Andrews idea of justice on Isreal's creation

topic posted Fri, July 3, 2009 - 1:23 AM by  Elo
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Just so we are clear of how Andrew REALLY thinks, I quote -

<They fucked up. They lost. [Palastinians] To the victor goes the spoils. That's how it works. Jews were the losers in Europe and all over MENA, they lost their land, they lost their lives... To the victor went the spoils - that's how it worked. >

So the Palastinians paid retribution for what the Germans done to the jews. This view i belive deep down is shared by many Isreali supports, but not i wouldnt say for a minute the more reasonable ones, like Adam for example.

Its interesting that if you really press someone in a debate, you finaly get to the truth of what they think.
posted by:
Elo
offline Elo
London
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  • Unsu...
     
    ~Its interesting that if you really press someone in a debate, you finaly get to the truth of what they think.~

    No need to press it just naturally gushes forth....
    • Coming from the guy that says that, "sadly", Obama won't carpet-bomb the settlements, I'm not too worried.

      Your problem is that your causality factoring will go back to Adam and Eve if that's what it takes for you to make A point, not even THE point. BUT - that said, I'll take your bait, Mr. Sadly.

      <So the Palastinians paid retribution for what the Germans done to the jews.>

      No. But they DID get their history made by "what the Germans done to the jews." (I notice that you capitalized "Palestinians", you took the time to write it out even when you cut and pasted my quote, but you won't capitalize "jews". Interesting. I wonder how many other times you will capitalize "Palestinians", but not "jews". Interesting. You probably just forgot though, 'eh?)

      Yes, they were the left-handed stepchildren of the region. A sad fact for them, but a REALITY. YES, throughout history, to the victor went the spoils. One cannot argue that point. We won WWI/II, and each time we (America) made the rules and changed history and borders. If the Germans had won, then THEY would be responsible for being the "victors", and thus THEY would get the spoils. That's a reality.

      In Jordan, did the Jordanians the "victors"? What was Jordan before it was Jordan, Mr. Sadly? Where was the historical "Palestine" before it was what the region is now? Do you even KNOW? Do you know that it crept down into the Sinai (Egypt) and into Jordan? That means that to the victors - in this case the Egyptians and the Jordanians - THEY got a HUGE chunk of what was historical "Palestine", even though it was not called that at the time (and had not been called that for how long, Mr. Sadly?

      <This view i belive deep down is shared by many Isreali supports, but not i wouldnt say for a minute the more reasonable ones, like Adam for example.>

      It's a reality. A sad reality for the Pals, for sure - but a reality, just like the 700K or so Jews that were driven out of most of MENA during and after '48. They were not strong enough to resist being booted or driven out of their country, and to the victors - all the countries in the region that had large Jewish populations - went the spoils... Their property. That's how it works. Same for the Native Americans, same for the Tibetans, same for...well, you get the idea, right?

      <Its interesting that if you really press someone in a debate, you finaly get to the truth of what they think.>

      I have said this for years, you're just figuring it out, Mr. Sadly?

      Hey - wanna let us know what you meant when you sad that, "sadly", Obama would not carpet-bomb the settlements?

      <That statement stinks of 'might is right'. I cant say I approve.>

      No, might is almost NEVER right. But, it's a reality. Close but not the same thing. It's sad what the Americans did to the Native Americans, it's sad what the Chinese did to the Tibetans, and it's sad what happened to the Pals, but it's a REALITY. The victor gets the spoils. What's wrong with saying that? That's a reality. When Iran has changed hands so many times in the last 100 years, EACH TIME, the REALITY is that the victor got the spoils. Iraq, too. For the Bedouin in Egypt, they are being destroyed by the Egyptians, but...the Egyptians won. Same with the Catalans in Spain. That's how it works. Same with the Basques. That's a reality - there's nothing wrong with saying that when a stronger party wins, they win. To the victor goes the spoils. I never said that this is a GOOD thing - it sucks for the loser, obviously. It sucks for the Basques. It sucks for the Tibetans. It sucks for the Native Americans and Palestinians. Yep. That's a fact. It sucks for the Jews that got driven out of their ancestral homes all over the MENA and Europe.

      It sucks for all of them, but...that's a reality, 'eh? If you're robbed tomorrow and the guy with the gun takes all of your money, that sucks for you, right? The robber would be the victor, and your watch and wallet and chain would be the spoils. What - is that wrong to say? It sucks that you lost - but that's the reality.

      <While it is a technical fact that the victors tend to obtain the spoils, that is not a moral argument or justification for what is going on.>

      EXACTLY. It IS "a technical fact", which is EXACTLY what I meant. There is no "moral argument or justification for what is going on", but the reality is not a "moral argument or a justification". It's a reality. Israel won. They won. Throughout history, different peoples lost their lands, that's how it works. In the past, the Pals drove out others that had been there for generations. They were not called "Palestinians" then, but ... this region is one of the central points of the world, so they did not get to be the leaders there. They were used, they were abused and now they have to deal with that reality.

      Hamas were the victors in Gaza - to them went the spoils. Fatah were the winners in the West Bank...

      That's how it works, Mr. Sadly.

      <I didn't see him make any connection between the two, other that they were both losers.>

      Exactly. HE made the connection. HE made the assumption. He's pissed because I called him out in another thread. Pooor Mr. Sadly. Sad that Obama will not ever carpet-bomb the settlements. Poor guy. Sad that Obama won't break the friendship with Israel. Hell, I'm one that thinks that Obama should push them hard to make peace, but even I - this terrible, horrible person - does not think that Israel should be IN the West Bank. So, it's the stupidity of the Pals to not move forward with a peace plan and get back up to 97% of the West Bank. What the fuck are they waiting for?

      <Is _anyone_ going to dispute that?>

      Mr. Sadly? Wanna dispute that fact? Michael?

      Mr. Sadly, you fucked up. Oops.

      • <<<(I notice that you capitalized "Palestinians", you took the time to write it out even when you cut and pasted my quote, but you won't capitalize "jews". Interesting. I wonder how many other times you will capitalize "Palestinians", but not "jews". Interesting. You probably just forgot though, 'eh?) >>>

        Interesting that someone who never gives the Palestinians the dignity of using their name properly would think they are in a position to criticize others on their use of names.
  • Elo:
    >> They fucked up. They lost. [Palastinians] To the victor goes the spoils. That's how it works. Jews were the losers in Europe and all over MENA, they lost their land, they lost their lives... To the victor went the spoils - that's how it worked.
    > So the Palastinians paid retribution for what the Germans done to the jews.

    I don't 100% agree with Andrew's quote. But he simply did not say what you're accusing him of. Read it again.

    He certainly didn't speak of "retribution" on the Palestinians based on European actions. The histories are two completely separate things as he wrote it. I didn't see him make any connection between the two, other that they were both losers.

    Jew were the loser Europe. That's just a fact of life.
    Palestinians/Muslims lost in Israel. Again, just a fact of life.

    Is _anyone_ going to dispute that?

    We can argue about whether of not "to the victor goes the spoils", but that's a different point than the one you've made.
    • It is just global affirmative action. Not expecting Elo to know what that is (well maybe) but the rest of you? Hey. They are there now. They aren't going away unless you kill a few million of them. If that is okay with you all, then fine. I don't advise you to personally get into the shooting match though (well, maybe if you have the cajones). But who knows? I figure all the internet anti-Israel chicken hawks about as likely to do so as Steven is to go join the PKK. Pffft.

      Any of you Jew/Israel haters think we should take back the gains we've given to minorities in the States because of historical discrimination? Watch carefully who says they would like to do so. Sleep with dogs, you get fleas.

      No different. Yes, the Arabs were reverse-discriminated against to give the Jews the State of Israel. Too bad. They deserved it.
    • <preferably empty". So, "preferably>

      Bullshit Andrew, now your misquoting me, so it seems you extend to lieing now too. Show me which post i said preferably empty ? what i said was presumably sentinent meant at night when there would be no builders in. And i also said very clearly EMPTY BUILDINGS. Dont lie dude, thats called slander.

      And it was pretty obvious that me and sentinent were being a bit flipant at first - me talking about it being 4th of July for the Palastinians, when i got serious, i said the correct aproach would not be Obama to bomb the NEW EMPTY SETTLMENTS - read that slowly in case you get it wrong again - EMPTY - OK got it finaly now ? (though i think you got it first time and were deserpate to twist mine and sentinents words)

      when i got serious i said if the world worked correctly what would happen is that the UN - not America alone, demand an immediate stop to these illegal settlments, when Isreal igonre the UN, the UN should send in bulldozers to mow them down, with an international task force to protect them. Of course that would be whats right. And it would be a damn site better than what the Palastinians get meeted out to them each day.

      Of course - unlike the Isreali army - we would make sure they were empty and nobody got hurt.

      And yes, I am angry about Netanyahus stance, I make no apologise about that. I am very angry. I am sick and tired of Isreal preteneding to be interesting in peace, playing games, whille palastinians rot in the prison they created for them.

      Well, it aint gonna last forever dude, thats for sure. Increasingly the world wants justice, and increasingly the world is angry about this, trust me on that, I'm not the only one who is angry. In fact i came to the realisation today that the only way Obama is likely to really move on this is a huge and growing outcry from Europe - that will influence him to take on the challange of breaking the pact with the Jewish lobby in the face of right wing national oppostion.

      And yes, Im extremely angry at Amerdinjad too - unlike you my judgment of people is not dependant on cultural, religous or biological affiliations.

      And yes Im angry at your attitude, while you sit smugly gloating on "winner takes all" real people are dieing over there, mothers are watching there children blown to peices, and Im pleased that makes me emotional Andrew. I'm pleased i care about it. And yes, its also a travisety when Isreal school children die too, and your attitude will allow that and the palastinian deaths to go on.

      And, im doing something about it. There is something coming in the media so big in a year or two that the Amerdinjads, Netanyahu's and Dick head Chenny's of the world wont know whats hit them. Oh yes, the pen is mighter than the sword, but heart is stronger than words.

      You might want to reflect on that in a few years time when your watching it. Maybe by then you will have seen sense.

      Freaking out ? Damn right - its time to get the ball rolling on global change.
      • <They fucked up. They lost. [Palastinians] To the victor goes the spoils. That's how it works. Jews were the losers in Europe and all over MENA, they lost their land, they lost their lives... To the victor went the spoils - that's how it worked. >

        whatever game you guys want to play with words, that attitude stinks. If the fact that millions of Jews is irrelevant to how Isrealis treat Palastinians, why place the two sentances together as a qualifier. The implications are obvious. And you guys of course realise the ultimate implication of that is that if hitler won in his war, he was perfectly entitled to exterminat all the jews, after all, he had the most tanks, he was wining.

        See how much that kind of attitude can stink of shit ?

        Adam, dont do this Netanyahu style word twisting, it doesnt suite you dude. Try talking straight. I was so pleased with what you were upto too.

        Freaking out ? Maybe ive just finaly woken up to how insipid some of the attitudes are in this tribe and how instead of making real change in the world im wasting time talking crap in here.

        Yes, its time for a change.


        • Yep, the real world isn't pretty. It is how it is, not how it should be.

          Israel exists. That isn't going to "change" without genocide.

          The Palestinian state doesn't exist. That isn't going to "change" without compromise.

          The Israelis have exhibited a willingness to compromise for peace, in accordance with 242. Hence, peace treaties, land swaps, and mutually recognized borders with Jordan and Egypt. The Palestinians went just so far, and backed out, preferring another intifada. Afafat was a coward. He admitted that he didn't want to end up like Sadat. Rather, he preferred the status quo, meaning the deaths of how many Palestinians?

          Yes. "Maybe [you've] just finaly [sic] woken up to how insipid some of the attitudes are in this tribe and how instead of making real change in the world im wasting time talking crap in here." And, maybe you are wrong, and somebody else is right?

          Or, maybe you are just as cowardly as Arafat was, and wish to walk away, rather than facing the hard truths put before you, and accepting compromise. Now, that would "stink of shit" no?

          Either way, it is up to you. I guess you could go to some other forum, where everybody agrees with you, even if you are wrong.



          • <Yep, the real world isn't pretty. It is how it is, not how it should be. >

            but it can change, and it is changing, and soon, it WILL change.

            There are many people moving on that now, not just me, and that army is growing and growing and growing stronger, and this army is global, but this army dont want blood, this army wants the sun to shine again.

            For the rest, look up whats going on with the conjuncts of pluto and uranus, the 26,000 year conjunct with the centre of our galaxy, and the REAL stuff that the mayans said - you wont find that on the net, youll have to get a book. : )

            Andrew, peace, its not about you, its about how much i want to change the world.
        • Elo:
          > I am angry about Netanyahus stance, I make no apologise about that. I am very angry. I am sick and tired of Isreal preteneding to be interesting in peace, playing games...

          And I simply wish Hamas would catch up with Netanyahu. I think there is something a bit disingenuous in attacking Israel, while the other half of that combatants are behaving even worse.

          Did you look for a reference? Has Hamas _ever_ spoken of living in _peace_ with Israel?

          We've spoken of mutual distrust. I'm sorry, but it's one _hell_ of a lot to ask of Israelis to be _serious_ about peace, while the neighbor to the South totally rejects peace.

          > Adam, dont do this Netanyahu style word twisting, it doesnt suite you dude. Try talking straight. I was so pleased with what you were upto too.

          I am talking straight.

          I agree with you that Andrew's "winner takes all" tone stinks.

          But, you were also completely and totally wrong in your original post. Andrew simply did not speak about any form of "retribution". You have no excuse to get upset about that.

          I'd take Andrew's words and phrase them a bit differently: You can't turn back history. Israel is here to stay. Time has come for all Palestinians to learn to accept that.
          • <while the neighbor>

            Neighbour ? Is that what you call them, neighbours normaly live in a house, these people live in a prison under the barrel of a gun in virtual slave like conditons. As Obama says "intolerable" conditions.

            And how do Isrealis live, and how did that difference happen Adam ? How where the Palastinians living just 60 years ago ?

            and how did that happen i wonder ? who done that, whos fault was it. Sometimes in life adam, things are simple, who done that to the Palastinians ? Themselves i guess you will say, because there violent - yeah right.

            I dont particuarly like Hamas aproach either, though by god you force people to live like pigs for decades and this is the result, but ive already stated the reasons why i think the owness is more on Isreal to move towards peace than Hammas. They are NOT living in virtual hell like the palastinians are, they live in realtive comfort, in a country that has been protected since its inception. The injustice of the history. And lastly but not the least, they are a high gdp per head country, and i dont care what anybody says, that makes a big difference. They should show better moral standards as just about every high gdp per head country does with the possible exception of Saudi.

            Hamas have already said they want a truce and then will talk. You say "thats not good enough". Well good for you. and good for Netanyahu, you both dont seeem serious about peace if you ask me, and you asked me yesterday why should Netanyahu SERIOUSLY go for peace seriously ?

            Well if the situation of the Palastinians doesnt bother much to get serious about, and the fact that half the world - all muslim and western people - their peace - affecting billions of people currently hangs in the balance, and could be greatly affected by this.

            Well if that isnt enough to make you guys get serious about this, what about the Jewish children who keep deing in sucide bombs ? That not motivation enough for you guys to be serious ? Does that not bother Netanyahu enough to get VERY serious about peace ? Obviously not.

            Is it really more important to Isrealis that they exapand these settlments ? Obviously yes. They know fine well that will GREATLY lessen the chances of peace with hammas. Why do you think Obama made that the main focus of his talks with Netanyahu - well Adam, i know you know the answer to that.

            Now just try this scenario. After Obamas speech, Netanyahu said "I and the Isreali people are now really serious about peace, we reconginse time has come for a change, and Isreal for one wants things different now, we want to hold out the branch of peace to Hammas and hope they will respond.

            As a gesture of trust, we promise for the duration of the next 12 months while we try to talk about a truce with Hammas and then further enter into talks of a permanant peace settlment, there will be no settlment expansion and no further encrouchment into Palastinian lands.

            You know as well as me, that after Obamas talks, everyone like Hammas would have been watching for Netanyahus response. News geting out of this settlment expansion, which Netanyahu would have known would happen, is like a big Fuck Off sign to Hamas, and even Obama for that matter.

            That is why the fine Isreali gentlmen that I respect Alon Pinkos said that he just could not belive that Netanyahu would not respond and would exapnd settlments.

            Well like Geroge W Bush, there is no accounting for arogance sometime.

            But I tell you what, as we say here, what goes around comes around.

            If Isreal start to play ball with Obama and Hamas do not respond i will be the first to heavily criticise Hamas. There is no great love in me for them.

            I just really want peace in that region as I know this is abosoultly crucial over this next coming decade. Dont you see what is gonig on in Afpak, dont you see what is happening in Iran, in Iraq.

            This whole situation could get worse, much worse, or it could get much better. After Netanyahu's two faced aproach, I am quite sure its gong to get worse now.

            Not just worse for Isreal and Palastine, but worse for the millions of muslims in the whole region, worse for all the British and American troops, and worse for half of the world.

            Thats why im angry about this.

            Hamas, to me after everything the palastinian people have went through for the last 60 years, and how they are forced to live like dogs now by Isreal, for them to just say they want a truce and are willing to talk may not be "good enough" for you, but it is for me, and it evidently is for Obama too.

            I am quite sure if Obama can get Isreal to play ball then the two of them collectivly with a bit of help from people like the Saudis can then get Hamas eventualy to fall in line.

            And if you want the truth of it, im very very upset and angry about what has happend in Iran the last few weeks, i had such high hopes, and now this.

            Im loosing my patientce with fools like the Neo Cons, like Amerdinjad, and the right wing in Isreal.

            I think there is nothing disengenious about that. Hamas, well ive explained what i think, take it or leave it, but i can see the Obama team seems to see things my way too.

            Lets hope long term they have success, and Iran goes eventualy the way it needs.

            Because i tell you Adam, if not this can all get very very dark just yet, very dark. You may or may not know about the mayan 2012 stuff - and its not just about that year by the way, (95% of the stuff youll read about it is rubbish) , you may think its hippy rubbish, but i guarntee you this, the world is going through one of the most crucial times in its evolution right now, over the next 30 years, and the previous 30, since the single cell first formed.

            Thats whats at stake now with global peace, climate change and all the rest of it. If we come out of this right, we have such a great future, science will see to that.

            But we can quite easily sink back to the dark ages, things could go very dark indeed.

            This is why i am so passionate about this.
            • Elo:
              > Neighbour ? Is that what you call them, neighbours normaly ...

              Ever hear of the Hatfields and McCoys?

              Elo, take 3 deep breaths.

              Realize that you're getting upset over progressively more and more trivial things. Yeah, there are problems in the world.

              However, if you're going to get pissed off over someone referring to the Palestinians as Israel's "neighbors", then you're making things worse not better.

              I'll discuss this stuff with you again after you've calmed down a bit.
      • <Bullshit Andrew, now your misquoting me, so it seems you extend to lieing now too. Show me which post i said preferably empty ?>

        HE said "preferably", and you said that you were agreeing with him. Anyway - I was fucking with you on that one.

        <Of course - unlike the Isreali army - we would make sure they were empty and nobody got hurt.>

        RIght. Because that's how the world works...

        And, people don't die when Israel bulldozes a building... Israel clears them out.

        <And yes, I am angry about Netanyahus stance, I make no apologise about that. I am very angry. I am sick and tired of Isreal preteneding to be interesting in peace, playing games, whille palastinians rot in the prison they created for them.>

        Move your partisan screen aside, Elo. The Israelis are SICK of doing a good thing (leaving Lebanon, Gaza, etc) and being attacked for it. They are sick of making cease fires, only to see the terrorists take advantage of the ceasefire. Netanyahu did something that many of you said that he'd NEVER do - which is agree to the two-state solution. He said (in effect), 'Let's talk'. Why don't the Pals then agree to talk? They are keeping THEMSELVES in the "prison" that was created for them. Hell, they could ANY DAY ask for a peace process which would result in a country. Why don't they, Elo? Israel would meet them at the table.

        Why don't you ever ask THEM to do that? Why ONLY Israel?

        <Well, it aint gonna last forever dude, thats for sure.>

        Well, the Israelis worry about not being bombed or attacked TODAY, they don't have the luxury of worrying about 20 years from now.

        <In fact i came to the realisation today that the only way Obama is likely to really move on this is a huge and growing outcry from Europe - that will influence him to take on the challange of breaking the pact with the Jewish lobby in the face of right wing national oppostion.>

        Or, the Pals could just ask for a peace process.

        <And yes Im angry at your attitude, while you sit smugly gloating on "winner takes all" real people are dieing over there, mothers are watching there children blown to peices, and Im pleased that makes me emotional Andrew.>

        Get emotional about real issue, Elo. Winner DOES take all, Elo. Might (unfortunately) DOES make right, Elo. To the victor DO go the spoiles, Elo. That's a reality. Why do you fight against reality? People that fight against reality rarely win the battle, Elo.

        <your attitude will allow that and the palastinian deaths to go on.>

        No. YOUR attitude will CAUSE "the palastinian deaths to go on." I am NON STOP calling for a peace process, regardless of what is happening on the ground. You? Whining about some settlements? So the fuck what? They'll be gone with the finalization of the peace process anyway. Why whine about it? Seems to me like an excuse to NOT talk. Hell, I think that Netanyahu should call their bluff and propose talks.

        <And, im doing something about it. There is something coming in the media so big in a year or two that the Amerdinjads, Netanyahu's and Dick head Chenny's of the world wont know whats hit them. Oh yes, the pen is mighter than the sword, but heart is stronger than words.>

        Oh, lordy.

        <You might want to reflect on that in a few years time when your watching it. Maybe by then you will have seen sense.>

        What, you're going to blow something up? Great.

        <Freaking out ? Damn right - its time to get the ball rolling on global change.>

        Yeah, the world needs martyrs, 'eh?

        <whatever game you guys want to play with words, that attitude stinks.>

        Grow up. Reality stinks, Elo.

        <And you guys of course realise the ultimate implication of that is that if hitler won in his war, he was perfectly entitled to exterminat all the jews, after all, he had the most tanks, he was wining.>

        Yep. As would be his will. That's the reality.

        <Freaking out ? Maybe ive just finaly woken up to how insipid some of the attitudes are in this tribe and how instead of making real change in the world im wasting time talking crap in here.>

        Just don't cross the yellow and red wires.

        <but it can change, and it is changing, and soon, it WILL change.>

        Oooooo.... How exciting!

        <For the rest, look up whats going on with the conjuncts of pluto and uranus, the 26,000 year conjunct with the centre of our galaxy, and the REAL stuff that the mayans said - you wont find that on the net, youll have to get a book. : )>

        Speaking of yranus...

        <Andrew, peace, its not about you, its about how much i want to change the world.>

        I've always been peaceful. Y'r the one freaking out and talking about carpet bombing and bulldozers.

        <I agree with you that Andrew's "winner takes all" tone stinks.>

        Sure it sucks. So does herpes and cancer and kids who lose their lollypops. Does that make it any less relevant? Kids dying in war sucks, but they still die. That's a reality. Bad things happen all the time to even great people, but more often in bad situations. Let's stop the bad situation and then we'll see a lessening of bad things.

        <I'd take Andrew's words and phrase them a bit differently: You can't turn back history. Israel is here to stay. Time has come for all Palestinians to learn to accept that.>

        That's the nice way of saying the exact same thing.

        <Neighbour ? Is that what you call them, neighbours normaly live in a house, these people live in a prison under the barrel of a gun in virtual slave like conditons. As Obama says "intolerable" conditions.>

        Maybe then they should stop attacking Israel, 'eh? It's gotten WORSE since Israel left, and that is ALL THEIR OWN FAULT. If they had not attacked Israel IMMEDIATELY after Israel left, and then fired over SEVEN THOUSAND rockets at Israel, then things would not be so bad, it may be as 'good' as the West Bank.

        <I dont particuarly like Hamas aproach either, though by god you force people to live like pigs for decades and this is the result, but ive already stated the reasons why i think the owness is more on Isreal to move towards peace than Hammas.>

        Grow the fuck up, Elo. Isreal did not "force" anything. The Pals CHOSE war instead of peace and have made the same choice for 60 years. All they have to do is choose peace and things will improve.

        <Hamas have already said they want a truce and then will talk.>

        Whatever. They want a 10 year truce, not peace. This truce they call a "tactic" of destroying Israel finally. I'd not take that deal. EVER. And, no Israeli will either, ESPECIALLY after the 7K rockets.

        If they want to talk, they can talk PEACE, not the "tactic" of truce. Grow up.

        <Well if that isnt enough to make you guys get serious about this, what about the Jewish children who keep deing in sucide bombs ?>

        The ONLY way to stop the suicide bombs in the LONG RUN is peace. But, it takes TWO to have peace in this particular situation. Netanyahu made the first step - who will take him up on it, Elo?

        <Does that not bother Netanyahu enough to get VERY serious about peace ? Obviously not.>

        Blaming only one side never will achieve ANYTHING, Elo. Grow up.

        <Is it really more important to Isrealis that they exapand these settlments ? Obviously yes.>

        I love how you guys will explain away why the Pals can't do something for political reasons, but when Israel has the same issues, you blame them for it. Hypofuckingcrites.

        <You know as well as me, that after Obamas talks, everyone like Hammas would have been watching for Netanyahus response.>

        Why AGAIN should Israel be the one to take the first step, Elo? They took the first step in Lebanon - they were attacked for it. They took the first step in Gaza - they were attacked for it.

        Why do you ONLY demand that Israel makes this step? Why not Hamas? Grow the fuck up.

        <If Isreal start to play ball with Obama and Hamas do not respond i will be the first to heavily criticise Hamas.>

        Why not criticize them NOW? Why not criticize the group that is calling for Israel's destruction? The Israeli government is not calling for the destruction of the Pals, so why should you give more credit to fucking Hamas terrorists? Fucking hell.

        <This whole situation could get worse, much worse, or it could get much better. After Netanyahu's two faced aproach, I am quite sure its gong to get worse now.>

        All the Pals have to do is answer him, Elo. That's it - say, 'We want to sit down and discuss peace'.

        Why is it ONLY the Israelis fault that the Pals don't want to do this? Why do you excuse away the over 7K rockets as obviously no big deal, that Israel should just ignore Hamas' attacks and quest to destroy Israel, but then you get all mad when Israel reclaims some land that was underwater 20 years ago?

        Grow up. Solutions are made by those that show up, and good decisions are found by making intelligent choices. You're not asking for the Pals to show up, and you're not making intelligent choices.

        Elo - why can't the Pals TODAY ask for peace? Why don't they? Did you EVER ask that question of yourself?
        • I hadn't noticed this:

          "For the rest, look up whats going on with the conjuncts of pluto and uranus, the 26,000 year conjunct with the centre of our galaxy, and the REAL stuff that the mayans said - you wont find that on the net, youll have to get a book. : )"

          Don't know how I missed it. Ahem.

          "When the moon is in the Seventh House And Jupiter aligns with Mars Then peace will guide the planets. And love will steer the stars ..."

          Hey, wait, I'm an Aquarius. Maybe I can get a job at the State Department, or on that new UN commission. Maybe we can convince the Palestinians that it written in the stars, and they should abide by 242? Oh, shit, the age of Aquarius is over? Fuck.
          • <Maybe we can convince the Palestinians that it written in the stars,>

            nobody has to convince anyone about Uranus and Pluto - they'll be there driving change whether we like it or not.


            • <nobody has to convince anyone about Uranus and Pluto - they'll be there driving change whether we like it or not.>

              oooooooooook
              • well only another year or so to find out.
                • change: seems vague enough to mean anything

                  What's going on next year: conflict?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    <What's going on next year: conflict? >


                    <In last month’s essay, we focused upon a challenging and stressful aspect that has grabbed the attention of many astrologers, a t-square involving Saturn, Uranus, and Pluto occurring in 2010. Given the symbolism involved and drawing from ancient and intuitive wisdom, this time represents both a turning point in history and a crucible of socio-culture forces. The alignment suggests that old structures and traditional modes of being will clash—and potentially clash violently—with new ideologies and social organizations that have reached their point of needing collective manifestation. If the 2010 t-square alignment is to be the fulcrum of change, then what are the emerging possibilities that will surface from the wake of this time?

                    The main astrological alignment that informs the next decade involves a square, or ninety degree, alignment between Uranus and Pluto. Essentially, as Saturn moves out of alignment with both Uranus and Pluto, the two outer planets remain in the configuration. Given an orb of ten degrees, this square between Uranus and Pluto will remain in effect through 2018. As a pairing, Uranus and Pluto correlate with times of societal change, upheaval, and revolution. When these two planets join forces, cultural structures are challenged and often transformed.

                    Instead of predicting what changes may come from the Uranus-Pluto square alignment ahead, it is advisable to look at historic precedent, to see how the Uranus-Pluto cycle has manifested through history. Through scrutiny of the cycle, it is apparent that these alignments have a foundation-rocking, evolutionary, and progressive vector; it may be argued that this cycle is the true engine and catalyst for the tremendous push on cultural evolution that occurs from time to time. The following represents only a small sampling of the potentials that occur under this cycle, however, through focusing in on this short list of possibilities, one can extrapolate the forthcoming potentials that wait in the decade ahead.

                    Technological Innovation and Changing Infrastructure

                    When Uranus receives a major aspect from the other outer planets of Neptune and Pluto, technological innovation tends to take a large leap forward. That is, the acceleration of technological progress when Uranus is in alignment to Neptune and Pluto is noticeably heightened and quickened. During these times, novelty and technological improvement take a discontinuous leap forward, and societies have to adapt very quickly to the radical technological and scientific advances that are occurring. Uranus alignments to Neptune and Pluto tend to revolutionize technology; the steady and staid progress of evolving technology during typical times is overturned and overthrown.

                    Reviewing the last two conjunctions between Uranus and the other two outer planets, we can observe the increasing velocity of technological progress. In the decade of the 1990’s, Uranus and Neptune formed a rare conjunction. During this time and seemingly from out of nowhere, a technology that had its origins in the 1960’s, the Internet, literally revolutionized global culture and economics. Although the integration and development of the Internet and its potential is still very much evolving, the liberation and creative birth time—the extraordinary novelty and originality of the Internet—has occurred.

                    Like the 1990’s, the Uranus conjunction to Pluto in the 1960’s also witnessed extraordinary technological revolutions and quantum leaps forward in innovation. The most stunning and obvious example of this period is witnessed in the golden age of space exploration. Unparalleled in terms of its scope and advancement, the 1960’s saw incredible breakthroughs in space exploration from the deployment of the first satellites to the crowning achievement of sending a man to the Moon. However, the 1960’s also realized science and technical accomplishments that had more bearing on day-to-day reality. Commercial computers became viable for the first time, the workforce in Europe, Asia and the United States moved increasingly into white-collar jobs demanding technological skills, and consumer lifestyles embraced to a higher degree than ever before a hi-tech world.

                    When reviewing cycles involving Uranus and the outer planets, the conclusion can be drawn that technological and industrial progress take giants leaps forward in their momentum. In particular, the Uranus-Pluto cycle makes sweeping changes in the technological and industrial landscape and the backdrop in which we live irrevocably changes.


                    The Return of Eroticism and New Levels of Sexual Expression

                    When Uranus makes hard aspect to Pluto, our collective relationship to sexuality changes. Pluto may be thought to rule the sexual centers inside of us. Physiologically, we may think of Pluto as having association with the reproductive and limbic systems, with their biological imperatives to procreate and reproduce. More esoterically, we may think of Pluto as having an association with the lower charkas, particularly the second chakra. When Uranus forms a hard alignment to Pluto, awareness, stimulation, and excitation occurs in our collectively owned sexual energy and the reverberations and manifestations are profound. Uranus aligning with Pluto acts doubly as a liberator of sexual energy—the release and excitation of sexual centers—but also makes us profoundly more aware of our sexual natures as well.

                    A look at the last two eras in which Uranus and Pluto were in hard aspect will illustrate the sexual dynamism of the alignments. Certainly, one of the first associations one has of the sixties was the sexual experimentation and liberation that was occurring at the time. The repressive and strict codes of conduct that ruled sexuality and gender throughout the decades prior to the sixties were rebelled against as a burgeoning libido and primal life force began to culturally intensify. This rising tide of sexual liberation could be mirrored everywhere in the cultural discourse of the time. The sixties commenced with the introduction of the birth control pill which allowed sexuality to be cut from the umbilical cord of reproduction. To compliment the sexual liberating technology, attitudes and mores toward sex shifted rapidly and deeply at this time. What once was taboo became tolerated; What once was prohibited now became permitted. Promiscuity and free love experimentation were no longer relegated to a small underground minority but were embraced by an entire generation of youth.

                    However, more than just a decade of sexual liberation and awakening, new levels of heightened eroticism could be witnessed in the entire cultural panorama of the time. Most noticeably, mainstream cinema began to integrate material that was much more sexually erotic and explicit in nature, ultimately leading to the creation of the rating system at the end of the decade. Eroticism in movies was not reserved for the exploitation films of the era but was incorporated into all genres: from action movies (the popular James Bond series) to science fiction (One Million Years B.C.); from horror (Psycho; Hammer film productions) to comedy (The Graduate). Yet movies were arguably only a reflection of what was going on a deeper level of the collective psyche as all outlets of popular culture were, as author Aurthur Marwick suggests, “rejoicing the natural attributes of the body.”(1)

                    Witnessing a square between Pluto and Uranus, the 1930’s, like the 1960’s, also was remarkable for its heightening of eroticism and challenges to sexual mores of its day. As the androgynous “flapper” style of the 1920’s went into the decline, a new, more sexually potent fashion—and the birth of the moniker “bombshell”—gripped the collective. Due mainly to nude scenes of famous starlets like Hedy Lamarr and Myrna Loy and the sexual explicit monologues of Mae West films, The Hays code was a moral backlash which strictly enforced what could and could not be shown in movies.(2) However, even as the movie industry controlled a new sexuality that was emerging on onscreen, they could not repress the emerging cultural eroticism. The 1930’s saw the birth of the two-piece bathing suit for women, the acceptance of sexual investigation in academia through the Kinsey Report, and an escalating but temporary leniency toward sexual behavior.

                    Brilliance in Artistic Expression and the Revitalization of Pop Culture

                    Of all the recollections that are to be evoked of the 1960’s by those that experienced the decade, quite possibly the easiest and most accessible memories are attached to the music and art of the time. It is truly through art and music that archetypes receive their greatest and most vibrant expression, and the decade reflects the combination of Uranus and Pluto remarkably. In music, one only need to conjure reminiscences of the beginning chords to Jimi Hendrix’s “Purple Haze,” the thunderous opening riff to “Layla,” the tumultuous crescendo to the Beatles “A Day in the Life,” or the passionate, soulful voice of Janis Joplin. All these instances capture the power and creative brilliance of the Uranus-Pluto synthesis. In the visual arts and film, unforgettable images pervade from the period: The harnessing of technology in the “Dawn of Man” sequence in 2001: A Space Odyssey, the wild editing and camera movement in Midnight Cowboy, the explosive color in Roy Lichtenstein’s pop art, or the shocking experimentations from Andy Warhol.

                    Through both visual arts and music, we see the combination of Uranus and Pluto expressed transparently: The creative, rebellious mental fire of Uranus meets with the passionate, soulful, and intense vibrations of Pluto. The composite effect is extraordinary, leading not only to revolutions in art and music, but to the most powerful and brilliant creativity possible. It is no wonder that, aside from its chaotic wildness and frenzy, that Uranus and Pluto are so associated with peak experiences and collective mania.

                    The preceding hard aspects between Uranus and Pluto before the 1960’s also show the powerful and creative stirrings of the combination. In the dancehalls of Harlem was birthed Swing, a genre, like Rock, that would profoundly influence pop culture. As the Uranus-Pluto square of the 1930’s reached its tightest orb, Swing possessed American culture. As critic Gary Giddins writes, “Swing music was an electrifying development in American popular culture…It…unleashed forces that, I think, people didn’t know existed.”(3) The start of the century witnessed an opposition between Uranus and Pluto and, like Rock and Swing after it, Ragtime was a musical phenomenon. With its infectious syncopations and incredibly catchy hooks, Ragtime started a short-lived but undeniable cultural obsession.

                    The combination of Uranus and Pluto—mesmerizing, powerful, and wickedly creative—creates a sort of phenomenal grip on the popular imagination. More than just correlating with fads or trends, Uranus-Pluto times are associated with manias (as in“Beatlemania”) crazes(“the latest craze”), and rages(“it’s all the rage”).Thus, the archetypal energy of the combination is very much responsible for injecting a pulse into dormant or dying cultural expressions. Given its Promethean intensity, the Uranus-Pluto phenomenon is undeniable in its extraordinary genius and force.

                    Holding the Larger Framework

                    The 1960’s may seem like a curious anomaly in these rather conservative and even-tempered times. However, astrology illuminates the cyclical nature of history and demonstrates the recurrence of archetypal patterns that lie beneath the stream of cultural evolution. Given this perspective, the 1960’s must seen as a seed or birth time, a time which rebelled against cultural norms of the day and which liberated, awakened, and excited new potentials to replace dying and outworn modes of expression. If the conjunction between Uranus and Pluto is to symbolize an origin of new values and modes of expression, then the subsequent square alignment between Uranus and Pluto—occurring between 2008 through 2018—is symbolic of the struggle to manifest and midwife the potentials of the conjunction in a more enduring and effectual manner.

                    As exciting, dynamic, and creative are the potentials of Uranus-Pluto times, they are also highly chaotic, destabilizing, and even destructive. This essay has highlighted some of the more positive potentials of the Uranus-Pluto combination, however, as extraordinarily powerful and profoundly liberating these eras can be, they are also “crazy-making,” undermining, and highly disorienting. The sciences of chaos and complexity teach us that in order for a system to evolve and survive, stasis and equilibrium are not the answer. On the contrary, when pushed far-from-equilibrium, systems are forced to experiment, challenge, and create, often coming up with brilliant and novel solutions and new ways of relating. Uranus-Pluto times push cultures to the edge of chaos, forcing growth, change, and novelty. May you live in interesting times!

                    (1) Marwick, Arthur. The Sixties. (18)
                    (2) In his book, Pre-Code Hollywood, Sex, Immorality, and Insurrection in American Cinema, author Thomas Doherty argues that Hollywood films between 1930-1934 were at their wildest, sexiest, and most violent.
                    (3) www.pbs.org/jazz/time/ti...epression.htm

                    >
                    • <An Alignment for Our Times:
                      2010

                      by Bill Streett
                      1/13/04
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                      The beginning of the next decade has received much attention by futurists, metaphysicians, and historians of ancient civilizations. This brief but important period of time is considered by many to signal either a leap of human evolution, an exponential increase in creativity, or a time of dramatic societal change. Arguably, this time period is receiving more attention than the beginning of the millennium a few years ago as we began the new century.
                      Astrology also suggests that this brief time period will be an important one, as a dramatic alignment between Saturn, Pluto, and Uranus constellates at this time. Specifically, Saturn, Pluto, and Uranus form what is called a “T-Square” in which the three planets form an isosceles right triangle. Although forming an exact T-Square in the year 2010, the alignment will certainly be potent in its manifestations for a year or two on either side of 2010.

                      Throughout history, when Saturn, Pluto, and Uranus form hard alignments(1) such as a T-Square, a time of socio-economic and political destabilization, tension, and contraction arise. Any hard alignment involving these planets suggests a period of stress where growth and evolution is demanded yet hard to achieve. On one hand, the alignment represents a stalemate between opposing forces, and, on the other, the alignment represents a time where pressure, hardship, and frustration ultimately give birth to something radically new. Out of this alignment arises a new order, where the old order disintegrates and gives rise to new social, economic, and political visions and movements.

                      A cursory look at the planetary archetypes involved can explain why these times tend to be so challenging and destabilizing. Saturn symbolizes tradition, order, and limits; for all intents and purposes, Saturn represents the establishment at any given point in time. In many ways, Uranus is in complete contrast to Saturn’s order and tradition. Uranus symbolizes humanitarian progress and freedoms relative to Saturn’s restrictions and traditions. Archetypally, Uranus ushers in new changes, a heightened renewal of creativity, new reforms, and new ideals to aspire to. A person aligned with the archetype of Uranus tends to be more visionary, more idealistic, and unbound from the limits, traditions, social expectations and conservative sensibility that defines the person more attuned with the archetypal Saturn.

                      Arguably Pluto is the most difficult archetype to define, particularly in a limited space. Writing about Pluto is applying a rational process to a symbol that is almost wholly irrational. In a simplistic way, Pluto represents the primal, primitive survival instincts that drive and compel individual and social evolution onward. What can be expressed is that Pluto is an analogous to a will to power, which often implies a ‘power over’ or dominion over something or someone. Seen more as a process versus a steady state, Pluto symbolizes powerful times of transformation and change that occur at a fundamental level. Both terrifying and cathartic, Plutonic events are the eruption of processes that have long been gestating underground and hidden from collective consciousness.

                      When these planetary symbols come together in hard aspect, they are “forced to negotiate their differences” and the cross talk between these archetypes is not always polite nor productive. During these times, the socio-political dimensions of the collective approach conflict, if not crisis and breakdown. During these critical junctures in time, prevailing modes of economic and political discourse are pushed far-from-equilibrium and mounting tensions that have been ignored or repressed due to limitations of the current socio-political paradigm reach a breaking point. Simultaneously, new alternatives that range from enlightened progress to regressive barbarism rise to cope with the ensuing crises and difficulties of the time. During the period of the alignment, the problems and crises are often exaggerated or rendered more intense; real progress, forward momentum, or breakthroughs toward the challenges presented manifest after the alignment subsides.

                      Twice in the twentieth century have all three planets aligned in hard aspect: once in the early 1930s and again in the middle part of the 1960s. Certainly, these times were crucial in constructing the socio-political makeup of the decades that followed and were arguably the most dynamic and tumultuous years of the previous century. A look at the dynamics of these years will help to understand the themes and possibilities that lay ahead in 2010.

                      Late 1930-1932: Saturn-Uranus-Pluto T-Square
                      This T-Square in the Cardinal Signs of Capricorn, Aries, and Cancer was the symbol of economic breakdown in the Western economies. Astrologically speaking, we have an instance of the quality of dearth or scarcity associated with Saturn being ignited, empowered, and intensified by the outer planets of Uranus and Pluto. In the United States and Europe, unemployment rates reached their highest levels of the century and many people in industrialized countries experienced the bare subsistence levels typically associated with the Third World. The Great Depression effected all countries; only communist Soviet Union was able to increase industrial production levels at this time.

                      However, this T-Square symbol of Uranus, Saturn, and Pluto is a complex one, and one would be negligent not to broaden the scope of perspective to include how Pluto and Uranus were each adding their own archetypal dimension to the time at hand. Although the Crash in 1929 and subsequent Depression were sudden, many factors were at work years before the Depression to bring it into manifestation. The industrial boom of the 1920s helped to mask large and looming difficulties in industrialized economies. Moreover, throughout the 1920s, national economies tried to return to pre-World War One strategies that were hopelessly insufficient. Thus, although unexpected, the Depression was the result of many hidden variables that erupted at once. It is the nature of the archetype of Pluto to lay dormant for many years only to manifest in great power, not unlike a volcano or an earthquake.

                      The beginning of the decade also saw the emergence of the darker aspects of the collective psyche in the appearance of fascist governments, and in particular, Nazism. The scapegoating, lust for political dominance, paranoid obsession with total dictatorial control, and manipulation of mass consciousness through propaganda seen in the Third Reich are all manifestations of the lower qualities of Pluto. With Saturn and Uranus aspecting Pluto at this time, the ‘return of repressed’ elements from the shadow of the unconscious reared its ugly head.

                      The workings of Uranus can be observed through the quality of accelerated change of the period, as Uranus is always associated with sudden change and reversals. Certainly, the unexpected decline in the world economic situation is the most apparent corollary with this quality of Uranus. However, the acceleration of changing conditions is also noted in socio-political conditions of the day, most notably in Germany. During the time period of the T-Square, the Nazi party rose from a tiny minority with little over ten seats in the German Reichstag to becoming the majority party of the German political system—an extraordinary, sudden twist of events in European history.

                      1964-mid 1967: Saturn opposition to Uranus and Pluto
                      If the 1930s alignment brought out the face of Saturn dealing with scarcity and lack, the 1960s opposition brought out the side of Saturn dealing with convention, established values, and tradition. The period of the early 1960s saw a rise in new and unconventional ways of being in all facets of society, however, it was the mid-1960s where the real struggle between old and new, authority and youth, convention and progress came to a head. To the establishment, the wave of rising countercultural tendencies of the late 1950s and early 1960s was not going to influence and permeate cultural values without a showdown and standoff. In nearly every cultural and political arena, the mid-1960s witnessed the old guard of tradition tensely poised against the new vanguard of countercultural and progressive sympathies.

                      As Lyndon Johnson, Martin Luther King, and Malcolm X pushed the frontier of civil rights, race riots erupted all over the United States. In South Africa, as the government tightened its segregationist apartheid policies, resistance led by Mandela and others grew stronger. With American forces in Viet Nam intensifying, protests and civil unrest arose against a war deemed unexplainable and unviable by the majority of the American public. As self-expression and intolerance of communism increased inside the Eastern Bloc, the Soviet regime enforced harsher and stricter controls against dissention.

                      The greatest demonstration of tension between social and political opposites was not in the West but in China. With his hope of eradicating a rising tide against communism, Mao Tse-Tung initiated his great Cultural Revolution—a veritable civil war in which China’s political and social history and future were at stake. Mao’s enemies were not so much a political party or group but rather values, including his list of four olds: old customs, old habits, old culture, and old thinking. Anything associated with capitalist sympathies and traditional Chinese culture was to be annihilated, and Mao’s Red Guard was happy to oblige his extremism.

                      During the mid-1960s, progressive idealism and entrenched traditions were in heightened dialectical tension—and the main astrological alignment of the times perfectly mirrored the standoffs across the globe. Saturn, representing order, tradition, authority, fear of change, and restrictions was symbolically and literally opposite Uranus and Pluto, representing change, disorder, youthful idealism, rebellion, liberation of the oppressed and suppressed, and self-expression.

                      The Aftermath
                      The above examples demonstrate that when Uranus, Pluto, and Saturn form hard alignments, an era of socio-political destabilization and heightened cultural tensions manifest. During the early 1930s, an age of economic scarcity pressured the rise of new governments and new economic policies across the globe. In the mid-1960s, ideological tensions reached their peak surrounding issues of war, race, politics, self-expression, and economics. These alignments represent global pressure cookers wherein crucial socio-political issues smelt.

                      Out of this crucible, new ideologies, governments, policies, reforms, and social movements are born—and often the offspring of these alignments are a mixed blessing. After the crises of the Saturn, Pluto, and Uranus alignment of the early 1930s, the Nazi regime established its legacy of hatred, terror, and tyrannical cruelty, and much of Europe embraced fascism and totalitarian control as an answer to the economic woes of the early part of the decade. However, the destabilization and catastrophes of the early 1930s also spawned innovation, reform, and progressive humanitarianism. FDR’s “New Deal”—albeit controversial—reformed business, labor, and the American Presidency to a greater degree than any presidential policy since. Sweden—hit as hard as any nation during the worldwide depression of the time—established the very model of social democratic government and initiated public and political reforms that were way ahead of its time.


                      The Saturn, Pluto, Uranus Alignment of 2010
                      Given historical precedence and the archetypal dynamics involved, The Saturn, Pluto, and Uranus T-Square of 2010 should coincide with a period of great socio-political upheaval and destabilization, if not crisis. This alignment is arguably one of the most important astrological signatures of the first half of this century, certainly of the first three decades. This T-Square symbolically represents a turning point in which economic, cultural, and political difficulties of the last decades come to a head and demand resolution.

                      Out of this alchemical vessel of 2010 should arise significantly original and unprecedented social and political movements and reform. Certainly, there is a hope that what will emerge out the tensions of this time will produce greater freedoms, tolerance, peace, and prosperity. However, to remain true to past patterns, we can only say that what will materialize we be both progressive and regressive, tolerant and fascist, peaceful and oppositional—polarities that grow stronger.

                      If astrology is to grant anything to collective knowledge, it is the visionary capacity to see through the contingencies of history and see into forces and energies that inform and are in dialogue with our collective evolution. Whatever the period surrounding 2010 may bring—environmental catastrophe, financial collapse, political reformation and counter-reformation (or any combination thereof)—it is best not to see the events as an isolated crisis. Rather, astrology suggests that the events around 2010 should be seen upon a continuum in which tension and problems of the era demand and create growth and evolution. Thus, the astrological paradigm is not the province of Cassandras who intuit gloom and doom but is a way of seeing that potential greatness and maturity doesn’t come without growing pains and birth pangs.


                      (1) “hard alignments” for this article refer to the opposition and the 90-degree alignment, or square.

                      >
                      • of course thats just one way of looking at it. you can view symbols from many perspectives.
                        • <Throughout history, when Saturn, Pluto, and Uranus form hard alignments(1) such as a T-Square, a time of socio-economic and political destabilization, tension, and contraction arise.>

                          Care to let us know about the last "hard alignments", when they were and what the problems were, Elo?
                          • 1966 and 1931, and some of the years around then - a cycle of change like this will normaly last around 6-7 years, but this one is much more significant as we have been aligned to the centre of our galaxey, which is a 26,000 year cycle, very rare, nobody knows quite how long that one takes - much of the Mayan knowledge has been lost, a lot was intentionaly destroyed by the Spanish, but the best pundits on 2012 (who are a Phd bilogost who used to work on cancer research for the World Helath Organistaion and archelogist and such like, very educated people) think around a 30-40 year period of itense global change.

                            Whats interesting is both America AND China have very big pluto transit squaring there 3 plants around there sun's - the most important part of both countries charts, over exactly the same peroid, Americas started last year, Chinas will start next year, both lasting around 7 years.
                            • Just to clarify, thats 30-40 years around the year of 2012 as a centre focal point of change, though personaly i think more like 30 years either side.

                              The Mayans by the were were expert astronomers, they chatered some small planets or astreoids and things that Nasa only discovered in the early 80's, you can have an open mind or not to the significance of these things but one thing you cant dispute is there sophisticated knowledge of the cosmos in astronomical terms and the complexity of much of there culture.

                              There "king" by the way, was there head holy man who woud trip out of his head on loads of mushrooms, they made the hippies of 67 look tame !

                              The key thing the were into was astronomgy, astrology, and time - specificaly cycles of time that realted to evolution.

                              this 2012 time period they belived was a very big step in the eveolution of life on this planet, in other words the evolution of mankind, in other words, the evoloution of socity, our development, our cultural,- especialy the way we collectivly think. policaly, spirtualy, and especialy with issue to do with our connection to the earth like the enviorment - probably the signle most dominate feature of it.

                              I belive the interent is a key part of it, like the new nerve wires much of this change can flow through.

                              But when I said "The next 100 years is the most important time in life on this planet since the single cell first formed 4 billion years ago" i wasnt quoting a new age pundit but James Martin, one of the worlds leading scientist, head of the James Martin institutue, he was Head of R&D at IBM is a Phd Cambridge Proffesor, set up one of the worlds leading IT consultancy, and is a billionaire.

                              The James Martin Isntitute pools intellectual talent from the best and most creative Universities like Oxford in England, Berkly and Harvard in America to come up with ideas, solutions and inovations to improve mankinds future and present.

                              If you read his book you can see the power science and technology is going to give us to dramticly change the world only just begun in the last century, this century, especialy over the next 30 years, there will be lots of dramtic breakthroughs, in energy, medicine, production and nano technology, bio - science, the power of computers will expand enormously greatly enhancing the power of computer models greatly enhancing the power of science right across the field.
                              • <It is sometimes believed[attribution needed] that the multiple "gods" represented nothing more than a mathematical explanation of what they observed. Each god was literally just a number or an explanation of the effects observed by a combination of numbers from multiple calendars. Among the many types of Maya calendars which were maintained, the most important included a 260-day cycle, a 365-day cycle which approximated the solar year, a cycle which recorded lunation periods of the Moon, and a cycle which tracked the synodic period of Venus.

                                Philosophically, the Maya believed that knowing the past meant knowing the cyclical influences that create the present, and by knowing the influences of the present one can see the cyclical influences of the future.

                                ...Maya gods were not separate entities like Greek gods. The gods had affinities and aspects that caused them to merge with one another in ways that seem unbounded. There is a massive array of supernatural characters in the Maya religious tradition, only some of which recur with regularity. Good and evil traits are not permanent characteristics of Maya gods, nor is only "good" admirable. What is inappropriate during one season might come to pass in another since much of the Maya religious tradition is based on cycles and not permanence.

                                >

                                they had a very sophisticated calander system - as it says above, 4 different ones, and some with cycles as big as 5,000 years - they were very preocupied with Cycles of time that related to there very precise astronomical observations, developed over thousands of years.

                                2012 they belived was the big end of one cycle of dvelopment and tbe begining of the new one. Its often been twisted in popular new age or internet circles to mean the end of the world and stuff like that but there is nothing to support such claims in real Mayan Archeaology.

                                en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya...#Astronomy
                                • by the way whats interesting is the 260 days cycle calander they used to use as well as our 365 solar calander, the 260 one they used more and this relates to the time of human gestatistion from conception to birth, and interestingly it reoccurs in nature quite a lot.

                                  The 5,260 year cycle that will complete and start again around 2012 is a mulitple of this 260 year time cycle that they used for lots of there caluclations of time cycles.

                                  but this 5,260 year cycle also aligns with a large 26,000 year alginment of a earth with the centre of our galexy.
                                  • last time we had the Pluto Uranus aspects -

                                    <Born In The 60s Children-Uranus Conjunct Pluto

                                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                    There is an important mini-generation reaching maturity, all born between 1962 and 1968. This is the Uranus Conjunct Pluto mini-generation and they are here to shift the paradigm!

                                    www.skyscript.co.uk/uranusaspects.html

                                    Uranus fosters change and innovative breakthroughs. Pluto relates to political power. When these planets are in contact with each other, political structures will be shaken and disturbed in order to allow new methods of government regulatory principles to emerge.

                                    www.jung.org/tarnas%20book%20review.html

                                    The most recent examples of Uranus/Pluto cycle are:

                                    1. 1787-1798 - Uranus Opposite Pluto. This was the time of the French Revolution, which Tarnas describes as "an upsurge of tremendous rebellious and liberating energies sweeping the world, with radical change affecting many societies." Also during this time Mary Wollstonecraft's published A Vindication of the Rights of Women. In the US, Britain and France there was the first widespread call for the abolition of slavery. The US Constitution and the French Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen were written during this period.

                                    2. 1845 to 1856 - Uranus Conjunct Pluto. A wave of revolutionary upheavals in almost every capital of Europe such as Paris, Berlin, Vienna, Budapest, Dresden, Baden, Prague, Rome, Milan occurred during these years. The Communist Manifeso and Thoreau's On the Duty of Civil Disobedience were written at this time. Frederick Douglass and Harriet Tubman led antislavery efforts in the US and the women's rights movement began with Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony. There were also upheavals in China.

                                    3. 1896-1907 Uranus Opposite Pluto. There was a rise of radical labor movements throughout Europe and North American and also the founding of socialist parties in England, the US, Russia and France. Emma Goldman, Eugene Debs, Rosa Luxemburg, Upton Sinclair and other reformers and radical leaders were active at this time. Other revolutionary activities were the Boxer Rebellion in China, the rise of revolutionary Chinese nationalist movements and the civil disobedience movement led by Gandhi.

                                    4. 1960-1972 - Uranus Conjunct Pluto. This period, as the examples above, coincided precisely with a time of tremendous innovation and revolutionary impulses across the world, with both great social upheaval and liberating change occurring in many countries on the planet. During that time in the United States we had the civil rights movement, the women's rights movement, founding of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, the Freedom Riders, numerous demonstrations and marches, the civil rights acts of 1965 and 1968 and the hippies. There was also civil unrest all over the globe. Tarnas predicts similar upheavals and liberating energies for the next fifteen years starting in 2007 with the square of Uranus and Pluto. The transit will bring about the next evolution of the energies that were started in the Uranus/Pluto conjunction period of 1960-1972

                                    mysticwicks.com/showthread.php

                                    . >

                                    Of course Obama is born with this aspect in his chart, the first President of America to have been born in that time period.

                                    Astrologers - the good ones, and there are some, have been saying since the 60's that when the next pluto uranus cycle comes, those born under the previous 60's cycle will help change teh world under the energy, they are just then entering postions of real power

                                    But real proper knoweldege of the Mayan stuff has only been understood since the last 10 or 20 years.



                                  • "...of course thats just one way of looking at it. you can view symbols from many perspectives."

                                    Yes, and most are complete bullshit. You said something about "reading a book" previously. Okay, I dare you to read Alan Sokal's "Beyond the Hoax" and come back and defend this stuff. Yes, he only has PhDs in applied mathematics and quantum physics from Oxford and Harvard, but he tries to use small words for us idiots.
                            • <1966 and 1931, and some of the years around then>

                              "and some of the years around then"? Really? So...I mean, what happened that was so bad at that time. '66? Hmm. What happened in '66? '31? Hmm. Wanna let us know what happened then, and in those "years around then"?

                              <but the best pundits on 2012 (who are a Phd bilogost who used to work on cancer research for the World Helath Organistaion and archelogist and such like, very educated people) think around a 30-40 year period of itense global change.>

                              I see. I see.

                              <Whats interesting is both America AND China have very big pluto transit squaring there 3 plants around there sun's>

                              So, how does a country get to know its astrology?

                              <The Mayans by the were were expert astronomers,>

                              I see.

                              <There "king" by the way, was there head holy man who woud trip out of his head on loads of mushrooms, they made the hippies of 67 look tame !>

                              If you're trying to inspire confidence, you're doing a crappy job. PLUS - we don't know SHIT about them... You're just repeating hearsay.

                              <The 5,260 year cycle that will complete and start again around 2012 is a mulitple of this 260 year time cycle that they used for lots of there caluclations of time cycles.>

                              Gee, could this be where they came up with this 2012 number? I mean, maybe it's just ....................simple math...?
                              • <Gee, could this be where they came up with this 2012 number? I mean, maybe it's just ....................simple math...? >

                                no its maths based on time cycles that matched both observations of the planets and cycles the obvserved in real life. These observations were made with great patience over hundreds of years by many skilled people in a gigantic operation equal to the erection of the Pyraimids - which have been found to be almost as precise in contruction by the way as a New York skyscraper.

                                There was loads happend in the 30's and 60's time, 60's was kenday, his assination, vietnam, civil rights in america, birth of "summer of love" which actuly happened in berkely 66 - not 67 as qutie a few think, happend bank on one of the hits of the two planets, when there locked into an aspect, of course that had a profound influence on the culture mostly of the west, but eventualy on the whole world eventualy.

                                For a start it had a massive impact on peoples sexual repressions and we are still seeing that play out to the day, even in countries like Iran.

                                Expect something of the kind again, that will push boundries much freerer. Thats the thing about these big change transits, the affect many aspects of life.

                                but look at this on the 30's transition -


                                • <Uranus-Pluto: It's Time for Big, New Ideas

                                  There are strong parallels, both historical and astrological, between the present and the late 20s/early 30s. In the 30s there was a worldwide depression brought about by insufficient regulation of the financial markets. In 2009 we are entering a worldwide recession, if not depression, and again it has been brought about by insufficient regulation of the financial markets. In 1932 there was a Cardinal square from Uranus to Pluto, 3 years after the Wall St Crash. In 2012 there will be another Cardinal t-square from Uranus to Pluto, 4 years after the financial turmoil of 2008.

                                  Most of the major powers have significant points in the early to mid Cardinal signs, such as the US Sun at 14 Cancer, and the UK Sun at 9 Capricorn. So just as the Uranus-Pluto square of the 30s wrought profound change across the western world, so too will the coming square. Cardinality is about taking action and about initiating, so we are likely to see a new world come into being.

                                  There is an astrological difference, however, between the 1930s and now, which is that the 1930s Uranus-Pluto square was the closing square of a 104 year cycle, whereas the 2012 square will be the opening square of a new cycle that began with the conjunction of the 1960s.*

                                  So the new world that the 1930s square brought into being was at the same time the concluding phase, the death throes, of an old cycle. It may seem to us that WWII followed by the post-war world was very much the destruction of an old world followed by a huge new beginning, in which a very new and wealthier world order was created. But the astrology tells us that this was not so, that yes it was very big and very new, but at the same time it constituted the death throes of an old order.

                                  I find this an interesting point, because it seems to contradict our experience. But I think this is only so if we look too narrowly – if, perhaps, we are too enchanted by the western democratic, capitalist model. Though this model continued to thrive for some decades after the 1960s, there were at the same time seeds sown during the 1960s, and seeds take time to grow. The 1960s were also a time of mass protests against western militarism and capitalism. There was a feeling of dissatisfaction on the part of a lot of people with what we had become, and would go on becoming.

                                  I think that the economic collapse (Pluto) we are currently seeing creates space for big new ideas(Uranus). As Uranus approaches its square with Pluto, we will start to see some big new ideas coming into the collective, that have resonances going back to the conjunction of the 1960s. The Jupiter-Neptune conjunction – big dream - of 2009 may also help form some of them.

                                  The 1929 Crash led directly to the Great Depression, they were part of the same process. In 1929, Uranus and Pluto were 10 degrees off a square, so I think we need to see that degree of separation as valid. This July Uranus and Pluto will be just 5 degrees off a square, so a fortiori this square is already very much with us, destroying our present reality in a big way, but also starting to provide the inspiration for some big new ideas.

                                  We may, for example, see a resurgence of Communism. I was watching a French philosopher being interviewed on TV, and in response to this idea, the interviewer said isn’t that old hat, a dated 20th century idea that’s been proved wrong? And the philosopher said no, we just got the application wrong, but as an idea it still remains valid. But, he added, we also need some new ideas as well.

                                  The capitalist model we have been living under is taking a hammering. The politicians are having to drop their ideologies and be intensely pragmatic in order to save the world economy. So space is opening up for new ideas. If the suffering were to reach the levels seen in the 1930s in say Germany, then those ideas could be military and fascist. Fortunately, the politicians are in some respects doing a better job than in the 1930s, for the banks are not being allowed to go under. I think this means the new ideas are more likely to creative.

                                  What these ideas will be remains to be seen. I’m not going to try to second-guess outer planets! But it wouldn’t surprise me if part of the mix involves a desire to create an economics of sufficiency and fairness rather than gratuitous, competitive expansion; and a desire to create a different kind of democracy, where the electorate is given real choices rather than vague promises.

                                  I think that current events are bringing us closer to a politics of survival, rather than a politics of excess. In the West, it is a long time since we have had to worry about survival. Though survival issues can create deep fear and irrationality, they have also been a normal part of existence for most people throughout history. It is healthy, it keeps your feet on the ground, it helps you realise what is important. That is why people look back fondly to wartime Britain, tough as it was. Many people were healthier and happier then. New ideas formed on this basis stand a good chance of being down-to-earth and sane, but nonetheless possibly revolutionary. Like the Labour government of 1945 in the UK. There was a deep desire for change coming out of the wartime years, and the new government delivered radical change, despite a wrecked economy: the creation of the welfare state, the dismantling of the Empire, the nationaliation of many basic industries.

                                  *In the 1930s, Uranus was in Aries and Pluto was in Cancer, so Uranus was approaching Pluto, and would finally catch up 30 years later, completing a cycle that began in 1851. What we will have in 2012 is Pluto in Capricorn and Uranus again in Aries (we are experiencing the Uranus Return of the 1930s!), and Uranus therefore moving away from Pluto

                                  www.blogcatalog.com/blog/ast...4049e464b

                                  >
                              • <PLUS - we don't know SHIT about them... You're just repeating hearsay. >

                                Not true, we know an awful lot now actuly, Archeology has really developed, if you message our resident Mayan Harved educated Proffesor, Proffesor Hoopes, youll find him as a friend on my profile, im sure he'd be happy to answer any questions.

                                His knowledge could probably fill and enclycolpedia Britanica !
                                • anyway thats it for today with the astorlogy lesson, read through, keep and open mind but take it or leave it, up to you.

                                  if your off a more scientific bent you should really try James Martin's book, one of the best scientist alive today -

                                  www.amazon.co.uk/Meaning-2...1903919843

                                  www.jamesmartin.com/about/

                                  good video talk by him ive just found here -

                                  it.truveo.com/The-Transit...d/2201042842


                                  • "...anyway thats it for today with the astorlogy lesson, read through, keep and open mind but take it or leave it, up to you."

                                    Really, do you promise? No. I do. I will. And, yes it is.

                                    If you actually read all this, you are wasting your valuable time. Life is too short to spend it on silly superstition, just because you are following the natural human instinct to seek patterns in nature. Of course, perhaps it is merely a cut and paste attempt to waste everybody else's time? How diabolical.
                                    • Erik, you really have a bit of a bigotry problem dont you, let others decide. Your critcisim says nothing abut what ive been discussing other than dispalying your prejudces and closed mind.

                                      Science is just a master of observation of pyhsical patterns, the mayans sophisticated and painstainking obverstion of the celestitial bodies obviously comes under this.

                                      Anway my post was for the benift of others - if you dont like this thread fine by my but why stick around buddy ? You keep saying tis a waste of time, and yet we have to waste our time listening to you whining.

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