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Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

topic posted Wed, June 20, 2007 - 7:39 PM by  DVDBurner
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since some here have a grudge against Al Jezeera, I figure I'd try another news media org:


www.indiadaily.com/editorial/17123.asp


Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD : Mumbai based group of intellectuals and human rights activists
Media Release
Jun. 13, 2007

The Mumbai based group alleged that Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD. "There is enough evidence that the Al-Qaeda is a front organization of the CIA and MOSSAD. The Bush junta has used the bogey of terror and of Al Qaeda to justify his unending and ever expanding Global War on Terror, which is only a means of capturing the resources of the world and of establishing the sole hegemony of Israel in West Asia," said the group of activists and intellectuals. The group is holding a press conference in Mumbai on Wednesday to "expose the links between Al-Qaeda and the CIA-MOSSAD".

Holding American-Israeli operation accomplices of the 9/11 attack on the WTC, the spokesman of the group said that this has been widely written about in USA and Europe itself and more than 50% of the American people and far more Europeans, now believe and are convinced about this fact. He said that sections of the Indian ruling political and military elite are importing the same Bush-Olmert formula into India. "The increasing terror attacks only serve the cause of the Indian elite and divide the masses along communal lines. It is only the ordinary Indians who are the victims of terror either in temples, mosques, buses or trains," he said adding that practically no political leader suffers a similar fate, where the terrorists are apprehended and killed in "encounters".

"Every terror attack is meant to push and drag the Indian masses further into the waiting arms of Uncle Sam and the Israeli Goliath. Every terror attack spreads further hatred for Muslims and Islam and weakens the Indian Muslim community," he said.
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  • DVDB...
    DVDBurner
    offline 144

    Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

    Wed, June 20, 2007 - 7:40 PM
    What yall got ta say about dat?
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    • Jeff
      Jeff
      offline 225

      Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

      Wed, June 20, 2007 - 7:51 PM
      Can you prove this assertion?
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      • Sean
        Sean
        offline 92

        Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

        Wed, June 20, 2007 - 7:58 PM
        Maybe the question is, do you really want him to prove it?

        I have a feeling you will fight it every step of the way.
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        • DVDB...
          DVDBurner
          offline 144

          Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

          Wed, June 20, 2007 - 8:02 PM
          Lets get real folks, there is no way anyone can prove anything about the CIA and Mossad.

          It's their job.


          I dont put anything passed these guys. Remember this?



          Australia: Howard Government Knew About Torture and Rendition
          Political Affairs Magazine, NY - 13 hours ago

          Australia, the US and torture


          www.politicalaffairs.net/artic...1/267/

          On Monday evening last week, a documentary news program went to air on the Australian Broadcast Corporation (ABC) containing material of a sort that used to bring down governments or at least cause some of their ministers and senior public servants to fall on their swords. Sally Neighbour’s "Ghost Prisoners" on the ABC program Four Corners was the second part of an exposé that brought together a wealth of material and expert opinion to show conclusively that Australian authorities have co-operated and will continue to co-operate with the CIA’s "rendition" program.

          "Rendition" (or "extraordinary rendition") is a sanitised term to describe how terror suspects or their alleged accomplices are kidnapped and taken to countries like Jordan, Syria and Egypt and to the CIA’s own secret prisons (or "black sites") including several in Eastern European countries for interrogation. The governments of the countries involved deny it but by now the whole world knows the suspects are tortured unmercifully in order to extract information.

          Neighbour’s investigation would have been particularly startling for her Australian audience. The process was laid bare using the example of Australian citizen Mamdouh Habib. The program opened with footage of a Gulfstream executive jet of the sort that took Habib from Islamabad in Pakistan to Cairo in Egypt. The program introduced British journalist Stephen Grey, author of Ghost Plane, who showed his extensive on-screen log of these rendition flights, including the one most likely to have carried the hapless Australian to Cairo in November, 2001.

          Habib was subjected to brutal treatment from the moment he was snatched off a bus by local police in Pakistan three weeks after the devastating 9/11 attacks in the US. In interviews and using home-made re-enactments he videoed with his son, Habib described his ordeal in disturbing detail. Experts, such as Professor Joe Margulies who was a lawyer for a number of Guantánamo detainees who suffered a similar fate, recognised the pattern:

          "Confined to a small cell, windowless, bare metal cot, 6 by 8 foot cell approximately, one blanket, one dimly lit bulb. Unmitigated violence, beatings were routine, some of them creative, some of them just brutal, thuggery."

          Prior to being packed off to Cairo, Habib was prepared for the journey. His clothes were cut off, an object inserted in his anus [prisoners are routinely given an enema prior to their long flights], he was dressed in a grey tracksuit before being chained and handcuffed, drugged and had duct tape put over his mouth.

          In Cairo, his treatment at the hands of Egyptian authorities was unspeakable. Egypt is a trusted friend of the US and Israel. It is also a virtual police state in its twenty-sixth year of a state of emergency with 5,000 political prisoners held without charge and, according to Amnesty International, a total of 18,000 citizens held without any charge against them. Mohamed Zarei, of the Human Rights Centre for the Assistance of Prisoners, told Neighbour that torture is automatic upon detention in his country:

          "There are more than 70 types of torture that citizens are subjected to. Different types of beating — beating with sticks, with bamboo, with a hose, with their hands and legs; electrodes on the hands, on the legs, on the tongue, the genitals. They flood the cell with water. This stops the person from sleeping and he spends all night standing up."

          Habib recounted his experience of most of these during his six months of hell in one of Cairo’s twelve security establishments. He also claims to have seen a man kicked to death, suffered cigarette burns, the removal of his fingernails and sexual assault using trained dogs. He was reported to have been in a very agitated state when he arrived in Guantánamo for the next stage of his nightmare.

          The accounts of torture in the program were distressing. Equally disturbing, though, were the flat denials from US authorities, like current Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and the bald-faced lie that the US would not transport anyone to a country where they believe the person may be tortured. Incidentally, the US continues to harbour admitted anti-Cuba terrorist Posada Carriles and prevent his extradition to Cuba, Venezuela or Nicaragua on the baseless grounds that he could be tortured in the jurisdiction of those countries.

          Former senior CIA officials are slightly more forthcoming. They do not deny that prisoners could be tortured. Michael Scheuer was the Chief Special Advisor to the CIA’s Bin Laden Unit from 1996 to 2004:

          Sally Neighbour (to Michael Scheuer): What did you expect would happen to people when they were sent to Egypt?

          Michael Scheuer: Didn’t care.

          Sally Neighbour (to Michael Scheuer): Did you expect that people would be tortured in Egypt?

          Michael Scheuer: I can say I wouldn’t be surprised. We certainly raised the issues with the White House. Certainly within the CIA it was clear that there was no way we could tell anyone honestly that someone would not be tortured if they were taken to a particular country.

          Of course, former CIA officials estranged from the methods and objectives of that organisation are more candid still:

          Bob Baer, Former CIA Officer and author See No Evil: If you want to get a good interrogation you send a prisoner to Jordan, and the prisons are full in Jordan of American prisoners. If you want somebody tortured to death you send them to Syria. If you never want to hear from them again, send them to Egypt. That’s pretty much the rule.

          By the end of Habib’s interrogation in Egypt, he had "confessed" to a host of crimes including being intimately involved in the planning of the events of September 11. He had trained the pilots involved and even wanted to commandeer a plane himself! Most experts believe the type of "intelligence" gathered by these cruel methods is useless, but not the gnomes within the CIA. "We’re pursuing a war. We’re pursuing it very badly, and at the moment the rendition program remains the most successful US counter-terrorism program in the history of the country", Michael Scheuer again.

          It turns out that Habib was only released when it seemed his case might lift the lid on the whole seedy "rendition" process when he finally got his day in court.

          Perhaps the most contemptible role in all of this was played by the Australian government and its intelligence services. Habib claimed to have met an ASIO agent soon after his detention in Pakistan. The agent told him he was stripped of his Australian citizenship and that the US authorities were now in charge of his fate, which included being "rendered" to Cairo. Habib also claims an Australian was present at a session of interrogation in Cairo. All these claims have been denied.

          In fact, despite documentary evidence obtained under Freedom of Information, the current and previous Attorney General, the Foreign Minister the Commissioner for the Australian Federal Police and the Secretary of the Attorney General all denied knowledge of Habib’s rendition to Egypt. There was a Kafkaesque touch to all the denials, however. Authorities, while denying knowledge of his whereabouts, would reassure Habib’s wife Mara that he was well and being well treated.

          The US experts interviewed on the program were unanimous that Australia would have been fully aware of what was going on. We are part on the very close Anglophone intelligence club that includes the US, Britain, Canada, Australia and (on again and off again) New Zealand.

          Jack Cloonan, Senior Special Agent, FBI’s Bin Laden Unit, 1996-02: This is a willing partner, we’re married to each other. So to think that we, the United States, would just say don’t tell them and we’ll tell them afterwards and don’t worry about it, we’ll clear it up, you know, baloney.

          This was done in a co-ordinated way. Now it may not be popular in Australia and there’s probably people looking to jump in a hole some place because they don’t want to acknowledge this, but believe me, there’s an audit trail and somebody is just not telling you the truth if they are denying this.

          Mamdouh Habib is now suing the Commonwealth for complicity in his wrongful arrest and failure in its duty of care to protect him as a citizen. The Commonwealth is meeting the latter claim with the argument that no such duty exists! Habib’s passport was cancelled in 2005 and has not been restored.
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          • DVDB...
            DVDBurner
            offline 144

            Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

            Wed, June 20, 2007 - 8:03 PM
            I hate games.

            I always win.

            It sucks. Worse, I hate sore losers.
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            • DVDB...
              DVDBurner
              offline 144

              Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

              Wed, June 20, 2007 - 8:09 PM
              Mind you, this is not my opinion and I did not make these stories up.


              It's up to you to prove it's not true.

              I can offer all kinds of info and what I know to be true but that really does not matter does it?

              I guess only I know what is true and not.......well along with those that know what is true and not.
              Please prove it wrong.


              Hey i did my research. Do yours.

              Thanks.
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              • Jeff
                Jeff
                offline 225

                Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

                Thu, June 21, 2007 - 9:45 AM
                <<Hey i did my research. Do yours.

                It is your claim, it is incumbent upon you to demonstrate your research and to show us your sources for these claims.

                My take on the claims in regards to the CIA creating AQ:

                The CIA never funded Al Qaeda as many of you claim. They funded the Mujahadin in Afghanistan in their war against the Soviets. OBL just happened to be one of the Mujahadin, he did not create Al Qaeda until after the Soviets withdrew and the CIA stopped funding the Mujahadin. It is Bin Ladens contention that the CIA abandoned the Mujahadin. Here is some actual corroberating evidence....

                "It is often said that bin Ladin was funded by the CIA. This is not true, and indeed it would have been impossible given the structure of funding that General Zia ul-Haq, who had taken power in Pakistan in 1977, had set up. A condition of Zia's cooperation with the American plan to turn Afghanistan into the Soviet's 'Vietnam' was that all American funding to the Afghan resistance had to be channeled through the Pakistani government, which effectively meant the Afghan bureau of the Inter Services Intelligence (ISI), the military spy agency.

                The American funding, which went exclusively to the Afghan mujahideen groups, not the Arab volunteers [bin Ladin's groups], was supplemented by Saudi government money and huge funds raised from mosques, non-governmental charitable institutions and private donors throughout the Islamic world. Most of the major Gulf-based charities operating today were founded at this time to raise money or channel government funds to the Afghans, civilians and fighters. In fact, as little as 25 per cent of the monet for the Afghan jihad was actually supplied directly by states."
                Page 59, Al Qaeda: The true story of radical Islam
                Jason Burke

                Steve Coll, former Managing Editor of the Washington Post, also suggests bin Ladin passed largely unnoticed by the CIA, in his book "Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001":

                ...According to [Ahemd] Badeeb, on bin Ladin's first trip to Pakistan he brought donations to the Lahore offices of Jamaat-e-Islami, Zia's political shock force. Jamaat was the Pakistani offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood; its students had sacked the US embassy in Islamabad in 1979. bin Ladin did not trust the official Pakistan intelligence service, Badeeb recalled, and preferred to fund his initial charity through private religious and political networks.

                From the beginning of the Afghan jihad, Saudi intelligence used religious charities to support its own unilateral operations. This mainly involved funneling money and equipment to favoured Afghan commanders outisde ISI or CIA control... "The humanitarian aid-that was completely separate from the Americans", Badeeb recalled. "And we insist[ed] that the Americans will not get to that, get involved--especially in the beginning," in part because some of the Islamist mujahedin objected to direct contact with Western infidels...

                In spy lexicon, each of the major intelligence agencies began working the Afghan jihad--GID [General Intelligence Department, Saudi Arabia], ISI and the CIA-- began to "compartment" their work, even as all three collaborated with one another through formal liasons...

                bin Ladin moved within Saudi intelligence's compartmented operations, outside of CIA eyesight...
                Page 86/ 87, Ghost Wars
                Stevel Coll

                Steve Coll: I did not discover any evidence of direct contact between CIA officers and bin Laden during the 1980s, when they were working more or less in common cause against the Soviets. CIA officials, including Tenet, have denied under oath that such contact took place. The CIA was certainly aware of bin Laden's activities, beginning in the mid- to late-1980s, and they generally looked favorably on what he was doing at that time. But bin Laden's direct contacts were with Saudi intelligence and to some extent Pakistani intelligence, not with the Americans.
                foi.missouri.edu/terrorint...twars.html

                bin Ladin was himself asked about US funding by Robert Fisk:

                Fisk: ...what of the Arab mujahedin he took to Afghanistan - members of a guerilla army who were also encouraged and armed by the United States - and who were forgotten when that war was over?

                bin Ladin: "Personally neither I nor my brothers saw evidence of American help...
                Fisk interview, 1996
                www.robert-fisk.com/usama_bi...n1996.htm

                And Ayman al-Zawahiri, second-in-command of al Qaeda, explains more in his text "Knights under the Prophet's Banner". Here he claims the "Afghan Arabs" had plenty of funding from various Arab sources, and points to other indications that they never supported the US:

                "While the United States backed Pakistan and the mujahidin factions with money and equipment, the young Arab mujahidin's relationship with the United States was totally different.

                "Indeed the presence of those young Arab Afghans in Afghanistan and their increasing numbers represented a failure of US policy and new proof of the famous US political stupidity. The financing of the activities of the Arab mujahidin in Afghanistan came from aid sent to Afghanistan by popular organizations. It was substantial aid. "The Arab mujahidin did not confine themselves to financing their own jihad but also carried Muslim donations to the Afghan mujahidin themselves. Usama Bin Ladin has apprised me of the size of the popular Arab support for the Afghan mujahidin that amounted, according to his sources, to $200 million in the form of military aid alone in 10 years.

                Imagine how much aid was sent by popular Arab organizations in the non-military fields such as medicine and health, education and vocational training, food, and social assistance (including sponsorship of orphans, widows, and the war handicapped. Add to all this the donations that were sent on special occasions such as Id al-Fitr and Id al-Adha feasts and during the month of Ramadan."

                "Through this unofficial popular support, the Arab mujahidin established training centers and centers for the call to the faith. They formed fronts that trained and equipped thousands of Arab mujahidin and provided them with living expenses, housing, travel, and organization."

                Changing Bin Ladin's Guard

                About the Afghan Arabs' relationship with the United States, Al-Zawahiri says in his book: "If the Arab mujahidin are mercenaries of the United States who rebelled against it as it alleges, why is it unable to buy them back now? Are they not counted now-with Usama Bin Ladin at their head-as the primary threat to US interests? Is not buying them more economical and less costly that the astronomical budgets that the United States is allotting for security and defense?"

                "The Americans, in their usual custom of exaggeration and superficiality, are trying to sell off illusions to the people and are ignoring the most basic facts. Is it possible that Usama Bin Ladin who, in his lectures in the year 1987, called for boycotting US goods as a form of support for the intifadah in Palestine, a US agent in Afghanistan? ...

                "Furthermore, is it possible that the martyr-as we regard him-Abdallah Azzam was a US collaborator when in fact he never stopped inciting young men against the United States and used to back HAMAS with all the resources at his disposal?

                "Is it possible that the jihadist movement in Egypt can be a collaborator movement for the United States when Khalid al-Islambuli and his comrades killed Anwar al-Sadat, even before the phenomenon of the Arab mujahidin in Afghanistan emerged?"

                "Is it possible that the jihadist movement in Egypt can be a US collaborator movement when in fact it brought up its children, ever since the movement started, to reject Israel and all the agreements of capitulation to it and to consider making peace with Israel as a contravention of Islamic Shari'ah?"
                www.uofh.com/114/id_s/1304/


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                • DVDB...
                  DVDBurner
                  offline 144

                  Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

                  Thu, June 21, 2007 - 9:58 AM
                  yeah Jeff, you posted some of this stuff before.

                  Now, just because one says they collected no money it does not mean that they will admit that they were taking monies.

                  What person do you know that takes money illegally will admit that they are doing so?

                  Not saying that taking money from the CIA is illegal.
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                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Jeff
                    Jeff
                    offline 225

                    Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

                    Thu, June 21, 2007 - 5:05 PM
                    <<yeah Jeff, you posted some of this stuff before.

                    Care to add something of substance and address my points?
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                    • Unsu...
                       

                      Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

                      Thu, June 21, 2007 - 5:23 PM
                      Can anyone tell me how many black box agencies there are, that have been in existance
                      for how long under no direct congressional oversight, or implemented oversight, and how much money there is that flows through who knows whose hands, with absolutely no trail,
                      here in good ole USA? Good thing we got this here representational dee-mock-racy!!!!
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                      • DVDB...
                        DVDBurner
                        offline 144

                        Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

                        Thu, June 21, 2007 - 5:25 PM
                        >>>>>Can anyone tell me how many black box agencies there are, that have been in existance
                        for how long under no direct congressional oversight, or implemented oversight, and how much money there is that flows through who knows whose hands, with absolutely no trail,
                        here in good ole USA? Good thing we got this here representational dee-mock-racy!!!!<<<<


                        finally some intelligence. no pun intended.
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                        • DVDB...
                          DVDBurner
                          offline 144

                          Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

                          Thu, June 21, 2007 - 5:28 PM
                          Thing that kills me is how people in this thread can find the article so far fetched.
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                          • Jeff
                            Jeff
                            offline 225

                            Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

                            Thu, June 21, 2007 - 5:55 PM
                            <<Thing that kills me is how people in this thread can find the article so far fetched.

                            I don't think the idea is far fetched. The problem is one of evidence, there is no credible evidence backing up the claim. It is assumption and conjecture with no basis in factual evidence.
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                            • DVDB...
                              DVDBurner
                              offline 144

                              Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

                              Thu, June 21, 2007 - 6:33 PM
                              >>>I don't think the idea is far fetched. The problem is one of evidence, there is no credible evidence backing up the claim. It is assumption and conjecture with no basis in factual evidence.<<<<


                              Ok, time to nip this one in the bud once and for all because you are drifting this thread away from it's original purpose.

                              What purpose you ask?

                              THE PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD:

                              To raise awareness to the possibillities of the articles accusations.
                              Create debate as to what the American government has and have possiblly done in the world.
                              To learn from others what information they have as to this article and other types of info about the secret doings of the American government.






                              Now as far as having anyone prove anything, it is up to YOU as an indivsiual or if one wants proof of the articles authenticity, this shall be sought by the articles author. why? Because it is their article. I did not write it nor am I close to the writer.
                              Fact is, it is a thought provoking article. That is why I posted it.
                              Now maybe YOU might want to find out about the author and other things YOU can find out about the article.
                              That's up to you. outside of that, you are on your own. You take up too much of my time for me to have to sit you down and explain all about birds and bees and everything else your brain should be able to figure out for yourself.

                              plus I hate typing on a system that is not mine.
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                              • Jeff
                                Jeff
                                offline 225

                                Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

                                Thu, June 21, 2007 - 6:58 PM
                                <<To raise awareness to the possibillities of the articles accusations.

                                And when evaluating possibilities you look at the evidence for probability.

                                Maybe next time you should include your intended purpose of your thread, that way people understand that it includes disucussing information outside the realm of the title and article you posted. I have watched you assail people over and over for straying outside the topic of a thread.

                                <<Fact is, it is a thought provoking article. That is why I posted it.

                                Assumption and conjecture....sure, they can be thought provoking. But if you are going to demand others share their opinions and prove them, you should hold yourself to the same standard and do the same. Why do you want others to contribute while you do not?

                                <<You take up too much of my time for me to have to sit you down and explain all about birds and bees and everything else your brain should be able to figure out for yourself.

                                You certainly have taken up a lot of time insulting me rather than actually using your own brain and contributing. You have wasted your own time.
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            • DVDB...
              DVDBurner
              offline 144

              Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

              Thu, June 21, 2007 - 10:04 PM
              And I'm gonna repeat this again since you did not understand this in the beginning when I posted this in my 3rd post:



              "Lets get real folks, there is no way anyone can prove anything about the CIA and Mossad.

              It's their job."


              Your point now Jeff is moot!

              Plus I'm happy now cause I'm on my computer.

              YAY!


              Check and mate. NeXT........................................Is an excellent computer by Jobs.
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              • Jeff
                Jeff
                offline 225

                Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

                Fri, June 22, 2007 - 9:40 AM
                <<"Lets get real folks, there is no way anyone can prove anything about the CIA and Mossad.

                It's their job."


                Your point now Jeff is moot! >>

                Then the whole thread is moot. You say it is unproveable, then you say "PROVE ITS NOT TRUE". If you can't prove it is true, then you can't prove it is not true. Thus your demands for proof while not adding anything yourself is completely illogical.
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        • Jeff
          Jeff
          offline 225

          Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

          Thu, June 21, 2007 - 9:34 AM
          <<Maybe the question is, do you really want him to prove it?

          What an absurd assumption, I want the truth pure and simple wherever that may be. I looked at the evidence in regards to the Iraq war and fought it every step of the way. Just because I looked at the evidence in regards to the claim that Bush perpetrated 9-11 and came to a different conclusion than you does not mean that I trust our govt. If it can be demonstrated, then I will be screaming foul from atop the highest mountain, you can count on that.
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  • Cliff
    Cliff
    offline 83

    Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

    Fri, June 22, 2007 - 4:47 PM
    Of course it is dvd. Of course.

    I am so very happy for you that you have achieved this level of internal peace with yourself finally at last after all those mental help interventions and those endless stays at hospitals and halfway houses. It is wonderful that your internal harmony is finally coming on and you are achieving self actualization. It must be nice to be able to sleep all the way through the night without having your sleep interrupted by those black silent CIA helicopters and the squads of invisible fire breathing flying lizard people under the bed. It’s so very nice to see you at peace with yourself and enjoying the bounty that life has to offer. I am so very happy for you that you have achieved this level of internal peace with yourself finally at last after all those mental help interventions and those endless stays at hospitals and halfway houses. It is wonderful that your internal harmony is finally coming on and you are achieving self actualization. It must be nice to be able to sleep all the way through the night without having your sleep interrupted by those black silent CIA helicopters and the squads of invisible fire breathing flying lizard people under the bed. It’s so very nice to see you at peace with yourself and enjoying the bounty that life has to offer.
    I am so very happy for you that you have achieved this level of internal peace with yourself finally at last after all those mental help interventions and those endless stays at hospitals and halfway houses. It is wonderful that your internal harmony is finally coming on and you are achieving self actualization. It must be nice to be able to sleep all the way through the night without having your sleep interrupted by those black silent CIA helicopters and the squads of invisible fire breathing flying lizard people under the bed. It’s so very nice to see you at peace with yourself and enjoying the bounty that life has to offer.
    I am so very happy for you that you have achieved this level of internal peace with yourself finally at last after all those mental help interventions and those endless stays at hospitals and halfway houses. It is wonderful that your internal harmony is finally coming on and you are achieving self actualization. It must be nice to be able to sleep all the way through the night without having your sleep interrupted by those black silent CIA helicopters and the squads of invisible fire breathing flying lizard people under the bed. It’s so very nice to see you at peace with yourself and enjoying the bounty that life has to offer.
    I am so very happy for you that you have achieved this level of internal peace with yourself finally at last after all those mental help interventions and those endless stays at hospitals and halfway houses. It is wonderful that your internal harmony is finally coming on and you are achieving self actualization. It must be nice to be able to sleep all the way through the night without having your sleep interrupted by those black silent CIA helicopters and the squads of invisible fire breathing flying lizard people under the bed. It’s so very nice to see you at peace with yourself and enjoying the bounty that life has to offer.
    I am so very happy for you that you have achieved this level of internal peace with yourself finally at last after all those mental help interventions and those endless stays at hospitals and halfway houses. It is wonderful that your internal harmony is finally coming on and you are achieving self actualization. It must be nice to be able to sleep all the way through the night without having your sleep interrupted by those black silent CIA helicopters and the squads of invisible fire breathing flying lizard people under the bed. It’s so very nice to see you at peace with yourself and enjoying the bounty that life has to offer.
    I am so very happy for you that you have achieved this level of internal peace with yourself finally at last after all those mental help interventions and those endless stays at hospitals and halfway houses. It is wonderful that your internal harmony is finally coming on and you are achieving self actualization. It must be nice to be able to sleep all the way through the night without having your sleep interrupted by those black silent CIA helicopters and the squads of invisible fire breathing flying lizard people under the bed. It’s so very nice to see you at peace with yourself and enjoying the bounty that life has to offer.
    I am so very happy for you that you have achieved this level of internal peace with yourself finally at last after all those mental help interventions and those endless stays at hospitals and halfway houses. It is wonderful that your internal harmony is finally coming on and you are achieving self actualization. It must be nice to be able to sleep all the way through the night without having your sleep interrupted by those black silent CIA helicopters and the squads of invisible fire breathing flying lizard people under the bed. It’s so very nice to see you at peace with yourself and enjoying the bounty that life has to offer.
    I am so very happy for you that you have achieved this level of internal peace with yourself finally at last after all those mental help interventions and those endless stays at hospitals and halfway houses. It is wonderful that your internal harmony is finally coming on and you are achieving self actualization. It must be nice to be able to sleep all the way through the night without having your sleep interrupted by those black silent CIA helicopters and the squads of invisible fire breathing flying lizard people under the bed. It’s so very nice to see you at peace with yourself and enjoying the bounty that life has to offer.
    I am so very happy for you that you have achieved this level of internal peace with yourself finally at last after all those mental help interventions and those endless stays at hospitals and halfway houses. It is wonderful that your internal harmony is finally coming on and you are achieving self actualization. It must be nice to be able to sleep all the way through the night without having your sleep interrupted by those black silent CIA helicopters and the squads of invisible fire breathing flying lizard people under the bed. It’s so very nice to see you at peace with yourself and enjoying the bounty that life has to offer.
    I am so very happy for you that you have achieved this level of internal peace with yourself finally at last after all those mental help interventions and those endless stays at hospitals and halfway houses. It is wonderful that your internal harmony is finally coming on and you are achieving self actualization. It must be nice to be able to sleep all the way through the night without having your sleep interrupted by those black silent CIA helicopters and the squads of invisible fire breathing flying lizard people under the bed. It’s so very nice to see you at peace with yourself and enjoying the bounty that life has to offer.
    I am so very happy for you that you have achieved this level of internal peace with yourself finally at last after all those mental help interventions and those endless stays at hospitals and halfway houses. It is wonderful that your internal harmony is finally coming on and you are achieving self actualization. It must be nice to be able to sleep all the way through the night without having your sleep interrupted by those black silent CIA helicopters and the squads of invisible fire breathing flying lizard people under the bed. It’s so very nice to see you at peace with yourself and enjoying the bounty that life has to offer.
    I am so very happy for you that you have achieved this level of internal peace with yourself finally at last after all those mental help interventions and those endless stays at hospitals and halfway houses. It is wonderful that your internal harmony is finally coming on and you are achieving self actualization. It must be nice to be able to sleep all the way through the night without having your sleep interrupted by those black silent CIA helicopters and the squads of invisible fire breathing flying lizard people under the bed. It’s so very nice to see you at peace with yourself and enjoying the bounty that life has to offer.
    I am so very happy for you that you have achieved this level of internal peace with yourself finally at last after all those mental help interventions and those endless stays at hospitals and halfway houses. It is wonderful that your internal harmony is finally coming on and you are achieving self actualization. It must be nice to be able to sleep all the way through the night without having your sleep interrupted by those black silent CIA helicopters and the squads of invisible fire breathing flying lizard people under the bed. It’s so very nice to see you at peace with yourself and enjoying the bounty that life has to offer.
    join to post
    • DVDB...
      DVDBurner
      offline 144

      Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

      Sat, June 23, 2007 - 7:55 AM
      entions and those endless stays at hospitals and halfway houses. It is wonderful that your internal harmony is finally coming on and you are achieving self actualization. It must be nice to be able to sleep all the way through the night without having your sle
      join to post
      • Jeff
        Jeff
        offline 225

        Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

        Fri, June 29, 2007 - 12:04 PM
        Bump...
        join to post
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

          Fri, June 29, 2007 - 12:16 PM
          Jeff, ?? You're bump is related to what sort of appraisal of this
          topic-heading? Do you approve of some possible investigation
          into the secret dealings of those we allow to control our so-called
          democracies, or do you wish to cast more dispersive light upon this
          subject? I am quite certain, and I think the general sentiment of this
          thread leans towards the totally improbable likelyhood of any evidence
          either one way or another to prove such subterranean claims.

          Shall we practise more hearsay? Or just let the thread die?
          And know that I am not offended by your skeptical nature.

          Discernment.
          join to post
          • Jeff
            Jeff
            offline 225

            Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

            Fri, June 29, 2007 - 12:29 PM
            <<You're bump is related to what sort of appraisal of this
            topic-heading?

            Read the thread and my previous posts.

            <<Do you approve of some possible investigation
            into the secret dealings of those we allow to control our so-called
            democracies

            Sure, I always approve of investigations IF there is something to actually investigate. Conjecture and assumption do not = probable cause for investigation. Investigate Cheney for the outing of Plame? YES. Investigate Bush and his creation of the Office of Special Plans to re-interpret Iraq intelligence? YES. There are many examples such as this that have evidence to back up an investigation. There has been no credible evidence to the assertion that Al Qaeda is a front organization for the CIA and Mossad. We should not spend our tax payer dollars on wild goose chases.

            <<or do you wish to cast more dispersive light upon this subject?

            I am holding it up to the light of scrutiny, not dispersion. Something that we should do with ALL of our claims, otherwise we are only hurting the credibility of the progressive cause by perpetuating lies, myths, and presenting conjecture and assumption as fact.

            <<I am quite certain, and I think the general sentiment of this
            thread leans towards the totally improbable likelyhood of any evidence
            either one way or another to prove such subterranean claims.

            Actually, read the thread.... I have provided information that demonstrates the likelyhood that Al Qaeda is not a front organization, while there has been no evidence indicating they are.

            <<Shall we practise more hearsay?

            Hearsay is what I am opposing in this thread.
            join to post
            • Jeff
              Jeff
              offline 225

              Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

              Fri, June 29, 2007 - 12:48 PM
              Here is one myth I cleared up for instance...

              Ricardo: <<Its a well known fact that al-Queda was on the CIA payroll durring the Russian occupation of Afganistan.

              Jeff: It is a well known myth. Ricardo, Al Qaeda did NOT EXIST during the Russian occupation of Afhanistan.
              join to post
              • Unsu...
                 

                Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

                Fri, June 29, 2007 - 12:58 PM
                I read the thread. I won't bother to read it again.
                Dry, pointless rubbish. Though, that does not mean
                I do not believe we build up such structures for
                world domination. These thoeries are for fiction,
                AND I WILL MAKE INCREDIBLY GOOD USE OF THEM!
                which might start a worldwide riot. Which I'm all for.

                Isolate all argument around the NAME al-Qaeda,
                maybe that will lead to the dead zone. Which many seem to like.
                I care not what the storefront name is. I can libel them in fiction,
                anyway, and yet show an appreciative picture of what MIGHT
                be going on, despite people's desire to pooh-pooh it.
                Plus, it will make me money.
                join to post
                • Jeff
                  Jeff
                  offline 225

                  Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

                  Fri, June 29, 2007 - 1:04 PM
                  Andrew, would you have the US govt. spend your $$ investigating every claim out there that is made, backed up with evidence or not?
                  join to post
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

                    Fri, June 29, 2007 - 1:14 PM
                    No, I also want to drown it in a bathtub,
                    but, first, I want to find out what I'm drowning,
                    and see first just what it's been up to...

                    Bailiff, read the list of possible indictments
                    against these fallen angels that run the
                    oligarchy, would you please?
                    join to post
                    • Unsu...
                       

                      Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

                      Fri, June 29, 2007 - 1:17 PM
                      I'm not interested in the goobermints money,
                      I'm interested in the people's money.
                      Give it back so they can go buy some
                      truncheons to hunt down those fuckers
                      and beat them to death! Shoot first and
                      ask the dead neocons questions later!
                      join to post
                      • Jeff
                        Jeff
                        offline 225

                        Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

                        Fri, June 29, 2007 - 1:20 PM
                        <<I'm not interested in the goobermints money,
                        I'm interested in the people's money.


                        The govts money IS the peoples money.
                        join to post
                        • Unsu...
                           

                          Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

                          Fri, June 29, 2007 - 1:27 PM
                          What is the constitutional definition of income?
                          Why are we taxed on our labor?

                          Is that not somewhat close to serfdom?

                          Why cannot we own land without paying a
                          yearly stipend to the federal government?
                          Do we merely lease it until the unpaid backtaxes
                          cause the goobermint to seize it.

                          Which is more important: real land that is yours
                          and your descendants, in perpetuity, or
                          some worthless trash paper money, that, because
                          you don't slavishly circulate it to the demonic
                          desires of the neocons, causes your REAL ESTATE
                          to fall into their hands. Nuff said, they will pay for their crimes.
                          They will be seen for what they are.
                          They will eventually recognize it themselves.
                          Then they will know they are but pawns,
                          and have condemned their own lives
                          to the useless pit of material avarice.
                          join to post
                          • Jeff
                            Jeff
                            offline 225

                            Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

                            Fri, June 29, 2007 - 1:49 PM
                            <<What is the constitutional definition of income?

                            Wages are income, which is generally defined as the money that is received as a result of the normal business activities of an individual or a business.

                            <<Why are we taxed on our labor?

                            While we both can agree that we are in oppsition to our tax dollars being used for misadventures like the Iraq war. And I do find the possibility of a national sales tax as something that should be explored. But the common good of society is improved because of education, cleaning up of the environment, the interstate highways system...... and even the developoment of the internet which YOU are using right now....

                            <<Is that not somewhat close to serfdom?

                            No, Serfs were in a condition of bondage and enforced labor and were the lowest social class in society in servitude to nobility and church royalty, their life was extremely strenuous. Not so for most twinky eating, plumped up, couch potato Americans. And although I think our tax system favors corporations and the rich in general, most stratums of American society pay taxes in one form or another. Serfdom was in effect agricultural slavery. Serfs were kept so dirt poor that they would not have been able to afford things like the computer you are currently using if the system was in place in our modern times.

                            In my county, property taxes pay for local education, I have no problem giving back to society in this way.

                            And in regards to neocons, we have been using $$ for 100s of years before the necons came around, not sure what that really has to do with it. MANY people are capitalists, it does not = Neocon. Maybe you should look up what Neocon actually means, you are just slinging it around because it is a buzzword.
                            join to post
                            • Catseye
                              Catseye
                              offline 134

                              Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

                              Sat, June 30, 2007 - 9:54 PM
                              <...But the common good of society is improved because of education, cleaning up of the environment, the interstate highways system...... and even the developoment of the internet which YOU are using right now.... >

                              And it would be improved even more w/basic health care.
                              join to post
                              • Unsu...
                                 

                                Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

                                Sun, July 1, 2007 - 12:09 AM
                                Like Jeff has any knowledge or right to question how I have made it, thus far,
                                through the morass of society's ills. Jeff, ever dig ditches for a living?
                                Ever work in a trade? Or do you work in a cushy office, doing useless
                                paperwork for a fake economy? When I go to work, there are 8-10
                                immediate useless bureaucrats who wouldn't make a dime if I, or someone
                                like me, was not willing to do the real work. I've been so angry at times
                                of these corporate shills, I was tempted to kick one over and stand on his back
                                to do my work, instead of using a ladder.
                                join to post
                                • Jeff
                                  Jeff
                                  offline 225

                                  Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

                                  Sun, July 1, 2007 - 7:30 PM
                                  <<Like Jeff has any knowledge or right to question how I have made it, thus far, through the morass of society's ills.

                                  This is America and I have the right to question whatever I choose. In particular because you are using technology that tax dollars helped to create.

                                  <<Jeff, ever dig ditches for a living? Ever work in a trade?

                                  Yes sir I have, I dug ditches for a landscaping company for sprinkler systems. I also have bucked hay working on a farm, picking strawberries, shoveling cow shit, picking up litter on the highway for ODOT, i have had my fair shair of manual labor and understand an honest days work. I also grew up in a poor family, my father would not work when he came back from nam, spent all his time in the woods hunting and fishing. And since you can't feed babies elk meat and salmon, my mother busted her back working in the berry fields. If it was not for the safety net that taxes provide, I would not have grown up malnourished.

                                  <<Or do you work in a cushy office, doing useless paperwork for a fake economy?

                                  Now that we have established that I know what real work is, I will tell you what I do now. I took responsability for myself in order to pull myself out of poverty. Tired of digging ditches, I got an education and now manage the drafting department for an environmental consulting and engineering company. Both industry and govt. agencies pay us to clean up contaminated groundwater and soil so that you have less toxins in your water and environment. This means that your tax dollars are going toward the common good so that industry can't pollute unchecked.

                                  Take responsability for yourself, if these schills piss you off, get an education or skill in something that is worthwile. But never forget that you are using the basic infrastructures that tax dollars pay for.

                                  Or do you work in a cushy office, doing useless
                                  paperwork for a fake economy?
                                  join to post

                          • Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

                            Fri, June 29, 2007 - 2:04 PM
                            <Is that not somewhat close to serfdom? >

                            Um...........no. It's called operational income so our country can work.

                            <Why cannot we own land without paying a
                            yearly stipend to the federal government? >

                            Because the taxes make our country work.

                            <Do we merely lease it until the unpaid backtaxes
                            cause the goobermint to seize it. >

                            No. It's called 'laws'. Follow the laws, and there'll be less problems. When in the future the laws become so restrictive that you feel that you are being terrifically unfairly put-upon, you can then revolt. Until then, you can complain, even with your misunderstood comprehension of how our country works.

                            Are you someone's strange uncle, Andrew? You remind me of how a strange uncle would probably appear. As in, 'Uh oh, Strange Uncle Andrew is coming over, be prepared to hear about the 'gooberment' again and again this weekend.'
                            join to post
                            • Unsu...
                               

                              Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

                              Fri, June 29, 2007 - 2:36 PM
                              <It's called operational income so our country can work.>

                              I'll just laugh like DVDBurner would here.

                              HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

                              (because by 'country', you mean 'government'.)
                              join to post
                              • Unsu...
                                 

                                Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

                                Fri, June 29, 2007 - 2:49 PM
                                As for the exchange of true private property for some baubles, a trifle;
                                some beads and trinkets; let us look at the example of the rather huge
                                dam system implemented in India over the last twenty years or so, to see
                                how wasteful and unplanned is the pillaging of the world's natural resources
                                by transnational corporations, resulting in a infrastructure that doesn't even
                                work the way they said it would, and only sends the waters of more remote
                                areas into western cities, so they can use it for their waterparks. Meanwhile,
                                the ancient tribal people are pushed off their land by the rising flood,
                                compensated by,,,,,, a pittance.... to end in starvation, and privation.

                                The True Result of Western Capitalistic Influence.
                                join to post
                              • Jeff
                                Jeff
                                offline 225

                                Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

                                Fri, June 29, 2007 - 3:05 PM
                                You seem to be doing just fine under this so called Serfdom with you computer and all Andrew. You are using the system that our tax dollars helped to create in regards to the internet.
                                join to post
                                • Unsu...
                                   

                                  Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

                                  Fri, June 29, 2007 - 3:13 PM
                                  Yes, please, make a plea to the desires of the ego.

                                  Everything's a privilege, isn't it. Freedumb isn't free, is it?
                                  I see where this line of reasoning is going.
                                  join to post
                                  • Jeff
                                    Jeff
                                    offline 225

                                    Re: Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD :

                                    Fri, June 29, 2007 - 3:21 PM
                                    <<Yes, please, make a plea to the desires of the ego

                                    Ego has nothing to do with it, I have been studying meditation for over 20 years and I understand the concept of ego intimately.

                                    <<Everything's a privilege, isn't it.

                                    You need to elaborate more, you are not making much sense. What does that fact that you are using the systems our tax dollars created have to do with either ego or privilege? And freedom has nothing to do with the basics of infrastructure and how it is paid for. YOU have the freedom to use that system or not, that is your choice.
                                    join to post
  • Kill...
    Killa Cham
    offline 66

    Who benefits

    Sun, July 1, 2007 - 11:43 PM
    Muslims do not benefit from the actions of Al Queda. This is the whole joke. The people who have benefited have been Israel, and Bush-Co
    join to post
    • Harmen
      Harmen
      offline 110

      Re: Who benefits

      Tue, July 3, 2007 - 3:02 AM
      "Muslims do not benefit from the actions of Al Queda. This is the whole joke. The people who have benefited have been Israel, and Bush-Co"

      And that is a fact..
      join to post
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Who benefits

        Tue, July 3, 2007 - 8:57 PM
        No, Jeff, I meant for the foundations of houses.
        But that is immaterial. What I was trying to get at,
        is the fact that the government has ALWAYS taken
        from me, and given ABSOLUTELY nothing in return.
        Like the Mafia would. I could spell out my past, but,
        in all honesty, if you can't see it already, you never
        would. You'll notice, also, that I never contested that
        properly spent funds on infrastructure was what I was
        saying was wrong, in whatever sense. Misidentifying
        the good public works, which must amount to what,
        maybe 3% of our taxes put in, does not excuse the
        massive waste, cronyism, nepotism, and warmongering
        of our illustrious leaders. Republic used to mean something.

        And I have nothing against you. Just start looking around with your eyes.
        The pain and torture caused by western democracies crushing
        desire to commodify everything, even(most especially!) humans themselves,
        can only lead to the worst sort of societal endgame.
        If Bush is religious, I can't see how he can't know that
        he is damning himself to hell with his actions.
        Therefore, his religious squawkings must just be to manipulate the masses.
        join to post
        • Jeff
          Jeff
          offline 225

          Re: Who benefits

          Tue, July 3, 2007 - 9:46 PM
          <<What I was trying to get at,
          is the fact that the government has ALWAYS taken
          from me, and given ABSOLUTELY nothing in return.

          False. Once again, you are currently using technology that govt. $$ helped to create. You also got an education through highschool (I assume).... You also use govt. roads and utilities.

          <<you never
          would. You'll notice, also, that I never contested that
          properly spent funds on infrastructure was what I was
          saying was wrong, in whatever sense.

          Then you need to be more explicite.

          <<does not excuse the
          massive waste, cronyism, nepotism, and warmongering
          of our illustrious leaders.

          That is another issue entirely and is an area we can agree on. You are speaking of corruption, yet sounded like you wanted to abolish taxes.
          join to post
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: Who benefits

            Tue, July 3, 2007 - 10:03 PM
            Wanna go out on a date, lover?
            join to post
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: Who benefits

              Tue, July 3, 2007 - 10:09 PM
              I would like to abolish unrepresentative taxes.
              your use of 'gov't' roads, wires, schools shows
              how indebted to the system you are. These are not
              the 'gov't's' things, THEY ARE OURS!
              I have paid in far more than I have taken out.
              I have worked hard for this society, and received very little.
              Infrastructure can be economical.
              Question is, where is most of the money going?
              join to post
              • Unsu...
                 

                Re: Who benefits

                Tue, July 3, 2007 - 10:12 PM
                Basically, 'gov't' in your usage means
                collecting money for the bankers,
                and laundering it so they can pour it into
                war and their own pockets. And making a living
                off the usury, without ever doing a hard day's work.
                join to post
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: Who benefits

                  Tue, July 3, 2007 - 10:43 PM
                  Jeff, your need to parrot back to me in your own posts
                  what I have written makes you come close to being Prom's twin.
                  join to post
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Jeff
                    Jeff
                    offline 225

                    Re: Who benefits

                    Wed, July 4, 2007 - 12:57 AM
                    <<Jeff, your need to parrot back to me in your own posts
                    what I have written makes you come close to being Prom's twin.

                    You seem to be forgetting what you were claiming, quoting you is a useful reminder.
                    join to post
              • Jeff
                Jeff
                offline 225

                Re: Who benefits

                Wed, July 4, 2007 - 12:55 AM
                I am just responding to your question and accusation. Lets review....

                "Why are we taxed on our labor?
                Is that not somewhat close to serfdom?"

                <<your use of 'gov't' roads, wires, schools shows
                how indebted to the system you are. These are not
                the 'gov't's' things, THEY ARE OURS!

                Who said they are the govts? You asked why we are taxed our our labor and then equated it to serfdom. You use the roads, wires, shools etc. that these taxes on your labor pay for.

                <<Question is, where is most of the money going?

                Most of it goes to federal social programs, 56%, defense is second at 20%
                mwhodges.home.att.net/95budget.gif

                Now that is not to say that all the money is being spent wisely. but again, that is another issue.
                join to post

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