Advertisement
Fallon Derided Petraeus, Opposed the Surge
By Gareth Porter
Inter Press Service
Wednesday 12 September 2007
Washington - In sharp contrast to the lionisation of Gen. David Petraeus by members of the U.S. Congress during his testimony this week, Petraeus's superior, Admiral William Fallon, chief of the Central Command (CENTCOM), derided Petraeus as a sycophant during their first meeting in Baghdad last March, according to Pentagon sources familiar with reports of the meeting.
Fallon told Petraeus that he considered him to be "an ass-kissing little chickenshit" and added, "I hate people like that", the sources say. That remark reportedly came after Petraeus began the meeting by making remarks that Fallon interpreted as trying to ingratiate himself with a superior.
That extraordinarily contentious start of Fallon's mission to Baghdad led to more meetings marked by acute tension between the two commanders. Fallon went on develop his own alternative to Petraeus's recommendation for continued high levels of U.S. troops in Iraq during the summer.
The enmity between the two commanders became public knowledge when the Washington Post reported Sep. 9 on intense conflict within the administration over Iraq. The story quoted a senior official as saying that referring to "bad relations" between them is "the understatement of the century".
Fallon's derision toward Petraeus reflected both the CENTCOM commander's personal distaste for Petraeus's style of operating and their fundamental policy differences over Iraq, according to the sources.
The policy context of Fallon's extraordinarily abrasive treatment of his subordinate was Petraeus's agreement in February to serve as front man for the George W. Bush administration's effort to sell its policy of increasing U.S. troop strength in Iraq to Congress.
In a highly unusual political role for an officer who had not yet taken command of a war, Petraeus was installed in the office of Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, a Republican from Kentucky, in early February just before the Senate debated Bush's troop increase. According to a report in The Washington Post Feb. 7, senators were then approached on the floor and invited to go McConnell's office to hear Petraeus make the case for the surge policy.
Fallon was strongly opposed to Petraeus's role as pitch man for the surge policy in Iraq adopted by Bush in December as putting his own interests ahead of a sound military posture in the Middle East and Southwest Asia - the area for which Fallon's CENTCOM is responsible.
The CENTCOM commander believed the United States should be withdrawing troops from Iraq urgently, largely because he saw greater dangers elsewhere in the region. "He is very focused on Pakistan," said a source familiar with Fallon's thinking, "and trying to maintain a difficult status quo with Iran."
By the time Fallon took command of CENTCOM in March, Pakistan had become the main safe haven for Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda to plan and carry out its worldwide operations, as well as being an extremely unstable state with both nuclear weapons and the world's largest population of Islamic extremists.
Plans for continued high troop levels in Iraq would leave no troops available for other contingencies in the region.
Fallon was reported by the New York Times to have been determined to achieve results "as soon as possible". The notion of a long war, in contrast, seemed to connote an extended conflict in which Iraq was but a chapter.
Fallon also expressed great scepticism about the basic assumption underlying the surge strategy, which was that it could pave the way for political reconciliation in Iraq. In the lead story Sep. 9, The Washington Post quoted a "senior administration official" as saying that Fallon had been "saying from Day One, 'This isn't working.' "
One of Fallon's first moves upon taking command of CENTCOM was to order his subordinates to avoid the term "long war" - a phrase Bush and Secretary of Defence Robert M. Gates had used to describe the fight against terrorism.
Fallon was signaling his unhappiness with the policy of U.S. occupation of Iraq for an indeterminate period. Military sources explained that Fallon was concerned that the concept of a long war would alienate Middle East publics by suggesting that U.S. troops would remain in the region indefinitely.
During the summer, according to the Post Sep. 9 report, Fallon began to develop his own plans for redefine the U.S. mission in Iraq, including a plan for withdrawal of three-quarters of the U.S. troop strength by the end of 2009.
The conflict between Fallon and Petraeus over Iraq came to a head in early September. According to the Post story, Fallon expressed views on Iraq that were sharply at odds with those of Petraeus in a three-way conversation with Bush on Iraq the previous weekend. Petraeus argued for keeping as many troops in Iraq for as long as possible to cement any security progress, but Fallon argued that a strategic withdrawal from Iraq was necessary to have sufficient forces to deal with other potential threats in the region.
Fallon's presentation to Bush of the case against Petraeus's recommendation for keeping troop levels in Iraq at the highest possible level just before Petraeus was to go public with his recommendations was another sign that Petraeus's role as chief spokesperson for the surge policy has created a deep rift between him and the nation's highest military leaders. Bush presumably would not have chosen to invite an opponent of the surge policy to make such a presentation without lobbying by the top brass.
Fallon had a "visceral distaste" for what he regarded as Petraeus's sycophantic behaviour in general, which had deeper institutional roots, according to a military source familiar with his thinking.
Fallon is a veteran of 35 years in the Navy, operating in an institutional culture in which an officer is expected to make enemies in the process of advancement. "If you are Navy captain and don't have two or three enemies, you're not doing your job," says the source.
Fallon acquired a reputation for a willingness to stand up to powerful figures during his tenure as commander in chief of the Pacific Command from February 2005 to March 2007. He pushed hard for a conciliatory line toward and China, which put him in conflict with senior military and civilian officials with a vested interest in pointing to China as a future rival and threat.
He demonstrated his independence from the White House when he refused in February to go along with a proposal to send a third naval carrier task force to the Persian Gulf, as reported by IPS in May. Fallon questioned the military necessity for the move, which would have signaled to Iran a readiness to go to war. Fallon also privately vowed that there would be no war against Iran on his watch, implying that he would quit rather than accept such a policy.
A crucial element of Petraeus's path of advancement in the Army, on the other hand, was through serving as an aide to senior generals. He was assistant executive officer to the Army Chief of Staff, Gen. Carl Vuono, and later executive assistant to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Gen. Henry Shelton. His experience taught him that cultivating senior officers is the key to success.
The contrasting styles of the two men converged with their conflict over Iraq to produce one of the most intense clashes between U.S. military leaders in recent history.
---------
Gareth Porter is an historian and national security policy analyst. His latest book, "Perils of Dominance: Imbalance of Power and the Road to War in Vietnam", was published in June 2005.
By Gareth Porter
Inter Press Service
Wednesday 12 September 2007
Washington - In sharp contrast to the lionisation of Gen. David Petraeus by members of the U.S. Congress during his testimony this week, Petraeus's superior, Admiral William Fallon, chief of the Central Command (CENTCOM), derided Petraeus as a sycophant during their first meeting in Baghdad last March, according to Pentagon sources familiar with reports of the meeting.
Fallon told Petraeus that he considered him to be "an ass-kissing little chickenshit" and added, "I hate people like that", the sources say. That remark reportedly came after Petraeus began the meeting by making remarks that Fallon interpreted as trying to ingratiate himself with a superior.
That extraordinarily contentious start of Fallon's mission to Baghdad led to more meetings marked by acute tension between the two commanders. Fallon went on develop his own alternative to Petraeus's recommendation for continued high levels of U.S. troops in Iraq during the summer.
The enmity between the two commanders became public knowledge when the Washington Post reported Sep. 9 on intense conflict within the administration over Iraq. The story quoted a senior official as saying that referring to "bad relations" between them is "the understatement of the century".
Fallon's derision toward Petraeus reflected both the CENTCOM commander's personal distaste for Petraeus's style of operating and their fundamental policy differences over Iraq, according to the sources.
The policy context of Fallon's extraordinarily abrasive treatment of his subordinate was Petraeus's agreement in February to serve as front man for the George W. Bush administration's effort to sell its policy of increasing U.S. troop strength in Iraq to Congress.
In a highly unusual political role for an officer who had not yet taken command of a war, Petraeus was installed in the office of Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, a Republican from Kentucky, in early February just before the Senate debated Bush's troop increase. According to a report in The Washington Post Feb. 7, senators were then approached on the floor and invited to go McConnell's office to hear Petraeus make the case for the surge policy.
Fallon was strongly opposed to Petraeus's role as pitch man for the surge policy in Iraq adopted by Bush in December as putting his own interests ahead of a sound military posture in the Middle East and Southwest Asia - the area for which Fallon's CENTCOM is responsible.
The CENTCOM commander believed the United States should be withdrawing troops from Iraq urgently, largely because he saw greater dangers elsewhere in the region. "He is very focused on Pakistan," said a source familiar with Fallon's thinking, "and trying to maintain a difficult status quo with Iran."
By the time Fallon took command of CENTCOM in March, Pakistan had become the main safe haven for Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda to plan and carry out its worldwide operations, as well as being an extremely unstable state with both nuclear weapons and the world's largest population of Islamic extremists.
Plans for continued high troop levels in Iraq would leave no troops available for other contingencies in the region.
Fallon was reported by the New York Times to have been determined to achieve results "as soon as possible". The notion of a long war, in contrast, seemed to connote an extended conflict in which Iraq was but a chapter.
Fallon also expressed great scepticism about the basic assumption underlying the surge strategy, which was that it could pave the way for political reconciliation in Iraq. In the lead story Sep. 9, The Washington Post quoted a "senior administration official" as saying that Fallon had been "saying from Day One, 'This isn't working.' "
One of Fallon's first moves upon taking command of CENTCOM was to order his subordinates to avoid the term "long war" - a phrase Bush and Secretary of Defence Robert M. Gates had used to describe the fight against terrorism.
Fallon was signaling his unhappiness with the policy of U.S. occupation of Iraq for an indeterminate period. Military sources explained that Fallon was concerned that the concept of a long war would alienate Middle East publics by suggesting that U.S. troops would remain in the region indefinitely.
During the summer, according to the Post Sep. 9 report, Fallon began to develop his own plans for redefine the U.S. mission in Iraq, including a plan for withdrawal of three-quarters of the U.S. troop strength by the end of 2009.
The conflict between Fallon and Petraeus over Iraq came to a head in early September. According to the Post story, Fallon expressed views on Iraq that were sharply at odds with those of Petraeus in a three-way conversation with Bush on Iraq the previous weekend. Petraeus argued for keeping as many troops in Iraq for as long as possible to cement any security progress, but Fallon argued that a strategic withdrawal from Iraq was necessary to have sufficient forces to deal with other potential threats in the region.
Fallon's presentation to Bush of the case against Petraeus's recommendation for keeping troop levels in Iraq at the highest possible level just before Petraeus was to go public with his recommendations was another sign that Petraeus's role as chief spokesperson for the surge policy has created a deep rift between him and the nation's highest military leaders. Bush presumably would not have chosen to invite an opponent of the surge policy to make such a presentation without lobbying by the top brass.
Fallon had a "visceral distaste" for what he regarded as Petraeus's sycophantic behaviour in general, which had deeper institutional roots, according to a military source familiar with his thinking.
Fallon is a veteran of 35 years in the Navy, operating in an institutional culture in which an officer is expected to make enemies in the process of advancement. "If you are Navy captain and don't have two or three enemies, you're not doing your job," says the source.
Fallon acquired a reputation for a willingness to stand up to powerful figures during his tenure as commander in chief of the Pacific Command from February 2005 to March 2007. He pushed hard for a conciliatory line toward and China, which put him in conflict with senior military and civilian officials with a vested interest in pointing to China as a future rival and threat.
He demonstrated his independence from the White House when he refused in February to go along with a proposal to send a third naval carrier task force to the Persian Gulf, as reported by IPS in May. Fallon questioned the military necessity for the move, which would have signaled to Iran a readiness to go to war. Fallon also privately vowed that there would be no war against Iran on his watch, implying that he would quit rather than accept such a policy.
A crucial element of Petraeus's path of advancement in the Army, on the other hand, was through serving as an aide to senior generals. He was assistant executive officer to the Army Chief of Staff, Gen. Carl Vuono, and later executive assistant to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Gen. Henry Shelton. His experience taught him that cultivating senior officers is the key to success.
The contrasting styles of the two men converged with their conflict over Iraq to produce one of the most intense clashes between U.S. military leaders in recent history.
---------
Gareth Porter is an historian and national security policy analyst. His latest book, "Perils of Dominance: Imbalance of Power and the Road to War in Vietnam", was published in June 2005.
Advertisement
Advertisement
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 10:04 AMyep...
kiss enough butt
and go on up the corporate ladder
its the new mantra in ceo heaven -
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 5:11 PMAdmiral William Fallon hates America.
-
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 10:13 AMForeign Policy magazine has called the surge a failure
www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php
The index’s experts don’t think so. More than half say the surge is having a negative impact on U.S. national security, up 22 percentage points from just six months ago. This sentiment was shared across party lines, with 64 percent of conservative experts saying the surge is having either a negative impact or no impact at all. When the experts were asked to grade the government’s handling of the Iraq war, the news was even worse. They gave the overall effort in Iraq an average point score of just 2.9 on a 10-point scale. The government’s public diplomacy record was the only policy that scored lower. -
-
what is a surge nowadays?
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 10:24 AMDoes not the term surge mean a short bust of energy or in physics a rate of change of acceleration. So how long can we have a surge without calling it a buildup. -
-
Re: what is a surge nowadays?
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 10:51 AM<<So how long can we have a surge without calling it a buildup.>>
Or a fubar. -
-
Re: what is a surge nowadays?
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 10:57 AMHow about a quagmire! -
-
Re: what is a surge nowadays?
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 9:34 PMI'll see your quagmire and raise you a fustercluck.
-
-
-
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 11:44 AMThank you very much for that Brent. I'm a big believer in relevant experts, and have been wanting some sense of what foreign policy experts in general think about Iraq. That's very helpful. That was a large sample of experts.
So a bipartisan 68% favor redeployment over 18 months? Good enough for me.
But I didn't see them asking them if such withdrawal would result in an explosion in civil war. Anyone know what experts in general think about that?
I apologize. I supported the war on Iraq. I was wrong. -
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 2:33 PMRon, what lessons are you drawing from being wrong about this? How will you adjust your approach to analyzing US foreign policy based on this new information? -
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 2:36 PMI will hesitate in supporting the idea in supporting an invasion just to remove a bad guy, even if that bad guy may be responsible for a huge amount of evil. Law of unintended consequences. -
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 2:37 PMSo, are you joining those of us who are actively opposing an attack on Iran? -
-
Unsu...
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 3:10 PMWhat's terrifying is the truth.
If you go by Wolfowitz's bastardized version of Straussian theory, the occupation is a success: It is the personification of The Noble Lie, where the elites tell us dumbass 'wicked' rabble whatever and then go along with their scred duty of democratizing the world in our image.
Sure, Iraq is taking time, but, you know, from the POV of centuries, we're doing great! (Where do you think Bush's comment about our losses there being a mere "comma" in historical perspective came from?)
Wolfowitz, Perle, Rumsfeld--they didn't plan for the occupation because they were idiots--they didn't plan for the occupation because, being lunatic utopian xenophobes, they really, really believed that the simple contact of American goodness would have them abandoning 4,000 years of internecine warfare and hared and grudges in weeks, maybe months.
So Iran? That's, like, totally different! And, in the fullness of time, or Richard Perle's near-erotic gushing about "fifty years of gloeious war!" and with us idiot masses mollified with more Noble Lies, we'll be victorious.
If not, s'okay: the elites will be enriched and the process continued.
It really seems the only person who pays attention to neocon theory are those who are opposed to it, ie, sane.
-
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 10:58 PM<<If you go by Wolfowitz's bastardized version of Straussian theory, the occupation is a success: It is the personification of The Noble Lie, where the elites tell us dumbass 'wicked' rabble whatever and then go along with their scred duty of democratizing the world in our image. >>
Straussian theory is a perverse amalgam of Plato and Machiavelli which has nothing to do with democracy. Elitism (the philosopher king) comes from Plato. The lie from Machiavelli. The result: the worst of possible polities: The elite, lying dumbshit king.
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 11:41 AM> Wolfowitz, Perle, Rumsfeld--they didn't plan for the occupation because they were idiots--they didn't plan for the occupation because, being lunatic utopian xenophobes, they really, really believed that the simple contact of American goodness would have them abandoning 4,000 years of internecine warfare and hared and grudges in weeks, maybe months.
You know, for years I have been calling the Peenie-knackers the Epitome of Evil, etc. etc. But your contention that they are actually badly-informed starry-eyed Utopian Idealists is, in a way, even more frightening.
That explains why they bought all the bullshit from Chalabi and his henchthings. They *WANTED* to believe it! Brrr ...
That's why they said all that starry-eyed Rik-like mumbo-jumbo about Creating a New Reality With Their Thoughts.
That's why Richard Perle (I think) said, "Some day they will write great songs about us!" As if.
-
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 5:03 PMWell, certainly an invasion of Iran. The serious problems with this war is with invasion. We've been effective with limited military involvement to strategic bombing.
But having said that, I probably would oppose direct attacks at this time, unless in reaction to attacks from Iran. -
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 5:08 PMHow do we define reaction? the military is running around yelling about Iranian explosives in Iraq (very little or no proof of that, of course). The Navy has ships near Iranian wars. Covert ops are apparently underway inside Iran. The US is building a big base on the Iranian border. Seems like we're inching up next to them, plenty of opportunity for an "incident". -
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 12:40 PM"How do we define reaction? the military is running around yelling about Iranian explosives in Iraq (very little or no proof of that, of course). The Navy has ships near Iranian wars. Covert ops are apparently underway inside Iran. The US is building a big base on the Iranian border. Seems like we're inching up next to them, plenty of opportunity for an "incident"."
Good points and good, difficult question. I wouldn't want Americans to be killed by Iranians and prohibited from fighting back, but then again I don't want a Gulf of Tonkin rationalization for war. I guess the best thing to do is demand full disclosure of all intel from the executive branch regarding any claims of Iranian involvement, but check with independent sources as well. Unfortunately, that didn't seem to stop the Iraq invasion, so again, tough question. -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 1:12 PMThe real answer is we need to elect an administration not populated by neocons, who have proven to be just incredibly dishonest and have an insatiable appetite for war. That means Giuliani can't win. The Democrats aren't very good but right now the GOP foreign policy wing (outside of a few apostates like Scowcroft and Ron Paul) is infested with neocons at the moment.
Honestly it feels like we're living in a transition from Republic to Empire, similar to what the Romans went through. -
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 7:07 PM> The Democrats aren't very good but right now the GOP foreign policy wing (outside of a few apostates like Scowcroft and Ron Paul) is infested with neocons at the moment.
Bill Richardson seems to be a Democrat with good fp experience. As the Puppy points out, though, he was a Kissinger associate.
-
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 1:44 PMwww.npr.org/templates/story/story.php
They keep showing the public Iranian markings on weapons and people keep blowing it off.
Why~?
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 11:35 AM> But I didn't see them asking them if such withdrawal would result in an explosion in civil war. Anyone know what experts in general think about that?
> I apologize. I supported the war on Iraq. I was wrong.
Dizzam.
Thank you for that, Ron.
You just rose many points in my estimation, and not so much just because you agree with me now, but more because you used that excellent reasoning ability to weigh actual facts and revamp your conclusion. -
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 12:36 PMAh shucks Mary :-)
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 3:47 PM<> I apologize. I supported the war on Iraq. I was wrong. >
Sheeit. It should not be impressive or interesting even when someone shows integrity, but.......nice.
-
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 4:12 PM"I apologize. I supported the war on Iraq. I was wrong."
Wow Ron. Thanks for that I really admire that you can do this. Not easy.
Not as a swipe at you- but there was an interesting peice in the Nation...asking why the MSM couldn't go further and say the anti-war movement, Chomsky and the rest of the left was RIGHT in their predictions (exaclty what we have now) and their prinicipled opposition...
Not holding my breath.
-
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 5:38 PMWell, I still don't buy certain predictions from the left, such as that we went there to take their oil. I don't see much of their oil coming to us. And I really don't pay much attention to Chomsky.
-
-
-
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 11:27 AMThis is so beautiful. When I first saw the subject heading I was sure it was too good to be true!
Fallon just went up in my estimation. Military officers almost by definition have to be scum - unlike actual soldiers. -
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 11:37 AMSoldiers may not be scum but they are killers.
Anyway this is no surprise. Bush loves ass-kissers. -
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 2:01 PM>> Soldiers may not be scum but they are killers. <<
I've known lots of soliders. Calling them "killers" is, of course, technically correct - and also completley redundant. Howard Zinn was a soldier - hell, he was a fucking bombadier. -
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 2:06 PM<<I've known lots of soliders. Calling them "killers" is, of course, technically correct - and also completley redundant. Howard Zinn was a soldier - hell, he was a fucking bombadier.>>
Yeah. What would the soldier-haters have felt living in London during the Nazi blitz? Would they seek appeasement? Roll over and let the Germans take over?
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 2:28 PMIt may be "redundant" but its true nonetheless. Lets live in reality shall we.
-
-
-
-
I think this is bullshit~!!
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 3:51 PM*****************Fallon told Petraeus that he considered him to be "an ass-kissing little chickenshit" and added, "I hate people like that", the sources say. That remark reportedly came after Petraeus began the meeting by making remarks that Fallon interpreted as trying to ingratiate himself with a superior. ***************
something like that absolutely requires corroboration. People don't get to be Generals and Admirals by talking like that.
Usually the assholes are the Majors and Colonels. Because they want to be Generals. -
-
Re: I think this is bullshit~!!
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 4:03 PM>People don't get to be Generals and Admirals by talking like that.
LMFAO -
-
Re: I think this is bullshit~!!
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 4:25 PM**********LMFAO****************
Like you'd know. Ha Ha
And you don't have an ass. You are tin can. -
-
Re: I think this is bullshit~!!
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 4:31 PMCliff I know you have a picture of that dreamy Petraeus up on your bedroom wall. I know it hurts to hear Admiral Fallon thinks he's an ass-kisser. Man up. This has been published by legit news sources: www.atimes.com/atimes/Mid...14Ak02.html . Unless they have incorrect info, its true.
The idea that top generals don't curse is humorous. -
-
Re: I think this is bullshit~!!
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 5:32 AM
************This has been published by legit news sources: ***********
However legit Asia Times ( or any news entity) may be:
A) they are not perfect
and
B) this would be something that would be BANNER news so every one was in a hurry to get it out
and
C)they didn't quote a reliable source
||||||||||||||||||
according to Pentagon sources familiar with reports of the meeting.
|||||||||||||||||||||||
That is not a reliable source. Especially not for the sort of language they claim was used.
Mind you it's not that I think that top military people don't have rough language. I know two majors and a colonel personally and they indeed have gutter mouths.
However, I think that top military brass doesn't get to the top by being loose with language of any sort in front of people who might repeat it - especially to the press.
-
-
Re: I think this is bullshit~!!
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 5:35 AMWho says he is trying to get to the top? He could simply be speaking honestly. -
-
Re: I think this is bullshit~!!
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 9:08 AMhe's ALREADY at the top.
-
-
-
-
-
-
Re: I think this is bullshit~!!
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 5:04 PM"People don't get to be Generals and Admirals by talking like that. "
You mean like George Patton and Douglas MacArthur? -
-
Re: I think this is bullshit~!!
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 5:33 AM***********You mean like George Patton and Douglas MacArthur?*************
Another time another era - - you know that as well as I. -
-
Re: I think this is bullshit~!!
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 9:09 AMcliff, just admit you're wrong on this one.
-
Re: I think this is bullshit~!!
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 11:12 AMResponsible people don't say things like, "We're kicking ass in Iraq?" It's in bad taste?
-
-
Re: I think this is bullshit~!!
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 7:19 AM>> You mean like George Patton and Douglas MacArthur <<
I had to think of Patton myself when I read about Fallon saying this. Imagine what Patton would say if he were in the military today? He'd be absolutely ape-shit - he'd probably fucking kill Petreus. He probably would have already killed Rumsfeld.
The fact is that even if Fallon really did say this (and it is just too good not to believe) - it is Fallon who is "chicken-shit" for not saying is openly. -
-
Re: I think this is bullshit~!!
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 9:10 AMhow is he chickenshit? what, he's supposed to call up CNN and give a press conference announcing petraeus is an asskisser? thats absurd. fallon doesn't like petraeus and apparently its a well known fact in the military. he hasn't hidden it.
note that fallon is known to be against bush initiatives in general, wanting more troops out of iraq quicker, he stopped them from using the term "long war" etc. basically he's part of the reality-based community.
-
-
-
Re: I think this is bullshit~!!
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 11:49 AM> People don't get to be Generals and Admirals by talking like that.
HAHAAHAAHAAHAHAAHAAHAAHAAAA!!!
You were never *in* the service, were you?
Being of the wrong gender, opposed to the War du Jour of the time. and even if I'd supported that war, not interested in being a typist or a nurse, neither was I.
But I did work for quite a few years in the IT department of the Navy Relief Society, in the headquarters, where the four Sea Services officers who ran the thing all had their offices. Those were the toughest, most opinionated, most profane, most politically incorrect, most thoroughly *honorable* old coots it's ever been my pleasure to know.
Trust me, they were *NOT* shy about expressing opinions, with just this level of vehemence and style of language.
True, people don't get to be President and CEO of Amalgamated Horseshit by talking like that, but back in the day, military people were expected to be steely; Presidents and CEOs in private industry were expected to be smooth-talking Machiavellian weasel-wording pieces of shit. In folks like Petraeus, yes, those boundaries have blended.
But not for old school officers.
Ya know, I've *always* wanted to know what Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf thought of this misbegotten "adventure" in Iraq. Funny how we haven't heard Word One from him in six years, innit?? I'll bet that's because his response would neither be media-friendly for the virgin-eared, nor especially helpful to the fortunes of BushCheneyCo.
-
Re: I think this is bullshit~!!
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 4:13 PM"People don't get to be Generals and Admirals by talking like that. "
HAHAHAHA
yeah right - they all sound like Emily Post.
(jesus wept!)
-
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 4:54 PMNavy men are different from Army men: If the Army gets licked, they can retreat a few miles and issue a press release about a "planned tactical withdrawal to prepared positions." If the Navy is defeated, their ship sinks to the bottom of the ocean, probably taking most of the crew with it, and there is no way to call that a victory . . .
The difference between the services was personified in WW2: Gen. Douglas ("Dugout Doug") MacArthur fought a war of press releases, taking credit for other people's victories and blaming others for his failures. He wasted thousands of lives in a pointless 1945 campaign to retake the Philippines, thus redeeming his personal honor for having lost them to a smaller Japanese force. Adm. Nimitz, faced with superior Japanese naval power, developed an innovative "island hopping" strategy which was economical with resources and with human lives.
MacArthur, who had opposed Nimitz's strategy, later claimed it as his own idea, after it had proved successful. He celebrated the end of the war by hanging the generals who had defeated him. By way of contrast, Nimitz wrote a letter on behalf of the German Adm. Doenitz, on trial for his life at Nuremberg, pointing out that the U.S. Navy had pursued similar policies to those which were charged to Doenitz as war crimes. This may have saved Doenitz from being unfairly hanged.
My take on Petraeus's testimony before the House:
tribes.tribe.net/political...0e4574f991
-
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 5:05 PMVery informative Forrest
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 5:05 PMSo from what you're saying, Army are fairly disconnected from reality. From what I've heard, Air Force are the worst, totally out of it. And Navy may be the best, since they face catastrophic consequences of not paying attention to reality. Where would the Marines sit on this little list?
William S. Lind writes about this stuff a lot. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 6:59 PMListening to Bush address the nation tonight, he failed to mention Pakistan. I find this interesting and troubling. He did mention Afghanistan and Iran, the administration wants more troops in Iraq because they have thier eyes set on Iran... I read today that one of the missles launched against the green zone yesterday was from Iran, we will see more and more of this, the ramping up of propaganda against Iran. It is fact that the majority of foriegn fighters and $, and weapons are filtering in through Saudi Arabia, but no mention of this by the administration or mainstream media. If we are going after *Alkiduh*, why are we not addressing the situation in Pakistan<> DUH? The agenda for the region has nothing to do with elemenating terror at all, its an agenda of gaining control of resources, Thier agenda is insighting and inflamming terror, which is what they want! Its gives them the ability to keep pushing ahead under the illusion that they are fighting terror... And when did Ambassadors become military policy experts?
Navy command is against our present strategy in the region, the Army has succommed to the administrations arm twisting, The Marines like good Marines do as they are told, the Air Force is pushing to expand the conflict by taking it to Iran in a big way, they have all kinds of shiney bombs that they are just dying to drop, and feel they can carpet bomb Iran into submission. The whole situtation is a cluster fuck! -
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 11:31 AM>>Navy command is against our present strategy in the region . . .
The Navy has a global perspective. Gen. Petraeus stares fixedly on the map of Iraq, Adm. Fallon has a world map to deal with. From a global-strategic point of view, it makes no sense to concentrate such huge resources for a long time in one place; you need to keep reserves available, in case war breaks out somewhere in Asia, for example. And from a naval point of view, Iraq, with its single seaport, doesn't appear to be a strategically vital area . . . so, an officer who panders to politicians, who are pursuing a war for domestic political reasons, is betraying the responsibilities he has been entrusted with . . .
-
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 8:41 PM>>So from what you're saying, Army are fairly disconnected from reality.
The Army is not disconnected from reality, but it is accustomed to dealing with the "fog of war." The next village they come to could be crawling with hostiles, or it could be deserted. Uncertainty is part of warfare, and there is always a tendency to resolve it with some "reconnaissance by fire" on the theory that one should "never send a man where you can send a bullet." When in doubt, take it out. During the Vietnam War, any dead civilian was automatically counted as an enemy.
Something similar happened early in the Iraq War: there was a lot of needless killing, "poor fire discipline," as they call it. Marines criticized the Army for the overkill, but when they got their turn at the plate, they behaved much the same way. Diplomacy is not a military skill, and we are lucky to have a general who is any good at it.
Intelligence is a tricky business, as is post-battle assessment: You almost always have to deal with false information and contradictory reports. History is full of battles both sides claim to have won.
The Navy doesn't work that way. They either know where the enemy is, or they don't. It's no good shooting up an empty ocean. And you can't put a positive "spin" on a sunken ship.
If you give the Army shoddy equipment and shortages, they'll grumble some and carry on. If a ship has poor equipment and not enough fuel, it won't be leaving port . . . or else will cease to function somewhere in the tractless ocean.
If an Army officer is obviously incompetent, the soldiers will grouse and then ask the top NCO what to do. (You see this happening a lot, for example, in "Band of Brothers.") If a naval commander is clueless, then his whole ship is too. You can't run a ship with multiple captains; you either say "Aye, aye, sir!" or mutiny. The captain runs a "tight ship" because that's the only way to do it.
All this ads up to there being considerably less tolerance for ambiguity in the Navy.
-
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 5:37 AM************Navy men are different from Army me***************
My military friends tell me that the Navy is the most repressive branch of the service.
Which, given that they go to combat either by surface ship or sub, might make perfect sense. -
-
Re: Adm. Fallon calls Petraeus an "ass-kissing little chickenshit"
Sat, September 15, 2007 - 2:40 AMWhat you call "repressive" is usually referred to in the military as "discipline."
It is certainly true that the operation of a combat vessel requires an extraordinary degree of discipline: The authority of a captain at sea is absolute. However, this leads to a strange corollary: Since the authority of a captain is absolute, the authority of his superiors is limited.
It is the captain who is ultimately responsible for his ship. There have been cases where captains were courtmartialed for obeying orders which caused their vessels to run aground . . . "obeying orders" was not accepted as an excuse, they should have disobeyed . . .
-
-
-
I keep checking this thread
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 12:57 PMLooking to see if there is any corroboration at all to the story.
So far nuthin. -
-
Re: I keep checking this thread
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 1:14 PMYou actually think Fallon is going to corroborate it?
He sure didn't issue a statement saying it was wrong, though. -
-
Re: I keep checking this thread
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 2:06 PM************You actually think Fallon is going to corroborate it?
He sure didn't issue a statement saying it was wrong, though.*************
I doubt he will address it unless he is forced to. However, un-named sources (which what this is based on) is a terrible, terrible source.
Claiming to have a quote like that absolutely requires corroboration. -
-
Re: I keep checking this thread
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 2:15 PMEither way, Petraeus is a lying sack of shit whose report to Congress (a) he refused to give under oath and (b) is directly contradicted by the GAO and outside reports.
General Betray Us.
-
-
-
Re: I keep checking this thread
Sat, September 15, 2007 - 2:44 AMThe polite discussion in the White House Situation Room a week ago masked a sharper clash over the U.S. venture in Iraq, one that has been building since Fallon, chief of the U.S. Central Command, which oversees Middle East operations, sent a rear admiral to Baghdad this summer to gather information. Soon afterward, officials said, Fallon began developing plans to redefine the U.S. mission and radically draw down troops.
One of those plans, according to a Centcom officer, involved slashing U.S. combat forces in Iraq by three-quarters by 2010. In an interview, Fallon disputed that description but declined to offer details. Nonetheless, his efforts offended Petraeus's team, which saw them as unwelcome intrusion on their own long-term planning. The profoundly different views of the U.S. role in Iraq only exacerbated the schism between the two men.
"Bad relations?" said a senior civilian official with a laugh. "That's the understatement of the century. . . . If you think Armageddon was a riot, that's one way of looking at it."
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...pf.html
-
-
Re: I keep checking this thread
Sat, September 15, 2007 - 10:18 AMso now the facts of the surge results are coming out
whatdaya left with
syncophantic butt kissing lying weasels...... get it yet Raaaawwwwnnnn
all of em
thats why we want an independent 911 investigation
as far as your "admission" now....daa the war was wrong"
what a shocker......how man of you to step out into the light and proclaim your conversion
geeeeee what changed your mind>?
that everyone in the world who wants to be given the minimum of common sense already knew several years back.....
pull your head out
-
-