Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?

topic posted Sat, January 12, 2008 - 6:24 AM by  Sean
Share/Save/Bookmark
This posting was deleted by TOU (Terms of Use)
Advertisement
Advertisement
  • Unsu...
     
    This all true and nothing about it is anti-Semitic. I'll repost the entire article in a few minutes.
    • The entire thing sounds like a load of all-too-common anti-semitic conspiracy theory.

      So you stand by the article I take it. Thats pretty bold to claim that Jews are responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own people.
      • Unsu...
         
        I don't claim, "Thats [sic] pretty bold to claim that Jews are responsible for killing 800,000 of thier [sic] own people." I'm much more specific to the Zionist movement, a movement that actually supported Hitler. This is not a "conspiracy theory", it is a fact backed by the evidence. I'll repost the entire article.
        • Unsu...
           
          How Israel Promotes Anti-Semitism (Part 1)

          In this mailing: Letter on Israel from Becky Johnson
          and Response by Steve Argue.

          Letter to Editor,

          You have to go back and read your history books.
          Palestine was the name the
          British gave to the mandate they took over (in typical
          British imperial fashion) from the crumbling Ottoman
          Empire. Palestinians at the time included everyone
          who lived there, including the Jews. Palestine ceased
          to exist when Israel was formed in 1948. The plan
          from the UN was to have the state of Palestine right
          next to Israel. But all the Arab neighbors (and the
          Arab population within the borders of the new state of
          Israel) rejected this two state solution and responded
          by out and out war waged on the Israelis.

          The Palestinians (Arabs who live or lived within
          the boundaries of Israel) didn't even start to call
          themselves that until 1968--- twenty years after the
          establishment of Israel. Basically the concept of
          Palestine is a manufactured one to drum up support for
          these Arabs and to decrease support for Israel by the
          claim that Israel is on THEIR land.

          Remember, the Arabs and muslims who did not flee in
          1948, but stayed in Israel have full citizenship, have
          freedom to practice their religion, own property,
          vote, have representation in the Knesset, and compose
          18% of the population.

          There is no Palestine. And there never was except
          as a British invention.


          ---Becky Johnson

          Editor responds:

          Actually history is one of my strong points. You
          state that I need to consult my history books, yet you
          make statements that are inarguably historically
          incorrect. Palestine was in existence as a recognized
          territory of the Ottoman Empire long before British
          control and even before the beginnings of Jewish
          colonization by the Zionist movement.

          These inhabitants of the region also had Arab
          nationalist sentiments that opposed the control of the
          Ottoman Empire before the creation of the Zionist
          State and have since opposed many of the U.S., French,
          and British imposed kings, crown princes, emirs,
          sheiks, etc. that Zionists like to claim represent the
          aspirations of the Arab people.

          Your attempt to deny a people of even the name of
          their homeland is consistent with an ideology that
          denies an entire people of the right to their
          homeland. The fact that bloody repression and
          horrible discrimination has driven the majority of
          Palestinians from large parts of their homeland
          without the right of return is not enough. The
          Zionist movement wants to wipe away the rightful name
          of the land they have conquered by re-writing history
          and denying there ever was a Palestine.

          From its beginnings in the eighteen hundreds the
          Zionist movement had little concern for the Arab
          inhabitants of the Palestinian land they would settle.
          Instead they appealed to imperialist powers as
          potential allies against the Arab people in setting up
          their Zionist state. For example Zionist leader T.
          Herzl stated around 1897: "If his majesty the Sultan
          were to give us Palestine, we could undertake to
          regulate Turkey's finances. For Europe, we would
          constitute a bulwark against Asia down there; we would
          be the advance post of civilization against barbarism.
          As a neutral state, we would remain in constant touch
          with all of Europe, which would guarantee our
          existence" (from Rodinson, "Israel a Colonial Settler
          State?").

          By being neutral Herzl is obviously referring to
          the Zionist dealings with powers of Europe and not to
          the colonial "barbarians" already in and around the
          land he would settle and conquer.

          An Arab leader in Jerusalem named Nassif Bey
          al-Khalidi who tried unsuccessfully to work out an
          agreement between Arabs and the Zionist movement
          warned the Zionists with the following statement, "Be
          very careful, Messieurs Zionists, governments
          disappear, but peoples remain. The Jewish immigrants
          came to Palestine believing it to be a desolate,
          sparsely inhabited country. They were too busy with
          their own business and too ignorant of Arabic to
          notice what was going on around them. Since it was
          the Turks who ruled Palestine, they turned all their
          attention toward the Turks. This did not make them
          popular with the Arabs" (from Neville Mandel,
          "Chapters of Arab-Jewish Diplomacy 1918-1922").

          The Jewish immigrants never became integrated in
          any way with the native Arab population. This was
          true economically, politically, socially, and
          linguistically. These Jewish immigrants were so
          separate from the Palestinian people that they were
          only Palestinian to the extent that they were
          physically living in Palestine.

          It took the weakening of the Sultan during the
          First World War for Europe (specifically England) to
          move in and grant the colonial framework for Jewish
          colonization that aimed itself at the goal of an
          exclusively Jewish state. This framework was set
          forth in a British political charter in November 1917
          called the Balfour Declaration which stated, "His
          Majesty's government views with favor the
          establishment in Palestine of a national home for the
          Jewish people."

          Within this framework an exclusive Jewish state was
          the stated goal of all but a small minority in the
          Zionist movement, a goal that obviously would be at
          the expense of the Arab people already living in
          Palestine. In order to placate the Palestinians,
          however, the Balfour declaration stated, "it should be
          clearly understood that nothing should be done which
          may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the
          non-Jewish communities in Palestine."

          While Britain was trying to placate the Arabs
          Zionist leader Jabotinsky was very clear on Zionist
          intentions stating in 1923 in his Book the "Iron
          Wall", "There can be no discussion of voluntary
          reconciliation between us and the Arabs, not now, and
          not in the foreseeable future. All well meaning
          people, with the exception of those blind from birth,
          understood long ago the complete impossibility of
          arriving at a voluntary agreement with the Arabs of
          Palestine for the transformation of Palestine from an
          Arab country to a country with a Jewish majority.
          Each of you has some understanding of the history of
          colonization. Try to find even one example when the
          colonization took place with the agreement of the
          native population."

          In understanding the existence of a Palestinian
          people and the struggles yet to come Jabotinsky went
          on to state, "They have the precise psychology we
          have. They look upon Palestine with the same
          instinctive love and fervor that any Aztec looked upon
          his Mexico or any Sioux upon his prairie. Each people
          will struggle against colonizers until the last spark
          of hope that they can avoid the dangers of conquest
          and colonization is extinguished. The Palestinians
          will struggle in this way until there is hardly a
          spark of hope."

          Jabotinsky's view, and the policy that would later
          be carried out against the Palestinians could not be
          made any clearer than his following statement from the
          same writing: "We can not give any compensation for
          Palestine, neither to the Palestinians nor to the
          other Arabs. Therefore a voluntary agreement is
          inconceivable. All colonization, even the most
          restricted, must continue in defiance of the native
          population. Therefore it can continue and develop
          only under the shield of force which comprises an Iron
          Wall through which the Arab population can never break
          through. This is our Arab policy. To formulate it
          any other way would be hypocrisy."

          In explaining the differences between Zionist
          factions in dealing with the Palestinians Jabotinsky
          stated, "Force must play its role - with strength and
          without indulgence. In this, in this there are no
          differences between our militarists and our
          vegetarians. One prefers an Iron Wall of Jewish
          bayonets; the other prefers an Iron Wall of English
          bayonets."

          On these issues Rabbi Judas L. Magnes, President of
          the Hebrew University Jerusalem wrote, "by definition
          a Jewish state means that Jews will govern other
          people, other people who live in this Jewish
          state…Jabotinsky knew this long ago. He was the
          prophet of the Jewish state...In his early writings he
          said: 'Has a people ever been known to give up its
          territory of its own volition? Likewise, the Arabs of
          Palestine will not renounce their sovereignty without
          violence.'"

          On the morals of Jabotinsky's plans and his desire
          to extinguish all hopes of the Palestinian people he
          is as clear in the "Iron Wall" as Hitler is of his
          intentions in "Mein Kampf" with Jabotinsky stating:
          "To the hackneyed reproach that this point of view is
          unethical, I answer 'absolutely untrue.' This is our
          ethic. There is no other ethic. As long as there is
          the faintest hope for the Arabs to impede us they will
          not sell these hopes - not for any sweet word nor for
          any tasty morsel, because this is not a rabble but a
          people, a living people. And no people makes such
          enormous concessions on such fateful questions, except
          when there is no hope left, until we have removed
          every opening visible in the Iron Wall."

          In 1940 Jabotinsky states in "The Jewish War
          Front": "Since we have the moral authority for calmly
          envisaging the exodus of the Arabs, we need not regard
          the possible departure of 900,000 with dismay. Herr
          Hitler has recently been enhancing the popularity of
          population transfer."

          While the Arabs of Palestine were extremely
          tolerant of the Zionists who were moving in to take
          their land and their hopes the Zionist movement was
          never interested in forming any sort of alliance with
          the Arab people. Instead the Zionist movement from
          its inception was openly anti-Arab and
          pro-imperialist, even though those same imperial
          powers were the same ones who were carrying out
          pogroms against the Jews in the ghettos across Europe.
          This pro-imperialist policy included close relations
          with the pogromist leaders of anti-Semitic Czarist
          Russia who murdered tens of thousands of Jews, and
          later Zionist support and deals that aided the fascist
          death camps of Nazi Germany.

          Jews, in fact, are victims of Zionism along side
          Arabs. From the beginning of Hitler's seizure of
          power in 1933 the Zionist movement lent their support
          to the Nazis, support which lasted until at least 1944
          when they aided Hitler's "final solution" in Hungary
          killing 800,000 Jews. On the surface the idea of
          Zionist relations with the Nazis may sound illogical
          and seem made up. Those relations, however, are well
          documented.

          Hitler seized power in 1933 with a clear fascistic
          program that called for the annihilation of all
          socialists, communists, labor leaders, and Jews.
          Despite this fact the Zionist Federation of Germany
          sent the Nazi Party a memorandum on June 21, 1933
          stating: "…a rebirth of national life such as is
          occurring in German life … must also take place in the
          Jewish national group. On the foundation of the new
          [Nazi] state, which has established itself on the
          principle of race, we wish to fit our community into
          the total structure so that for us, too, in the sphere
          assigned to us, fruitful activity for the Fatherland
          is possible…." (Brenner, Zionism, pg. 48).

          The policy of supporting Hitler was later upheld at
          the World Zionist Organization Congress in 1933 where
          a motion to take action against Hitler was defeated
          240 to 43. Thus the Jewish boycott of the German
          economy at a time of economic weakness and
          vulnerability was broken with the World Zionist
          Organization's Anglo Palestine Bank resuming trade.
          In fact the World Zionist Organization became the
          principal distributors of Nazi goods in Northern
          Europe and the Middle East.

          Feivel Polkes was a member of Zionist leader
          Jabotinsky's Haganah militia. He was sent by
          Jabotinsky to Berlin to inform Nazi leader Adolf
          Eichman of his intention to spy for the S.S. in
          exchange for the release of the money of German Jews
          for use on the Zionist project. Zionist Feivel told
          Nazi Eichman, "Jewish Nationalist Circles are very
          pleased with the radical German policy, since the
          strength of the Jewish population in Palestine would
          be so far increased thereby that in the foreseeable
          future the Jews would reckon upon numerical
          superiority over the Arabs" (from Brenner, "Zionism"
          pg. 99).

          Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's minister of propaganda,
          felt so fond of the Zionist movement and their close
          working relations that he wrote a 12 part report in
          Der Angriff (The Assault) praising the Zionist
          movement and ordered a medallion struck with a
          swastika on one side and the Zionist Star of David on
          the other.

          Collaboration included an agreement in Hungary
          between Zionist agent Dr. Rudolph Kastner and Nazi
          leader Adolph Eichman. Under the 1944 agreement the
          Nazis would murder 800,000 Hungarian Jews without
          Zionist interference and with complete silence from
          the Zionist movement. In exchange 600 prominent Jews
          would be freed from Hungary. The Nazis then opened up
          a Rescue Department in Hungary headed by Kastner.
          These facts were exposed by a survivor named Malchiel
          Greenwald who was subsequently sued by the Israeli
          government, sued by the same leaders that had
          fashioned the deal made by Kastner in the first place.


          Kastner's collaboration with the Nazis was
          confirmed with the Israeli court stating, "The
          sacrifice of the majority of the Jews, in order to
          rescue the prominents was the basic element in the
          agreement between Kastner and the Nazis. This
          agreement fixed the division of the nation into two
          unequal camps, a small fragment of prominents, whom
          the Nazis promised Kastner to save, on the one hand,
          and the majority of Hungarian Jews whom the Nazis
          designated for death, on the other hand." (Judgment
          given on June 22, 1955, Protocol of Criminal Case
          124/53 in District Court, Jerusalem)

          The Zionists subsequently ignored a plan drawn up
          by the resistance that could have saved many, if not
          most, of Hungary's Jews. The Zionist silence and lack
          of action against Nazi atrocities in fact
          characterizes their stance throughout the entire
          holocaust. A plan complete with maps was drawn up
          that would blow-up railroad tracks to the death camps
          and crematoria and airdropped ammunition to the 80,000
          Jews in Auschwitz. Part of the plan also included the
          parachuting of saboteurs to blow up the Auschwitz
          facility that was murdering 13,000 people a day. Had
          the Zionist movement not been so intent on fighting
          the Arabs rather than the real anti-Semite butchers of
          Europe they could have gathered the resources to carry
          out such operations. Likewise Great Britain and the
          United States could have carried out the proposed
          measures as well, but chose not to save the Jews and
          felt no pressure from the silent Zionist movement to
          do so.

          This caused Rabbi Weismandel who had drawn up the
          plans against Auschwitz to ask of the Zionists in July
          1944, "this special message to inform you that
          yesterday the Germans began deportations of Jews from
          Hungary. … The deported ones go to Auschwitz to be put
          to death by cyanide gas. This is the schedule, of
          Auschwitz from yesterday to the end: Twelve thousand
          Jews - men, women and children, old men, infants,
          healthy and sick ones, are to be suffocated daily.
          And you, our brothers in Palestine, in all the
          countries of freedom, and you ministers of all the
          Kingdoms, how do you keep silent in the face of this
          great murder. Silent while thousands upon thousands,
          reaching now to six million Jews, are murdered? And
          silent now, while tens of thousands are still being
          murdered or waiting to be murdered? Their destroyed
          hearts cry out to you for help as they bewail your
          cruelty. Brutal, you are and murderers, too, you are,
          because of the cold bloodedness of the silence in
          which you watch, because you sit with folded arms and
          do nothing, although you could stop or delay the
          murder of Jews at this very hour. You, our brothers,
          sons of Israel, are you insane?" (From Shoenman, "The
          Hidden History of Zionism?")

          The Zionists also fought against the immigration of
          Jews to other countries where they could escape
          extermination. Explaining their policy of pressuring
          Great Britain and the United States not to adopt
          immigration policies that would have saved the lives
          of Jews Zionist leader Ben Gurion stated in 1938: "If
          I knew that it would be possible to save all the
          children in Germany by bringing them over to England
          and only half of them by transporting them to Eretz
          Israel, then I would opt for the second option" (from
          Brenner, "Zionism", pg. 149).

          The ability of the Zionist movement to sacrifice
          the lives of millions of Jews for the settling of
          Palestine had a consistent inner logic. That logic
          speaks volumes. While some of the first victims of
          these Zionist madmen were the Jewish people, the
          Palestinians were next. And today the continued
          Zionist mistreatment of the Palestinian people is one
          of the biggest threats to the lives of Jewish people
          because some of the Arab victims of Zionism now do not
          differentiate between the crimes of Zionism and the
          Jewish people. In addition the Israeli government
          aided in the formation of the anti-Semitic
          organization Hamas and today uses their suicide
          bombings against civilians as a way to gain sympathy
          and support in the Zionist war against the Palestinian
          people (more on this later). Objectively the Zionist
          capitalist state is, in fact, the common enemy of both
          Jews and Arabs.

          In the 1940s Jews were only one third of the
          population of Palestine. The Arab majority had not
          yet been driven from their land. The British, in
          considering their entire imperial interests in the
          Middle East and their need for good relations with
          Arabs had backtracked from their original support of a
          Jewish state in Palestine. Thus the Zionist minority
          carried out a war of independence against Britain in
          order to set up the Jewish state. The Palestinian
          people, the majority of the population, were not
          consulted by the Zionists on what kind of future they
          would like to have for their homeland and had little
          involvement in the war although a few did side with
          British forces.

          After independence from the Britain in 1948 the
          Zionist state began a massive expropriation of
          Palestinian land that has not ended. Becky Johnson's
          claim that, "the Arabs and Muslims who did not flee in
          1948, but stayed in Israel have full citizenship, have
          freedom to practice their religion, own property,
          vote, have representation in the Knesset, and compose
          18% of the population" is so utterly untrue as to defy
          common sense. Besides defying the facts, which we
          shall establish, I ask why most of an entire people
          would voluntarily flee the land in which they had
          built flourishing towns, a rich agriculture, and a
          vibrant cultural life with nowhere else to go? The
          short answer is that they did not flee voluntarily.
          They had met the "Jewish bayonets" of Zionist
          Jabotinsky's "Iron Wall". To deny this fact comes in
          on the same level as those who deny the Holocaust of
          Europe.

          The humiliating conditions of the Palestinian
          people were recently observed by former anti-Apartheid
          fighter Archbishop Desmond Tutu who wrote: "I have
          been very deeply distressed by my visit to the Holy
          Land; it reminded me so much of what happened to us
          black people in South Africa. I have seen the
          humiliation of Palestinians at checkpoints and
          roadblocks, suffering like us when young police
          officers prevented us from moving about.

          "On my visit to the Holy Land I drove to a church
          with the Anglican bishop in Jerusalem. I could hear
          tears in his voice as he pointed to Jewish
          settlements. I thought of the desire of Israelis for
          security. But what of the Palestinians who have lost
          their land and homes?

          "I have experienced Palestinians pointing to what
          were their homes, now occupied by Jewish Israelis. I
          was walking with Canon Naim Ateek (the head of the
          Sabeel Ecumenical Centre) in Jerusalem. He pointed
          and said: 'Our home was over there. We were driven
          out of our home; it is now occupied by Israeli Jews.'

          "My heart aches. I say why are our memories so
          short. Have our Jewish sisters and brothers forgotten
          their humiliation? Have they forgotten the collective
          punishment, the home demolitions, in their own history
          so soon?"

          Although the Israeli government claims that
          Palestinians have the right to own property, this is a
          lie. Ever since 1948 Palestinians in Israel do not
          have the right to own land, because their land is
          often confiscated by force for Hebrew settlement and
          agriculture. Water rights have been systematically
          cut off and diverted away from Palestinian lands and
          given to stolen Hebrew owned lands. Palestinian
          laborers are then denied by law the right to work the
          Hebrew owned agricultural lands, although they are
          sometimes illegally employed as cheap labor with no
          labor rights.

          Palestinians do not have the right to freely
          travel. Reminiscent of chattel slavery, Palestinian
          families are often separated by Israeli officials who
          commonly do not grant necessary permits for
          Palestinians to enter neighborhoods or towns where
          wives, husbands, or children live. In contrast the
          Hebrew population has full rights to travel.

          Palestinians often do not have the right to keep
          their own homes, which are often confiscated or
          bulldozed. The bulldozing of houses is a common
          punishment of families whose children are accused of
          throwing stones at Israeli soldiers. Recently in
          Jenin houses were bulldozed with people inside, an act
          that besides killing people also made an estimated
          4,000 people homeless.

          Palestinians do not have the right to freedom of
          speech and regularly face arrest, torture, and
          execution for their political views. Even Hebrew
          speakers who support rights for Palestinians or an end
          to Israeli wars have, at times, had their press shut
          down by the Israeli government or had their
          demonstrations attacked and beaten by Israeli
          soldiers.

          Palestinians do not have the same right to an
          education as Hebrew speaking people based on the fact
          that higher education is paid for through the forced
          military inscription of Hebrew speakers while
          Palestinians are excluded from the military. It would
          in fact make no sense for the Zionists to allow
          Palestinians into their military since military
          humiliation, brutality, and outright terror against
          Palestinians is a part of every day duty for an
          Israeli soldier. Likewise few blacks served in the
          Apartheid military of South Africa.

          Those Palestinians that are then driven out of what
          was once Palestine usually are not allowed to return,
          while Jews who have never set foot in Israel are
          granted automatic citizenship (with the exception of
          two Jewish supporters of Palestinians named Ralph
          Shoenman and Mya Shone who have the honor of not being
          allowed into Israel because of their writings). Those
          Palestinians that are forced from Israel are often
          bombed by Israel in their refugee camps or massacred
          in other ways. In the 1982 case of the Sabra and
          Chatila refugee camps in Lebanon, Palestinians were
          rounded up and systematically slaughtered in the
          thousands by Israeli troops and their Phalangist
          Militia allies.

          As survivor Mrs. Sersawi testified in a Belgium
          appeals court on the Israeli governments war crimes,
          "The Lebanese forces militia [Phalangists] had taken
          us from our homes and marched us up to the entrance of
          the camp where a large hole had been dug in the earth.
          The men were told to get into it. Then the
          militiamen shot a Palestinian. The women and children
          climbed over bodies to get to this spot, but we were
          truly shocked by seeing this man killed in front of us
          and there was a roar of shouting and screams from the
          women. That's when we heard the Israelis on a
          loudspeaker shouting, 'give us your men.' We thought,
          'thank God, they will save us.'

          "We were told to walk up the road to the Kuwaiti
          Embassy, the women and children in front, the men
          behind. We had been separated. There were Phalangist
          Militiamen and Israeli soldiers walking alongside us.
          I could still see Hassan (her husband with whom she
          was 3 months pregnant) and Faraj (her brother-in-law).
          It was like a parade. There were several hundred of
          us. When we got to Cite Sportif, the Israelis put us
          women in a big concrete room and the men were taken to
          another side of the stadium. There were a lot of men
          from the camp and I could no longer see my husband.
          The Israelis went around saying 'Sit, sit.' It was 11
          AM. An hour later we were told to leave. But we
          stood outside amid the Israeli soldiers, waiting for
          our men.

          "Some men came out, none of them younger than 40,
          and they told us to be patient, that hundreds of men
          were still inside. Then about 4 PM an Israeli officer
          came out. He was wearing dark glasses and said in
          Arabic: 'What are you waiting for?' He said there was
          nobody left, that everyone had gone. There were
          Israeli trucks moving out with tarpaulin over them.
          We couldn't see inside. And there were jeeps and
          tanks and a bulldozer making a lot of noise. We
          stayed there as it got dark and the Israelis appeared
          to be leaving and we were very nervous. But when the
          Israelis had moved away, we went inside. And there
          was no one there. Nobody. I had been only three
          years married. I never saw my husband again."

          Sabra and Shatila are only one of the massacres of
          people done by the Israeli government in the past 54
          years of Israeli occupation of Palestinian land.
          Today all of the Palestinian towns of historic
          Palestine are either occupied by Israeli troops who
          are killing people or surrounded by Israeli troops and
          tanks who are poised to attack. While Israeli troops
          are claiming that they are only killing combatants
          Human Rights Watch has documented the following crimes
          in Jenin alone: murders of civilians including
          children, the old, and the disabled; summary
          executions; the bulldozing of houses with people in
          them; and the use of Palestinian civilians as human
          shields.
          The cities of Ramallah and Jenin have been laid to
          waste by the Zionists just as the Nazis smashed the
          towns of Guarnica and Lidice in the name of collective
          punishment. Likewise the heroic resistance of
          Palestinian fighters in the face of superior military
          force is reminiscent of the Jewish fighters in the
          Warsaw Ghetto and Vilna.

          The Israeli offensive will not stop those willing
          to do suicide missions against civilians, attacks that
          are futile attempts to combat the genocide
          Palestinians face. The Israeli offensive does the
          opposite in deepening the conditions that created
          suicide bombers in the first place. The anger created
          is by escalated Israeli murder is actually more likely
          to increase the number tragic of attacks on Hebrew
          civilians. At the same time Israel has not targeted
          the main base of the suicide bombers, Gaza, where
          Hamas is heavily organized. In fact, the murderous
          Israeli repression really isn't meant to stop attacks
          on Hebrew civilians because these bombings by Hamas
          actually play right into the Zionist government's aims
          and objectives in pushing for a final solution against
          the Palestinian people and the Palestinian Authority
          who the Israeli government consistently blame for the
          attacks by Hamas.


          (See Part 2)
          • Unsu...
             
            How Israel Promotes Anti-Semitism (Part 2)

            Hamas is an anti-Semitic fundamentalist religious
            organization that killed 150 Israeli civilians through
            suicide bombings between 1994 and 1998 alone. From
            its beginnings as the Mujama in the 1970s to this day
            Hamas does not face the same kind of repression as any
            other Palestinian group. In addition Hamas reportedly
            receives $28 million dollars a year from another key
            U.S. ally in the region, Saudi Arabia.

            The U.S. and the Saudi Arabian monarchy work
            together closely to systematically loot Saudi Arabia's
            oil resources for the profits of U.S. oil monopolies
            while the vast majority of the Saudi people live in
            poverty. In addition the U.S., Saudi Arabia, and
            Hamas worked together closely in the U.S. war drive to
            destroy the left progressive PDPA government that held
            power in Afghanistan from 1978 to 1992. This was a
            war where the U.S. government and Saudi Arabia gave
            billions of dollars of military aid to Osama Bin Laden
            and the Islamic fundamentalists of the Mujahedin who
            were waging a holy war against the advances in women's
            rights, including women's literacy, that were
            occurring under the PDPA government. Tactics of the
            Mujahedin included throwing acid in the faces of women
            liberated from the veil and murdering women for
            teaching little girls how to read and write. Fearing
            a Mujahedin government right on its border and
            defending the PDPA government from U.S. aggression the
            Soviet Union sent troops into Afghanistan in 1979.
            Although these Soviet troops were invited by the
            Afghan PDPA U.S. propaganda called this a Soviet
            invasion.

            An estimated 100,000 of the Islamic fundamentalists
            who fought in Afghanistan were recruited by the CIA
            outside of Afghanistan. Hamas participated in this
            activity. As John Cooley from ABC news pointed out on
            March 13th, 1996 in the International Herald Tribune:
            "A key Hamas organizer was Abdallah Azzam. He was a
            tough, brilliant and charismatic Palestinian from
            Jordan. He supervised training for the CIA's Afghan
            guerrillas in Peshawar, Pakistan, where a car bomb
            killed him in 1989. In the earlier 1980s he toured
            the United States, recruiting Arab-Americans for the
            anti-Soviet jihad in Afghanistan."

            Just as the United States used Hamas against the
            Afghani people and the leftist PDPA government, Israel
            has used the religious fundamentalists of Hamas as a
            club against the socialist and secular nationalist
            movements in Palestine that Hamas has violently
            opposed. It is those secular and socialist movements
            that Israel has seen as more of a threat in terms of
            winning the masses of people, including Hebrew
            speakers, over to positions of sympathy and solidarity
            with the Palestinians. Hamas's suicide bombers
            against civilians instead serve Zionist interests in
            driving a larger wedge between Palestinians and Hebrew
            speakers, people who will need to unite against their
            common oppressor and killer, the Israeli Zionist
            government.

            Early Israeli support for Hamas included in 1978
            the granting of Mujama charitable status in Gaza while
            other organizations, especially political
            organizations as Mujama was, could not get such
            status. In 1979 Israeli collusion with the Mujama
            movement set up the Islamic University of Gaza whose
            anti-PLO and anti-socialist slogan was: "How can
            uncovered women and men with Beatle haircuts liberate
            our holy places?" Students who did not tow the
            Islamic line were disciplined through brutal beatings
            and sometimes had acid thrown in their faces. In
            addition Mujama mobs were allowed to violently attack
            and burn down PLO controlled institutions at a time
            when other street demonstrations were not allowed or
            tightly controlled by the Israeli authorities.

            In 1979 the Mujama movement burned the Palestinian
            Red Crescent Society's (PRC) building to the ground.
            In response the PRC issued the following statement,
            "The tacit approval of the authorities, if not their
            actual connivance in what happened, was displayed in
            their attitude of non-interference. While they
            usually display great alertness to combating even
            peaceful demonstrations of young students within
            schools, here they stood indifferently watching a
            violently destructive demonstration march to its
            objectives."

            In 1988 Hamas was formed out of Mujama. While PLO
            supporters were organizing mass demonstrations in the
            streets Hamas was instead focusing on shooting Israeli
            soldiers. Despite this fact Hamas had top-level
            meetings with the Israeli government while that same
            government would not even meet with the PLO. Milton
            Edwards in "Islamic Politics In Palestine" noted the
            relationship: "The relationship between Hamas and the
            Israeli authorities was, however, at the strongest
            during the second year of the Intifada. The Israelis
            had been quick to extend legitimacy status to Hamas in
            an attempt to marginalize the PLO. Leaders of Hamas
            were regularly filmed at meetings with top-level
            Israeli officials and the message the Israelis were
            sending out was that they regarded Hamas as the type
            of people with whom they could work…

            "In addition the Israelis continued turning a blind
            eye to large amounts of money coming into the country
            destined for Hamas coffers, while at the same time
            stopping the flow of PLO funds in support of the
            Intifada."

            In 1994 Hamas began its indiscriminate attacks on
            Hebrew speaking people through suicide bombings.
            Those suicide bombings had been stepped up by Hamas in
            the beginnings of the Intifada 2 uprising in September
            2000, but then ended due to an agreement between
            Arafat's Palestinian Authority and Hamas. While this
            agreement was in effect world attention became focused
            on the gunning down of Palestinian children by Israeli
            sharp shooters on the West Bank. For the Zionist
            government this was becoming a public relations
            disaster.

            Israeli Prime Minister Sharon needed a new
            provocation he could use as propaganda to escalate the
            war against the Palestinian people and the Palestinian
            Authority (P.A.). To create this provocation he took
            action to end the truce between the P.A. and Hamas on
            ending the suicide bombings of civilians. On November
            23rd Israeli security forces assassinated Hamas leader
            Mahmud Abu Hunud. On November 25th, 2001 right-wing
            Israeli journalist Alex Fishman accurately observed in
            the "Yediot Achronot": "Whoever gave the green light
            to this act of liquidation knew full well that he is
            thereby shattering in one blow the gentleman's
            agreement between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority;
            under that agreement, Hamas was to avoid in the near
            future suicide bombings inside the Green Line."

            Of course no one but Sharon could have given the
            green light for such an important operation. Sharon's
            provocation against the Hamas anti-Semites had its
            intended affect. Within days Hamas resumed attacks
            against Israeli civilians. In March a Hamas bomber
            killed 25 civilians in the Passover attack that was
            then used by Sharon as his excuse to attack the
            Palestinian people and the Palestinian Authority while
            leaving the Hamas stronghold of Gaza untouched.

            The U.S. government's massive military support to
            the Zionist State and, to a lesser extent to the
            repressive Saudi Arabian monarchy is responsible for
            the bloodshed in Palestine. The racist state of
            Israel currently receives 300,000 dollars per hour in
            U.S. military and economic aid. The F-16 bombers,
            Apache and Cobra helicopters used in the latest
            attacks are just some of the weapons used to kill
            Palestinians that are made in the United States.

            Socialists stand for an end to U.S. military aid to
            Israel and all of the crowned princes, sheiks, emirs,
            and Islamic fanatics of the Middle East. We
            understand that these U.S. policies are the policies
            of both the Democrat and Republican Parties.
            Imperialist policy isn't the result of some
            misunderstanding by these parties of the wealthy.
            Instead the repressive and genocidal policies of U.S.
            imperialism flow from the drive for profits by the
            rapacious U.S. capitalists that rule America and much
            of the world. From this understanding socialists know
            that the only way we will get a just foreign policy,
            fair treatment of workers and the poor, and sound
            ecological policies is through a socialist revolution
            in the United States.

            ---Steve Argue, for Liberation News
  • What utter nonsense. Then again considering that Steven's a Soviet apologist and thinks that Stalin got a bum rap....
    • Unsu...
       
      I'm not a Soviet apologist and I'm not a Stalinist. But I guess Brent is a Zionist apologist.
      • and an apologist for the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan too


        Oh, yes a dangerous "Zionist apologist"


        I should have added anti-semite to my earlier charges too.......
        • Unsu...
           
          O.K., great, we're going to have a thread where I have to answer various rightwing attacks against me.

          As is clear in my writings, I am not an anti-Semite.

          As for Afghanistan, it was U.S. intervention on behalf of murderous misogynist religious fanatics that brought Soviet troops into Afghanistan to defend the pro-woman pro-literacy PDPA government.

          U.S. intervention brought the Mujahideen and Taliban to power. I think history has come to prove my position correct.
          • <O.K., great, we're going to have a thread where I have to answer various rightwing attacks against me. >

            Well, substantiate your claims, and there will not be any more attacks.

            You have all sorts of unsubstantiated claims in your article, so substantiate them, please.
            • "You have all sorts of unsubstantiated claims in your article, so substantiate them, please."


              Andrew, you should know that is totally against Steven's character
              • Steven, I appreciate your willingness to stick your neck out, when few are willing to do that.
                I don't always agree with your positions, but I often find truth in what you say.
                People have to be willing to be provocative and speak plainly about injustice, which you do.

                Americans are far too passive, far too lazy and aren't willing to get angry about things.
                I am extremely lucky to have spent time on my grandfathers farm in the summertime
                when my grandfather and uncles would argue like all get out.

                My grandfather was an anarchist, one uncle was a democrat, one was a communist,
                and my father was a republican. Those were stimulating times, but modern
                people are pretty apathetic and when they are passionate, they are usually
                intolerant. My family would curse and yell, but an hour later they were all good.

                Thanks for pushing the boundaries to the left a bit with your impassioned articles.
              • Unsu...
                 
                Andrew says, "You have all sorts of unsubstantiated claims in your article, so substantiate them, please."

                I do substantiate my claims. Would you care to be a bit more specific?
                • <I do substantiate my claims. Would you care to be a bit more specific?>

                  OK.

                  "Under the 1944 agreement the Nazis would murder 800,000 Hungarian Jews without Zionist interference and with complete silence from the Zionist movement. In exchange 600 prominent Jews would be freed from Hungary."

                  So, please prove that there was collusion that caused to occur what you suggested occur. You make the accusation, but did what you say actually happen? I do not doubt that there were some collaborators, but did they collaborate in the manner that you accuse them? Prove it.

                  I have read through your hyper-partisan missive and have found ABSOLUTELY NO SUBSTANTIATION to your claims. None. Not a one.

                  Please provide your proof that you used to write this essay. I mean, if you wrote it, I assume that you found proof, so.......care to clue us into the proof?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     
                    Andrew says, "I have read through your hyper-partisan missive and have found ABSOLUTELY NO SUBSTANTIATION to your claims. None. Not a one."

                    Not one? Give me a break.

                    Kastner's collaboration with the Nazis was confirmed with the Israeli court stating, "The sacrifice of the majority of the Jews, in order to rescue the prominents was the basic element in the agreement between Kastner and the Nazis. This agreement fixed the division of the nation into two unequal camps, a small fragment of prominents, whom the Nazis promised Kastner to save, on the one hand, and the majority of Hungarian Jews whom the Nazis designated for death, on the other hand." (Judgment given on June 22, 1955, Protocol of Criminal Case 124/53 in District Court, Jerusalem; cited in Ralph Schoenman’s “Hidden History of Zionism”)
                    • <Kastner's collaboration with the Nazis was confirmed with the Israeli court stating, "The sacrifice of the majority of the Jews, in order to rescue the prominents was the basic element in the agreement between Kastner and the Nazis. This agreement fixed the division of the nation into two unequal camps, a small fragment of prominents, whom the Nazis promised Kastner to save, on the one hand, and the majority of Hungarian Jews whom the Nazis designated for death, on the other hand." (Judgment given on June 22, 1955, Protocol of Criminal Case 124/53 in District Court, Jerusalem; cited in Ralph Schoenman’s “Hidden History of Zionism”)>

                      Why didn't you quote that in your original post? You pasted only the first few words of that paragraph.

                      So, you have one guy who chose to save his family and friends instead of strangers. Well, that sucks.

                      Let's look at the title of this thread, "Are Jews responsible for killing 800,000 of thier own?"

                      What is your reasoning for even posting this thread? Were there collaborators? Yes. What I wonder, is if I was there, and the Nazis gave me the choice, "We will kill you, your wife, your children, your bothers and sisters and their children, your father, your mother, their bothers and sisters and their children, ... or, you help us......" I wonder what I'd do, Steven. I wonder what you would do. If I was thinking about my child as I had to make this choice.......? I wonder what I'd do?

                      What was the reason for this thread, Steven? To show that there were collaborators that made horrible and difficult choices? What was your point?

                      <This all true and nothing about it is anti-Semitic.>

                      Depends on your purpose behind the post, I suppose.

                      uspolitics.tribe.net/thread/...0d75f3e5

                      Read that one again, Steven. I think that your agenda leads you, as opposed to being led by the facts and the base honesty of the situation.

                      You'll find I am sure next how throughout time, there has been a region called "Palestine", but that is not what is being discussed. The PEOPLE there had never been called "Palestinians" until it became politically expedient to do so. Even Arafat himself is famously quoted as NOT wanting to be called "Palestinian", and saying himself that there are no "Palestinians" until he wanted to be the leader of the "Palestinians". I bet that you don't even know this.

                      Steven, look into therapy instead of this need to promote this agenda.

                      The facts are so simple:

                      1) Israel will be there for a long, long time, so whining about that is just whining.
                      2) States that wanted to make peace with Israel have peace with Israel.
                      3) Israel has been on the defensive since the VERY DAY of its inception, so why are you surprised that the Israelis are rather overtly and reflexively defensive?
                      4) You'd better spend your time counciling the "Palestinians" to make the peace that they are offered. Otherwise, you will whine until you are an old man, and they STILL won't have a country. Be smart - do what is RIGHT, not what your own reflexive psychological needs compel you to do. Take control of your impulses.

                      So, in this thread, we see what horrible choices some Hungarian Jews had (My great-grandfather was Hungarian), who had the choice of saving their family or not, and we see also in this thread that some of the original Zionists were as batshit crazy as you are.

                      Got it. See? Agenda-compelled people make bad choices. You should learn from your own thread, and point this out to the P's.
                      • Unsu...
                         
                        Andrew asks, "Why didn't you quote that in your original post? You pasted only the first few words of that paragraph."

                        I did. I posted the entire paragraph. Those who butchered my article did otherwise.

                        "What is your reasoning for even posting this thread?"

                        I didn't.

                        Here is my original article, before it was butchered and changed by the pro-Zionist site that Sean cut and pasted it from:

                        How Israel Promotes Anti-Semitism
                        www.indybay.org/newsitems/...8472076.php
        • he also defends the actions of Mao Zedong
          • Unsu...
             
            Here we go again.

            No, I am not a Maoist, and while I'll defend Mao on some questions, I strongly oppose his actions on others.
            • Unsu...
               
              The complete works of Steven A.:

              blah blah blah imperialist expansion blah blah zionist aggression blah blah blah colonialist oppression blah blah capitalist bloodlust blah blah downtrodden workers blah blah blah Mao blah blah blah Stalin blah blah blah Cuba blah blah Castro

              *yawn*
              • Unsu...
                 
                Luminous is one of the funniest people in the world.
                • What is so shocking to know or even try to understand that people will kill there own people as long as the inevitable outcome is achieved, for what ever reason. Its not new. Stalin killed 7 million, Mao killed 50 million. You got slaughter going on in Dafur, revoultions and rebellions are world wide. Amnesty International assesed that over 250 million people were genocided in the last Century. Isn't genocide killing your own people. How about central America where death squads shot socialist. If you take the idea of the article and take out the word Jew, then there would be no indication of being either Semitic or anti Semitic and you are dealing with only simple people. For me Zionism is no different than fascism. So instead of using Zionist use Fascist and then you may understand why this "could" happen. Actually the topic should read more like ---Are (Certain) jews responsible for killing -------It may sound a bit clearer, after all what is being refered here is that all jews where responsible for killing jews. That wouldn't make sense.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     
                    Absurd. Mao did not kill 50 million people.

                    As I said earlier, "No, I am not a Maoist, and while I'll defend Mao on some questions, I strongly oppose his actions on others."
  • Unsu...
     

    Jewish Praise for Article

    Mon, January 14, 2008 - 5:57 AM
    I have reproduced your article on my blog, as I need as many eyes as possible to see it. I am a Sephardic Jewess, and came to this country as a refugee from Egypt. I have never felt more Jewish, and yet I despise the word "zionist".

    I find way too many Jews ready to pounce on me and others of a like mind, as they did to this man, for opposing zionism. The two are not mutually exclusive; you can be Jewish, love your people and tradition, and still not agree with the zionist principles.
    • Re: Jewish Praise for Article

      Mon, January 14, 2008 - 7:46 AM
      Let me know steven when you are able to define what those Zionist principles are that you don't agree with, or if you can define any at all.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Jewish Praise for Article

        Mon, January 14, 2008 - 8:12 AM
        It's really pretty simple Brent. I don't agree with providing a homeland for one people by denying a homeland of another people (as has been done by force and violence to the Palestinian people). In addition, I don't agree with the government produced by that ideology discriminating against the native people in many horrible ways. I don't like how that racist state, with massive U.S. military aid, is always at war with its neighbors either. Further more, I see religious states as superstitious and discriminatory as well.
        • Re: Jewish Praise for Article

          Mon, January 14, 2008 - 8:17 AM
          "Further more, I see religious states as superstitious and discriminatory as well."


          Good point, but the problem with that is the Jews are as much a ethnicity as they are a religion


          PS do you have any examples of official policy by Isreal, that shows a state policy influenced by a overly religous ideology?
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: Jewish Praise for Article

            Mon, January 14, 2008 - 10:13 AM
            Here's one of many examples of the problems with a theocratic state:

            www.jta.org:80/cgi-bin/io...grants.html
            Israel's "non-Jewish Jews"
            struggle with identity, exclusion
            By Dina Kraft Published: 12/27/2007


            TEL AVIV (JTA) – In Israel, the “non-Jewish Jews,” as some Israelis call them, are everywhere. They drive buses, teach university classes, patrol in army jeeps and follow the latest Israeli reality TV shows as avidly as their Jewish counterparts.
            For these people -- mostly immigrants from the former Soviet Union who are not Jews according to Israeli law -- the question of where they fit into the Jewish state remains unanswered nearly two decades after they began coming to Israel.

            At an estimated 320,000 people and with their ranks growing due to childbirth, the question is growing ever more acute.

            "They are not going to be religious, but want to be part of what is called the Jewish secular population," said Asher Cohen, a political scientist at Bar-Ilan University who has written a book on the subject.

            "Thousands are being born here and they are no longer immigrants. They are raised just like their secular neighbors and these children want to know why they are not Jewish because their mother is not Jewish,” he said. “The problem is just getting worse."

            In almost every respect, these Israelis live as do their secular fellow countrymen, even marking the Jewish holidays, lighting candles on Chanukah and conducting Seders on Passover. But, because they do not qualify as Jews according to halachah, or Jewish law, they are treated differently when it comes to matters that are the purview of the Orthodox-controlled religious establishment, such as lifecycle events like marriage, divorce and burial.

            For some, the real question is about identity and fitting in.

            Unlike non-Jews residing in Israel illegally, these are people who qualified to immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return, which grants the right of Israeli citizenship to all descendents of a Jewish grandparent or those married to such persons. But the Israeli government does not consider them Jews because their mothers are not Jewish. Non-Jewish Israelis constitute almost a third of all immigrants from the former Soviet Union.

            Some of these people say they've always considered themselves Jewish and were thought as such by others -- until, that is, they came to Israel.

            Lilia Itskov, 36, grew up in Siberia with a paternal grandmother who preserved the traditions of her observant Jewish home. She said she is heartbroken when her daughter questions whether they are Jewish because Itskov's mother was not Jewish.

            "She studies the Bible in school; it's all she knows," Itskov said of her daughter. "She cannot understand why she is not considered a Jew."

            Itskov observed Jewish holidays even back in Siberia, and she says she never tried to hide her Jewishness.

            "I want people to understand we are part of this country and where we lived before we were always considered Jews," she said. "And now, after so many years, I am told that I am a goy."

            Others are believing Christians who struggle to maintain their religious identity while living in Jewish communities in Israel. Keeping a low profile, many of them attend religious services on Sundays in community members' apartments or go to Arab-run Christian churches in Jerusalem and Jaffa on major holidays. In the Israeli Arab village of Abu Ghosh, near Jerusalem, there are church services held in Hebrew.

            "Little is known about them, there is no research about them and they try to hide their faith," Cohen said of the active Christians among the Russian-speaking immigrants. "It's hard for them to be Christians in any overt way here."

            For Vera Gorman, 21, whose family immigrated to Israel from Russia seven years ago and whose mother's grandfather was Jewish, the sting of exclusion hit for the first time when it came time to marry.

            In Israel, where there is no civil marriage, all citizens must be married by clergymen, and Jewish clergy are not allowed to perform intermarriages. Vera is Jewish but the man she planned on marrying, Maxim Gorman, was not, so there was no way for the couple to get married in Israel. Instead, they had to go to Prague. Marriages abroad are recognized in Israel.

            Vera said she and Maxim were angry and bewildered by the rules.

            Maxim, 25, who served in an IDF combat unit and twice was injured in fighting in Gaza, said he does not understand why, if he spilled blood for his country, he had to go to abroad on the most important day of his life.

            "It was especially hard because although I am not Jewish according to halachah, I do feel Jewish in my heart," he said. "In my opinion, state and religion simply do not go together. Israel needs to be democratic and Jewish, and we need to protect our traditions because this is what unites us. But we live in the 21st century and we need to be going forward.”

            Some Israelis, especially religious ones, take issue with the large number of non-Jews able to become Israeli, saying they threaten the Jewish character of the state.

            They complain about the rising number of butchers that sell pork and condemn the proliferation of Christmas trees, tinsel and plastic Santa Claus dolls that go on sale at shops around the country around Christmastime to cater to the growing population in Israel that celebrates the holiday.

            Russian immigrants -- Jews among them -- say they’re not so much celebrating Christmas as participating in festivities honoring the new year.

            A few rabbis and members of Orthodox parties in the Knesset have suggested changing the Law of Return to exclude non-Jews from becoming Israeli. But many secular Israelis argue against such changes and say immigration is vital to the country's future.

            Despite the challenges they face in Israel as non-Jews, only a minority of non-Jewish immigrants to Israel choose to convert to Judaism.

            Because Orthodox conversions are the only kind accepted by the Israeli Chief Rabbinate, which controls religious law in Israel, prospective converts must master Jewish knowledge and pledge to become strictly observant Jews. Most immigrants from the former Soviet Union -- both Jewish and not -- are secular and uninterested in enduring a lengthy, restrictive conversion process.

            To try to deal with the problem, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's office announced this week that it was adopting recommendations to help restructure the conversion process to increase the number of religious court judges officiating in conversion cases and drop the demand that converts become religious Jews as a condition of the conversion. Olmert's office hopes these changes will prompt more immigrants to choose to convert.

            The army is also trying to ease the conversion process. Nativ, a program sponsored jointly by the Jewish Agency for Israel and the government, is known for its welcoming attitude toward prospective converts and focuses on soldiers who are immigrants from the former Soviet Union. To date, it has shepherded about 2,000 soldiers through the process.

            Daniel Gordis, vice president of the Shalem Center, a Jerusalem think tank, says the question is not so much whether the immigrants are Jews according to halachah but how the state treats them.

            "How do we reach out to these people to help them see their connection to Judaism as the unfolding story of the Jewish people in this land?" he said.
            • Re: Jewish Praise for Article

              Mon, January 14, 2008 - 11:31 PM

              Steven, this latest story that you posted, '"Israel's "non-Jewish Jews"' really is making me think that you have an issue with Jews, not with Israel. I have not thought this before, but I have to wonder why you spend so much time complaining about Israel when there are so many places that are far, far worse off than just this one country.

              What's your story? Why not spend more time writing about the Congo? Why not spend a second writing about women in Afghanistan? Why not spend some time writing about Burma or N. Korea? Why the fixation with Israel?

              Is this new guy Tim a friend of yours? You guys get together and talk about Jews?
              • Unsu...
                 

                Re: Jewish Praise for Article

                Fri, January 18, 2008 - 10:37 AM
                "Steven, this latest story that you posted, '"Israel's "non-Jewish Jews"' really is making me think that you have an issue with Jews, not with Israel."

                The article is from a Jewish news source. It shows some of the many problems of discrimination under a theocratic government.

                "Why not spend more time writing about the Congo?"

                I have. I had a weekly talk radio show from 1996 to about 2003; in 1998 I did a two hour radio show on the conflict in the Congo based on an article I wrote on the subject.

                "Why not spend a second writing about women in Afghanistan?"

                I have written about 15 different articles on Afghanistan, including articles opposing the Mujahideen and Taliban before 9/11.

                "Why not spend some time writing about Burma or N. Korea?"

                I've written a few articles on North Korea, nothing yet on Burma. When the latest repression occurred in Burma I was too busy to write anything, but I did see some good articles in the socialist press. I can't always write on everything.

                "Why the fixation with Israel?"

                As you can see, of the somewhat random countries you've picked, I've written on them all with the exception of Burma. Yet Israel is a racist, murderous, theocratic state that could not exist without the intervention of BILLIONS of dollars in U.S. aid. This is a very good reason for Americans to pay attention to what is happening in Israel.

                "Is this new guy Tim a friend of yours? You guys get together and talk about Jews?"

                I don't know Tim and haven't caught any of his posts.
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: Jewish Praise for Article

                  Fri, January 18, 2008 - 10:55 AM
                  OK, I just saw this Tim guy's posts. He's a raving lunatic. You have no justification for painting me with that brush.
                • Re: Jewish Praise for Article

                  Fri, January 18, 2008 - 2:33 PM
                  <The article is from a Jewish news source. It shows some of the many problems of discrimination under a theocratic government. >

                  Oh, well - it's from a "Jewish news source". Well, say no more!!!! I am sorry that ever questioned your agenda. I mean, if you used a "Jewish news source", that means that you have no agenda. Got it. Thanks!

                  <<"Why not spend more time writing about the Congo?">>

                  <I have. I had a weekly talk radio show from 1996 to about 2003; in 1998 I did a two hour radio show on the conflict in the Congo based on an article I wrote on the subject.>

                  Well, spend MORE time. Things are bad NOW, and while I am sure that the Congolese really appreciated your impact between '98 and '03, they are still having a MUCH WORSE TIME than the P's, so.........what? Did you tire of championing the Congolese and now have moved on to the P's? I just find it odd that of all the ills of the world, you spend ALL OF YOUR TIME on Israel. How interesting.....

                  <<"Why not spend a second writing about women in Afghanistan?"

                  <I have written about 15 different articles on Afghanistan, including articles opposing the Mujahideen and Taliban before 9/11.>

                  Well, GREAT!!!! Why not spend forty seconds in THIS forum on Afghanistan and the plight of women there instead of only picking on Israel? It's like you don't even get involved with ANY OTHER discussions at all. Just Israel. If I see your posts, they pretty much always have to do with Israel. Why is that? Why nothing on the Congo? Why nothing on the plight of women in Afghanistan? Do the slaughters in Congo and the burnings of women in Afghanistan not warrant at least SOME discussion? Why just Israel?

                  <<"Why not spend some time writing about Burma or N. Korea?">>

                  <I've written a few articles on North Korea, nothing yet on Burma. When the latest repression occurred in Burma I was too busy to write anything, but I did see some good articles in the socialist press. I can't always write on everything. >

                  True, too true. Especially when you're fixated on Israel.

                  <As you can see, of the somewhat random countries you've picked, I've written on them all with the exception of Burma.>

                  Not here you haven't. At least, not in any measure as to make your contribution noteworthy.

                  <Yet Israel is a racist, murderous, theocratic state that could not exist without the intervention of BILLIONS of dollars in U.S. aid. This is a very good reason for Americans to pay attention to what is happening in Israel.>

                  Yes, but this is what is going on in Congo these days:

                  Sexual violence in Congo is "the worst in the world"
                  www.europarl.europa.eu/news/e..._es.htm

                  "More than four million people in the past 10 years have reportedly died there because of fighting between the Congolese army and assorted rebels and militia groups.....What sets the Congo apart from other hellish scenes in Africa, however, has been the use of mass rape to instill absolute fear into whole villages. Worse still is that the sadistic violence accompanying the rapes has achieved a previously unprecedented level."
                  www.tauntongazette.com/news/x1925665574

                  FOUR MILLION!!!!!!!!!! FOUR FUCKING MILLION!!!!!!! Wow. Four million. That's almost as many people as Israel has killed, 'eh?

                  That's Congo.....but! What about Afghanistan!? Want me to pull up stories about honor killings?

                  I tell you what........you just keep fixating on Israel, and let someone else educate us about all the rest of the horrific ills going on all over the world. You just fixate on Israel.

                  So, go! Fixate! You show them damn Jews what happens when Steven "Argue" gets his ol' hackles up! Y'r going to change the world!!!!!
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    Re: Jewish Praise for Article

                    Fri, January 18, 2008 - 2:40 PM
                    Andrew has an agenda against me and the Palestinians and is not listening. He says:

                    "Well, GREAT!!!! Why not spend forty seconds in THIS forum on Afghanistan and the plight of women there instead of only picking on Israel?"

                    I've spent more than that here on Afghanistan.

                    And it was not me that started this thread, if you want to complain about the fact that I am defending my positions here, go talk to Sean.

                    Yet, as I just said, Israel is a racist, murderous, theocratic state that could not exist without the intervention of BILLIONS of dollars in U.S. aid. This is a very good reason for Americans to pay attention to what is happening in Israel.
                    • Re: Jewish Praise for Article

                      Fri, January 18, 2008 - 3:25 PM
                      <<Yet, as I just said, Israel is a racist, murderous, theocratic state that could not exist without the intervention of BILLIONS of dollars in U.S. aid. This is a very good reason for Americans to pay attention to what is happening in Israel.>>


                      lmao. It's the only functioning democracy in the region. And yes they could exist without US aid. To suggest otherwise is foolish at best.
                      • Unsu...
                         

                        Re: Jewish Praise for Article

                        Fri, January 18, 2008 - 3:42 PM
                        A racist theocratic apartheid state like Israel, is, by definition undemocratic. Yet, there were those that argued that Apartheid South Africa was a democracy as well.

                        And no, Israel could not exist without being propped up by billions of dollars in U.S. aid, but Brent always attacks with pure ignorance.
                        • Re: Jewish Praise for Article

                          Fri, January 18, 2008 - 4:28 PM
                          israel gets something like 30 billions a year in US financial help..........i think that is more than the US Dep. of education gets.
                          • Re: Jewish Praise for Article

                            Fri, January 18, 2008 - 5:11 PM
                            Jay it's more like $3b
                            • Re: Jewish Praise for Article

                              Fri, January 18, 2008 - 5:25 PM
                              Jay, before we cast aspersions on those that were in these ghettos and camps, I may suggest that you put yourself in their position.



                              don't get me wrong.......i do not put blame them.....hell.....if i had to safe my own sorry little ass i think jeffry dahmer would look like a choir boy.

                              just saying that these situations existed ........and no one is really talking about them.
                              • Re: Jewish Praise for Article

                                Fri, January 18, 2008 - 5:34 PM
                                Jay it's more like $3b.


                                well..it is more than 3 billions over all.....3 billions is just military aide.........

                                but yes...it is less than 30 billions............


                                still to much.
                      • Re: Jewish Praise for Article

                        Fri, January 18, 2008 - 7:23 PM
                        <lmao. It's the only functioning democracy in the region. And yes they could exist without US aid. To suggest otherwise is foolish at best.>

                        Brent, can you imagine how repressive Israel would be without the confining hand of the US? It is only the fact that the US gives them money and arms that they feel comfortable in being as restrained as they are.

                        Take away that assistance? Israel would then feel forced to be far, far more brutal just to make sure that everyone around them understood what the game was like that they were playing.

                        Care about the P's? Care about regional stability? Well, then you should be very, very happy about the US efforts in Israel.

                        Not US effort would equal one regional war after another, which Israel would win very, very quickly.

                        <A racist theocratic apartheid state like Israel, is, by definition undemocratic.>

                        Um........................everyone who is an Israeli citizen can vote. So.................your propaganda vs. reality. How does that feel on ya? I bet it does not fit very well.

                        <Yet, there were those that argued that Apartheid South Africa was a democracy as well. >

                        Some would argue that the P's deserve nothing at all. Should a stupid point become a good point because someone wants to make a stupid correlation? The ONLY right that the Israeli Muslims do not have is that they are not allowed to easily bring in family from out of the country.

                        Here's something to chew on: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huma...es_ratings

                        "The Kach Party had run candidates under a platform which proposed forced transfer of Arabs from Israel and establishment of a theocracy in Israel ruled by traditional Jewish law. This platform was felt to be inciting of racism by the Knesset and was banned from participation in elections."

                        WOW! How undemocratic! The Israeli Knesset barred this group from participation in elections! Those horrid Israelis!

                        What else? Well......hmm. The Bedouins are not treated very well, but they can vote all that they like.

                        So, please tell me, how is Israel not democratic? In fact, they are the MOST DEMOCRATIC state in the region by ANY MEASURE.

                        <Yet, there were those that argued that Apartheid South Africa was a democracy as well. >

                        Oh, by the way. Do you really think that we are too stupid to see such blatant manipulations for what they are? That statement is one of the most cynical active efforts to say something without having said it oneself. It's immature and quite stupid. "...there were those that argued..." that Steven molests barn animals. There were those that argued that Steven has a two-inch pee-pee. Get it?

                    • Re: Jewish Praise for Article

                      Fri, January 18, 2008 - 4:56 PM
                      <Andrew has an agenda against me and the Palestinians>

                      HA! I just am sick of your hyper-partisan, one-sided bullshit. Nothing anyone else can say will sway you from your agenda.

                      Seriously, Steven. The Congolese and Afghani women need you to rally to their cause. Don't just pick on Israel or someone may think you have a reason to just pick on Israel......
        • Re: Jewish Praise for Article

          Mon, January 14, 2008 - 11:14 AM
          <<It's really pretty simple Brent. I don't agree with providing a homeland for one people by denying a homeland of another people (as has been done by force and violence to the Palestinian people)>>


          Except they weren't denied. The Arab League rejected the solution and attacked Israel from the get go.

          The term "palestinian" doesn't come into existence until at least 1968.

          Steven I suggest you get your facts straight....
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: Jewish Praise for Article

            Mon, January 14, 2008 - 3:51 PM
            Brent falsely claims, "The term "palestinian" doesn't come into existence until at least 1968."

            1968? Wow, you really haven't looked at this question at all have you Brent?

            Palestine was in existence as a recognized territory of the Ottoman Empire long before British control and even before the beginnings of Jewish colonization by the Zionist movement. It was later the name of the British colony.

            These inhabitants of the region also had Arab nationalist sentiments that opposed the control of the Ottoman Empire before the creation of the Zionist State and have since opposed many of the U.S., French, and British imposed kings, crown princes, emirs, sheiks, etc. that Zionists like to claim represent the aspirations of the Arab people.

            Your attempt to deny a people of even the name of their nationality and homeland is consistent with an ideology that denies an entire people of the right to their homeland. The fact that bloody repression and horrible discrimination has driven the majority of Palestinians from large parts of their homeland without the right of return is not enough. The Zionist movement wants to wipe away the rightful name of the land they have conquered by re-writing history and denying there ever was a Palestine.

            From its beginnings in the eighteen hundreds the Zionist movement had little concern for the Arab inhabitants of the Palestinian land they would settle. Instead, they appealed to imperialist powers as potential allies against the Arab people in setting up their Zionist state. For example, Zionist leader T. Herzl stated around 1897: "If his majesty the Sultan were to give us Palestine, we could undertake to regulate Turkey's finances. For Europe, we would constitute a bulwark against Asia down there; we would be the advance post of civilization against barbarism. As a neutral state, we would remain in constant touch with all of Europe, which would guarantee our existence" (Rodinson, "Israel a Colonial Settler State?").

            By being “neutral”, Herzl is obviously referring to the Zionist dealings with powers of Europe, and not to the colonial "barbarians" already in and around the land he would settle and conquer.

            An Arab leader in Jerusalem named Nassif Bey al-Khalidi who tried unsuccessfully to work out an agreement between Arabs and the Zionist movement warned the Zionists with the following statement, "Be very careful, Messieurs Zionists, governments disappear, but peoples remain. The Jewish immigrants came to Palestine believing it to be a desolate, sparsely inhabited country. They were too busy with their own business and too ignorant of Arabic to notice what was going on around them. Since it was the Turks who ruled Palestine, they turned all their attention toward the Turks. This did not make them popular with the Arabs" (Neville Mandel, "Chapters of Arab-Jewish Diplomacy 1918-1922").
            • Re: Jewish Praise for Article

              Mon, January 14, 2008 - 4:03 PM
              <<1968? Wow, you really haven't looked at this question at all have you Brent?

              Palestine was in existence as a recognized territory of the Ottoman Empire long before British control and even before the beginnings of Jewish colonization by the Zionist movement. It was later the name of the British colony. >>


              I'm not talking about the British mandate Palestine, but "Palestinian" as a national or ethnic identity simply did not exist. If you are suggesting otherwise you're sadly delusional.
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: Jewish Praise for Article

            Mon, January 14, 2008 - 3:52 PM
            Brent falsely claims, "The term "palestinian" doesn't come into existence until at least 1968."
            1968? Wow, you really haven't looked at this question at all have you Brent?

            Palestine was in existence as a recognized territory of the Ottoman Empire long before British control and even before the beginnings of Jewish colonization by the Zionist movement. It was later the name of the British colony.

            These inhabitants of the region also had Arab nationalist sentiments that opposed the control of the Ottoman Empire before the creation of the Zionist State and have since opposed many of the U.S., French, and British imposed kings, crown princes, emirs, sheiks, etc. that Zionists like to claim represent the aspirations of the Arab people.

            Your attempt to deny a people of even the name of their nationality and homeland is consistent with an ideology that denies an entire people of the right to their homeland. The fact that bloody repression and horrible discrimination has driven the majority of Palestinians from large parts of their homeland without the right of return is not enough. The Zionist movement wants to wipe away the rightful name of the land they have conquered by re-writing history and denying there ever was a Palestine.

            From its beginnings in the eighteen hundreds the Zionist movement had little concern for the Arab inhabitants of the Palestinian land they would settle. Instead, they appealed to imperialist powers as potential allies against the Arab people in setting up their Zionist state. For example, Zionist leader T. Herzl stated around 1897: "If his majesty the Sultan were to give us Palestine, we could undertake to regulate Turkey's finances. For Europe, we would constitute a bulwark against Asia down there; we would be the advance post of civilization against barbarism. As a neutral state, we would remain in constant touch with all of Europe, which would guarantee our existence" (Rodinson, "Israel a Colonial Settler State?").

            By being “neutral”, Herzl is obviously referring to the Zionist dealings with powers of Europe, and not to the colonial "barbarians" already in and around the land he would settle and conquer.

            An Arab leader in Jerusalem named Nassif Bey al-Khalidi who tried unsuccessfully to work out an agreement between Arabs and the Zionist movement warned the Zionists with the following statement, "Be very careful, Messieurs Zionists, governments disappear, but peoples remain. The Jewish immigrants came to Palestine believing it to be a desolate, sparsely inhabited country. They were too busy with their own business and too ignorant of Arabic to notice what was going on around them. Since it was the Turks who ruled Palestine, they turned all their attention toward the Turks. This did not make them popular with the Arabs" (Neville Mandel, "Chapters of Arab-Jewish Diplomacy 1918-1922").
  • Hamas is run by Israel, actually Hamas is the cannanite jews. Read The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. It was written over 100 years ago by the cannanite jews, which Jesus said in John 8:44 their father is the serpent Lucifer the devil. The jew will kill their own. As a matter of fact the ones that kill are not jews, they are lucifer's seed line of demons. They do not want us to know this. That is why the NIV Fagit bible is in the private, known by some, jewish masonic religious so called churches today. The niv is a watered down version of truth. There are many scriptures missing from it, that is in the KJV. I must say that the KJV has some flaws also. GOD, LORD JESUS, HOLY SPIRIT, JOHN 1:1 would never lead his people into temptations. Like the passage (Lead us not into temptation). It reads in the Aramic BIBLE (Keep us from falling into temptation). When we have JESUS in our heart, he will show us things we know not. Why ask him, lead us not, when we know in time, that God- JESUS does not tempt. Little minds listen to the wolves in sheep clothings. Peace ,joy, love, is what vomites out of their serpentie mouths. A pastor has no father in heaven. Proverbs 1:15 is violated because of the 501-3C CONTRACT with the uass government. All bastard pastors preach milk. If they preach heavy meat they will be fired from the jewish masonic temple church 501-3C. They will not discuss the communications by the masonic jewish cannanite signals Proverb 6:13. Facts hurt, Truth hurts, knowledge will kill the tares. So mote it be !
  • Unsu...
     
    I just got a letter asking for recomendations on further reading. The following letter posted in response to my article at:

    www.indybay.org/newsitems/...8472076.php

    has reading recomendations I would make as well:

    This appears to be Steve Argue's best writing yet. His patience in researching and writing these details is amazing. Contrary to the illusion promoted by the pro-Israel idiot above, Tia, Ben-Gurion was a bloodthirsty Arab killer who would have made Hitler proud. This is described with page cites from Ben-Gurion's diary, in the outstanding history of the US military base to protect US oil profits in the Middle East, Israel, in a book by Ilan Pappe,
    The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine (2006) Oneworld Publications, ISBN 978-1-85168-555-4

    The January-February 2008 issue of International Socialist Review, at
    www.isreview.org/issues/57...appe.shtml
    has a good review of Pappe's book by Mostafa Omar that highlights the crimes against humanity perpetrated by David Ben Gurion (1886-1973), the first prime minister of the US military puppet state, Israel.

    It is also well known and proudly advertised that Israel is a racist, theocratic, anti-women militaristic state, the latest insult being "Jews only" roads. Israel is a good example of why we say all nationalism is reactionary. And of course, all religion is superstition. The religion is a cover for being a cat's paw of US imperialism, all to the detriment of the Jewish and Arab workingclass, both of whom are Semites.

    For anyone who wants further reading, including but not limited to Nazi GermanyZionist collaboration, which continues today as Nazi USA-Zionist collaboration, please see:


    Israel-Palestine on Record by Howard Friel and Richard Falk
    (2007) Verso, ISBN 978-1-84467-109-0 (Contains eyewitness testimony for 2000 to 2006 of Israeli destruction of Palestinians homes and the horrors of daily life in Occupied Palestine due to daily Israeli terrorism, all paid for with $6 billion US tax dollars annually, making Israel the 4th largest military gang in the world).

    Zionism in the Age of Dictators by Lenni Brenner at
    www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/

    The Iron Wall by Lenni Brenner at
    www.marxists.de/middleast/ironwall/

    The Hidden History of Zionism by Ralph Schoenman at
    www.marxists.de/middleast/schoenman/

    www.normanfinkelstein.com/

    51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis edited by Lenni Brenner
    (2002) Barricade Books, New Jersey, ISBN 1-56980-235-1

    The Transfer Agreement by Edwin Black
    (1984, 2001) Carroll & Graf, NY, ISBN 0-7867-0841-7

    The Third Reich and the Palestine Question by Francis Nicosia
    (1985) University of Texas Press, ISBN 0-292-72731-3
    www.isreview.org/issues/57/rev-papp...
    • This world is bigger than whats happening in Jerusalem. Its a big life we are dealing with. So what if the arabs want isreal gone, it means nothing to me. So what. Most of Europe don't care, if it wasn't for your big brother the US you wouldn' t even exist. Don't place so much importance on the middle east, it don't exist. I don't care. I live here. Nothing else matters. I wish the Jews and Catholics would stop playing me.
      • Unsu...
         
        ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

        Brian says, "Don't place so much importance on the middle east, it don't exist."

        ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

        "I wish the Jews and Catholics would stop playing me."

        ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

        I'd ask, but after that, I know I won't care for his answer.

Recent topics in "! * POLITICS * !"