An athlete with mechanical legs is being allowed to compete in the Olympics. I think that's probably the wrong decision.
ap.google.com/article/ALe...eNwD90MU63O0
Here's a slightly related story. Missing a leg can be a huge advantage in wrestling as it takes 20+ pounds off of you.
sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story
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Re: Cyborgs in the Olympics?
Sat, May 17, 2008 - 1:41 PMI don't personally see a problem with someone with artificial legs being allowed to compete in the Olympics. I remember when the United States introduced professional athletes into the Olympics with their basketball 'dream team'. Now THAT is definitely the wrong decision. Since their inception, the Olympic games has always been about amateur athletes from various countries competing with each other (or city states in the case of Ancient Greece). The United States decides they want to mix big-money, big ego professional sports into the Olympics, presumably the reason was 'because we want to win'. I don't know why this was tolerated.
Also I don't think that weighing less is an advantage in wrestling. If anything, it is a disadvantage. I don't see how it can be an advantage to weigh less as a wrestler. I think a lighter wrestler would be tossed around like a scarecrow. I used to do some wrestling, not to mention Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and as a rather large fellow I can attest that weighing more is a distinct advantage when wrestling. After all, Japanese Sumo wrestlers are hardly waifs, and neither are football players for that matter.
I think the one legged wrestler mentioned that he has balanced this disadvantage with an advantage, namely a large upper build. He is unable to implement wrestling moves such as the 'scissors clamp' because of his one leg, but his arms are crushingly strong. -
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Re: Cyborgs in the Olympics?
Sat, May 17, 2008 - 2:32 PMJames:
> I don't personally see a problem with someone with artificial legs being allowed to compete in the Olympics.
What about when artificial legs are better than human legs?
The olympic committee has ruled that they are not an advantage. But that is a subjective ruling. Are they sure it's not an advantage?
> Also I don't think that weighing less is an advantage in wrestling. If anything, it is a disadvantage. I don't see how it can be an advantage to weigh less as a wrestler. I think a lighter wrestler would be tossed around like a scarecrow.
That's the point.
A 125 pound wrestler, who is missing one leg, would have the strength and build of a 160 pound guy, but would be competing against other wrestlers in the 125 pound category. And yes, he should be able to toss these other guys around like scarecrows. -
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Re: Cyborgs in the Olympics?
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 1:34 AM<<What about when artificial legs are better than human legs?
The Olympic committee has ruled that they are not an advantage. But that is a subjective ruling. Are they sure it's not an advantage? >>
How can artificial legs possibly be better than flesh and blood human legs? This isn't 'Steve Austin, the bionic man' competing. There is no way a pair of artificial legs will let you run faster than a pair of flesh and blood legs would. If this were so, why don't you think all the Athletes would be chopping off their original legs and getting them replaced with artificial legs?
How the fuck could artificial legs be better than flesh and blood legs? There aren't even any motors in these legs. What do you think calves are for? Why do you think runners and cyclists have large calf muscles? If anything, his artificial legs are a disadvantage.
As for the guy with the one leg, that's what he weighs in at. The rules shouldn't be changed because being an amputee gives him 'a distinct advantage' over the other wrestlers. As I have stated, there are scores of wrestling moves which require two legs to use. This guy can never put someone in a scissors lock. He has merely compensated for his missing leg by building up his upper body. The other wrestlers in the 125 pound category have this option as well. The guy with the missing leg doesn't have the option of growing another leg?
Would you suggest that blind people be made to wear earplugs in a game of tag, since they have developed extraordinary hearing to compensate for their lack of sight? -
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Re: Cyborgs in the Olympics?
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 1:36 AM>How the fuck could artificial legs be better than flesh and blood legs?
Uh...you really can't think this one through? -
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Re: Cyborgs in the Olympics?
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 2:06 PM>How the fuck could artificial legs be better than flesh and blood legs?
<<Uh...you really can't think this one through?>>
Well, I suppose this depends on your definition of 'better'.
I had a friend once who thought it would be better to lose all of his teeth and replace them with dentures. I suppose there are certain advantages to this. You can have multiple sets of 'teeth'. You can clean your 'teeth' by sticking them in a glass at night. There is one thing that makes your natural teeth superior to dentures though. Sensation.
I recall once some people were talking about a 'guinea pig' experiment in the United States, where a company would pay you $10,000 for an experimental laser surgery procedure. For $10,000 they would remove your small toe, then ATTEMPT to reattach it with a new, unproven medical procedure. I was all ready to sign up for the procedure, until someone pointed out that missing your small toe would affect the way you walk forever. Your balance would be thrown off slightly on the foot with the missing toe. You might have to walk with a cane for increased stability, you wouldn't be able to run the same way, or play sports in the same way. You would miss the toe every day.
Here's one thing about machines. They break down. The more complex they are, the more things there are in them to break down and require repair. Legs break down too of course, yet they heal. They are self-repairing. Artificial legs have to be repaired by a specialist.
Let's say someone gets a leg amputated and needs a replacement. Lets say this happens 20 years in the future, and the recipient opts for a cybernetic leg. This leg has certain advantages in a way. For one thing, there are options to smuggle things inside, or even mount a semi-automatic weapon. The toes, foot and heel can all be articulated by picking up nerve impulses left over from the missing leg. This is a remarkable achievement, considering that over half the bones in the human body are in the hands or feet (fifty bones, with complex muscle articulation.) Previous artificial legs were made of metal and heavier, causing an imbalance which needed to be adjusted to. These composite legs, which are expensive tend to be lighter, and longer lasting than previous artificial legs.
However, one thing medical science hasn't tackled is the 'phantom limb' syndrome. The feeling that the amputated leg is still there, and swollen, or suffering from cramps, or itchy. The recipient of the leg reaches down to scratch a leg that isn't there. He suffers from a muscle cramp in a leg which is no longer attached to his body.
Also, there is no nerve sensation in the artificial leg. He lost one of his rather expensive artificial toes when he got it stuck in a piece of machinery at work. Had this have been a 'real' leg, he would have been able to feel it. The nerve sensations in his toe would have registered as pain and he would have been able to withdraw his foot in time and save his toe.
No sensation. So no matter how articulate his complex foot might move, or how well the knee flexes, it will never be THE SAME as his original leg. He will never feel the grass on his toes for example. If a dog urinates against his leg, he would not feel it. If he was on his cell phone or reading the paper, he would be oblivious to this fact that his pant leg is covered in dog urine as he walked down the street, got on a bus, went to a job interview. Swimming would be awkward, if not impossible with his artificial leg, since the legs would have a different weight and buoyancy. He would never be able to get a tan on the artificial leg without using airbrush paint. No matter how good it was, the leg will always be an attachment, an accessory. Not really 'part' of him.
Fortunately, this amputee of the future has the choice of remaining with his artificial leg which is ALMOST as good, or having another leg grown out from his stump. This new leg would grow in much the same way it did when he was a fetus, from undifferentiated cells. All thanks to stem-cell research. This new leg would look 'pretty weird' for a year or so, like a little baby's leg stuck onto the leg stump of an adult. However, within a year it would be a 'new leg', with the same sensations and just as good as the old one. -
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Re: Cyborgs in the Olympics?
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 2:40 PM>>However, one thing medical science hasn't tackled is the 'phantom limb' syndrome.<<
Google "Ramachandran" in reference to phantom limb and prepare for an inspiring shock. -
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Ramachandran
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 4:12 PMWow, that's brilliant and a paradoxically simple solution. Apparently I was wrong about the phantom limb syndrome.
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Re: Cyborgs in the Olympics?
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 5:30 PMHave you seen the old Terminator movies or Blade Runner? We are getting closer and closer to that every day.
> Also, there is no nerve sensation in the artificial leg.
Actually as of Dec. 2007, scientists have managed to do that.
www.spectrum.ieee.org/dec07/5756
> Here's one thing about machines. They break down. The more complex they are, the more things there are in them to break down and require repair. Legs break down too of course, yet they heal. They are self-repairing.
Remember that Terminator movie where the cyborg could be broken into a million pieces, and then would just rebuild himself. Well, guess what. We're just at the very basics, but robots are starting to be able to do that too.
www.youtube.com/watch
www.youtube.com/watch
Here's some more related stuff. And remember, every year this just keeps getting better seemingly along an exponential curve. Human progress is linear. So, soon robots should surpass our natural bodies in almost every way.
Robot Violinist:
www.youtube.com/watch
Touch sensitive robotic hand:
www.youtube.com/watch
And, of course, life like robotic cyborgs:
www.youtube.com/watch -
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Re: Cyborgs in the Olympics?
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 6:08 PMOh, ok. I guess I was wrong. There is no reason to assume that technology won't supercede the limits of our own bodies someday.
I remember having a discussion with someone once about how the first deep space explorers would HAVE to be cyborgs, simply because the human body was not designed for the rigours of space.
I also remember a video game in the 1980's. It was a baseball game between two teams of robots. Of course, these robots all had 'Go go gadget' powers. I remember thinking how this might change professional sports some day. Imagine if one day, the Baseball league of the Basketball league went on strike because the players wanted more money. The Sports managers all smirk and say "Well, go ahead and leave then. You have all been replaced by robot players! Not only can the robots play better sports than a human ever could, but none of them collect a salary, or get involved in scandals!" It would be fun at this point to see sports fans abandon their overpaid human athletes striking for a higher salary, in order to watch robot athletes instead.
Something like nanobots certainly makes it possible for machines to self repair themselves. It wouldn't be much different from the cells in the human body repairing damage by replacing cells. -
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Re: Cyborgs in the Olympics?
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 8:04 PM> Oh, ok. I guess I was wrong.
No problem. Things are changing so fast these days it's impossible to keep up with what has suddenly gone from being impossible, to possible in a lab, to available in costco.
Costco nows sells a robot that will vacuum your house. It's pretty basic, but it's a start.
www.irobot.com/
In ten years from now, you should be able to buy a human-like cyborg like this to do all of your chores.
www.youtube.com/watch
Technology is changing amazingly quickly. We should see things that almost beyond imagination within 30 years.
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Re: Cyborgs in the Olympics?
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 11:47 AMjames:
> As for the guy with the one leg, that's what he weighs in at. The rules shouldn't be changed because being an amputee gives him 'a distinct advantage' over the other wrestlers.
I didn't suggest changing the rules in that case. I just thought it was interesting.
But imagine if wrestling was a big money sport. What if athletes started cutting off their own legs to get a $10 million wrestling contract?
> How can artificial legs possibly be better than flesh and blood human legs?
The Olympic committee was probably right. They probably aren't an advantage yet. But someday soon, we'll almost certainly have artificial legs that are far superior to human legs.
One approach is creating artificial muscles. Read about Elecoactive Polymer Actuators here:
eap.jpl.nasa.gov/
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Re: Cyborgs in the Olympics?
Sat, May 17, 2008 - 7:21 PM>The United States decides they want to mix big-money, big ego professional sports into the Olympics, presumably the reason was 'because we want to win'. I don't know why this was tolerated.
Uh...because all the other countries were using pros already?
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Unsu...
Re: Cyborgs in the Olympics?
Sat, May 17, 2008 - 7:03 PMJust like they have Special Olympics, they can have Crippled Olympics. And Cyborg Olympics.
That would rock.. -
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Re: Cyborgs in the Olympics?
Sat, May 17, 2008 - 7:24 PMThey should also have the steroid olympics...oh, wait, thats the Olympic Games. -
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Re: Cyborgs in the Olympics?
Sat, May 17, 2008 - 7:47 PM
I'm liking these ideas.
The special olympics, "normal" olympics, steroid olympics, and cyborg olympics.
That would be awesome.
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Re: Cyborgs in the Olympics?
Sat, May 17, 2008 - 7:30 PMAdam,
The Olympics is all about having unfair advantages. It used to be performance enhancing drugs, probably still is. In the past the Olympics were only for amateur athletes, now it's for all athletes. I think this is a great decision and should be recognized as a victory for people with physical disabilities who have been excluded from many aspects of daily life. I'm not sure how you or anyone else can consider running with stilts to be an advantage against world class sprinters.
Maybe kids with ADHD shouldn't be allowed to take their medications when they take their SATs. -
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Re: Cyborgs in the Olympics?
Sat, May 17, 2008 - 8:51 PMseriously, its bullshit that cyborgs can compete. i mean come on once robotics gets really good its lights out cyborgs will dominate. -
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once robotics gets really good its lights out cyborgs will dominate.
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 12:34 AM -
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Unsu...
Re: once robotics gets really good its lights out cyborgs will dominate.
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 12:55 PM<www.raytheon.com/newsroom/...oskeleton/>
Built from a combination of sensors, actuators and controllers, the futuristic suit enables a user to easily carry a man on his back or lift 200 pounds several hundred times without tiring. Yet the suit, which is being developed for the U.S. Army, is also agile enough to let its wearer kick a soccer ball, punch a speed bag, and climb stairs and ramps with ease.
That suits a crock of shit, I can kick a soccer ball, punch a speed bag and climb stairs without one. And the 200 pound lifts? they showed him using a lat machine, with that my grandmother could do 200 pound lifts all day.
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Unsu...
Re: Cyborgs in the Olympics?
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 12:49 PM
<seriously, its bullshit that cyborgs can compete. i mean come on once robotics gets really good its lights out cyborgs will dominate.>
When it gets really good we will all be trading in our outdated flesh units for cyborg replacements. -
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Re: Cyborgs in the Olympics?
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 2:41 PMI think it was a tribute to the spirit of The Olympics. The Olympics is about trying to promote peace and hope through sports more then it's about cutthroat competition.
Taking away the hope of a top athlete who could compete, and all the people who might be inspired by him, would have been the wrong decision for them.
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