassination of two U.S. troops by an Afghan soldier during protesters’ attack on a U.S. base in the east.

      More than 25 Afghans have died in the demonstrations, and the service members’ killings prompted London to pull its civilian advisers from Afghan ministries, according to British media.

      During days of demonstrations across the country, many protesters pushed for the withdrawal of foreign troops from Afghanistan and chanted slogans against the United States and Karzai.

      Protesters and Afghan Islamic clerics have demanded the parliament and government to put those responsible for the Koran burnings on trial. The resurgent Taliban has urged Afghans to ignore apologies from U.S. authorities over the apparent inadvertent act and urged retaliation against Western installations and military personnel.

      However, Karzai, while pushing for the punishment of those responsible for Koran burning, has called on his countrymen to not resort to violence because he said the insurgents and their foreign backers would manipulate their protests.

      “Now is the time to return to calm and not let the enemies of peace and development to use this situation,” Karzai said in a news conference Sunday.

      “We have asked for justice and punishment for those who have done this act,” he said of the culprits behind the Koran burnings.

      The week’s events have exposed a core vulnerability of the Obama administration’s strategy for winding down the decade-long Afghan war and are seen as a blow to the West’s effort in winning the hearts and minds of Afghans.

      NATO leaders are scheduled to hold a summit in May in Chicago, where they had hoped to finalize details of the withdrawal and the gradual handover of security responsibilities to Afghan forces, as well as report on progress in negotiations with the Taliban.

      The escalating tension here prompted apologies for the Koran burning from President Obama and several top U.S. defense officials. But demonstrations continued unabated over the weekend.

      Special correspondent Sayed Salahuddin contributed to this report.

      © The Washington Post Company
      • Re: the marine urination video

        Tue, February 28, 2012 - 1:29 PM
        www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...19.html
        Republican presidential contender Rick Santorum accused President Barack Obama of "weakness" on Sunday for apologizing to the Islamic world over the U.S. military's recent burning of Qurans in Afghanistan.

        The destruction of copies of the Muslim holy book has outraged much of the international Islamic community, and Obama apologized for what the American government has described as the inadvertent disposal of Qurans in a fire. Santorum's latest rhetorical attack on the president follows his recent questioning of Obama's religion, in which Santorum claimed Obama subscribes to a "phony theology."

        During a Sunday appearance on ABC News, Santorum said that Obama should not have apologized for the holy book destruction because the U.S. military had only accidentally burned Qurans. Santorum then added that Obama's apology, rather than the actual burning of Qurans, was hurting both the image of America abroad and the U.S. military mission in Afghanistan.

        "There was nothing deliberately done wrong here. This was something that happened as a mistake. Killing Americans in uniform is not a mistake ... when that is occurring, you should not be apologizing for something that was -- an unfortunate -- say it’s unfortunate, say that this is something that should have been done," Santorum said. "To apologize for something that was not an intentional act is something that the president of the United States, in my opinion, should not have done."

        "But if it was a mistake, isn’t apologizing the right, important thing to do?" asked ABC News host George Stephanopoulos.

        "It suggests that there is somehow blame, this is somehow that we did something wrong in the sense of doing a deliberate act wrong," Santorum replied. "I think it shows that we are -- that I think it shows weakness."

        Appearing on NBC's "Meet The Press," Santorum again criticized Obama's apology, saying that the Afghanistan government and President Hamid Karzai should apologize to the United States for "attacking and killing our men and women in uniform."

        Santorum was heavily criticized last week for challenging Obama's religous faith, with many observers suggesting that his comment played to conspiracy theories among the Republican base that maintain Obama is secretly Muslim. Santorum's latest Islam-oriented criticism of the president comes as polls show a close race between Santorum and former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney in the upcoming primary battle in Michigan.

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