Who am I talking to, Al Bundy?
Do you have your hand in your pants?

That's it, get down in the arena yourself, Senator...

"oh please. the discourse is dominated by blog/News junkies that do nothing more than regurgitate other people's words."

I agree. I hate that crap. Unless it really is to the point, or has some real quirks to talk about or socially negotiate,
I don't find it much worth my while. Why read some long post served up by someone who can't summon the
thoughtful words to defend it? Besides, my OP implies I highly dislike how that is all that ever goes on around here.
Compared to every other tribe on tribe !* Politics *! is sucking down a huge wad of bandwidth, while only
practising regurgitation. I tend to fall out of the nest before opening my mouth to that momma.

right yoni. like these pairs?
----------------


18. Geothermal Power
a. Geothermal power is energy derived from the heat of the earth.
b. that heat is on average several miles beneath the surface.
c. However, there is a lot of variance in how deep that heat is, and every state has regions where that heat is within a few hundred meters of the surface.
d. Geothermal power like wind power becomes cheaper per materials cost the larger the plant is.
e. Geothermal power has very high potential yields, and is in fact competitive with nuclear power in terms of sheer yield.
f. Geothermal power plants could in theory be built with higher energy yields than nuclear power plants. However, this is not advised or advisable, due to
potential tectonic stresses such high energy plants could create.
g. in the range around 100th or even 1 tenth the yield energy of a nuclear power station, geothermal power stations could be built which would have
virtually no impact on tectonic stresses.
h. Tectonic stress is an important variable. Frequently geothermal power is most accessible along fault lines. However, these should be ignored for
caldera like situations where the system is not contributing or in danger due to tectonic stresses.
i. There are many different ways of configuring a geothermal power station, and only one which this author supports. This is called double circuit closed system geothermal power.
j. double circuit simply means that the water drops on one circuit and the steam comes up on the other.
k. closed circuit means that no water is ever lost in the system, because even the heating element chamber is a well engineered container
L. Geothermal power can in theory meet all of our energy needs
M. of the resources available to us, it does this with the cheapest over all cost, the smallest possible ecological footprint, and the highest level of
permanency.
N. Geothermal power is not a good solution in situations where a small amount of power is needed for small communities or remote estates. It has a high material cost and start up cost to drill the well.
O. Geothermal power is theoretically available almost everywhere on the surface of the earth.
P. current oil wells now go as deep as 7, 8, 9 miles deep.
Q. Enough Geothermal power is accessible within 200 meters depth to meet all of our energy needs.
R. where larger power sources are wanted in places where that heat is deeper, it is still true that geothermal heat in most places is not
deeper than 4 miles.
S. In some rare situations where the crust is thick, geothermal power might be as deep as 20 miles.
Don't drill there, import the energy from 150 miles away somewhere.

19. Hydrogen power;
a. Hydrogen power is an up and coming technology which we can expect to see having good strong applications 20 or 30 years from now.
b. Hydrogen power is very promising, but currently, its still mostly a way to store energy, not create it.
c. The two main exceptions to this are using corrosive rare earth metals to get reactions, and using phased electrical energy to short out the binding force.
d. The problem with the former is that the rare earth metal is itself a form of fuel, and that creating it, and "burning" it with water both create toxic
substances as side effects.
e. the problem with the latter is containment of the field and what happens when organic matter is exposed to high energy bursts of electricity.
f. To the knowledge of this author, water based solutions which continue to use a combustion engine are frauds.
g. When Hydrogen becomes a used technology, it will probably be for very large equipment and uses, such as trains, planes, and large boats

20. Hydrolic or Hydro Electric power.
a. This energy is created by damming a river and using falling water to drive a turbine.
b. this is incredibly damaging to the ecology.
c. Yields are fairly high per materials cost, but, still, hydro electric materials costs are comparable to geothermal power, which doesn't destroy an entire
ecosystem per power plant.
d. Hydro electric power does not exist in anywhere near sufficient quantities to meet all of our energy needs.
e. This author finds hydro-electric power to be a bad idea all the way around, not even as useful as nuclear power.

21. Nuclear power
a. Nuclear power (currently) is derived from using rare earth metals in reactions which turn some fraction of those fuels directly into energy.
b. The radioactive fuels must be mined, and this results currently in the deaths (and serious health problems) of many Miners.
c. Nuclear power currently creates hyper toxic and radio active wastes, which cost money to tend and babysit, and which in an accident
of ignorance 10 thousand years from now could wipe out an entire continents worth of our descendants.
d. Nuclear power is in many senses still a futuristic technology with much promise and much potential.
e. Thus nuclear power should be studied and refined in the laboratory.
f. The focus of such studies should be in finding ways to use non radioactive fuels,
finding ways to create dissipating forms of radiation only, and finding ways to eliminate the problem of wastes.
g. Nuclear power is very high yield, but it has exorbitant costs, especially over the long term.
h. Compared to Geothermal power, nuclear power is extremely expensive, gets more expensive instead of less expensive over time, is extremely
dangerous, and perhaps most importantly, sooner or later we will run out of nuclear fuels, and still be forced to move on to geothermal power.
i. Nuclear power will be most useful for purposes of exploring our solar system and our galaxy.
j. There is no good reason to use nuclear power for domestic use considering the other much better alternatives.

22. Zero point energy
a. Zero point energy is derived from quantum phase state fluctuations where energy is created in contradiction to the "laws" of conservation of mass and
energy.
b. Zero point energy is a futuristic technology which may become realistic within the next 100 years.
c. Final stage proof of concept zero point energy research should be conducted at least as distant from the earth as the oort cloud, due to the unforseeable
nature of potential dangers.
d. In theory, zero point energy could create a self sustaining quantum phase reaction which could create nearly unlimited energy in spaces literally too small to be seen by the naked eye.
e. Early stage research into zero point energy is the entire field of quantum mechanics, specifically Singularities, branes, and quantum holographics.


23. Summary of findings.
a. Geothermal, Solar, Wind, Tidal, and Hydrogen Technologies together provide a clear and easy path towards green and sustainable energy.
b. Geothermal energy specifically is the solution which a realistic green energy infrastructure should be rooted in.
c. It is reasonable to project a total holistic solution in which 80 percent of our energy comes from geothermal, 10 percent from Solar, 5 percent from
Wind, and 5 percent from Tidal.
d. It is also worth mentioning that electric cars are a current and viable technology.
e. This is all of it simply a sumary of known and provable science fact. The only reason why most people don't know all of this is that oil companies
and rich evil jerks have spent billions of dollars to flood the public with propaganda and misinformation.
f. The other strategy of the evil empire jerks is to promote energy resources such as biofuels or nuclear power which create a situation of extreme expense so that they can continue to exploit our need for energy in order to make money. A Geothermally based energy infrastructure would provide
extremely cheap energy (especially over the long term) and this would be the death of the energy industry.
_________________

The opposite of bravery is not cowardice but conformity.

Where is it written that all of our dreams must be small ones? -B5-
"Theres a place out beyond right and wrong; I'll meet you there" RUMI



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thefraserdomain.typepad.com/ener ... teste.html

www.gordonmoyes.com/2007/01/10/c ... n-nuclear/

www.answers.com/topic/geothermal ... technology

www.greentechmedia.com/articles/ ... r-918.html

www.technologyreview.com/Energy/17236/

solveclimate.com/blog/20080227/g ... dant-cheap

www.altenergystocks.com/archives ... power.html

peakenergy.blogspot.com/2008/05/ ... power.html

seekingalpha.com/article/76811-g ... ources-101

www.smu.edu/geothermal/2...2004NAmap.htm

www1.eere.energy.gov/geother...map.html

geoheat.oit.edu/images/usmap1.gif

pesn.com/2007/01/22/9500449_MIT_ ... 4_hj70.jpg

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... map_US.png

thefraserdomain.typepad.com/ener ... es_map.gif

www.utpb.edu/ceed/renewableenerg ... rmal_1.jpg

images.google.com/imgres ... l%26sa%3DN

New Tectonic Source of Geothermal Energy?

volcan42.jpg Geochemists from the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory and Arizona State University have discovered a new tool for identifying potential geothermal energy resources. The discovery came from comparing helium isotopes in samples gathered from wells, springs, and vents across the northern Basin and Range of western North America. High helium ratios are common in volcanic regions. When the investigators found high ratios in places far from volcanism, they knew that hot fluids must be permeating Earth's inner layers by other means. The samples collected on the surface gave the researchers a window into the structure of the rocks far below, with no need to drill.

"A good geothermal energy source has three basic requirements: a high thermal gradient—which means accessible hot rock—plus a rechargeable reservoir fluid, usually water, and finally, deep permeable pathways for the fluid to circulate through the hot rock," says Mack Kennedy. "We believe we have found a way to map and quantify zones of permeability deep in the lower crust that result not from volcanic activity but from tectonic activity, the movement of pieces of the Earth's crust."

Geothermal is considered by many to be the best renewable energy source besides solar. Accessible geothermal energy in the United States, excluding Alaska and Hawaii, is estimated at 90 quadrillion kilowatt-hours, 3,000 times more than the country's total annual energy consumption. Determining helium ratios from surface measurements is a practical way to locate promising sources.

Julia Whitty is Mother Jones' environmental correspondent. You can read from her new book, The Fragile Edge, and other writings, here.


1. What happened to our economy?
Several things. I will try to go in the order in which i think these things are the most influential.
A. The War In Iraq. Trillions of Dollars we won't be spending on anything constructive. The big hole in the leaky boat.
Every Dollar we spend on war is a dollar not spent on sustainability, stable economy, healthcare, education, or etc.
B. The Corporate Oligarchy. Our economy has actually been very abused for nearly 100 years by the Ultra-rich, who seem to think that
our national economy should be their personal play pen. Trickle down economics are voodoo economics and do not work. When you take
economic pressure off of the rich, those pressures just end up falling to the middle class and the poor. What happened to the economy is that the
Ultra-rich gutted America to make themselves richer at the expense of the rest of us. Its STILL working for THEM.
They are getting rich. Fortune 500 companies are still doing just fine. Its the middle Class and the poor who are suffering.

This effect by itself was somewhat balanced in the economy of the Clinton era. Clinton is not my favorite guy, but he did balance the budget.
Bush on the other hand in every way, shape, and form, increased federal spending, decreased spending on the middle class and the poor,
and consolidated power and money in the hands of the Rich. Our economy tanked because of TRICKLE UP. They robbed most of America, and
that effect is now being felt by even those who did the robbing.
C. Global Dependency. Something easy to miss unless you are a systems theorist. The most stable systems are those which are self sufficient redundantly. The best way to run the country is with each state and each city doing all it can to be self sufficient. That way when there is stress in onw place, it does not carry to elsewhere, and if one part of the system breaks down, other areas can help to compensate. The corporate oligarchy
has intentionally reversed this simple wisdom as part of their agenda to promote and sustain poverty. By keeping us dependent on the global economy, we can't say no to the terms and conditions that they impose.

D. Automatically disvaluing currency. Its easy to read the constitution and to see that it says that the governments of the states are responsible to print their own currencies. What we have is a system in blatant violation of the constitution which gives the power to print money over to a private corporation. The fed bank is no more a federal agency than fed ex. The problem is very simple. They print the money, and the USA buys it, on credit, with interest. Every day we go into more debt over the currency itself, in a vicious circle. Clearly, the long term effect of this is that the money being printed ends up having less and less value. Thats market wisdom trying to tell us to put the Fed Bank out of our collective misery.

E. Corporations leaving the USA... well, makes sense, they are done looting it. The main reason why they leave is simply that they are
looking for new governments to loot. USA citizenry is starting to wise up, and al lof the money has already been drained. They sucked out our blood,
and you can't get more blood from a dry corpse thats been flocked on by vampires.
Avoiding taxes is one small peice of a larger issue; a Big Corporation can BE ITS OWN GOVERNMENT in third world countries. They don't have to
pay taxes, they don't have to deal with unions, they don't have to pay a living wage, they don't have to keep humane working conditions... Its a long list. Low wage markets is just another thing on that list.

So our economy tanked for these main reasons;
1. The Iraq war
2. Old systemic failures which are still present right now, ie; Corporate Oligarchy.
3. The money system itself is inherently flawed for the purpose of making bankers rich.
At the expense of the poor over the short term, and at the expense of the whole economy long term.
4. Corporations are leaving the USA for more fertile grazing lands.
5. We keep buying stuff from overseas, rather than make it ourselves.

Each of these issues here is vastly over simplified and many details coudl be put on these basics.
I have only about the equivalent of a Bachelors in Economics, So i should confess that i'm no Expert.
(On the other hand, i'd do better at running the economy than the bushies have... but then i do know my systems theory.)

I hope that answers these questions to the satisfaction of those asking them, and that they will join us here in exploring these and other issues.
Thanks!
:mrorange:
_________________

THE COMING ECONOMIC MELTDOWN
topic posted Today, 12:17 AM by offlineprometheusPAN delete entire topic

*
For well over 50 years the USA has run its economy based on assorted forms of debt bubbles and ephemeral "trading". The top 10 percent make their money not by doing anything valuable for the economy, but by being parasites on wall street. The housing bubbles, the mortgage bubbles, the loan bubbles, the banking bubbles, all are phantasms created out of thin air by waving a magic wand.

What had to happen sooner or later is for those bubbles to pop. Thanks to the bush admin, too many of those bubbles have now popped nearly simultaneously, and the house of cards is going to fall. It will happen in excruciating slow motion, like a train wreck; rail car after rail car
being hopped off the tracks. But it will happen, and there is little or nothing that can now be done to stop it.

The domino effect has begun. With misery and trickle up, the great financial institutions which saw the little guy as the sucker are now being brought down by the millions of defaulted littled guys who have lost it all- or almost all.

This trend will not stop and it will not let up just because the fed bails them out. In fact the USA government is itself just one more financial institution which must fail because it too is based on bubbles.

There is really only one chance to avoid something much worse than the great depression, and that is to do the following things,
immediately;
1. Transform over to a geothermal/solar/wind centered energy economy.
2. Begin localization of resource creation and use
3. Begin permaculturing our communities
4. Invest in a genuine green energy mass transit program
5. RE-regulate the assorted economic institutions.
6. make taxes FAIR rather than insanely slanted to favor the rich.

If these solutions are not employed, (along with other more minor solutions) Then cause and effect and systemic law dictates that the economy MUST fail, and in a way that will force us to rename the "Great depression" the 'lesser depression."


As long as you folks stay over here where the answers are not put in front of you, all you can do is at best be witnesses to this as it happens, and eventually, tribe will fail and the record of your assorted conversations will disintegrate into the ethers.

Unless we start investing right now in real solutions, real problem solving process, and a community created for the purpose of paradigmal revolution, all you are doing is spinning your wheels while rome catches fire.

It will take a long tiem for that fire to spread and catch, but it will, and eventually there will be no way to stop it from burning out civilization to the ground.

Gas is not going to get cheaper, its going up because we have already hit peak oil. The earth only has so much oil in it and we have taken out of it more than half of what it has to offer. Simultaneously, emerging economies are competing for that oil, and so that means that there is even less of it to go around.

If you think things are bad now, what will they be like in 2 years when gas is 15 dollars / gallon? How much will you pay for a loaf of bread
when transporting it to the grocery store costs three times more than it does now?

The USA is about to fail spectacularly, just as Russia did while reagan was in office. And due in no small part to reagan and other republicans.

If you cannot be wise enough to help me stop this from happening, then at least i owe it to you all to warn you to stock up a years worth of food and water.

There is in theory still just enough time to prevent this from happening if we can actually band together and be problem solvers rather than chit chatters. Having made such a pitch before, I can only assume it won't work this time either, but, at least I will have the grim satisfaction of knowing i did all that I personally could for you all; even tho you all really didn't do much of anything to help me.
_________________

Again, but since it is important.

No bailout of the banks can do anything to stop the economy from crashing. All it can do is slow
or postpone that crash.

To think of it another way, think of it as an infinite entropy hot potato. Now we cover up the hot potato with a nice shiny shell, one of those clam shells. And we whoosh the hot potato around on the table underneath those shells until nobody can tell where the hot potato is. So people go back to business and etc, saying to themselves "there is no hot potato." Which is actually just about as insane as it gets.

The hot potato is still on the table, its just being re-arranged. All that is going on is a shell game in which the location of the hot potato becomes in question. In this particular case, we know exactly where the hot potato actually ends up tho- sucking more taxes out of the American people, IE; the hot potato ends up being a weight around the neck of the common man/woman.

And that is a problem because the original hot potato was bad enough, but as we moved this hot potato around and robbed peter to pay paul, the hot potato actually grew in size because
we are bailing out the evil chimps rather than letting them fall.

At best, this postpones the hard crash till after the election. At worst, it postpones it a week or three and then the hot potato gets so hot it burns through the shell.
(Not to mention so big that the shell can no longer stay flush to the table.)

The root problem is deregulation which allowed the drift of rich getting richer and poor getting poorer to shift at a new multiple of the old rate. for the sake of argument, lets call it 100 times
more. So the rich got richer 100 times faster and more frequently and the poor got poorer 100 times faster and more quickly, because the entire banking establishments fundamental purpose of being a vehicle by which to transfer money from poor to rich was no longer controlled or regulated. Evil does what it can get away with, and, thanks to bush deregulation, it could get away with murder.

This leaves 10 million or 50 million Americans recently slid over the red line from middle class into poverty. And with that much drag coeficient on the economy, and with no more blood left
to suck, the vampire institutions are failing, which is actually a good thing, because all they ever were was vampires to begin with.

We should let them fail. We most certainly should not give the president unilateral power to take our tax money and toss it away to banks, without any oversight, without court process,
or etc. (The wording of the current bailout bill says that nobody gets any power at all in this other than the president.)

I subscribe to "Newsmax" which is a fundie ponzi scheme news outlet for republican suckers.
Its a way to keep a finger on the pulse of the insane crap that these people create in order to
have their insane delusional version of reality.

What is interesting here is that as usual, they mix a lot of truth in with their corrupt and evil
games. In this case, they are trying to make money off of scaring their subscribers shitless.
Which is pretty much all the republicans do anyways; scare you and then offer you an elephant gun so you can go shoot bunnies.
_________________

pecking orders are for animals. Are you a hen clucking in the farmyard?

I just told you that I don't want power. Democracy, remember?
Our nation was founded upon it.

Why can't we do that?
-----------
Ego. ID. Animals don't have conflicts between themselves inside of their own psyches which they project at other people like NTs do.

Yoni, Cliff, And to a much lesser extent Mike C all get sucked into pack psychology games precisely because of projection of their own id.

Tigers may be killers, but it isn't about projecting an internal psychological conflict.

www.youtube.com/watch

www.youtube.com/watch

www.youtube.com/watch

www.youtube.com/watch

Just the joke of the moment. I fully grant that the onion is not easy to peel...