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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 6:26 AMthis should be interesting
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Unsu...
Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 7:30 AMThis all true and nothing about it is anti-Semitic. I'll repost the entire article in a few minutes. -
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 7:34 AMThe entire thing sounds like a load of all-too-common anti-semitic conspiracy theory.
So you stand by the article I take it. Thats pretty bold to claim that Jews are responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own people. -
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 7:38 AMA lot of terrible things happened during the holocaust, such circumstances should never be allowed to happen. -
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 7:39 AMYet government stands by while other horrors are perpetuated in Cambodia, Rwanda and Darfur. . -
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Unsu...
Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 8:02 AMIndeed, and the U.S. is the cause of many horrors in the world.
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Unsu...
Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 7:40 AMI don't claim, "Thats [sic] pretty bold to claim that Jews are responsible for killing 800,000 of thier [sic] own people." I'm much more specific to the Zionist movement, a movement that actually supported Hitler. This is not a "conspiracy theory", it is a fact backed by the evidence. I'll repost the entire article. -
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Unsu...
Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 7:45 AMHow Israel Promotes Anti-Semitism (Part 1)
In this mailing: Letter on Israel from Becky Johnson
and Response by Steve Argue.
Letter to Editor,
You have to go back and read your history books.
Palestine was the name the
British gave to the mandate they took over (in typical
British imperial fashion) from the crumbling Ottoman
Empire. Palestinians at the time included everyone
who lived there, including the Jews. Palestine ceased
to exist when Israel was formed in 1948. The plan
from the UN was to have the state of Palestine right
next to Israel. But all the Arab neighbors (and the
Arab population within the borders of the new state of
Israel) rejected this two state solution and responded
by out and out war waged on the Israelis.
The Palestinians (Arabs who live or lived within
the boundaries of Israel) didn't even start to call
themselves that until 1968--- twenty years after the
establishment of Israel. Basically the concept of
Palestine is a manufactured one to drum up support for
these Arabs and to decrease support for Israel by the
claim that Israel is on THEIR land.
Remember, the Arabs and muslims who did not flee in
1948, but stayed in Israel have full citizenship, have
freedom to practice their religion, own property,
vote, have representation in the Knesset, and compose
18% of the population.
There is no Palestine. And there never was except
as a British invention.
---Becky Johnson
Editor responds:
Actually history is one of my strong points. You
state that I need to consult my history books, yet you
make statements that are inarguably historically
incorrect. Palestine was in existence as a recognized
territory of the Ottoman Empire long before British
control and even before the beginnings of Jewish
colonization by the Zionist movement.
These inhabitants of the region also had Arab
nationalist sentiments that opposed the control of the
Ottoman Empire before the creation of the Zionist
State and have since opposed many of the U.S., French,
and British imposed kings, crown princes, emirs,
sheiks, etc. that Zionists like to claim represent the
aspirations of the Arab people.
Your attempt to deny a people of even the name of
their homeland is consistent with an ideology that
denies an entire people of the right to their
homeland. The fact that bloody repression and
horrible discrimination has driven the majority of
Palestinians from large parts of their homeland
without the right of return is not enough. The
Zionist movement wants to wipe away the rightful name
of the land they have conquered by re-writing history
and denying there ever was a Palestine.
From its beginnings in the eighteen hundreds the
Zionist movement had little concern for the Arab
inhabitants of the Palestinian land they would settle.
Instead they appealed to imperialist powers as
potential allies against the Arab people in setting up
their Zionist state. For example Zionist leader T.
Herzl stated around 1897: "If his majesty the Sultan
were to give us Palestine, we could undertake to
regulate Turkey's finances. For Europe, we would
constitute a bulwark against Asia down there; we would
be the advance post of civilization against barbarism.
As a neutral state, we would remain in constant touch
with all of Europe, which would guarantee our
existence" (from Rodinson, "Israel a Colonial Settler
State?").
By being neutral Herzl is obviously referring to
the Zionist dealings with powers of Europe and not to
the colonial "barbarians" already in and around the
land he would settle and conquer.
An Arab leader in Jerusalem named Nassif Bey
al-Khalidi who tried unsuccessfully to work out an
agreement between Arabs and the Zionist movement
warned the Zionists with the following statement, "Be
very careful, Messieurs Zionists, governments
disappear, but peoples remain. The Jewish immigrants
came to Palestine believing it to be a desolate,
sparsely inhabited country. They were too busy with
their own business and too ignorant of Arabic to
notice what was going on around them. Since it was
the Turks who ruled Palestine, they turned all their
attention toward the Turks. This did not make them
popular with the Arabs" (from Neville Mandel,
"Chapters of Arab-Jewish Diplomacy 1918-1922").
The Jewish immigrants never became integrated in
any way with the native Arab population. This was
true economically, politically, socially, and
linguistically. These Jewish immigrants were so
separate from the Palestinian people that they were
only Palestinian to the extent that they were
physically living in Palestine.
It took the weakening of the Sultan during the
First World War for Europe (specifically England) to
move in and grant the colonial framework for Jewish
colonization that aimed itself at the goal of an
exclusively Jewish state. This framework was set
forth in a British political charter in November 1917
called the Balfour Declaration which stated, "His
Majesty's government views with favor the
establishment in Palestine of a national home for the
Jewish people."
Within this framework an exclusive Jewish state was
the stated goal of all but a small minority in the
Zionist movement, a goal that obviously would be at
the expense of the Arab people already living in
Palestine. In order to placate the Palestinians,
however, the Balfour declaration stated, "it should be
clearly understood that nothing should be done which
may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the
non-Jewish communities in Palestine."
While Britain was trying to placate the Arabs
Zionist leader Jabotinsky was very clear on Zionist
intentions stating in 1923 in his Book the "Iron
Wall", "There can be no discussion of voluntary
reconciliation between us and the Arabs, not now, and
not in the foreseeable future. All well meaning
people, with the exception of those blind from birth,
understood long ago the complete impossibility of
arriving at a voluntary agreement with the Arabs of
Palestine for the transformation of Palestine from an
Arab country to a country with a Jewish majority.
Each of you has some understanding of the history of
colonization. Try to find even one example when the
colonization took place with the agreement of the
native population."
In understanding the existence of a Palestinian
people and the struggles yet to come Jabotinsky went
on to state, "They have the precise psychology we
have. They look upon Palestine with the same
instinctive love and fervor that any Aztec looked upon
his Mexico or any Sioux upon his prairie. Each people
will struggle against colonizers until the last spark
of hope that they can avoid the dangers of conquest
and colonization is extinguished. The Palestinians
will struggle in this way until there is hardly a
spark of hope."
Jabotinsky's view, and the policy that would later
be carried out against the Palestinians could not be
made any clearer than his following statement from the
same writing: "We can not give any compensation for
Palestine, neither to the Palestinians nor to the
other Arabs. Therefore a voluntary agreement is
inconceivable. All colonization, even the most
restricted, must continue in defiance of the native
population. Therefore it can continue and develop
only under the shield of force which comprises an Iron
Wall through which the Arab population can never break
through. This is our Arab policy. To formulate it
any other way would be hypocrisy."
In explaining the differences between Zionist
factions in dealing with the Palestinians Jabotinsky
stated, "Force must play its role - with strength and
without indulgence. In this, in this there are no
differences between our militarists and our
vegetarians. One prefers an Iron Wall of Jewish
bayonets; the other prefers an Iron Wall of English
bayonets."
On these issues Rabbi Judas L. Magnes, President of
the Hebrew University Jerusalem wrote, "by definition
a Jewish state means that Jews will govern other
people, other people who live in this Jewish
state…Jabotinsky knew this long ago. He was the
prophet of the Jewish state...In his early writings he
said: 'Has a people ever been known to give up its
territory of its own volition? Likewise, the Arabs of
Palestine will not renounce their sovereignty without
violence.'"
On the morals of Jabotinsky's plans and his desire
to extinguish all hopes of the Palestinian people he
is as clear in the "Iron Wall" as Hitler is of his
intentions in "Mein Kampf" with Jabotinsky stating:
"To the hackneyed reproach that this point of view is
unethical, I answer 'absolutely untrue.' This is our
ethic. There is no other ethic. As long as there is
the faintest hope for the Arabs to impede us they will
not sell these hopes - not for any sweet word nor for
any tasty morsel, because this is not a rabble but a
people, a living people. And no people makes such
enormous concessions on such fateful questions, except
when there is no hope left, until we have removed
every opening visible in the Iron Wall."
In 1940 Jabotinsky states in "The Jewish War
Front": "Since we have the moral authority for calmly
envisaging the exodus of the Arabs, we need not regard
the possible departure of 900,000 with dismay. Herr
Hitler has recently been enhancing the popularity of
population transfer."
While the Arabs of Palestine were extremely
tolerant of the Zionists who were moving in to take
their land and their hopes the Zionist movement was
never interested in forming any sort of alliance with
the Arab people. Instead the Zionist movement from
its inception was openly anti-Arab and
pro-imperialist, even though those same imperial
powers were the same ones who were carrying out
pogroms against the Jews in the ghettos across Europe.
This pro-imperialist policy included close relations
with the pogromist leaders of anti-Semitic Czarist
Russia who murdered tens of thousands of Jews, and
later Zionist support and deals that aided the fascist
death camps of Nazi Germany.
Jews, in fact, are victims of Zionism along side
Arabs. From the beginning of Hitler's seizure of
power in 1933 the Zionist movement lent their support
to the Nazis, support which lasted until at least 1944
when they aided Hitler's "final solution" in Hungary
killing 800,000 Jews. On the surface the idea of
Zionist relations with the Nazis may sound illogical
and seem made up. Those relations, however, are well
documented.
Hitler seized power in 1933 with a clear fascistic
program that called for the annihilation of all
socialists, communists, labor leaders, and Jews.
Despite this fact the Zionist Federation of Germany
sent the Nazi Party a memorandum on June 21, 1933
stating: "…a rebirth of national life such as is
occurring in German life … must also take place in the
Jewish national group. On the foundation of the new
[Nazi] state, which has established itself on the
principle of race, we wish to fit our community into
the total structure so that for us, too, in the sphere
assigned to us, fruitful activity for the Fatherland
is possible…." (Brenner, Zionism, pg. 48).
The policy of supporting Hitler was later upheld at
the World Zionist Organization Congress in 1933 where
a motion to take action against Hitler was defeated
240 to 43. Thus the Jewish boycott of the German
economy at a time of economic weakness and
vulnerability was broken with the World Zionist
Organization's Anglo Palestine Bank resuming trade.
In fact the World Zionist Organization became the
principal distributors of Nazi goods in Northern
Europe and the Middle East.
Feivel Polkes was a member of Zionist leader
Jabotinsky's Haganah militia. He was sent by
Jabotinsky to Berlin to inform Nazi leader Adolf
Eichman of his intention to spy for the S.S. in
exchange for the release of the money of German Jews
for use on the Zionist project. Zionist Feivel told
Nazi Eichman, "Jewish Nationalist Circles are very
pleased with the radical German policy, since the
strength of the Jewish population in Palestine would
be so far increased thereby that in the foreseeable
future the Jews would reckon upon numerical
superiority over the Arabs" (from Brenner, "Zionism"
pg. 99).
Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's minister of propaganda,
felt so fond of the Zionist movement and their close
working relations that he wrote a 12 part report in
Der Angriff (The Assault) praising the Zionist
movement and ordered a medallion struck with a
swastika on one side and the Zionist Star of David on
the other.
Collaboration included an agreement in Hungary
between Zionist agent Dr. Rudolph Kastner and Nazi
leader Adolph Eichman. Under the 1944 agreement the
Nazis would murder 800,000 Hungarian Jews without
Zionist interference and with complete silence from
the Zionist movement. In exchange 600 prominent Jews
would be freed from Hungary. The Nazis then opened up
a Rescue Department in Hungary headed by Kastner.
These facts were exposed by a survivor named Malchiel
Greenwald who was subsequently sued by the Israeli
government, sued by the same leaders that had
fashioned the deal made by Kastner in the first place.
Kastner's collaboration with the Nazis was
confirmed with the Israeli court stating, "The
sacrifice of the majority of the Jews, in order to
rescue the prominents was the basic element in the
agreement between Kastner and the Nazis. This
agreement fixed the division of the nation into two
unequal camps, a small fragment of prominents, whom
the Nazis promised Kastner to save, on the one hand,
and the majority of Hungarian Jews whom the Nazis
designated for death, on the other hand." (Judgment
given on June 22, 1955, Protocol of Criminal Case
124/53 in District Court, Jerusalem)
The Zionists subsequently ignored a plan drawn up
by the resistance that could have saved many, if not
most, of Hungary's Jews. The Zionist silence and lack
of action against Nazi atrocities in fact
characterizes their stance throughout the entire
holocaust. A plan complete with maps was drawn up
that would blow-up railroad tracks to the death camps
and crematoria and airdropped ammunition to the 80,000
Jews in Auschwitz. Part of the plan also included the
parachuting of saboteurs to blow up the Auschwitz
facility that was murdering 13,000 people a day. Had
the Zionist movement not been so intent on fighting
the Arabs rather than the real anti-Semite butchers of
Europe they could have gathered the resources to carry
out such operations. Likewise Great Britain and the
United States could have carried out the proposed
measures as well, but chose not to save the Jews and
felt no pressure from the silent Zionist movement to
do so.
This caused Rabbi Weismandel who had drawn up the
plans against Auschwitz to ask of the Zionists in July
1944, "this special message to inform you that
yesterday the Germans began deportations of Jews from
Hungary. … The deported ones go to Auschwitz to be put
to death by cyanide gas. This is the schedule, of
Auschwitz from yesterday to the end: Twelve thousand
Jews - men, women and children, old men, infants,
healthy and sick ones, are to be suffocated daily.
And you, our brothers in Palestine, in all the
countries of freedom, and you ministers of all the
Kingdoms, how do you keep silent in the face of this
great murder. Silent while thousands upon thousands,
reaching now to six million Jews, are murdered? And
silent now, while tens of thousands are still being
murdered or waiting to be murdered? Their destroyed
hearts cry out to you for help as they bewail your
cruelty. Brutal, you are and murderers, too, you are,
because of the cold bloodedness of the silence in
which you watch, because you sit with folded arms and
do nothing, although you could stop or delay the
murder of Jews at this very hour. You, our brothers,
sons of Israel, are you insane?" (From Shoenman, "The
Hidden History of Zionism?")
The Zionists also fought against the immigration of
Jews to other countries where they could escape
extermination. Explaining their policy of pressuring
Great Britain and the United States not to adopt
immigration policies that would have saved the lives
of Jews Zionist leader Ben Gurion stated in 1938: "If
I knew that it would be possible to save all the
children in Germany by bringing them over to England
and only half of them by transporting them to Eretz
Israel, then I would opt for the second option" (from
Brenner, "Zionism", pg. 149).
The ability of the Zionist movement to sacrifice
the lives of millions of Jews for the settling of
Palestine had a consistent inner logic. That logic
speaks volumes. While some of the first victims of
these Zionist madmen were the Jewish people, the
Palestinians were next. And today the continued
Zionist mistreatment of the Palestinian people is one
of the biggest threats to the lives of Jewish people
because some of the Arab victims of Zionism now do not
differentiate between the crimes of Zionism and the
Jewish people. In addition the Israeli government
aided in the formation of the anti-Semitic
organization Hamas and today uses their suicide
bombings against civilians as a way to gain sympathy
and support in the Zionist war against the Palestinian
people (more on this later). Objectively the Zionist
capitalist state is, in fact, the common enemy of both
Jews and Arabs.
In the 1940s Jews were only one third of the
population of Palestine. The Arab majority had not
yet been driven from their land. The British, in
considering their entire imperial interests in the
Middle East and their need for good relations with
Arabs had backtracked from their original support of a
Jewish state in Palestine. Thus the Zionist minority
carried out a war of independence against Britain in
order to set up the Jewish state. The Palestinian
people, the majority of the population, were not
consulted by the Zionists on what kind of future they
would like to have for their homeland and had little
involvement in the war although a few did side with
British forces.
After independence from the Britain in 1948 the
Zionist state began a massive expropriation of
Palestinian land that has not ended. Becky Johnson's
claim that, "the Arabs and Muslims who did not flee in
1948, but stayed in Israel have full citizenship, have
freedom to practice their religion, own property,
vote, have representation in the Knesset, and compose
18% of the population" is so utterly untrue as to defy
common sense. Besides defying the facts, which we
shall establish, I ask why most of an entire people
would voluntarily flee the land in which they had
built flourishing towns, a rich agriculture, and a
vibrant cultural life with nowhere else to go? The
short answer is that they did not flee voluntarily.
They had met the "Jewish bayonets" of Zionist
Jabotinsky's "Iron Wall". To deny this fact comes in
on the same level as those who deny the Holocaust of
Europe.
The humiliating conditions of the Palestinian
people were recently observed by former anti-Apartheid
fighter Archbishop Desmond Tutu who wrote: "I have
been very deeply distressed by my visit to the Holy
Land; it reminded me so much of what happened to us
black people in South Africa. I have seen the
humiliation of Palestinians at checkpoints and
roadblocks, suffering like us when young police
officers prevented us from moving about.
"On my visit to the Holy Land I drove to a church
with the Anglican bishop in Jerusalem. I could hear
tears in his voice as he pointed to Jewish
settlements. I thought of the desire of Israelis for
security. But what of the Palestinians who have lost
their land and homes?
"I have experienced Palestinians pointing to what
were their homes, now occupied by Jewish Israelis. I
was walking with Canon Naim Ateek (the head of the
Sabeel Ecumenical Centre) in Jerusalem. He pointed
and said: 'Our home was over there. We were driven
out of our home; it is now occupied by Israeli Jews.'
"My heart aches. I say why are our memories so
short. Have our Jewish sisters and brothers forgotten
their humiliation? Have they forgotten the collective
punishment, the home demolitions, in their own history
so soon?"
Although the Israeli government claims that
Palestinians have the right to own property, this is a
lie. Ever since 1948 Palestinians in Israel do not
have the right to own land, because their land is
often confiscated by force for Hebrew settlement and
agriculture. Water rights have been systematically
cut off and diverted away from Palestinian lands and
given to stolen Hebrew owned lands. Palestinian
laborers are then denied by law the right to work the
Hebrew owned agricultural lands, although they are
sometimes illegally employed as cheap labor with no
labor rights.
Palestinians do not have the right to freely
travel. Reminiscent of chattel slavery, Palestinian
families are often separated by Israeli officials who
commonly do not grant necessary permits for
Palestinians to enter neighborhoods or towns where
wives, husbands, or children live. In contrast the
Hebrew population has full rights to travel.
Palestinians often do not have the right to keep
their own homes, which are often confiscated or
bulldozed. The bulldozing of houses is a common
punishment of families whose children are accused of
throwing stones at Israeli soldiers. Recently in
Jenin houses were bulldozed with people inside, an act
that besides killing people also made an estimated
4,000 people homeless.
Palestinians do not have the right to freedom of
speech and regularly face arrest, torture, and
execution for their political views. Even Hebrew
speakers who support rights for Palestinians or an end
to Israeli wars have, at times, had their press shut
down by the Israeli government or had their
demonstrations attacked and beaten by Israeli
soldiers.
Palestinians do not have the same right to an
education as Hebrew speaking people based on the fact
that higher education is paid for through the forced
military inscription of Hebrew speakers while
Palestinians are excluded from the military. It would
in fact make no sense for the Zionists to allow
Palestinians into their military since military
humiliation, brutality, and outright terror against
Palestinians is a part of every day duty for an
Israeli soldier. Likewise few blacks served in the
Apartheid military of South Africa.
Those Palestinians that are then driven out of what
was once Palestine usually are not allowed to return,
while Jews who have never set foot in Israel are
granted automatic citizenship (with the exception of
two Jewish supporters of Palestinians named Ralph
Shoenman and Mya Shone who have the honor of not being
allowed into Israel because of their writings). Those
Palestinians that are forced from Israel are often
bombed by Israel in their refugee camps or massacred
in other ways. In the 1982 case of the Sabra and
Chatila refugee camps in Lebanon, Palestinians were
rounded up and systematically slaughtered in the
thousands by Israeli troops and their Phalangist
Militia allies.
As survivor Mrs. Sersawi testified in a Belgium
appeals court on the Israeli governments war crimes,
"The Lebanese forces militia [Phalangists] had taken
us from our homes and marched us up to the entrance of
the camp where a large hole had been dug in the earth.
The men were told to get into it. Then the
militiamen shot a Palestinian. The women and children
climbed over bodies to get to this spot, but we were
truly shocked by seeing this man killed in front of us
and there was a roar of shouting and screams from the
women. That's when we heard the Israelis on a
loudspeaker shouting, 'give us your men.' We thought,
'thank God, they will save us.'
"We were told to walk up the road to the Kuwaiti
Embassy, the women and children in front, the men
behind. We had been separated. There were Phalangist
Militiamen and Israeli soldiers walking alongside us.
I could still see Hassan (her husband with whom she
was 3 months pregnant) and Faraj (her brother-in-law).
It was like a parade. There were several hundred of
us. When we got to Cite Sportif, the Israelis put us
women in a big concrete room and the men were taken to
another side of the stadium. There were a lot of men
from the camp and I could no longer see my husband.
The Israelis went around saying 'Sit, sit.' It was 11
AM. An hour later we were told to leave. But we
stood outside amid the Israeli soldiers, waiting for
our men.
"Some men came out, none of them younger than 40,
and they told us to be patient, that hundreds of men
were still inside. Then about 4 PM an Israeli officer
came out. He was wearing dark glasses and said in
Arabic: 'What are you waiting for?' He said there was
nobody left, that everyone had gone. There were
Israeli trucks moving out with tarpaulin over them.
We couldn't see inside. And there were jeeps and
tanks and a bulldozer making a lot of noise. We
stayed there as it got dark and the Israelis appeared
to be leaving and we were very nervous. But when the
Israelis had moved away, we went inside. And there
was no one there. Nobody. I had been only three
years married. I never saw my husband again."
Sabra and Shatila are only one of the massacres of
people done by the Israeli government in the past 54
years of Israeli occupation of Palestinian land.
Today all of the Palestinian towns of historic
Palestine are either occupied by Israeli troops who
are killing people or surrounded by Israeli troops and
tanks who are poised to attack. While Israeli troops
are claiming that they are only killing combatants
Human Rights Watch has documented the following crimes
in Jenin alone: murders of civilians including
children, the old, and the disabled; summary
executions; the bulldozing of houses with people in
them; and the use of Palestinian civilians as human
shields.
The cities of Ramallah and Jenin have been laid to
waste by the Zionists just as the Nazis smashed the
towns of Guarnica and Lidice in the name of collective
punishment. Likewise the heroic resistance of
Palestinian fighters in the face of superior military
force is reminiscent of the Jewish fighters in the
Warsaw Ghetto and Vilna.
The Israeli offensive will not stop those willing
to do suicide missions against civilians, attacks that
are futile attempts to combat the genocide
Palestinians face. The Israeli offensive does the
opposite in deepening the conditions that created
suicide bombers in the first place. The anger created
is by escalated Israeli murder is actually more likely
to increase the number tragic of attacks on Hebrew
civilians. At the same time Israel has not targeted
the main base of the suicide bombers, Gaza, where
Hamas is heavily organized. In fact, the murderous
Israeli repression really isn't meant to stop attacks
on Hebrew civilians because these bombings by Hamas
actually play right into the Zionist government's aims
and objectives in pushing for a final solution against
the Palestinian people and the Palestinian Authority
who the Israeli government consistently blame for the
attacks by Hamas.
(See Part 2) -
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Unsu...
Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 7:48 AMHow Israel Promotes Anti-Semitism (Part 2)
Hamas is an anti-Semitic fundamentalist religious
organization that killed 150 Israeli civilians through
suicide bombings between 1994 and 1998 alone. From
its beginnings as the Mujama in the 1970s to this day
Hamas does not face the same kind of repression as any
other Palestinian group. In addition Hamas reportedly
receives $28 million dollars a year from another key
U.S. ally in the region, Saudi Arabia.
The U.S. and the Saudi Arabian monarchy work
together closely to systematically loot Saudi Arabia's
oil resources for the profits of U.S. oil monopolies
while the vast majority of the Saudi people live in
poverty. In addition the U.S., Saudi Arabia, and
Hamas worked together closely in the U.S. war drive to
destroy the left progressive PDPA government that held
power in Afghanistan from 1978 to 1992. This was a
war where the U.S. government and Saudi Arabia gave
billions of dollars of military aid to Osama Bin Laden
and the Islamic fundamentalists of the Mujahedin who
were waging a holy war against the advances in women's
rights, including women's literacy, that were
occurring under the PDPA government. Tactics of the
Mujahedin included throwing acid in the faces of women
liberated from the veil and murdering women for
teaching little girls how to read and write. Fearing
a Mujahedin government right on its border and
defending the PDPA government from U.S. aggression the
Soviet Union sent troops into Afghanistan in 1979.
Although these Soviet troops were invited by the
Afghan PDPA U.S. propaganda called this a Soviet
invasion.
An estimated 100,000 of the Islamic fundamentalists
who fought in Afghanistan were recruited by the CIA
outside of Afghanistan. Hamas participated in this
activity. As John Cooley from ABC news pointed out on
March 13th, 1996 in the International Herald Tribune:
"A key Hamas organizer was Abdallah Azzam. He was a
tough, brilliant and charismatic Palestinian from
Jordan. He supervised training for the CIA's Afghan
guerrillas in Peshawar, Pakistan, where a car bomb
killed him in 1989. In the earlier 1980s he toured
the United States, recruiting Arab-Americans for the
anti-Soviet jihad in Afghanistan."
Just as the United States used Hamas against the
Afghani people and the leftist PDPA government, Israel
has used the religious fundamentalists of Hamas as a
club against the socialist and secular nationalist
movements in Palestine that Hamas has violently
opposed. It is those secular and socialist movements
that Israel has seen as more of a threat in terms of
winning the masses of people, including Hebrew
speakers, over to positions of sympathy and solidarity
with the Palestinians. Hamas's suicide bombers
against civilians instead serve Zionist interests in
driving a larger wedge between Palestinians and Hebrew
speakers, people who will need to unite against their
common oppressor and killer, the Israeli Zionist
government.
Early Israeli support for Hamas included in 1978
the granting of Mujama charitable status in Gaza while
other organizations, especially political
organizations as Mujama was, could not get such
status. In 1979 Israeli collusion with the Mujama
movement set up the Islamic University of Gaza whose
anti-PLO and anti-socialist slogan was: "How can
uncovered women and men with Beatle haircuts liberate
our holy places?" Students who did not tow the
Islamic line were disciplined through brutal beatings
and sometimes had acid thrown in their faces. In
addition Mujama mobs were allowed to violently attack
and burn down PLO controlled institutions at a time
when other street demonstrations were not allowed or
tightly controlled by the Israeli authorities.
In 1979 the Mujama movement burned the Palestinian
Red Crescent Society's (PRC) building to the ground.
In response the PRC issued the following statement,
"The tacit approval of the authorities, if not their
actual connivance in what happened, was displayed in
their attitude of non-interference. While they
usually display great alertness to combating even
peaceful demonstrations of young students within
schools, here they stood indifferently watching a
violently destructive demonstration march to its
objectives."
In 1988 Hamas was formed out of Mujama. While PLO
supporters were organizing mass demonstrations in the
streets Hamas was instead focusing on shooting Israeli
soldiers. Despite this fact Hamas had top-level
meetings with the Israeli government while that same
government would not even meet with the PLO. Milton
Edwards in "Islamic Politics In Palestine" noted the
relationship: "The relationship between Hamas and the
Israeli authorities was, however, at the strongest
during the second year of the Intifada. The Israelis
had been quick to extend legitimacy status to Hamas in
an attempt to marginalize the PLO. Leaders of Hamas
were regularly filmed at meetings with top-level
Israeli officials and the message the Israelis were
sending out was that they regarded Hamas as the type
of people with whom they could work…
"In addition the Israelis continued turning a blind
eye to large amounts of money coming into the country
destined for Hamas coffers, while at the same time
stopping the flow of PLO funds in support of the
Intifada."
In 1994 Hamas began its indiscriminate attacks on
Hebrew speaking people through suicide bombings.
Those suicide bombings had been stepped up by Hamas in
the beginnings of the Intifada 2 uprising in September
2000, but then ended due to an agreement between
Arafat's Palestinian Authority and Hamas. While this
agreement was in effect world attention became focused
on the gunning down of Palestinian children by Israeli
sharp shooters on the West Bank. For the Zionist
government this was becoming a public relations
disaster.
Israeli Prime Minister Sharon needed a new
provocation he could use as propaganda to escalate the
war against the Palestinian people and the Palestinian
Authority (P.A.). To create this provocation he took
action to end the truce between the P.A. and Hamas on
ending the suicide bombings of civilians. On November
23rd Israeli security forces assassinated Hamas leader
Mahmud Abu Hunud. On November 25th, 2001 right-wing
Israeli journalist Alex Fishman accurately observed in
the "Yediot Achronot": "Whoever gave the green light
to this act of liquidation knew full well that he is
thereby shattering in one blow the gentleman's
agreement between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority;
under that agreement, Hamas was to avoid in the near
future suicide bombings inside the Green Line."
Of course no one but Sharon could have given the
green light for such an important operation. Sharon's
provocation against the Hamas anti-Semites had its
intended affect. Within days Hamas resumed attacks
against Israeli civilians. In March a Hamas bomber
killed 25 civilians in the Passover attack that was
then used by Sharon as his excuse to attack the
Palestinian people and the Palestinian Authority while
leaving the Hamas stronghold of Gaza untouched.
The U.S. government's massive military support to
the Zionist State and, to a lesser extent to the
repressive Saudi Arabian monarchy is responsible for
the bloodshed in Palestine. The racist state of
Israel currently receives 300,000 dollars per hour in
U.S. military and economic aid. The F-16 bombers,
Apache and Cobra helicopters used in the latest
attacks are just some of the weapons used to kill
Palestinians that are made in the United States.
Socialists stand for an end to U.S. military aid to
Israel and all of the crowned princes, sheiks, emirs,
and Islamic fanatics of the Middle East. We
understand that these U.S. policies are the policies
of both the Democrat and Republican Parties.
Imperialist policy isn't the result of some
misunderstanding by these parties of the wealthy.
Instead the repressive and genocidal policies of U.S.
imperialism flow from the drive for profits by the
rapacious U.S. capitalists that rule America and much
of the world. From this understanding socialists know
that the only way we will get a just foreign policy,
fair treatment of workers and the poor, and sound
ecological policies is through a socialist revolution
in the United States.
---Steve Argue, for Liberation News
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Unsu...
Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sun, January 13, 2008 - 7:01 AMThe article I just posted here was poorly edited. I've edited its grammar and re-posted it at the following site.
How Israel Promotes Anti-Semitism
www.indybay.org/newsitems/...8472076.php
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 7:45 AMSeems like there were steps taken to delete this article from the public record.
Can you explain that? If you stand by it, why try to hide it? -
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Unsu...
Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 7:52 AMI haven't taken any steps to delete this article from the public record, and besides your false accusation of anti-Semitism, I thank you for bringing it up. Unlike the decades of racist, anti-Semitic, and homophobic writings of Ron Paul, there is nothing about this that is embarrassing.
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Wed, January 30, 2008 - 11:40 AMWow. TOU Guy was here? -
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Wed, January 30, 2008 - 11:47 AMOH SNAP!
And people complained about my 'was Hitler a Jew" thread.
BWWWAAAA HA HA HA HA! -
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Unsu...
Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Wed, January 30, 2008 - 6:57 PMit wasn't me, but the suggestion is pretty absurd.
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Wed, January 30, 2008 - 12:06 PMinteresting stuff here...
googled: koran about jews www.google.com/search
from wikipedia, Islam and antisemitism en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isla...tisemitism
Moses, a Jew, is the most mentioned character in the Koran... it also appears that a lot of the supposed "antisemitism" in the Koran is only that way to due translation (or mistranslation)... so the antisemitism that many Muslims harbor is due to what they were taught, which is not necessarily what was meant in the Koran. -
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Wed, January 30, 2008 - 12:09 PM>>>>Moses, a Jew, is the most mentioned character in the Koran... it also appears that a lot of the supposed "antisemitism" in the Koran is only that way to due translation (or mistranslation)... so the antisemitism that many Muslims harbor is due to what they were taught, which is not necessarily what was meant in the Koran.<<<
Religion, another great joke man has played on himself. -
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Wed, January 30, 2008 - 5:35 PMIf I admire Steven Argue for anything, it is his great respect for Freedom of Speech!
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 7:56 AMWhat utter nonsense. Then again considering that Steven's a Soviet apologist and thinks that Stalin got a bum rap....
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Unsu...
Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 8:00 AMI'm not a Soviet apologist and I'm not a Stalinist. But I guess Brent is a Zionist apologist. -
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 8:03 AMand an apologist for the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan too
Oh, yes a dangerous "Zionist apologist"
I should have added anti-semite to my earlier charges too....... -
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Unsu...
Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 8:12 AMO.K., great, we're going to have a thread where I have to answer various rightwing attacks against me.
As is clear in my writings, I am not an anti-Semite.
As for Afghanistan, it was U.S. intervention on behalf of murderous misogynist religious fanatics that brought Soviet troops into Afghanistan to defend the pro-woman pro-literacy PDPA government.
U.S. intervention brought the Mujahideen and Taliban to power. I think history has come to prove my position correct. -
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 8:14 AMI think its a pretty centrist, and reasonable point of view to call into question anyone who accuses Jews of killing their own for whatever possible gain.
Sorry, blowing these questions off as "right-wing" is an inadequate defense. -
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Unsu...
Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 8:18 AMI don't accuse "Jews" of killing their own, I am much more specific, I accuse the Zionist movement of doing this. Jewish victims made the same accusation. -
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Unsu...
Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Wed, January 30, 2008 - 6:58 PMthe title of this thread is very different than what you just stated. -
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Wed, January 30, 2008 - 7:00 PMExplain what you mean David.
Steven complained to TOU and had the OP in this thread deleted.
I was being extremely sarcastic in my remark.
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 5:03 PM<O.K., great, we're going to have a thread where I have to answer various rightwing attacks against me. >
Well, substantiate your claims, and there will not be any more attacks.
You have all sorts of unsubstantiated claims in your article, so substantiate them, please. -
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 5:15 PM"You have all sorts of unsubstantiated claims in your article, so substantiate them, please."
Andrew, you should know that is totally against Steven's character -
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 5:26 PMSteven, I appreciate your willingness to stick your neck out, when few are willing to do that.
I don't always agree with your positions, but I often find truth in what you say.
People have to be willing to be provocative and speak plainly about injustice, which you do.
Americans are far too passive, far too lazy and aren't willing to get angry about things.
I am extremely lucky to have spent time on my grandfathers farm in the summertime
when my grandfather and uncles would argue like all get out.
My grandfather was an anarchist, one uncle was a democrat, one was a communist,
and my father was a republican. Those were stimulating times, but modern
people are pretty apathetic and when they are passionate, they are usually
intolerant. My family would curse and yell, but an hour later they were all good.
Thanks for pushing the boundaries to the left a bit with your impassioned articles. -
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 7:17 PM>> Thanks for pushing the boundaries to the left a bit with your impassioned articles. <<
and thanks for being about as crazy as a shithouse rat.
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 6:38 PM<Andrew, you should know that is totally against Steven's character>
Yes. You're right. I was having a hopeful minute there. -
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Unsu...
Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sun, January 13, 2008 - 6:56 AMAndrew says, "Yes. You're right. I was having a hopeful minute there. "
I guess Andrew expects me to be glued to my computer instantly answering his questions the minute he posts them. Sorry, I left my computer for a bit. Your question is a bit overbroad for me to answer however, would you care to be a bit more specific?
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Unsu...
Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sun, January 13, 2008 - 6:53 AMAndrew says, "You have all sorts of unsubstantiated claims in your article, so substantiate them, please."
I do substantiate my claims. Would you care to be a bit more specific? -
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sun, January 13, 2008 - 6:29 PM<I do substantiate my claims. Would you care to be a bit more specific?>
OK.
"Under the 1944 agreement the Nazis would murder 800,000 Hungarian Jews without Zionist interference and with complete silence from the Zionist movement. In exchange 600 prominent Jews would be freed from Hungary."
So, please prove that there was collusion that caused to occur what you suggested occur. You make the accusation, but did what you say actually happen? I do not doubt that there were some collaborators, but did they collaborate in the manner that you accuse them? Prove it.
I have read through your hyper-partisan missive and have found ABSOLUTELY NO SUBSTANTIATION to your claims. None. Not a one.
Please provide your proof that you used to write this essay. I mean, if you wrote it, I assume that you found proof, so.......care to clue us into the proof? -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sun, January 13, 2008 - 6:41 PMthat is certainly a fair request. . .
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 5:52 AMAndrew says, "I have read through your hyper-partisan missive and have found ABSOLUTELY NO SUBSTANTIATION to your claims. None. Not a one."
Not one? Give me a break.
Kastner's collaboration with the Nazis was confirmed with the Israeli court stating, "The sacrifice of the majority of the Jews, in order to rescue the prominents was the basic element in the agreement between Kastner and the Nazis. This agreement fixed the division of the nation into two unequal camps, a small fragment of prominents, whom the Nazis promised Kastner to save, on the one hand, and the majority of Hungarian Jews whom the Nazis designated for death, on the other hand." (Judgment given on June 22, 1955, Protocol of Criminal Case 124/53 in District Court, Jerusalem; cited in Ralph Schoenman’s “Hidden History of Zionism”) -
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 5:39 PM<Kastner's collaboration with the Nazis was confirmed with the Israeli court stating, "The sacrifice of the majority of the Jews, in order to rescue the prominents was the basic element in the agreement between Kastner and the Nazis. This agreement fixed the division of the nation into two unequal camps, a small fragment of prominents, whom the Nazis promised Kastner to save, on the one hand, and the majority of Hungarian Jews whom the Nazis designated for death, on the other hand." (Judgment given on June 22, 1955, Protocol of Criminal Case 124/53 in District Court, Jerusalem; cited in Ralph Schoenman’s “Hidden History of Zionism”)>
Why didn't you quote that in your original post? You pasted only the first few words of that paragraph.
So, you have one guy who chose to save his family and friends instead of strangers. Well, that sucks.
Let's look at the title of this thread, "Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?"
What is your reasoning for even posting this thread? Were there collaborators? Yes. What I wonder, is if I was there, and the Nazis gave me the choice, "We will kill you, your wife, your children, your bothers and sisters and their children, your father, your mother, their bothers and sisters and their children, ... or, you help us......" I wonder what I'd do, Steven. I wonder what you would do. If I was thinking about my child as I had to make this choice.......? I wonder what I'd do?
What was the reason for this thread, Steven? To show that there were collaborators that made horrible and difficult choices? What was your point?
<This all true and nothing about it is anti-Semitic.>
Depends on your purpose behind the post, I suppose.
uspolitics.tribe.net/thread/...0d75f3e5
Read that one again, Steven. I think that your agenda leads you, as opposed to being led by the facts and the base honesty of the situation.
You'll find I am sure next how throughout time, there has been a region called "Palestine", but that is not what is being discussed. The PEOPLE there had never been called "Palestinians" until it became politically expedient to do so. Even Arafat himself is famously quoted as NOT wanting to be called "Palestinian", and saying himself that there are no "Palestinians" until he wanted to be the leader of the "Palestinians". I bet that you don't even know this.
Steven, look into therapy instead of this need to promote this agenda.
The facts are so simple:
1) Israel will be there for a long, long time, so whining about that is just whining.
2) States that wanted to make peace with Israel have peace with Israel.
3) Israel has been on the defensive since the VERY DAY of its inception, so why are you surprised that the Israelis are rather overtly and reflexively defensive?
4) You'd better spend your time counciling the "Palestinians" to make the peace that they are offered. Otherwise, you will whine until you are an old man, and they STILL won't have a country. Be smart - do what is RIGHT, not what your own reflexive psychological needs compel you to do. Take control of your impulses.
So, in this thread, we see what horrible choices some Hungarian Jews had (My great-grandfather was Hungarian), who had the choice of saving their family or not, and we see also in this thread that some of the original Zionists were as batshit crazy as you are.
Got it. See? Agenda-compelled people make bad choices. You should learn from your own thread, and point this out to the P's. -
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Unsu...
Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 10:14 AMAndrew asks, "Why didn't you quote that in your original post? You pasted only the first few words of that paragraph."
I did. I posted the entire paragraph. Those who butchered my article did otherwise.
"What is your reasoning for even posting this thread?"
I didn't.
Here is my original article, before it was butchered and changed by the pro-Zionist site that Sean cut and pasted it from:
How Israel Promotes Anti-Semitism
www.indybay.org/newsitems/...8472076.php
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 11:37 AMhe also defends the actions of Mao Zedong -
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Unsu...
Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 11:40 AMHere we go again.
No, I am not a Maoist, and while I'll defend Mao on some questions, I strongly oppose his actions on others.
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Unsu...
Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 12:28 PMThe complete works of Steven A.:
blah blah blah imperialist expansion blah blah zionist aggression blah blah blah colonialist oppression blah blah capitalist bloodlust blah blah downtrodden workers blah blah blah Mao blah blah blah Stalin blah blah blah Cuba blah blah Castro
*yawn* -
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Unsu...
Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 12:45 PMLuminous is one of the funniest people in the world. -
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sun, January 13, 2008 - 8:14 AMWhat is so shocking to know or even try to understand that people will kill there own people as long as the inevitable outcome is achieved, for what ever reason. Its not new. Stalin killed 7 million, Mao killed 50 million. You got slaughter going on in Dafur, revoultions and rebellions are world wide. Amnesty International assesed that over 250 million people were genocided in the last Century. Isn't genocide killing your own people. How about central America where death squads shot socialist. If you take the idea of the article and take out the word Jew, then there would be no indication of being either Semitic or anti Semitic and you are dealing with only simple people. For me Zionism is no different than fascism. So instead of using Zionist use Fascist and then you may understand why this "could" happen. Actually the topic should read more like ---Are (Certain) jews responsible for killing -------It may sound a bit clearer, after all what is being refered here is that all jews where responsible for killing jews. That wouldn't make sense. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 10:17 AMAbsurd. Mao did not kill 50 million people.
As I said earlier, "No, I am not a Maoist, and while I'll defend Mao on some questions, I strongly oppose his actions on others."
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Sun, January 13, 2008 - 6:40 PMIt is the most venal racism possible.
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Unsu...
Jewish Praise for Article
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 5:57 AMI have reproduced your article on my blog, as I need as many eyes as possible to see it. I am a Sephardic Jewess, and came to this country as a refugee from Egypt. I have never felt more Jewish, and yet I despise the word "zionist".
I find way too many Jews ready to pounce on me and others of a like mind, as they did to this man, for opposing zionism. The two are not mutually exclusive; you can be Jewish, love your people and tradition, and still not agree with the zionist principles.
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Re: Jewish Praise for Article
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 7:46 AMLet me know steven when you are able to define what those Zionist principles are that you don't agree with, or if you can define any at all. -
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Unsu...
Re: Jewish Praise for Article
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 8:12 AMIt's really pretty simple Brent. I don't agree with providing a homeland for one people by denying a homeland of another people (as has been done by force and violence to the Palestinian people). In addition, I don't agree with the government produced by that ideology discriminating against the native people in many horrible ways. I don't like how that racist state, with massive U.S. military aid, is always at war with its neighbors either. Further more, I see religious states as superstitious and discriminatory as well. -
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Re: Jewish Praise for Article
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 8:17 AM"Further more, I see religious states as superstitious and discriminatory as well."
Good point, but the problem with that is the Jews are as much a ethnicity as they are a religion
PS do you have any examples of official policy by Isreal, that shows a state policy influenced by a overly religous ideology? -
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Unsu...
Re: Jewish Praise for Article
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 10:13 AMHere's one of many examples of the problems with a theocratic state:
www.jta.org:80/cgi-bin/io...grants.html
Israel's "non-Jewish Jews"
struggle with identity, exclusion
By Dina Kraft Published: 12/27/2007
TEL AVIV (JTA) – In Israel, the “non-Jewish Jews,” as some Israelis call them, are everywhere. They drive buses, teach university classes, patrol in army jeeps and follow the latest Israeli reality TV shows as avidly as their Jewish counterparts.
For these people -- mostly immigrants from the former Soviet Union who are not Jews according to Israeli law -- the question of where they fit into the Jewish state remains unanswered nearly two decades after they began coming to Israel.
At an estimated 320,000 people and with their ranks growing due to childbirth, the question is growing ever more acute.
"They are not going to be religious, but want to be part of what is called the Jewish secular population," said Asher Cohen, a political scientist at Bar-Ilan University who has written a book on the subject.
"Thousands are being born here and they are no longer immigrants. They are raised just like their secular neighbors and these children want to know why they are not Jewish because their mother is not Jewish,” he said. “The problem is just getting worse."
In almost every respect, these Israelis live as do their secular fellow countrymen, even marking the Jewish holidays, lighting candles on Chanukah and conducting Seders on Passover. But, because they do not qualify as Jews according to halachah, or Jewish law, they are treated differently when it comes to matters that are the purview of the Orthodox-controlled religious establishment, such as lifecycle events like marriage, divorce and burial.
For some, the real question is about identity and fitting in.
Unlike non-Jews residing in Israel illegally, these are people who qualified to immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return, which grants the right of Israeli citizenship to all descendents of a Jewish grandparent or those married to such persons. But the Israeli government does not consider them Jews because their mothers are not Jewish. Non-Jewish Israelis constitute almost a third of all immigrants from the former Soviet Union.
Some of these people say they've always considered themselves Jewish and were thought as such by others -- until, that is, they came to Israel.
Lilia Itskov, 36, grew up in Siberia with a paternal grandmother who preserved the traditions of her observant Jewish home. She said she is heartbroken when her daughter questions whether they are Jewish because Itskov's mother was not Jewish.
"She studies the Bible in school; it's all she knows," Itskov said of her daughter. "She cannot understand why she is not considered a Jew."
Itskov observed Jewish holidays even back in Siberia, and she says she never tried to hide her Jewishness.
"I want people to understand we are part of this country and where we lived before we were always considered Jews," she said. "And now, after so many years, I am told that I am a goy."
Others are believing Christians who struggle to maintain their religious identity while living in Jewish communities in Israel. Keeping a low profile, many of them attend religious services on Sundays in community members' apartments or go to Arab-run Christian churches in Jerusalem and Jaffa on major holidays. In the Israeli Arab village of Abu Ghosh, near Jerusalem, there are church services held in Hebrew.
"Little is known about them, there is no research about them and they try to hide their faith," Cohen said of the active Christians among the Russian-speaking immigrants. "It's hard for them to be Christians in any overt way here."
For Vera Gorman, 21, whose family immigrated to Israel from Russia seven years ago and whose mother's grandfather was Jewish, the sting of exclusion hit for the first time when it came time to marry.
In Israel, where there is no civil marriage, all citizens must be married by clergymen, and Jewish clergy are not allowed to perform intermarriages. Vera is Jewish but the man she planned on marrying, Maxim Gorman, was not, so there was no way for the couple to get married in Israel. Instead, they had to go to Prague. Marriages abroad are recognized in Israel.
Vera said she and Maxim were angry and bewildered by the rules.
Maxim, 25, who served in an IDF combat unit and twice was injured in fighting in Gaza, said he does not understand why, if he spilled blood for his country, he had to go to abroad on the most important day of his life.
"It was especially hard because although I am not Jewish according to halachah, I do feel Jewish in my heart," he said. "In my opinion, state and religion simply do not go together. Israel needs to be democratic and Jewish, and we need to protect our traditions because this is what unites us. But we live in the 21st century and we need to be going forward.”
Some Israelis, especially religious ones, take issue with the large number of non-Jews able to become Israeli, saying they threaten the Jewish character of the state.
They complain about the rising number of butchers that sell pork and condemn the proliferation of Christmas trees, tinsel and plastic Santa Claus dolls that go on sale at shops around the country around Christmastime to cater to the growing population in Israel that celebrates the holiday.
Russian immigrants -- Jews among them -- say they’re not so much celebrating Christmas as participating in festivities honoring the new year.
A few rabbis and members of Orthodox parties in the Knesset have suggested changing the Law of Return to exclude non-Jews from becoming Israeli. But many secular Israelis argue against such changes and say immigration is vital to the country's future.
Despite the challenges they face in Israel as non-Jews, only a minority of non-Jewish immigrants to Israel choose to convert to Judaism.
Because Orthodox conversions are the only kind accepted by the Israeli Chief Rabbinate, which controls religious law in Israel, prospective converts must master Jewish knowledge and pledge to become strictly observant Jews. Most immigrants from the former Soviet Union -- both Jewish and not -- are secular and uninterested in enduring a lengthy, restrictive conversion process.
To try to deal with the problem, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's office announced this week that it was adopting recommendations to help restructure the conversion process to increase the number of religious court judges officiating in conversion cases and drop the demand that converts become religious Jews as a condition of the conversion. Olmert's office hopes these changes will prompt more immigrants to choose to convert.
The army is also trying to ease the conversion process. Nativ, a program sponsored jointly by the Jewish Agency for Israel and the government, is known for its welcoming attitude toward prospective converts and focuses on soldiers who are immigrants from the former Soviet Union. To date, it has shepherded about 2,000 soldiers through the process.
Daniel Gordis, vice president of the Shalem Center, a Jerusalem think tank, says the question is not so much whether the immigrants are Jews according to halachah but how the state treats them.
"How do we reach out to these people to help them see their connection to Judaism as the unfolding story of the Jewish people in this land?" he said. -
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Unsu...
Re: Jewish Praise for Article
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 3:44 PM
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Unsu...
Re: Jewish Praise for Article
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 3:45 PM
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Re: Jewish Praise for Article
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 11:31 PM
Steven, this latest story that you posted, '"Israel's "non-Jewish Jews"' really is making me think that you have an issue with Jews, not with Israel. I have not thought this before, but I have to wonder why you spend so much time complaining about Israel when there are so many places that are far, far worse off than just this one country.
What's your story? Why not spend more time writing about the Congo? Why not spend a second writing about women in Afghanistan? Why not spend some time writing about Burma or N. Korea? Why the fixation with Israel?
Is this new guy Tim a friend of yours? You guys get together and talk about Jews? -
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Unsu...
Re: Jewish Praise for Article
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 10:37 AM"Steven, this latest story that you posted, '"Israel's "non-Jewish Jews"' really is making me think that you have an issue with Jews, not with Israel."
The article is from a Jewish news source. It shows some of the many problems of discrimination under a theocratic government.
"Why not spend more time writing about the Congo?"
I have. I had a weekly talk radio show from 1996 to about 2003; in 1998 I did a two hour radio show on the conflict in the Congo based on an article I wrote on the subject.
"Why not spend a second writing about women in Afghanistan?"
I have written about 15 different articles on Afghanistan, including articles opposing the Mujahideen and Taliban before 9/11.
"Why not spend some time writing about Burma or N. Korea?"
I've written a few articles on North Korea, nothing yet on Burma. When the latest repression occurred in Burma I was too busy to write anything, but I did see some good articles in the socialist press. I can't always write on everything.
"Why the fixation with Israel?"
As you can see, of the somewhat random countries you've picked, I've written on them all with the exception of Burma. Yet Israel is a racist, murderous, theocratic state that could not exist without the intervention of BILLIONS of dollars in U.S. aid. This is a very good reason for Americans to pay attention to what is happening in Israel.
"Is this new guy Tim a friend of yours? You guys get together and talk about Jews?"
I don't know Tim and haven't caught any of his posts. -
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Unsu...
Re: Jewish Praise for Article
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 10:55 AMOK, I just saw this Tim guy's posts. He's a raving lunatic. You have no justification for painting me with that brush.
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Re: Jewish Praise for Article
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 2:33 PM<The article is from a Jewish news source. It shows some of the many problems of discrimination under a theocratic government. >
Oh, well - it's from a "Jewish news source". Well, say no more!!!! I am sorry that ever questioned your agenda. I mean, if you used a "Jewish news source", that means that you have no agenda. Got it. Thanks!
<<"Why not spend more time writing about the Congo?">>
<I have. I had a weekly talk radio show from 1996 to about 2003; in 1998 I did a two hour radio show on the conflict in the Congo based on an article I wrote on the subject.>
Well, spend MORE time. Things are bad NOW, and while I am sure that the Congolese really appreciated your impact between '98 and '03, they are still having a MUCH WORSE TIME than the P's, so.........what? Did you tire of championing the Congolese and now have moved on to the P's? I just find it odd that of all the ills of the world, you spend ALL OF YOUR TIME on Israel. How interesting.....
<<"Why not spend a second writing about women in Afghanistan?"
<I have written about 15 different articles on Afghanistan, including articles opposing the Mujahideen and Taliban before 9/11.>
Well, GREAT!!!! Why not spend forty seconds in THIS forum on Afghanistan and the plight of women there instead of only picking on Israel? It's like you don't even get involved with ANY OTHER discussions at all. Just Israel. If I see your posts, they pretty much always have to do with Israel. Why is that? Why nothing on the Congo? Why nothing on the plight of women in Afghanistan? Do the slaughters in Congo and the burnings of women in Afghanistan not warrant at least SOME discussion? Why just Israel?
<<"Why not spend some time writing about Burma or N. Korea?">>
<I've written a few articles on North Korea, nothing yet on Burma. When the latest repression occurred in Burma I was too busy to write anything, but I did see some good articles in the socialist press. I can't always write on everything. >
True, too true. Especially when you're fixated on Israel.
<As you can see, of the somewhat random countries you've picked, I've written on them all with the exception of Burma.>
Not here you haven't. At least, not in any measure as to make your contribution noteworthy.
<Yet Israel is a racist, murderous, theocratic state that could not exist without the intervention of BILLIONS of dollars in U.S. aid. This is a very good reason for Americans to pay attention to what is happening in Israel.>
Yes, but this is what is going on in Congo these days:
Sexual violence in Congo is "the worst in the world"
www.europarl.europa.eu/news/e..._es.htm
"More than four million people in the past 10 years have reportedly died there because of fighting between the Congolese army and assorted rebels and militia groups.....What sets the Congo apart from other hellish scenes in Africa, however, has been the use of mass rape to instill absolute fear into whole villages. Worse still is that the sadistic violence accompanying the rapes has achieved a previously unprecedented level."
www.tauntongazette.com/news/x1925665574
FOUR MILLION!!!!!!!!!! FOUR FUCKING MILLION!!!!!!! Wow. Four million. That's almost as many people as Israel has killed, 'eh?
That's Congo.....but! What about Afghanistan!? Want me to pull up stories about honor killings?
I tell you what........you just keep fixating on Israel, and let someone else educate us about all the rest of the horrific ills going on all over the world. You just fixate on Israel.
So, go! Fixate! You show them damn Jews what happens when Steven "Argue" gets his ol' hackles up! Y'r going to change the world!!!!!
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: Jewish Praise for Article
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 2:40 PMAndrew has an agenda against me and the Palestinians and is not listening. He says:
"Well, GREAT!!!! Why not spend forty seconds in THIS forum on Afghanistan and the plight of women there instead of only picking on Israel?"
I've spent more than that here on Afghanistan.
And it was not me that started this thread, if you want to complain about the fact that I am defending my positions here, go talk to Sean.
Yet, as I just said, Israel is a racist, murderous, theocratic state that could not exist without the intervention of BILLIONS of dollars in U.S. aid. This is a very good reason for Americans to pay attention to what is happening in Israel. -
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Re: Jewish Praise for Article
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 3:25 PM<<Yet, as I just said, Israel is a racist, murderous, theocratic state that could not exist without the intervention of BILLIONS of dollars in U.S. aid. This is a very good reason for Americans to pay attention to what is happening in Israel.>>
lmao. It's the only functioning democracy in the region. And yes they could exist without US aid. To suggest otherwise is foolish at best. -
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Unsu...
Re: Jewish Praise for Article
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 3:42 PMA racist theocratic apartheid state like Israel, is, by definition undemocratic. Yet, there were those that argued that Apartheid South Africa was a democracy as well.
And no, Israel could not exist without being propped up by billions of dollars in U.S. aid, but Brent always attacks with pure ignorance.
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Re: Jewish Praise for Article
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 4:28 PMisrael gets something like 30 billions a year in US financial help..........i think that is more than the US Dep. of education gets. -
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Re: Jewish Praise for Article
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 5:11 PMJay it's more like $3b -
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Re: Jewish Praise for Article
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 5:25 PMJay, before we cast aspersions on those that were in these ghettos and camps, I may suggest that you put yourself in their position.
don't get me wrong.......i do not put blame them.....hell.....if i had to safe my own sorry little ass i think jeffry dahmer would look like a choir boy.
just saying that these situations existed ........and no one is really talking about them. -
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Re: Jewish Praise for Article
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 5:34 PMJay it's more like $3b.
well..it is more than 3 billions over all.....3 billions is just military aide.........
but yes...it is less than 30 billions............
still to much.
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Re: Jewish Praise for Article
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 7:23 PM<lmao. It's the only functioning democracy in the region. And yes they could exist without US aid. To suggest otherwise is foolish at best.>
Brent, can you imagine how repressive Israel would be without the confining hand of the US? It is only the fact that the US gives them money and arms that they feel comfortable in being as restrained as they are.
Take away that assistance? Israel would then feel forced to be far, far more brutal just to make sure that everyone around them understood what the game was like that they were playing.
Care about the P's? Care about regional stability? Well, then you should be very, very happy about the US efforts in Israel.
Not US effort would equal one regional war after another, which Israel would win very, very quickly.
<A racist theocratic apartheid state like Israel, is, by definition undemocratic.>
Um........................everyone who is an Israeli citizen can vote. So.................your propaganda vs. reality. How does that feel on ya? I bet it does not fit very well.
<Yet, there were those that argued that Apartheid South Africa was a democracy as well. >
Some would argue that the P's deserve nothing at all. Should a stupid point become a good point because someone wants to make a stupid correlation? The ONLY right that the Israeli Muslims do not have is that they are not allowed to easily bring in family from out of the country.
Here's something to chew on: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huma...es_ratings
"The Kach Party had run candidates under a platform which proposed forced transfer of Arabs from Israel and establishment of a theocracy in Israel ruled by traditional Jewish law. This platform was felt to be inciting of racism by the Knesset and was banned from participation in elections."
WOW! How undemocratic! The Israeli Knesset barred this group from participation in elections! Those horrid Israelis!
What else? Well......hmm. The Bedouins are not treated very well, but they can vote all that they like.
So, please tell me, how is Israel not democratic? In fact, they are the MOST DEMOCRATIC state in the region by ANY MEASURE.
<Yet, there were those that argued that Apartheid South Africa was a democracy as well. >
Oh, by the way. Do you really think that we are too stupid to see such blatant manipulations for what they are? That statement is one of the most cynical active efforts to say something without having said it oneself. It's immature and quite stupid. "...there were those that argued..." that Steven molests barn animals. There were those that argued that Steven has a two-inch pee-pee. Get it?
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Re: Jewish Praise for Article
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 4:56 PM<Andrew has an agenda against me and the Palestinians>
HA! I just am sick of your hyper-partisan, one-sided bullshit. Nothing anyone else can say will sway you from your agenda.
Seriously, Steven. The Congolese and Afghani women need you to rally to their cause. Don't just pick on Israel or someone may think you have a reason to just pick on Israel......
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Re: Jewish Praise for Article
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 11:14 AM<<It's really pretty simple Brent. I don't agree with providing a homeland for one people by denying a homeland of another people (as has been done by force and violence to the Palestinian people)>>
Except they weren't denied. The Arab League rejected the solution and attacked Israel from the get go.
The term "palestinian" doesn't come into existence until at least 1968.
Steven I suggest you get your facts straight.... -
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Unsu...
Re: Jewish Praise for Article
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 3:51 PMBrent falsely claims, "The term "palestinian" doesn't come into existence until at least 1968."
1968? Wow, you really haven't looked at this question at all have you Brent?
Palestine was in existence as a recognized territory of the Ottoman Empire long before British control and even before the beginnings of Jewish colonization by the Zionist movement. It was later the name of the British colony.
These inhabitants of the region also had Arab nationalist sentiments that opposed the control of the Ottoman Empire before the creation of the Zionist State and have since opposed many of the U.S., French, and British imposed kings, crown princes, emirs, sheiks, etc. that Zionists like to claim represent the aspirations of the Arab people.
Your attempt to deny a people of even the name of their nationality and homeland is consistent with an ideology that denies an entire people of the right to their homeland. The fact that bloody repression and horrible discrimination has driven the majority of Palestinians from large parts of their homeland without the right of return is not enough. The Zionist movement wants to wipe away the rightful name of the land they have conquered by re-writing history and denying there ever was a Palestine.
From its beginnings in the eighteen hundreds the Zionist movement had little concern for the Arab inhabitants of the Palestinian land they would settle. Instead, they appealed to imperialist powers as potential allies against the Arab people in setting up their Zionist state. For example, Zionist leader T. Herzl stated around 1897: "If his majesty the Sultan were to give us Palestine, we could undertake to regulate Turkey's finances. For Europe, we would constitute a bulwark against Asia down there; we would be the advance post of civilization against barbarism. As a neutral state, we would remain in constant touch with all of Europe, which would guarantee our existence" (Rodinson, "Israel a Colonial Settler State?").
By being “neutral”, Herzl is obviously referring to the Zionist dealings with powers of Europe, and not to the colonial "barbarians" already in and around the land he would settle and conquer.
An Arab leader in Jerusalem named Nassif Bey al-Khalidi who tried unsuccessfully to work out an agreement between Arabs and the Zionist movement warned the Zionists with the following statement, "Be very careful, Messieurs Zionists, governments disappear, but peoples remain. The Jewish immigrants came to Palestine believing it to be a desolate, sparsely inhabited country. They were too busy with their own business and too ignorant of Arabic to notice what was going on around them. Since it was the Turks who ruled Palestine, they turned all their attention toward the Turks. This did not make them popular with the Arabs" (Neville Mandel, "Chapters of Arab-Jewish Diplomacy 1918-1922"). -
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Re: Jewish Praise for Article
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 4:03 PM<<1968? Wow, you really haven't looked at this question at all have you Brent?
Palestine was in existence as a recognized territory of the Ottoman Empire long before British control and even before the beginnings of Jewish colonization by the Zionist movement. It was later the name of the British colony. >>
I'm not talking about the British mandate Palestine, but "Palestinian" as a national or ethnic identity simply did not exist. If you are suggesting otherwise you're sadly delusional.
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Unsu...
Re: Jewish Praise for Article
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 3:52 PMBrent falsely claims, "The term "palestinian" doesn't come into existence until at least 1968."
1968? Wow, you really haven't looked at this question at all have you Brent?
Palestine was in existence as a recognized territory of the Ottoman Empire long before British control and even before the beginnings of Jewish colonization by the Zionist movement. It was later the name of the British colony.
These inhabitants of the region also had Arab nationalist sentiments that opposed the control of the Ottoman Empire before the creation of the Zionist State and have since opposed many of the U.S., French, and British imposed kings, crown princes, emirs, sheiks, etc. that Zionists like to claim represent the aspirations of the Arab people.
Your attempt to deny a people of even the name of their nationality and homeland is consistent with an ideology that denies an entire people of the right to their homeland. The fact that bloody repression and horrible discrimination has driven the majority of Palestinians from large parts of their homeland without the right of return is not enough. The Zionist movement wants to wipe away the rightful name of the land they have conquered by re-writing history and denying there ever was a Palestine.
From its beginnings in the eighteen hundreds the Zionist movement had little concern for the Arab inhabitants of the Palestinian land they would settle. Instead, they appealed to imperialist powers as potential allies against the Arab people in setting up their Zionist state. For example, Zionist leader T. Herzl stated around 1897: "If his majesty the Sultan were to give us Palestine, we could undertake to regulate Turkey's finances. For Europe, we would constitute a bulwark against Asia down there; we would be the advance post of civilization against barbarism. As a neutral state, we would remain in constant touch with all of Europe, which would guarantee our existence" (Rodinson, "Israel a Colonial Settler State?").
By being “neutral”, Herzl is obviously referring to the Zionist dealings with powers of Europe, and not to the colonial "barbarians" already in and around the land he would settle and conquer.
An Arab leader in Jerusalem named Nassif Bey al-Khalidi who tried unsuccessfully to work out an agreement between Arabs and the Zionist movement warned the Zionists with the following statement, "Be very careful, Messieurs Zionists, governments disappear, but peoples remain. The Jewish immigrants came to Palestine believing it to be a desolate, sparsely inhabited country. They were too busy with their own business and too ignorant of Arabic to notice what was going on around them. Since it was the Turks who ruled Palestine, they turned all their attention toward the Turks. This did not make them popular with the Arabs" (Neville Mandel, "Chapters of Arab-Jewish Diplomacy 1918-1922"). -
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Unsu...
Re: Jewish Praise for Article
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 3:54 PMA wierd no post then double post thing going on for me here.
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 7:39 PMHamas is run by Israel, actually Hamas is the cannanite jews. Read The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. It was written over 100 years ago by the cannanite jews, which Jesus said in John 8:44 their father is the serpent Lucifer the devil. The jew will kill their own. As a matter of fact the ones that kill are not jews, they are lucifer's seed line of demons. They do not want us to know this. That is why the NIV Fagit bible is in the private, known by some, jewish masonic religious so called churches today. The niv is a watered down version of truth. There are many scriptures missing from it, that is in the KJV. I must say that the KJV has some flaws also. GOD, LORD JESUS, HOLY SPIRIT, JOHN 1:1 would never lead his people into temptations. Like the passage (Lead us not into temptation). It reads in the Aramic BIBLE (Keep us from falling into temptation). When we have JESUS in our heart, he will show us things we know not. Why ask him, lead us not, when we know in time, that God- JESUS does not tempt. Little minds listen to the wolves in sheep clothings. Peace ,joy, love, is what vomites out of their serpentie mouths. A pastor has no father in heaven. Proverbs 1:15 is violated because of the 501-3C CONTRACT with the uass government. All bastard pastors preach milk. If they preach heavy meat they will be fired from the jewish masonic temple church 501-3C. They will not discuss the communications by the masonic jewish cannanite signals Proverb 6:13. Facts hurt, Truth hurts, knowledge will kill the tares. So mote it be ! -
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 8:04 PMoh come on!!!!!
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 8:00 PMtake a look at the last names in the Israeli USA Government in Washington DC. The federal reserve and world bankers. If that many died in Russia. They would need over 166 thousand railroad cars filled to the top with the ashes. Since the Serpents bombed that place there were no railroads available nor cars. Titus 1:14 Jewish fables. Do not give heed to jewish fables -
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Unsu...
Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 10:56 AMTim, you're a raving lunatic.
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Unsu...
Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 1:59 PMI just got a letter asking for recomendations on further reading. The following letter posted in response to my article at:
www.indybay.org/newsitems/...8472076.php
has reading recomendations I would make as well:
This appears to be Steve Argue's best writing yet. His patience in researching and writing these details is amazing. Contrary to the illusion promoted by the pro-Israel idiot above, Tia, Ben-Gurion was a bloodthirsty Arab killer who would have made Hitler proud. This is described with page cites from Ben-Gurion's diary, in the outstanding history of the US military base to protect US oil profits in the Middle East, Israel, in a book by Ilan Pappe,
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine (2006) Oneworld Publications, ISBN 978-1-85168-555-4
The January-February 2008 issue of International Socialist Review, at
www.isreview.org/issues/57...appe.shtml
has a good review of Pappe's book by Mostafa Omar that highlights the crimes against humanity perpetrated by David Ben Gurion (1886-1973), the first prime minister of the US military puppet state, Israel.
It is also well known and proudly advertised that Israel is a racist, theocratic, anti-women militaristic state, the latest insult being "Jews only" roads. Israel is a good example of why we say all nationalism is reactionary. And of course, all religion is superstition. The religion is a cover for being a cat's paw of US imperialism, all to the detriment of the Jewish and Arab workingclass, both of whom are Semites.
For anyone who wants further reading, including but not limited to Nazi GermanyZionist collaboration, which continues today as Nazi USA-Zionist collaboration, please see:
Israel-Palestine on Record by Howard Friel and Richard Falk
(2007) Verso, ISBN 978-1-84467-109-0 (Contains eyewitness testimony for 2000 to 2006 of Israeli destruction of Palestinians homes and the horrors of daily life in Occupied Palestine due to daily Israeli terrorism, all paid for with $6 billion US tax dollars annually, making Israel the 4th largest military gang in the world).
Zionism in the Age of Dictators by Lenni Brenner at
www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/
The Iron Wall by Lenni Brenner at
www.marxists.de/middleast/ironwall/
The Hidden History of Zionism by Ralph Schoenman at
www.marxists.de/middleast/schoenman/
www.normanfinkelstein.com/
51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis edited by Lenni Brenner
(2002) Barricade Books, New Jersey, ISBN 1-56980-235-1
The Transfer Agreement by Edwin Black
(1984, 2001) Carroll & Graf, NY, ISBN 0-7867-0841-7
The Third Reich and the Palestine Question by Francis Nicosia
(1985) University of Texas Press, ISBN 0-292-72731-3
www.isreview.org/issues/57/rev-papp...
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 2:42 PMThis world is bigger than whats happening in Jerusalem. Its a big life we are dealing with. So what if the arabs want isreal gone, it means nothing to me. So what. Most of Europe don't care, if it wasn't for your big brother the US you wouldn' t even exist. Don't place so much importance on the middle east, it don't exist. I don't care. I live here. Nothing else matters. I wish the Jews and Catholics would stop playing me. -
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Unsu...
Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 2:51 PM????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Brian says, "Don't place so much importance on the middle east, it don't exist."
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
"I wish the Jews and Catholics would stop playing me."
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
I'd ask, but after that, I know I won't care for his answer. -
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 3:17 PMOne thing is for sure.....and sounds crazy....
The Warshaw Ghetto had their own Jewish Police ( Jüdische Ghetto-Polizei, Jüdischer Ordnungsdienst) working together with the Nazis.....and they were as brutal as the SS itself.
Shortly before the KZ Mauthauses-Gusen was "liberated" by the red Army......many Jews from the KZ volunteered to join the " "Freiwillige Srafgefangenen SS".......dug ditches around Mauthausen and fought against the Russians..............
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 3:20 PMand Mauthausen-Gusen was classified as a Camp III KZ....meaning, only people who are viewed as un-changeable were imprisoned there.....extermination through labor.
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 4:58 PM
Jay, before we cast aspersions on those that were in these ghettos and camps, I may suggest that you put yourself in their position.
Just say'n.
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Re: Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?
Thu, January 24, 2008 - 9:31 AMbumpity bump.
