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(1) Twice as many Democrats voted in Florida and Michigan as in Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina combined.
(2) More Democrats voted in Florida alone than in IA, NH, NV and SC combined.
(3) The record turnout in the Florida Democratic primary exceeded the previous record by almost half a million votes.
(4) Clinton received over 100,000 more votes than McCain in Florida.
(5) The final decision on how Florida and Michigan will be represented at the nominating convention is up to the delegates at the convention.
(6) Florida is the 4th largest state and Michigan is the 8th largest. Together they have 44 electoral votes - over 16% of the 270 votes needed to win the presidency.
(7) The people who are most interested in seeing to it that Florida and Michigan are represented at the nominating convention are, of course, the Democrats of those states.
(8) Everyone played by the same rules.
(9) Democrats in Florida and Michigan have voted - their votes should count. Everyone's vote should count.
(2) More Democrats voted in Florida alone than in IA, NH, NV and SC combined.
(3) The record turnout in the Florida Democratic primary exceeded the previous record by almost half a million votes.
(4) Clinton received over 100,000 more votes than McCain in Florida.
(5) The final decision on how Florida and Michigan will be represented at the nominating convention is up to the delegates at the convention.
(6) Florida is the 4th largest state and Michigan is the 8th largest. Together they have 44 electoral votes - over 16% of the 270 votes needed to win the presidency.
(7) The people who are most interested in seeing to it that Florida and Michigan are represented at the nominating convention are, of course, the Democrats of those states.
(8) Everyone played by the same rules.
(9) Democrats in Florida and Michigan have voted - their votes should count. Everyone's vote should count.
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Re: Florida and Michigan - the facts
Thu, January 31, 2008 - 8:19 AM> (9) Democrats in Florida and Michigan have voted - their votes should count. Everyone's vote should count.
If they didn't go against the party and leapfrog their primaries earlier, this would not have been a problem.
What makes it worse, is that Michigan and Florida are already way over-represented in presidential campaigns. They
are both battleground states that get way more attention than any other state. Michigan gets pandered for the auto industry, and Florida gets pandered for the anti-Castro Cubans.
I am honestly pissed at Clinton for suddenly saying "Oh yeah, even though we said we wouldn't, we should not count your delegates, seeing how I won them". Defiantly witnessing Clinton's dark side.
-troy -
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Re: Florida and Michigan - the facts
Thu, January 31, 2008 - 8:30 AM>> I am honestly pissed at Clinton for suddenly saying .... <<
Clinton voluntarily agreed to the rules laid down by the Party - and she followed them. But the rules allow (in fact, they require) that the Credentials Committee at the Convention will have the final say. Everyone has known that all along - and anyone who thought that Florida and Michigan could just be ignored is a moron.
If by Clinton's "dark side" you mean her ability to play hard-ball - then that is something that any President needs to have in large quantities.
2.3 million Democrats voted in Florida and Michigan. Their votes should count. I am reasonably optimistic that their votes WILL count. -
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Re: Florida and Michigan - the facts
Thu, January 31, 2008 - 4:15 PM<If by Clinton's "dark side" you mean her ability to play hard-ball - then that is something that any President needs to have in large quantities.>
Fuck yeah. I agree wholeheartedly.
I find it so odd that people will get upset at a candidate for working hard to get elected. That's what I want my candidate to do - they have to work hard, short of any real ugly tricks. They should run a good, clean campaign, but go to that edge.
We're talking about the fucking presidency here - not some neighborhood group or Myspace group or something.
<he toured Florida for "Charity" reasons>
Seems like the smart thing to do. She wants to win Florida in the general, so......it makes sense to go there and rally the troops. Another smart move by Clinton.
<Obama has absolutely no business being President if he can't figure out some way to support the representation of Florida and Michigan in his own party's convention.>
No shit. Like the republicans will not play hard ball? Give me a break. He's not a kid, so he should not whine when things do not go his way. Well, perhaps that's a bit rough, but I don't want to hear adults complaining about things that adults should be able to deal with.
<By the way, the good folks of Florida and Michigan still get to vote in November.>
True, Mendy - and Clinton has the edge there now more than ever, because she went there. Smart politics.
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Re: Florida and Michigan - the facts
Thu, January 31, 2008 - 8:31 AMClinton won Florida because the other candidates followed the pledge to stay out of Florida and she did not. Instead she toured Florida for "Charity" reasons therefore proving people will vote for anyone that pays them enough too.
Obama got 33% of the vote in a state he never actually stepped foot in. Edwards also got votes.
Im still for Obama. At least he hasnt attacked media protected by the free speech. -
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Unsu...
Re: Florida and Michigan - the facts
Thu, January 31, 2008 - 8:45 AM>>>>>>>>Democrats in Florida and Michigan have voted - their votes should count. Everyone's vote should count. <<<<<<
There votes were counted. We know that because you know the number. But the delegates will not be seated for reasons made clear to *all* candidates *long* before a single vote was cast. Further, *all* candidates agreed to these rules. You can't change the rules in the middle of the game. -
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Re: Florida and Michigan - the facts
Thu, January 31, 2008 - 8:48 AM>>There votes were counted.<<
Is there anywhere votes weren't counted?
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Re: Florida and Michigan - the facts
Fri, February 1, 2008 - 8:12 AM*****************There votes were counted. We know that because you know the number. But the delegates will not be seated for reasons made clear to *all* candidates *long* before a single vote was cast. Further, *all* candidates agreed to these rules. You can't change the rules in the middle of the game.***********
No their votes were tallied but counted for little more than a hollow victory. It wasn't phyrric for sure it may have even help her some.
I think however that the dems have fucked themselves. They first nullify the rights of the people establishing what I think is a "equal protection" problem worse than they did in FL the last time.
the denied the people of those states the right to vote directly for the candidate of their choice in the primaries. They did it for no reason other than they were off put that the primary dates were moved.
uspolitics.tribe.net/thread/...b8613f26
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Re: Florida and Michigan - the facts
Thu, January 31, 2008 - 9:06 AM>> Clinton won Florida because the other candidates followed the pledge... <<
Obama must be both naive and stupid. Naive for sitting on his hands and "following the rules" - while Clinton out-foxed him (while also "following the rules"!) in Michigan and Florida. And stupid for thinking it is a good idea to disenfranchise the Democratic primary voters in two states crucial to any Democrats chances of winning.
Obama has absolutely no business being President if he can't figure out some way to support the representation of Florida and Michigan in his own party's convention. -
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Re: Florida and Michigan - the facts
Thu, January 31, 2008 - 9:20 AM
I still think the states MUST be punished for their leapfrogging. Otherwise, where will it end? Will we be voting in
primaries a full year before the general? it is already so stupid.
Their delegates need to be ignored.
-troy -
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Re: Florida and Michigan - the facts
Thu, January 31, 2008 - 9:33 AMThere is a difference between punishing state political parties but not including their counts in the official delegate counts, and flat out pretending that those who took the time to vote do not count, as Obama has done. For a man who is supposed to be the new voice for change, he sounds like a lot like the old guard.
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Re: Florida and Michigan - the facts
Thu, January 31, 2008 - 4:03 PMIt's pretty simple. Florida and Michigan broke the rules, so they have to pay the price. Cornelius, do you have a problem with that.
By the way, the good folks of Florida and Michigan still get to vote in November. -
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Re: Florida and Michigan - the facts
Fri, February 1, 2008 - 4:34 AM>> It's pretty simple. Florida and Michigan broke the rules, so they have to pay the price. Cornelius, do you have a problem with that. <<
The DNC can reverse its decision - do you have a problem with that fact?
The Convention itself has the power to rule on who gets "credentialed" - do you have a problem with that?
I'll repeat - anyone who thought this was a "done deal" just isn't thinking straight. It is inconceivable that there will be no Florida or Michigan delegation at the Democratic convention. -
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Re: Florida and Michigan - the facts
Fri, February 1, 2008 - 7:57 AM"Obama must be both naive and stupid. Naive for sitting on his hands and "following the rules" - while Clinton out-foxed him (while also "following the rules"!) in Michigan and Florida. And stupid for thinking it is a good idea to disenfranchise the Democratic primary voters in two states crucial to any Democrats chances of winning. "
These are Bush style tactics. Both Obama ,Clinton, and Edwards pledged not to campaign in those states. Only one person broke the rules. In the end it wont matter. Clinton will get the nomination because the Republicans want her too. Clinton will win because we are all Neocon Bitches. Thats really what you are saying Corn.... -
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Re: Florida and Michigan - the facts
Fri, February 1, 2008 - 8:19 AM>> Only one person broke the rules. <<
Both Obama and Clinton followed the rules - and Obama got pwned. The people who broke the rules were the Democrats in Florida and Michigan - who defied the Democratic National Committee. I say good for them.
Both Clinton and Obama are now supporting the positions that benefits their own campaign. But Obama ends up siding with the DNC Rules Committee, while Clinton ends up siding with 2.3 million rank-and-file Democrats in two key states. -
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Re: Florida and Michigan - the facts
Fri, February 1, 2008 - 1:33 PM*************Both Clinton and Obama are now supporting the positions that benefits their own campaign. But Obama ends up siding with the DNC Rules Committee, while Clinton ends up siding with 2.3 million rank-and-file Democrats in two key states.*************
Oh please dear god let her do it let her do it~!!
I'd much rather Clinton take the nomination anyway. How much sweeter if the whore split the party in doing it? -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Florida and Michigan - the facts
Fri, February 1, 2008 - 1:42 PM>> How much sweeter if the whore split the party in doing it? <<
Excellent work, Comrade! It worked in New Hampshire - it will work on Super Tuesday - it will work in November. I am sending you this message in private - please destroy it as soon as you receive it. Also, your check from the RRFFC will have a little something extra in it this month if you keep up the good work.
Always remember Comrade, we are very close to victory now. We must watch every move, every step! -
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Re: Florida and Michigan - the facts
Fri, February 1, 2008 - 2:04 PMI am often flabberghasted that in spite of all the things you know about these people that you still can tolerate them. Hells bells just the stuff I've posted should turn you from them.
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